Hawking Searching For Africa's Einsteins

nuke-alwin writes "Stephen Hawking has traveled to South Africa in search of Africa's Einsteins. The project will create Africa's first post-graduate center for math and physics. The British government has unfortunately decided not to back the project, which is hoping to fight poverty by identifying the kind of talent that can create wealth." Neil Turok is deeply involved as well; he was recently named to head the Perimeter Institute in Canada, whose server we brought to its knees this morning.

Brain drain, ver 0.1

[CogDissident]

So, if these math geniuses get a degree there, whats to keep them from just moving out of country? Nothing? Honestly, if I were born in an absolutely impoverished country, and ended up being a genius and getting a graduate degree in mathematics, I'm sure I'd hop on the first chance at a big corporate job in some other country.

Remind me again...

[Facetious]

Where did Einstein do his post-graduate work?

Watson

[philspear]

Turok and Hawking hope that Aimss students will help to overturn the negative stereotypes of Africa that were recently given expression by James Watson, the co-discoverer of DNA.

Not to go off on a tangent, but I wouldn't call Watson the "co-discovererer of DNA," for two reasons.

1. My understanding of research history was that DNA was discovered long before, and also long before was identified as the genetic material.
2. He likely didn't even co-discover the STRUCTURE of DNA so much as steal credit for that from Rosalind Franklin and Raymond Gosling.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they're not tools. I know many Indian (real India) and Chinese nationals who plan to move back to their "impoverished" countries to work and play.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[yodleboy]

that may be true, but i've notice that a lot of smart, wealthy successful people eventually "go home" in some sense, not always physically, of course. They may donate to local causes, invest, become involved in politics or advocacy. whatever they do, they probably would not have been able without opportunities like this.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[edisrafeht]

Whether they go back home or not is not as important as providing the opportunity for these gifted individuals. They may still contribute something to the world, regardless of their location.

Re:Einstein didn't create much wealth

[sm62704]

Some of us prize knowledgs and wisdom far more than money. Not everyone worships at the alter af mammon.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[WaltBusterkeys]

i've notice[d] that a lot of smart, wealthy successful people

And how many of those wealthy successful people were mathematicians and physicists? Smart, certainly. But wealthy?

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[nxsty]

Perhaps you'd feel some kind of loyalty to the country where you where born? If I where in that situation I'd probably try to do something to help the country rather than just leave.

Small Pool of Healthy

[Tablizer]

I doubt he will find much because it is such an undernourished and politically unstable place on the whole. You likely need a large population of relatively healthy people in order to produce sufficient geniuses. Poorly-fed brains with too few toys are not likely to end up at the top. Einstein traced his thought process back to a compass that his dad gave him.

If only say 10 percent of Africa's population fits that bill, then you'd get about 10% of the hits compared to a similar population of mostly middle-class countries. This is not being racist, but merely observing the health of Africa's population as it is.
     

Re:Einstein is over-rated

[sm62704]

Race has nothing to do with it. Look at yourself; dumb as a box of rocks.

Put any kid of any race (say, your kid) in a third world country with little food, no medical care, and have unlearned people raise him, and don't send him to school, and he'll be just like the native Africans.

Take one of those African kids and raise him in an enlightened industrial society and he'll excel as much as anyone. It isn't about self esteem, it's about quality of life.

As to your own stupidity, racism is a tool of the rich to keep everyone else at each others' throats so they won't notice who's really using and abusing them, tool.

Re:The purpose?

[PikachuMolester2007]

Not quite sure why people assume all of the Africa is starving or lacks critical infrastructure. Take a look at the pictures on the wikipedia entry for Johannesburg, for comparison sake. There are definitely places in Africa where physicists, engineers and scientists of all types can, and are, earning a decent living.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[Nibbler999]

Maybe in western countries, but in less advantaged places people have the opinion that their country has not done anything to help them so they owe it nothing.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[CogDissident]

Not as much of a win as keeping them in-country the entire time. The countries still loose out overall. They're starting with college degrees already, and these people could help significantly by being engineers and such in their home countries.

Honestly, I don't begrudge them wanting better for themselves and their family if they send money home (would do the same myself), I'm just looking at it from a national perspective.

Re:The purpose?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, 150 year old physics. Certainly no one needs to worry about 11 dimensional strings when building a fucking toilet. Use your noodle.

Re:Einstein didn't create much wealth

[megaditto]

Unfortunately, theoretical physics is not very practical and therefore does not create much wealth.

You are kidding, right?

I don't even know where to begin, but here are some counterexamples of theoretical physics being quite practical: nuclear fission reactors, fusion weapons, transistors/microchips, computers, internet, TVs, sattelites/GPS, cell phones and wireless comms, MRI and PET scans, electron microscopy, LASERs...

See, I think you are making the same mistake of underestimating theoretical physics as the Germans did in the 1930s...

