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Comments: 1255 +-   FOSS Sexism Claims Met With Ire and Denial on Monday October 12, @11:47AM

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Monday October 12, @11:47AM
from the girls-don't-write-foss dept.
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Last Friday Bryce Byfield gave us a little insight into the fallout surrounding his article on sexism in the FOSS world. Unfortunately it seems that FOSS junkies did little better than the rest of the world with respect to sexism, displaying similar levels of denial, abuse, and ignorance. "But the real flood of emotion comes from the anti-feminists and the average men who would like to deny the importance of feminist issues in FOSS. Raise the subject of sexism, and you are met with illogic that I can only compare to that of the tobacco companies trying to deny the link between their products and cancer. Because I took a feminist stance in public, I have been abused in every way possible — being called irrelevant, a saboteur, coward, homosexual, and even a betrayer of the community. I know that many women in the community have been attacked much more savagely than I have, so I'm not complaining. Nor am I a stranger to readers who disagree with me, but the depth of reaction has taken me back more than once. I think the reaction is an expression of denial more than anything else."
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  • Raise the subject of sexism ...

    What reports of sexism have there been? Are you raising the subject of sexism just based on the fact that only 1.5% of FOSS developers are women? It takes a very special kind of person to do FOSS development -- because it's often outside of work. Which means you have to love what you do at work and then come home and do it some more. Even I get sick of coding. It's an uncommon desire and requires a special kind of insanity. So much of the stuff I write outside of work is just absolutely useless in the end. Is it possible this trait is far less common in women than men?

    Present evidence of sexist attitudes and attacks and I will gladly support you. Hell, I support you right now, nothing would make me happier than more women in FOSS. I just am not sure how you promote that sort of goal -- usually it's a monetary or favorable employment reward for having ovaries but the only reward is ... recognition?

    Because I took a feminist stance in public, I have been abused in every way possible — being called irrelevant, a saboteur, coward, homosexual, and even a betrayer of the community.

    People on the internet called you names? It happens. Who are these people? Probably random pigs the internet has no shortage of. Don't let it get to you, hold your summit and figure out a way to designate Female FOSS Developer of the Month on your website.

    To reiterate, I'm not denying that there is an disturbingly low percentage of women in FOSS development. I'm just questioning what's causing that. It's probably a number of factors including Hollywood not showing women as the computer hacker in many of their movies (except maybe Hackers). It's predominantly the stereotypical male. Women have to overcome that and women have to realize that getting together and working on a project with your friends by just coding can be fun. But I think society tells them early on that's not what women do. If there's any sexism, I've seen no proof it's internal to FOSS.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12, @11:57AM (#29720505)

      People on the internet called you names? It happens. Who are these people?

      Have you ever seen a good OpenBSD flamewar?

      Theo de Raadt has an absolute, uncompromising stand on open source, and refuses to deal with crappy, binary-only drivers. He often calls out people & products he thinks are crap. Gender never comes in to the discussion.

    • No one is denying that there are idiots out there. Just browse at -1 here. You'll see every kind of comment for every kind of 'ism that you're looking for.

      But let's look are real EXAMPLES of real COMMENTS. Okay?

      And since we're talking about FOSS, we can look at the kernel mailing list. Hmmmmm, not a lot of sexist comments there. Particularly when taken as a percentage of total comments.

      So if only 1.5% of developers are women ... but fewer than 0.1% of comments on development mailing lists are sexist ... what is the real "problem" that exists?

      • by Anghwyr (1245932) on Monday October 12, @12:13PM (#29720717) Homepage

        There was an example on a ruby conference earlier this year: http://dyepot-teapot.com/2009/04/25/dear-fellow-rubyists/ [dyepot-teapot.com]

        “If he had left it at a few introductory jokes, I would be writing a very different post. Instead the porn references continued with images of scantily-clad women gratuitously splashed across technical diagrams and intro slides. As he got into code snippets, he inserted interstitial images every few slides.

