Why the Widening Gender Gap In Computer Science? 1563
ruheling writes "From yesterday's New York Times: ' What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science?' In many US universities, over the past decade, there has been deliberate effort to integrate and encourage women and girls to get more involved in the 'hard' sciences, engineering, and math. However, instead of the proportion of women to men increasing, in Computer Science the opposite is actually true. Specifically, in 2001-2, only 28 percent of all undergraduate degrees in computer science went to women. Now many computer science departments report that women now make up less than 10 percent of the newest undergraduates. What's going on here, folks?"
Re:Widening gap in first posts (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, from today's Boston Globe: Hunt is on for more men to lead classrooms [boston.com].
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately, the article mentions that in the 80s, female enrollment in CS was closer to parity with males. Something has changed since then and I doubt it's biological.
Anecdotal Analysis, coming right up! (Score:3, Informative)
Let's be honest with ourselves: the life of a coder is one with a very solidly entrenched lifestyle of sleeplessness and caffeine addiction. Interpersonal relationships are stereotypically uncomfortable, and non-technical conversations are rare and usually involve the word "d20" and "hit points". I'm getting a bit extreme, but the point is there. Coding is nerdy. I've made my peace with that, and enjoy the lifestyle.
Out of the 60 or so engineers in my segment, 3 are female. That's a whopping 5%. Those three females are every bit as nerdy as the guys, and so they fit in well and are accorded respect and not treated any differently.
I can only surmise that there are fewer nerdy/geeky girls, and thus fewer female engineers. Based on life experience (anecdotal, I know) I would say this is due mostly to peer pressure from OTHER GIRLS when they are younger. Not saying guys don't contribute to this, but I think it's mostly same-sex peer pressure that drives females away from nerd-stereotypes.
Thoughts?
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Informative)
honestly, "stop being a creepy jerk" works well. Often women are made to doubt ourselves that what is going on is really wrong (thank you patriarchy for that one) and having someone agree with us that this person is being a jerk will go a long way.
course, that's just me.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Informative)
What's particularly puzzling is that the explanations for under-representation of women that were assembled back in 1991 applied to all technical fields. Yet women have achieved broad parity with men in almost every other technical pursuit. When all science and engineering fields are considered, the percentage of bachelor's degree recipients who are women has improved to 51 percent in 2004-5 from 39 percent in 1984-85, according to National Science Foundation surveys.
Sure seems that women are interested in Engineering, but something specific about CS is either not enticing or is repelling.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:5, Informative)
Ah the oft toted argument.
Problem is that even with infants only a few weeks old, if you test their attention span for different stimula then you'll find that little girls tend to be more interested in faces and will pay attention to them longer and little boys will tend to be more interested in things and pay attention to them longer.
Children are not empty vessels, sure you can beat them into the shape with enough force applied but not everything is due to outside influence.
Not all women are afraid... (Score:2, Informative)
Ok, I don't do programming, but I do networking for an ISP. I was one of i think 2 women that graduated in our class of around 30 ( I went to DeVry ). Most of the women even on campus were returning students or in one of the new health or HR classes, taking night classes. Needless to say, there were not many girls even on campus, let alone in each class. There were A LOT of creepy guys and yes they would occasionally make you nervous, but if the guys in your school creep you out, then how far are you really going to get in life after school?
I helped out with the Girls in Technology programs we hosted and a lot of the younger girls thought it was pretty cool after seeing what I do, but there is a lot more drive to go towards a medical field. It is still technology and harder than I was willing to take on. In fact, I enjoy working with the routers, switches and servers all day and being able to understand what my IT fiance has to say at the end of the day. The only part I don't like is having to deal with users who don't know the first thing about checking their own LAN and always think that the first answer is to blame the ISP.
Re:Widening gap in first posts (Score:5, Informative)
Men would be stupid to take a job in elementary education, all it takes is one kid saying that you "touched them" to ruin your life.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:4, Informative)
don't guys check for rings anymore?
We check its just that many women these days wear a decoy ring even if they aren't married. So we figured it's worth a shot.
I go to work to work not to pick up chicks but many guys I work with don't feel that way and they hit on any moderately attractive girl working there.
MOD parent up (Score:2, Informative)
I don't normally do that, but his example proves my point better than my post did.
One academic, or even a handful, are inevitably going to claim what GP claims, because the claim that "men have different interests than women" is seen as sexist, but more importantly to a scientist, it's not novel enough to justify research money.
However, if you are trying to prove something that is both observationally and logically against the grain, especially something that "proves" mean are "no different" than women, you're going to get money from the sky because the desire to prove mean are EXACTLY equal to women is a powerful motivation in academia.
I trust GP and his "source" as much as I'd trust anyone in a similar situation, that is, not at all.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:4, Informative)
Evolutionary biology isn't a science
What is it, then?
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:3, Informative)
Gallows humor isn't leaving something at the door, it's a mechanism for dealing with extremely tough situations.
