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Comments: 278 +- News: British Hacker Loses Review of Asperger's Defense on Friday July 31, @08:47AM
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kdawson
on Friday July 31, @08:47AM
from the one-more-chance dept.
from the one-more-chance dept.
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Barence writes "Gary McKinnon has lost the judicial review of his case, dealing a potentially fatal blow to his hopes of avoiding extradition to the US. Lord Justice Stanley Burnton and Mr. Justice Wilkie dismissed the review at the Royal Courts of Justice. The review had been assembled to determine whether the diagnosis of McKinnon's Asperger's Syndrome had any bearing on the Home Office's original decision to extradite him to the US. Asperger's sufferers often exhibit obsessive behavior and social naivety, which McKinnon's lawyers have long offered as mitigation. His legal team now has 28 days to appeal the verdict, and his lawyer, Karen Todners, has indicated they may consider taking his case before the US Supreme Court. Last year we discussed a full profile of the hacker published by the BBC." Sophos's survey of 550 IT professionals found that 71% believe McKinnon should not be extradited.
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Wrong court (Score:5, Informative)
It is the new English supreme court the case is going to, the one that replaces the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords.
Extradition Act 2003 (Score:5, Informative)
What is really pissing the British off is that the American government is trying to extradite McKinnon using a law that was passed under the shadow of 9/11 for the purposes of anti-terrorism.
Granted, McKinnon was foolish to enter the US government computers, although perhaps he should be given a consultant's fee for highlighting such lax security. If they're going to prosecute him for being an idiot, then certainly they could look closer to home.
And the tactics employed by the American Justice Department have been more than questionable under various EU laws, let alone the English legal system.
Perhaps the biggest disappointment is to see the politicians rolling over for the American government instead of standing up for their own citizens.
Did McKinnon break into the systems? Yes, and he has admitted such. Surely as a British citizen having commited a crime in England he should be tried under English law.
Iain
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I strongly disagree. If McKinnon admittedly broke into U.S. government systems, on U.S. soil, then the entire act occurred in the United States, making McKinnon subject to U.S. law and court jurisdiction. If the reverse had been true and McKinnon were in the United States breaking into MI5 computers, you better believe that the Crown would be looking to extradite him to the U.K..
Re:Extradition Act 2003 (Score:4, Informative)
The constitution makes it all but impossible to extradite someone from the US, since "probable cause" is required and interpreted very strictly[1]. Numerous members of the IRA took advantage of this.
[1] effectively proof beyond reasonable doubt, which you can't get without a trial.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, who gives a damn? He was hacking into U.S. computers. He should be punished under U.S. law. Is anyone in the U.K. a direct victim of his crime? No. Is the U.S. government? Yes. Thus he answers to the U.S. legal system. End of story.
Re:Extradition Act 2003 (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
it's karma (Score:3, Informative)
You do realize the UK government used anti-terrorist laws against Iceland right? And I would mention those people never set foot in the UK either.
What goes around comes around.
Other way round, actually (Score:3, Interesting)
Really, it's the admins of those insecure computers who should be prosecuted. I thought it was a federal offense negligently to give access to secret data?
Re:Extradition Act 2003 (Score:4, Insightful)
It should be both, shouldn't it? You're hacking from your own jurisdiction, as well as trespassing on property in another jurisdiction.
But, if a country doesn't care about prosecuting hackers targeting American systems, we probably don't have an extradition treaty with them either. In that case it becomes something for our diplomats to duke out.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Extradition Act 2003 (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Mod parent up (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mod parent up (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Down with the aspie defense! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm so sick of the aspie defense. Seems like every time a computer user is on trial (remember Reiser?), it gets rolled out. "My client is guilty as hell, but he's got Asperger's!" First, your mental handicap has to be to the point where you quite literally don't know what you're doing - so just give it up, having light Asperger's doesn't cut it. Second, it impacts the way people view us computer professionals - for example, when we try to argue for less copyright and more information freedom. The aspie defense does us about as much good as the "Your honor, this man did indeed kill his daughter, but he's Muslim, he can't help himself" defense does for the vast majority of Muslims.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Aye the Asperger defence is pretty lame but honestly he should not even have to use it, the extradition laws they are using to extradite him should not have been used it this case as not only were they intended only for suspected terrorists but to boot they are completely one sided, requireing no evidence of a crime to presented by the US for someone to be extradited from the UK while the same not being true in reverse
Though wonder why they have not pursued this to the European court level as the extraditi
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
they are completely one sided, requireing no evidence of a crime to presented by the US for someone to be extradited from the UK
You know, I had to read the act twice to confirm that it really was so. That is just completely wrong. I really hope they take this to the Supreme Court - if nothing else, the publicity will perhaps help to overturn the law.