        • You've linked (1) to a link (2) referencing a presentation (3) by ONE GUY at a rather small meeting (200 people).

          So that ONE instance is repeated over and over (and linked to) as "evidence" of "sexism" instead of being seen as what it really is:
          ONE instance out of thousands of non-sexist presentations.

          Again, if 1.5% of FOSS developers are women, but only 0.1% of the comments are sexist, what is the REAL problem that you're trying to "solve"?

          • by nametaken (610866) on Monday October 12, @12:57PM (#29721511)

            Careful, this conversation is a TRAAAAP.

            Apparently you either agree that there's rampant sexism in the FOSS community or you're "displaying similar levels of denial, abuse, and ignorance".

          • Again, if 1.5% of FOSS developers are women, but only 0.1% of the comments are sexist, what is the REAL problem that you're trying to "solve"?

            You've provided a nice illustration of the problem. If it turns out that, say, 10% of FOSS developers are black, do you think that would make nigger references OK as long as we kept them under 1%? If 5% of FOSS developers are gay, do you think that allows up to 0.5% faggot references?

            Anyone have some stats on the percentage of FOSS developers that are Jewish, Arab, or Mexican so I can figure out what percentage of my comments are allowed to mention kikes, camel fucking, and wetbacks without it being a problem?

            • by lgw (121541) on Monday October 12, @04:18PM (#29724497) Journal

              You've provided a nice illustration of the problem. If it turns out that, say, 10% of FOSS developers are black, do you think that would make nigger references OK as long as we kept them under 1%? If 5% of FOSS developers are gay, do you think that allows up to 0.5% faggot references?

              For years one of the first few posts on every Slashdot story was a GNAA (Gay Nigger Aliiance of America) troll. They were constant. Do you think Slashdot is racist and anti-gay? Do you think those posts were representative of the Slashdot community?

              People on the internet will say thing you find offensive. Trolls will say things because you find them offensive. All online communities have trolls, as well as people who don't understand their comments may offend, and people who know but don't care. The answer? Get over yourself. If you only want to participate in communities where everyone is nice to you, the internet is not for you.

          • So if only 1.5% of developers are women ... but fewer than 0.1% of comments on development mailing lists are sexist ... what is the real "problem" that exists?

            I'm not going to argue with the idea that only 0.1% of comments in the FOSS movement are sexist, because you're probably right: the vast majority of interaction and discussion in the FOSS is not sexist. What I think you're overlooking, however, is that there isn't a threshold for sexism. Sexism is an issue of perception, not of percentages. For example, simply because we have female politicians doesn't mean that politics isn't also a sexist field.

            The problem trying to be solved is the feeling of exclusion by some women from the FOSS movement. For example, I'm having difficulty finding apologies for the examples of sexism people are linking to. That's not an issue of numbers, but an issue of perception. It tells me, a woman, that people in the FOSS will make mistakes. But everyone makes mistakes - that's not a deal-breaker. But it also tells me that members of the FOSS movement will be reluctant to apologize for their mistakes, and that can become a deal-breaker.

            And, for what it's worth, I don't think those standards are unreasonable. I don't shun or reject friends, family, coworkers, whomever, simply because they carelessly said something hurtful or offensive. But if they A) don't acknowledge what they said is problematic and B) refuse to apologize, I eventually will decide to remove myself from situations where I have to interact with them. That's what the issue seems to be here. Not merely that FOSS has issues with sexist jokes - western culture has an issue with sexist jokes - but that a movement which, to me, has connected itself with ideals of rights and equality isn't able or willing to apologize about them.

            -Trillian

            • by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Monday October 12, @12:29PM (#29720973)

              You are ASSUMING that the claims of sexism are factual.

              Yet when the STATISTICS are presented to you, you claim that it is "ire and denial".

              That's exactly the dismissive attitude that allows the problem to continue.

              Again, when 1.5% of the developers are women, and only 0.1% of the comments are sexist, what is the REAL problem that you are trying to "solve"?