Not the same thing as leaving it at the door... [wikipedia.org]
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Informative)
Palin supports teaching of creationism alongside evolution in biology classes in public schools.
She stated as such on live TV in 2006 during her gubernatorial race debates.
There was backpedaling of course, but the backpedaling itself made it clear she either doesn't know what science is, or doesn't know creationism isn't science.
Her record is full of such things, look them up yourself if you want to find them. It's not Slashdot's job to educate you about political failures and has-beens.
Confusing creationsim with science makes her a whack job. Doing so in a political debate on live TV makes it her POSITION to be a whack job.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:4, Informative)
One reason people can't (or at least shouldn't) "just accept" that "they don't think the same and have different interests" is that it is for the most part demonstrably untrue. For evidence, please see Janet S. Hyde's meta-analyses of thousands of sex/gender difference studies. Sometimes you can find mean differences that meet statistical significance, but when you look at the effect sizes, it becomes clear that the differences are too small to have practical significance.
I read Hyde's article in Science and I was very disappointed. She made broad, sweeping claims of equal abilities, but in the article she admitted that she didn't have any data on high-level mathematical abilities.
Science 25 July 2008:
Vol. 321. no. 5888, pp. 494 - 495
DOI: 10.1126/science.1160364
Education Forum ...
DIVERSITY:
Gender Similarities Characterize Math Performance
Janet S. Hyde,1* Sara M. Lindberg,1 Marcia C. Linn,2 Amy B. Ellis,3 Caroline C. Williams3
Today, with the gender gap erased in taking advanced math courses, does the gender gap remain in complex problem-solving? To answer this question, we coded test items from all states where tests were available, using a four-level depth of knowledge framework (15). Level 1 (recall) includes recall of facts and performing simple algorithms. Level 2 (skill/concept) items require students to make decisions about how to approach a problem and typically ask students to estimate or compare information. Level 3 (strategic thinking) includes complex cognitive demands that require students to reason, plan, and use evidence. Level 4 (extended thinking) items require complex reasoning over an extended period of time and require students to connect ideas within or across content areas as they develop one among alternate approaches. We computed the percentage of items at levels 3 or 4 for each state for each grade, as an index of the extent to which the test tapped complex problem-solving. The results were disappointing. For most states and most grade levels, none of the items were at levels 3 or 4. Therefore, it was impossible to determine whether there was a gender difference in performance at levels 3 and 4.
I would like to see women engaged in every kind of work without discrimination, and I would like to believe that women are equally capable in CS, engineering and everything else. But the evidence I've seen goes against it.
What convinced me was a study of boys who had been operated on at birth for exstrophy. That's a birth defect in which the bladder is not contained within the abdomen but is exposed on the surface. It was difficult to repair it and preserve male genitals, so male infants used to be "converted" to female and raised as girls. This was the ultimate natural experiment. Even though their male origins was kept a secret from them, they overwhelmingly assumed male interests, attitudes and behavior. This proves with as much evidence as we're likely to get that there is a strong genetic component to many male preferences. Engineering and computer science may be one of those preferences.
NEJM, 22 Jan 2004, 350(4):333-41. Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males With Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth, W.G. Reiner and J.P. Gearhart. 16 genetically male (XY) children had severe cloacal exstrophy including microphallus or phallic inadequacy (incidence 1/400,000). Following medical recommendation, 14 were surgically converted, including orchiectomy, and raised as female. "Parents were instructed to avoid revealing information on their child's sex to anyone at any time, especially to the subject, and were instructed that disclosure of such information might harm the subject's psychosexual development." Parents of 2 children refused surgery and raised children as male. All 16 were reassessed at ages 5-19. Subjects sorted themselves into 3 categories. (1) 5 were living as female (2) 3 had "unclear" sexual id
Re:Obvious.... (Score:5, Informative)
Yes you have actually missed something actually.
America, just like England or any country across the Atlantic, has subsets of culture.
The "fast food, celebrity [tabloid obsession], gas guzzling cars, and guns, [and god]" you speak of is the working class America. Especially southern and mid-western working class America. I believe in England this type of person would be called a scally or a chav.
The primarily middle class area in the west where I live is heavily populated by an entirely other subset of Americans that are educated, peace loving, atheist/agnostic, socialist minded, and environmentally conscious.
While we may not be wasting our congress persons time with debates on fox hunting, we are wasting their time with debates on flag burning.
The UK and America aren't all that different.
Scotland by the way is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. I look forward to returning someday. The food in Scotland has a lot in common with the American south (where the fattest Americans are) lard is not a seasoning, no matter how much the American South and Scotland may wish it so.
Math and Science background (Score:3, Informative)
An interesting "natural experiment" can be found in comparing international CS students to US CS students [cmu.edu]....