Re:Down with the aspie defense! (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm so sick of the aspie defense. Seems like every time a computer user is on trial (remember Reiser?), it gets rolled out. "My client is guilty as hell, but he's got Asperger's!"
If this defense was accepted in court, the unforeseen consequence would be that eventually companies and governments would protect themselves from preventing those with Asperger's Syndrome (or borderline equivalent behavior). Imagine mandatory mental screening on a yearly basis to prevent anyone with "the wrong kind of thinking" from being able to have internet access because one guy set a landmark case and got away with being just nuts enough to escape prison.
I call shenanigans (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I call shenanigans (Score:4, Interesting)
Not true. Many aspies will go through all sorts of contortions to fit in. I played football in high school and had a C- average until my senior year, when I decided to start studying again, and got a 4.7 my final year (4.5 scale, honors courses went to 5.5, so it pulled me above 4.5). I hated football, but I hated myself even more, and wanted desperately to fit in. Having horrible motor coordination meant I was stuck playing line, and socially I was as clumsy as I was physically. It was a massive failure in terms of fitting in, but I had Aspergers, and didn't really understand that there was more to fitting in than adopting a stereotype. Looking back on it, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a large number of bodybuilders (or athletes) who have some form of aspergers. It's the socially clumsy,"if I just get bigger biceps then everyone will love me" types that I'm thinking about.
Some Aspies avoid social situations, others will make clumsy, awkward attempts to fit in. They'll rehearse everything they say, over-prepare for every social event, and still find ways to fuck it up. They'll go to great lengths to fit in whatever way they can.
Parent
AS is no excuse (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh come on, stop making medical excuses for this guy. Most people with AS know that you cannot do something like this without breaking the law and getting punished.
McKinnon is just another geek who thought that a lack of security implied that he could just walk right in through the door without punishment. Chances are, he's also one of those geeks who would hypocritically go postal if he left his door unlocked and a bunch of people walked in and refused to leave.
"But it's a computer... it's **different** mmmmkay?"
asymmetrical extradition treaty (Score:4, Insightful)
Should have... (Score:3, Funny)
...used the wookie defence...
insult to us others with Aspergers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:UK Law vs US Law (Score:5, Informative)
He didn't "hack in". They had default "Administrator" accounts with no password. The hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage he's supposed to have caused was the cost of checking to see if he'd damaged anything (he hadn't) and fixing the security holes (which weren't his problem). They only noticed the intrusion because he left messages telling them!
What he did was the moral equivalent of walking through an unlocked, unguarded door and having a look round. For this he's facing 60 years in jail. This is not justice.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
What he did was the moral equivalent of walking through an unlocked, unguarded door and having a look round. For this he's facing 60 years in jail. This is not justice.
And... Leaving a note to the property owner. " You left the door open and I looked around. Please remember to lock it"
Re:UK Law vs US Law (Score:4, Insightful)
And if you came home and found such a note on your table, what would your reaction be?
Would it be "My my, I should really double check to make sure the door was locked. Thanks, Anonymous Note Writer!"
Probably not. Most likely, it would be something like "Holy crap, who does that guy think he is coming into my house and poking around without permission?" followed by vague feelings of unease and paranoia.
Yes, the systems should have been secured better. But that still doesn't give someone permission to go poking around in them, any more than someone has permission to go poking around in your house if the door is unlocked.
Parent
Re:UK Law vs US Law (Score:5, Insightful)
No, leaving your door unlocked is not an invitation to enter.
But we don't lock people up for 60 years for trespassing.
If the original post up there is correct, what he did was far less severe a crime than trespassing.
A fine would be appropriate here. Decades in US federal prison most certainly is not.
Parent
The electric fence. (Score:5, Insightful)
But we don't lock people up for 60 years for trespassing.
There have always been places where a physical intrusion - no matter how trivial - could quite conceivably get you shot.
The online world isn't so very different.
Parent
Re:UK Law vs US Law (Score:5, Interesting)
If the guy left a card to contact him, I'd probably send him some cash to buy a couple of beers with. After all, he could have stolen all my stuff, not left a note, and left no sign of forced entry (preventing me from claiming on my insurance).
Sometimes being a good citizen is the worst thing to do. There's a reason why you don't hear of many "good samaritans" any more.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If the guy left a card to contact him, I'd probably send him some cash to buy a couple of beers with.