              • by amplt1337 (707922) on Monday October 12, @01:59PM (#29722493) Journal

                Again, when 1.5% of the developers are women, and only 0.1% of the comments are sexist, what is the REAL problem that you are trying to "solve"?

                Because obviously a few comments couldn't possibly be indicative of an overall cultural attitude, and of course one or two comments couldn't be enough to drive women away in droves.

                Get a grip on yourself.

                This reminds me of an instance on the Debian mailing list a couple months back -- not this one [itwire.com], hmm... can't find it right now -- where a woman on the list dared to speak up against some sexist comments that were going on, and got flamed out of existence (certainly out of the Debian community) while the list "regulars" went on to make sex jokes for the next several days.
                And we wonder why there aren't more women in Linux.

            • by maroberts (15852) on Monday October 12, @12:55PM (#29721473) Homepage Journal
              Yes, and as was pointed out in the article you linked to, he was banned from the Debian bug tracking system and others. The guy seems to be a general abuser of women in general, not an example of geek abuse of women.
            • by vadim_t (324782) on Monday October 12, @01:03PM (#29721609) Homepage

              Actually, the last part I can kind of understand.

              OSS projects are for coding. I don't really care if you're a man, woman, or cat that somehow managed to learn to use a keyboard. People are valued in OSS projects for their coding contributions. I'm not really surprised that people with an agenda not relating to getting things done don't get a pleasant welcome.

              Note that I don't have any issues with anybody at all participanting. Whether a man, woman, or alien, computer, or brain in a vat, come and code.

              But I don't think something like this should really exist in something like Debian. There shouldn't be a "Debian Women", "Debian LGBT", "Debian Minusvalids" or "Debian Furries" project not because it's somehow wrong for such people to participate (I belong to one of the listed categories), but because such things should be completely irrelevant and everybody should be only judged by the value of the code, art, etc they contribute.

            • by dlgeek (1065796) on Monday October 12, @01:07PM (#29721681)
              You're calling MikeUSA a Debian commentator? He's a troll who got banned from all the Debian mailing lists. Calling him a Debian commentator makes it sound like he's somehow associated with the project, rather than shunned by it.
              • No, I don't think anyone said that. Though, you know, it would be nice if people realized that it is generally a bad thing for people to be able to make death threats against women without being called on it. Because these things [wikipedia.org]escalate [wikipedia.org].

                Here's the thing. We all want open source to succeed and grow bigger. That mean getting more developers and more users. But, if someone with a name like Cindy or Susan tries to contribute to a program and they're met with responses that treat them differently because of their gender, FOSS is going to run into problems.

              • You defend MikeeUSA's feelings by saying he has come to his extremist views from years of being exposed to extreme views.

                So, how come that you cannot come to the same conclusion in reverse? That those women you quote (often out of context) have come to their view from the decades, centuries even millenia of extremist views women have endured?

                Extremism grows best when opposed by extremist.

                All men are rapist. It was once the law that a woman had to obey her husband without question. Submit to him regardless of her own wishes. How do you define rape else then forcing sex against someones will?

                The marriage comment. Since we now regonize the right of a person to refuse sex even within marriage and that a woman is no longer the property of the husband, traditional marriage has indeed been abolished. It has been replaced by an entirely different version with competly different laws, just using the same name. The old was destroyed to make place for a new better more equal version.

                To kill an infant. We do this all the time, the west owns it wealth and health to the fact that women no longer drop a new kid every year. It allows for very long, expensive education and a high concentration of best food and medical care, rather then waste it on a dozen kids, most who will die because they do not get the resources they need. Why do you think Africa does so poorly? Everytime they do a bit better, they get an explosion of new people who they can't feed or educate. Birth control IS the answer. Her proposal should be seen as a way to shake things up, overkill to get people thinking about just what it means for a family that has no control over the number of children.

                to decontaminate the planet. Again, an extreem suggestion but the counter result of the extreem in which baby girls in china are killed because they are not valued.