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[Cairnarvon]

I'm sure the family you leave behind in said poverty would love you for it, too. Nobody grows up in a vacuum.

This is to build wealth in Africa?

[DesScorp]

Look, I'm all for helping Africa get great colleges and postgrad institutions. It's a good thing, and certainly can't hurt. But if these people think that a postgrad center for math and physics is going to help pump great wealth into Africa, I'm afraid they'll be dissapointed. They'd be better off building business and engineering institutes. People like Patrice Motsepe [forbes.com] will do far more to bring wealth to Africa than someone like Hawking.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[JaredOfEuropa]

So, if these math geniuses get a degree there, whats to keep them from just moving out of country? Nothing? Honestly, if I were born in an absolutely impoverished country, and ended up being a genius and getting a graduate degree in mathematics, I'm sure I'd hop on the first chance at a big corporate job in some other country.

Would you? Perhaps for a while; a good many graduates from both first and third world countries fancy the idea of working abroad for a while. But not many people have the blood to permanently settle somewhere else.

Also remember that as a good scientist in the employ of a western corporation, you may make a decent income in "the west", but at home you'll live like a king. I know a few western expats who have trouble returning to their own wealthy countries for just that reason.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Because -as hard as it may be to believe this for you- some people actually have an attachment to their birth country.

Why ? Because big corporate jobs are lonely, strange and unfulfilling. A wife and family in your birth country is what most prefer.

And some people have morals and see that as a chance to give back.

Or they get older and take a teaching position in their home country.

Lots of reasons.

Nice idea but not going to make any real change.

[kiatoa]

It is kind of like trying to cure a broken leg with antibiotics. You might need the antibiotics but you'd really better get a splint on there first.

I.e. start by identifying the **real** root cause and work on that.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[k33l0r]

Actually a lot of people living in poorer countries would like to help their own country. In fact a lot of the foreign students studying with me (here in Finland) ultimately wish to return to their home countries.

Just 'cause you're a selfish bastard, doesn't mean that everybody else is.

What's more, most of the big corps are eager to get to the up and coming markets of developing nations.

Re:The purpose?

[turgid]

I leave the obvious conclusion as an exercise for the reader.

So you [I assume you by the tone of your post] oppress and exploit a certain group of society for a century and are surprised what happens when the lid finally gets blown off?

Re:The purpose?

[Deadplant]

sooo, British physicists should go to Africa and teach farming? .... or just stay put and shut up?

We can all contribute with our own skills.

The idea here is not to create an economic effect. That is secondary.

The point of the project is to find and empower the brilliant potential mathematicians and physicists in this poorly served region. The purpose of finding and empowering these people is to empower the human race and to advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.

Re:Small Pool of Healthy

[crazybit]

Many exceptional athletes: soccer players (Didier Drogba), marathon runners, sprint runners, long distance jumpers, etc. come from Africa.

If their eating habits didn't stop them from becoming champions, why should the same food affect possible geniuses?

Re:With thugs like Mugabe and nuts like Mbeki

[Khaed]

I agree that Mugabe and the like need to go, and so do the voters in Zimbabwe, but I don't know that population control is necessary. There are population issues in China and India, as well, and they manage to avoid the same sort of hell that a lot of Africa is in.

Education, infrastructure, and Mugabe hanging by his feet like a piñata would be a good start.

Re:Einstein didn't create much wealth

[bitrex]

Something like: "Theoretical physicists turn money into ideas. Engineers turn ideas into money."

Re:This is to build wealth in Africa?

[quantaman]

Look, I'm all for helping Africa get great colleges and postgrad institutions. It's a good thing, and certainly can't hurt. But if these people think that a postgrad center for math and physics is going to help pump great wealth into Africa, I'm afraid they'll be dissapointed. They'd be better off building business and engineering institutes. People like Patrice Motsepe will do far more to bring wealth to Africa than someone like Hawking.

Certainly a postgraduate institution alone won't solve all the problems but I do think it will help more than you expect.

I suspect one thing sorely missing in a lot of Africa right now is pride. Political strife, poverty, and lack of education are common, it seems the only thing African nations can occasionally succeed at on a world stage is athletics.

If they do get a real legitimate world-class research institution I think it gives two main effects. First is pride, they see an African research institution with African scientists young kids now have a good intellectual role model to strive for. They won't be world leading, that will probably take a long time, but if they can really participate on the world stage I think that's a huge boon for African pride.

Second you get a group of actual scientific authorities who are able to influence public policy. Right now I don't know if you have a well established and intellectually rigorous set of African academic institutions available to educate the public. Creating one could very well help combat misconceptions about a lot of scientific concepts and diseases like AIDS.

Re:Einstein is over-rated

[TerranFury]

If a black man did something horrible to you or your family, you have my sympathies.