Most SANE people would call the police and pass on the contact info. I suspect that in "reality", so would you.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It would be "who the fuck forgot to lock my military installation?"
Seriously, we get into this whole trespass argument all the time, but come on. If they didn't lock or guard an armory, would you be charging the guy who pointed it out?
Re:UK Law vs US Law (Score:5, Insightful)
It's still hacking. Incredibly easy hacking, but any attempt to gain access to a system where you're not authorized is hacking. You can try to delude yourself that it isn't, but a reasonable person will conclude that it is hacking. It's like that bit from Jumanji: "You tried to cheat?" "No, I tried to drop the dice so they'd land on twelve." Oh, okay, honey. Well, that would be cheating."
As for the "having a look round" bit: I don't know what the law is like where you live, but if someone does that here, they're gonna end up in the local jail waiting to go before a judge to explain just why they're wandering around. (And I don't suspect the judge will be happy with "Oh, I was just looking around.")
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's kind of the issue. They had no way to know if he'd damaged anything, and so they had to check everything out, which costs time and money. They screwed up, but he knew he shouldn't be in their systems. I don't think he should be sent to the US, but he's not innocent.
What he did was the moral equivalent of walking through an unlocked, unguarded door marked "stay the fuck out", where sensitive equipment is kept that must not be tampered with, and having a look around. He's facing jail time because e
Re:UK Law vs US Law (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's be clear. He should not have been on those systems. He *knew* he was not allowed in those systems. The fact that there was security, good, bad or non-existent is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter if he was "exposing" their lack of security. It doesn't matter if he supposedly did no damage.
Nothing compelled him to attack and intrude on another party's system. Nothing compelled him to do that intrusion on a system that he knew would cause the black helicopters to appear. Being stupid is not a defense in a court of law. Although he has demonstrated a certain lack of mental capacity by even trying this stunt, he's still not dumb enough to be considered retarded, although *that* should have been his diminished capacity defense.
The DoD does not have the luxury of taking this guy at his word, they *must* investigate. That costs time and money. Additionally, intruding on a military system carries the higher than average possibility that compromise could cause casualties. That means that you come down like a ton of bricks on people who do it, without regard for what they actually attacked. You want people to know that simply putting their pinky toe over the line into that network is Serious Business, despite what they decided to go after.
Don't get me wrong. People need to be fired at DoD and security needs to be improved, but that doesn't make what he did right or legal or less deserving of extradition and jail time. You don't go logging into military systems on a lark. If he was allowed to get off the hook for that, just think of the numbers of emboldened attackers who would see one less reason why they shouldn't attack a portion of the Internet that is already a huge target.
To reiterate, it doesn't matter if the morons at DoD left their door ajar, and it doesn't matter if our friendly neighborhood hacker just started writing notes all over the place about how bad their security was. You may not like having to send him to another country for trial, but he earned it. The only thing that the situation seems to lack is the sanctions and/or jail time for the people who were that bad at security. They should rot in jail alongside with McKinnon.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:FIST SPORT (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe people will finally realise Aspergers isn't a real condition and an excuse for the the socially inept to not make the effort.
Some psychological, personality, and/or developmental disorders aren't fictitious. Maybe people will finally realize that and stop being facetious know-it-all assholes. Then again, maybe people like ringbarer are obvious trolls and my social ineptness and my lack of effort is the excuse for this misunderstanding.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Asperger's Syndrome has already been established as being a defect in the mirror neurons in the brain, and it is unquestionably a form of autism (which is caused by those parts of the brain designed to filter information being malformed).
If a malformed brain is an "excuse", I'd LOVE to see ringbarer's sick notes. What the hell is real, if great big chunks of the brain being missing is fake?
Re:FIST SPORT (Score:5, Funny)
I think the everyone missed the irony of you being unable to connect with and empathize with people with Aspergers.
i got your joke.
Parent
Re:FIST SPORT (Score:4, Insightful)
You are woefully uninformed and have probably only run into those idiots that self-diagnose as having Aspergers for the reason you state. If you've ever met anyone that was professionally diagnosed with Aspergers you'd know that almost all of them do what they can to fight the disorder and act normally. I, personally, know several and unless they told you it'd be hard to tell them apart from your average geek.
In other words... I'd suggest you STFU and actually do some research before cocking off about something you obviously have no real knowledge about.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Asperger's is a very real condition, however by definition it is no defense for criminal behavior. The similar condition that is severe enough to merit a diminished capacity defense is called Autism. The threshold of diminished capacity was long established in autism diagnosis before Asperger's was identified. Autism is a disease, Asperger's is a disorder.