While most of the international women students come to Carnegie Mellon without an extensive knowledge of computers, they all have a high sense of self-efficacy in math. Several students told us that not until coming to the U.S. did they encounter the attitude that women are not suited for math and science. They told us that girls (if they were lucky enough to go to high school in the first place) pursue math and science at the same rate and with the same expectations as boys, at least through the high school level
Re:Obvious.... (Score:2, Informative)
There's a difference between a stereotype and a culture.
Women use Google, guys can, but don't (Score:5, Informative)
My wife and I have been married for 31 years. We met in college. She was a civil engineering major, I was a computer science major. She later changed her major to mechanical engineering when she learned that ME's are more widely employable than CEs. When we met she was a freshman and I was a senior.
I went on to get a masters degree, she took the classes for a master degree but spent the time she would have spent on a thesis getting ready for, and passing, the P.E. exam. She has had her stamp for a long time.
We are both now in out fifties. She gets calls several times a year offering her jobs. Some in the private sector, some in the public sector. People value her decades of experience. People look up to MEs with decades of experience and a professional certification.
I was laid off for the last time on my 49th birthday and have not been able to find a technical job since. It is hard to find a company that will believe that I actually have the experience I have. I can't tell you how many times I have had an interview where I have been challenged on my experience and even though I can prove every bit of it people just don't believe it. And, don't get me started on certification for computer people, compared to getting a PE certification in the computer world isn't even a bad joke. It is mostly just a con.
I went back to school and "retrained" as a teacher and I am now certified to teach CS in public schools and I work part time teaching people how to use a mouse. I haven't been able to find a full time teaching job because their aren't many of those and the competition for them is fierce. You see, I live in Austin, Texas and for about 10 years this is where IBM transfered entire divisions before they laid them off. There are literally thousands of people my age with my qualifications wandering around down here (we used to have a morning walking club just for laid of 50+ software developers) and they all did the work of getting certified to teach in the Texas public schools. I got the job I had when the lady who had it before me got a full time teaching job. My application had been on file for more than a year. I moved from a job that was even more part time to one that is almost half time. A major step up!
When my wife graduated from high school she took the ACT. She compared her ACT scores to the average ACT scores of different majors and the average starting salary in those majors. Engineering had the highest starting salary and most closely matched here ACT scores. I went into computer science after taking a class in it and falling in love with it.
I have come to learn that I am pretty typical of a guy who goes into computer science. Most of us do it because we really really like it. Some do it for the money but those guys don't stay in it for long. I have also come to learn that my wife is pretty typical of women who go into technical subjects. They do it because it is a good way to make a living and you can do some really interesting stuff too.
Now, lets see some of the differences between being a "software engineer" and a real engineer. My wife has been laid off once, I have been laid off twice. Until I turned 49 (I'm now 56) I made 20% to 40% more than she did. She now makes 250% more than I do. I have done thousands of hours of involuntary unpaid overtime. She has always either been paid for, or received comp time for, all the overtime she has ever done. And, while it is common for programmers to be told to get something done by Tuesday or else, that has never happened to her. Working conditions that are normal for programmers are practically unheard of for engineers.
Women tend to be more practical than men when it comes to picking a career. Being more practical they will google for information about salaries, work hours, working conditions and so on, *before* picking a major. If you want to have a job for the rest of your life, and work 40 hours per week most of the time, and be respected at work and in the community, you do not study computer science. At least
100% wrong (Score:3, Informative)
This is the reason that I didn't vote for McCain. Palin believes that her personal beliefs should be imposed on others.
The reason I DID vote for McCain is that Palin said in an interview question on abortion, that communities should be able to decide their own standards.
Palin is as close to a Libertarian candidate as we have seen to date - and part of that is that she is able to separate personal beliefs from government mandates.
I'm not sure how you got to understanding her completely backwards, but now instead we'll have a president and congress very much interested in imposing standards upon all of us. Think on that over the next four years and perhaps next time you'll pay closer attention to what candidates ACTUALLY think before you pull the lever.
Re:Women don't want to do CS? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Informative)
It's just the guys who spend the whole time rambling about vague topics while staring at the girl's chest that give us the creeps
There was a guy like this in my year, and a few of the girls complained about him to me. The thing is, he behaved exactly the same way when talking to me. Some guys have low self-esteem and won't make eye contact with anyone when they talk. The same is true of quite a lot of girls. The difference is that if a guy looks down when he talks to a girl he is assumed to be staring at her breasts, while a girl who looks down when talking to a guy is just assumed to be shy.
Re:Obvious.... (Score:3, Informative)
It is well known that aside from all other determiners, a woman will receive less pay than a man.
"Well known" and mostly wrong. A woman with the same experience and education in the same job a man earns 98% [iwf.org] of his salary on average. The main source of the gap is that men and women choose different jobs. Some of this is probably due to socialization, but it's never going to go away completely, if for no other reason than that women have babies.
The Postings Prove the Point (Score:4, Informative)