A member of my family was beaten to death by a black man in the street. It happened before I was born. Routine mugging gone awry. She spent the rest of her "life" in pain and a vegetative state. It was the woman who raised my mother.

I don't blame race. I blame human nature. Most people of any color are just vicious animals running on fear and greed and desperation.

But I like to think -- or, I hope -- that I am a man and not a beast. And I believe that to be this I need, constantly, to overcome the paranoia that would make me a fearful animal and not a man. I believe abject racism is just one more form of animal paranoia.

I do not believe in a utopia where race does not matter. I learned that again in college, and it was my saddest lesson. You see, racist Chinese people say the same things about white men that you say about blacks -- that they (we) are fetishists, perverts, rapists, deviants, and worse. I learned this the hard way when, for six months, I dated a nice and good-looking girl from Shanghai. People said nasty things, whispered snide comments -- particularly two kinds of people: (1) uneducated whites, and (2) racist Chinese people. My mind's eye saw the caricature of the racist white man -- sitting on his front porch, spitting tobacco, and saying, "Watch out! Them watermelon-eating niggers take our women!" morphing into a Chinese student who was pointing at me, and the "nigger" becoming a stereotyped "Westerner" with my face. She was a nice girl, and though we did not have enough in common to continue the relationship -- our value systems were moving rapidly apart, and it became more and more clear that we, in basic philosophy, wanted very different things -- we certainly did not deserve the kind of comments we received. It was insulting to me and dehumanizing to her: The assumption by her "own people" seemed to be that she could not possibly be appealing as a human being, that the only reason anyone could want to date her was that he were sick, that he were some kind of twisted pervert and that the only appealing quality she could possibly have was the ethnicity she happened to come from. She had warned me when we started that people would say these things, and I had replied naively that it didn't matter, but I guess in fact I had really thought it wouldn't happen enough that it could matter. I had to learn the hard way that this wasn't true. It was severely disillusioning.

I do not want to be like those people who spoke insults and acid. I do not believe in utopia, but I reject their petty tribalism, and I am a better man than they were.

Are you? Are you a better man? A thinking, reasoning being with thoughts as well as instincts? Or are you a beast yourself?

I'm not asking you to change your mind immediately. I'm not telling you to discard what you think just because people call it "racism:" having a name for an idea and saying "it's bad" doesn't by itself mean it's wrong. I'm just asking you to moderate your thoughts for a bit, to let the man overcome the beast. Because I think -- or hope -- that in time and with thoughtfulness, you will conclude differently than you do now -- and I don't think bitterness is a very good route to peace for society, or to happiness for yourself.

Cheers.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[Original Replica]

They are only more of an asset to their country by staying home, if the countries problems can be solved with math. Brilliant engineering isn't going to make Darfur a good place to live. Ethiopia's famines are not brought on by a lack of agricultural knowledge. Proving corruption mathematically isn't going to make corrupt government officials suddenly altruistic.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[ppanon]

The philanthropy is also just a smart move. If you've acquired a lot of riches and move into an impoverished area, you'll be a big target for any of the less ethical elements of the population. If you've spread enough of your money around in good works in your neighbourhood, then you'll have acquired a good reputation. People will look more favourably on you and will be more likely to provide support if you become a target of criminal elements. It's a lot harder for a criminal to portray himself as Robin Hood when he targets your belongings if you already do good works to help those poorer than you.

Now I'm not trying to belittle you or say that's the sole reason why you would be performing such deeds; I'm sure you're also motivated by altruistic empathy for those in your village. But it doesn't hurt either.

BTW, what is the state of the caste system in your area? Will all population members have equal access? If there is still caste stratification, have you made any efforts to liberalize people's attitudes? I think that's another area where returning expatriates could have a big influence.

Re:Remind me again...

[ppanon]

He didn't. He graduated with a bachelor's degree in physics from ETH Zurich. But so what if he didn't have a graduate degree?

It was 1900, and most of what was known then about about physics (and much that wasn't known then) is now taught in the first three years of bachelor's in physics. The field has advanced substantially since, so that you now need to learn more than what's in an undergraduate curriculum before you reach the bounds of knowledge and can add to it. Such was not the case in 1900.

Maybe Hawking's concern is that the world could be missing out on the skills of another Srinivasa Ramanujan. That said, from the Wikipedia article, it appears that Ramanujan was Brahmin caste and thus had educational opportunities not available to most people in India.

Also, mathematical ability at that level seems to be the combination of a rare gift of aptitude with a certain intensity to cultivate and develop it. It's possible that we in the first world have - for the most part - become too rich, contented, and easily distracted to dedicate ourselves to that pursuit.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[corbettw]

Not as much of a win as keeping them in-country the entire time.

Except that impoverished countries are missing another critical element to escaping poverty: capital. When their best and brightest go forth and earn lots of money, then either send it home or come back, it acts as a catalyst that can fuel further development.