And although we can agree on the invalidity of the legal argument, I must point out that derogatory comments about the mentally disabled is extremely l
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
First off, Asperger's Syndrome is generally recognized as being on the Autistic Spectrum, not as an independently-classified condition. Second, MRI shows the two to be tightly-coupled, that there can be no serious question that Asperger's Syndrome is merely a specific subset of Autism.
Now we've got that out the way, I strongly object to the whole mental concept of absolute diminished responsibility. It's a sliding scale, not an on/off switch, and ALL people will have some area in which some diminished respo
Re:FIST SPORT (Score:5, Interesting)
I know you were trolling, but I need to respond. I have AS. My father has it. My grandfather had it. And my son and one of my daughters have it. Believe me, it's real. I'm nearly 40. I'm just now feeling like I'm getting a handle on social skills. I believe I'm now entering the realm of the merely poor people-skilled humans. But it's much more than a lack of people skills. I have problems experiencing any emotion except anger. Sometimes I know what I'm feeling. Sometimes I feel something specific (like jealousy or embarrassment for example) but interpret it as a generic "bad". Sometimes I can't identify it at all. And sometimes I feel nothing when something should be there. Even when I know exactly what I'm feeling, 80% of the time, I express it incorrectly. Normal people can't read me either. They think I'm angry when I'm not, or feel completely blind-sided when I am angry. Behaviors that are natural and automatic for neurotypicals are learned behaviors for me. And if I haven't learned them, I execute them wrong or not at all. I have problems with executive function meaning that it's difficult or impossible to plan and organize some things. It explains why I always scored sky-high on aptitude tests in school, but always got bad grades. My spacial relations, problem solving, design abilities, and speech/linguistics are way out there. I always impress people with it. But my memory is beyond terrible. I can remember hardware addresses of computers I used 20 years ago, but can't remember what I had for breakfast a couple days ago. I also have sensory problems, mainly with touch and hearing. I have problem filtering out background noises and focusing on specific people talking. I have no idea what they're saying. Yet my hearing tests out perfect. When it happens, it's like my wife has switched to a foreign language. My gait is visibly wrong, which is common. I also have the theory of mind problems (mind-blindness). It's sometimes nearly impossible for me to understand at all how someone else feels unless something nearly identical has happened to me. As a coping mechanism, I have a long mental list of things that I know make people feel bad. When someone expresses sadness to me because of one of these things, I fake the empathy back to them. It works most of the time. And I intend the same things for them as someone who actually feels bad for them. I really want them to feel better. But inside me, I feel mostly nothingness.
Asperger's Syndrome and other autism spectrum disorders are real. I've benefited partially from it. But for the most part it sucks. I would give anything to be normal.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It may be an excuse if it wasn't for the obvious neurological difference that shows up in MRIs of people both with autism and AS.
Re:FIST SPORT (Score:5, Insightful)
Yup, and you can do a scan to determine if I am awake or asleep, or whether I am thinking or not. This does not, however, indicate it is some type of genetic disorder or environmental variable causing this.
The one fact that keeps rearing its head is that even after you take out other socioeconomic variables, ADD and ADHD is much more prevalent in fatherless households. There is a very high correlation. And yes, I know correlation!=causation. However, you have to make some pretty big leaps of faith to get around it. Dads have a much different parenting style and discipline style than moms. It stands to reason that this would have an impact on the outcome of the children.
And now, in the modern America, where husbands aren't really viewed as necessary (or even desired), we wonder why we have an explosion of these "disorders". Sorry... it ain't rocket science.
Parent
Re:FIST SPORT (Score:5, Insightful)
Family values are talked about. We have advertising campaigns. But it is projected that in a few years that more kids will be born out of wedlock than in (it is slightly over 40% now). This is trend is being seen in all social levels. So, Family Values are a nice political campaign slogan, but we have rejected them as a society.
If you want the #1 factor in a child's success, look to two-parent households with parents who are actively involved with their children. Forget ethnicity, forget money. They may be big factors, but parents' involvement is #1.
Parent
Re:FIST SPORT (Score:4, Insightful)
And just like heart disease. It's called being a pussy. Don't grab at your chest pussy. Suck it up!
(obviously you've never heard of adult ADD which is somehow "just being a kid?")
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Guantanamo (Score:5, Insightful)
Not at all, given that the whole point of Guantanamo Bay is to hold people against whom there is no evidence. He's actually guilty of something, so he can be sentenced in a court. Now, if he was innocent, but someone disliked him and wanted to get rid of him, then he would be sent to GB.
Not that that GB would be that different than the one he's currently in, mind you...
Parent