Even in countries with lots of natural resources (Nigeria, for example), there's very little if any capital floating around. You can't expect someone to create a multi-billion dollar company from scratch.

Re:Go ahead, mod me troll and flamebait

[WrongMonkey]

DNA is a program. It is a program that has features (and bugs) that vary in different regions. These features cluster together, and those larger clusters we call "race".

You've already failed to demonstrate intelligence in your first paragraph. Definitions of race have next to nothing to do with "clustering" of genetics. As a very applicable example, Africa has extremely high genetic diversity compared to other human populations. [psu.edu]

Is there a gene for intelligence? I don't know. But it's beyond ludicrous to suggest that a gene for intelligence has anything to do with the genes for skin color. Any attempt to justify your brand of racism through genetics has fallen flat on its face.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[eennaarbrak]

O FFS, using extreme examples like Sierra Leone to generalize about Africa is just ridiculous. I live in South Africa, and there are a lot of bright people here, both South Africans and from other African countries. We need an initiative like this - if some of the people choose to leave with their skills, so be it, but many will choose to stay and apply their knowledge here. With your reasoning: Maybe the USA should stop building universities, because we all know Noth American countries like Nicaragua and Honduras are dirt poor and just a waste of any attempt at excellence.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

[LurkerXD]

But that brings another point - having a more educated populace tends to help with governmental problems as well. The reason being, smarter people are in a lot better equipped to notice and speak out when their government is screwing them. Also, assuming they do go elsewhere to make their fortunes, they then have financial resources to potentially do something about the issue.

Re:Einstein didn't create much wealth

[eennaarbrak]

South Africa is a developing country - and I mean developing as in development is taking place, not as in third world backwards etc. There is a lot of well paying work here for people with maths and science. Engineers are also in short supply. A bright African student, with otherwise no hope of advancing his education in maths/science, will jump at an opportunity to attend a local center of excellence, get an education, and apply for one of these jobs. And not everyone is aiming for the Einstein level of excellence when it comes to scientific career - many people (most, in fact), would settle for a secure, well paying, satisfying job.

Re:The purpose?

[eennaarbrak]

Jeeze, you made me laugh! "..severely lacking in agriculture?". Very good one.

South Africa doesn't need agriculture (if you're in Europe, go to the local fruit store and count the number of fruit imported from SA. Here's a hint to find them - they're usually the biggest, best ones). The infrastructure is here. We need skills to enable us to grow the economy. Skills like maths and science - corporations here pay good money for scientific skills, in quality of life terms probably better than Europe and the USA. You may argue that you were talking about the rest of Africa - fact is, economic growth has to start from somewhere.

Re:The purpose?

[eennaarbrak]

I was born and lived in Johannesburg all my life. We don't need international researchers (they are welcome, of course) - we need local people with skills that can be applied to grow the economy. And there is plenty of work here for mathematicians and physicists (and engineers, and software developers). The infrastructure in SA is well developed, we need skilled people to grow it. The crime problem still exists, but I honestly think calling JHB the most dangerous city in the world is a bit excessive. I have seen more street muggings in Paris than in the streets here.

Re:Go ahead, mod me troll and flamebait

[Viol8]

You're making the age old mistake of assuming that genetic diversity somehow precludes common traits arrising - such as similar skin colour, nose shape, hair type - whenb clearly it doesnt. Ergo theres no reason to presume it would preclude a lower average IQ than other areas in the world.

Btw , calling someone racist simply because you don't happen to like their views that different races may be different is pathetically childish, though standard tactics for people of the right-on persuation.

The Premise is Incorrect

[geekbeater]

Wealth has never been created by geniuses per se. Unless they have two other elements that need to exist. Extreme motivation, and the opportunity for capitalism. Most of Africa is controlled by socialist / communist governments, and never in the history of the world has socialism built and promoted wealth. The countries with the most freedoms, owning property, basic human rights, etc. are the wealthiest nations. Don't give me "China" either. Per capita they are a third world country. The government controls who has the wealth, and only if it benefits the "state". If Hawking wants to promote the creation of wealth in Africa, he should be there promoting freedom. Worked for us over 200 yrs ago.

Doomed to Failure

[MSTCrow5429]

Einstein was a Jew. Jews have a natural tendency towards high IQ due to environmental variables that encouraged endogamy and a culture that highly prized intellectual and educational achievement. Africans, unfortunately, are not known for high IQs, and the environmental variables that would give rise to high IQs are not in place. It would take thousands of years of natural eugenics, as with Jews, to create an outcome where an African Einstein is within the realm of possibility. You cannot take a person and mold them into something else by tossing them into a school. You cannot rewire their brains to such an extent. It would be better to simply seek out the most intelligent Africans you can find, and see how far they can go, without burdening them with a near impossible goal for anyone, of any race.