                We, western white males, all to easily forget just how extreem hatred can get. Watch a holocaust documentary and remember, this ain't all that long ago. Women only got the vote recently, only had the right to own property recently.

                While a lot has changed, this has changed because people werewilling to talk extremist. Once, a woman who talked about the right to vote, could go to jail for this terrible crime.

                You defend MikeeUSA for his extremist views, but deny the same excuse for the other side.

                That is all to common sadly, but to give you a clear example of how one-sided this is. You would send a woman who kicked her rapist to jail for kicking him in the balls afterwards.

      • Are you seriously going to sit there and argue that open source is a sheer meritocracy with a straight face? Okay. Here are 4 examples:

        That's the result of a 5 minute google search.

        • by hedwards (940851) on Monday October 12, @12:27PM (#29720929)
          As opposed to the rest of the world where people get where they are by hard work and ingenuity.

          Yes, sexism exists, but it's not like feminists are saints either. Notice the shrinking portion of degrees earned by men in recent years, or how mysteriously benefits don't count as a part of the pay package when it's inconvenient to casting women as victims of oppression? Or how about the rather extreme form of censorship visited on people that point out that women are just as likely to be abusers as men.

          It's a tad hard to take people decrying sexism directed at women seriously when so often those accusations are used as a tool to further women's position at the expense of men's regardless of how the positions in a particular area were arrived at.
          • by Jane_Dozey (759010) on Monday October 12, @01:00PM (#29721567)

            I absolutely hate when women wave the flag of feminism when they're just being sexist asshats trying to get ahead of men. As a girl working in software development, it makes it all the harder to get accepted when male work colleagues are suspicious of my motives and being careful not to offend just in case I'm one of those idiots. I can't say I blame them either, it could ruin a mans career.

            As for those women, please don't give them any credit by calling them feminists. They're sexists and should be called out as such. Maybe then the rest of us can get on and get some proper work done. /rant

          • Wow. You're really committed to being right about this. I'm going to try and explain it anyway, even though I'm fairly certain this isn't going to go anywhere with you. Maybe someone else will read this and Get It, because I'm almost certain that you won't.

            First, that 5 minutes included formatting the HTML for the reply and proof-reading. Not time-consuming, but in the context of 300 seconds, not exactly trivial either.

            Second: Because only 1.5% of FOSS developers are women, it has created a fraternal atmosphere where jokes such as Stallman's are an acceptable part of the FOSS society. This becomes self-perpetuating, because sexist jokes and attitudes become more acceptable in a homogenous culture. Meanwhile, apologists are free to say "Women are totally welcome, if they can hang with us," thus relieving themselves of the responsibility of creating an environment that is more welcoming toward outsiders. It's the woman's problem that she is offended and unable to be "one of the boys," and not the responsibility of those who are acting offensively.

            When the brave and the pioneering outsiders do come into the culture and attempt to change it so that it is more welcoming and they can be more comfortable, they are met with overwhelming resistance. Some of it, such as the Ruby pr0n presentation or the continued adulation of booth bunnies, is brazen. Other opposition, such as your own, is more subtle. You are insisting that there is nothing wrong with the current way things are done, that there is no reason to change, that there is no evidence of institutional sexism in the FOSS world, and that accusations of such are outlandish. Meanwhile, the number of women involved in the movement remains the same paltry 1.5%, because the established culture that excludes women remains static. Nothing is done accommodate those who would otherwise join the movement, were the movement itself not structured so as to be exclusionary.

            Third: There is an issue of magnification that disappears when you go hiding behind the statistics. For every woman who is willing to stick it out in the face of something like Shuttleworth's comments, there are uncounted numbers who hear the message loud and clear: They are not welcome as FOSS developers. It doesn't matter if only 0.1% of the traffic on the kernel list is sexist, because it only takes a few to chase away many. If a small number of men project a clear message that women are not welcome, and they are not shouted down by ten times as many other men, then the message is deafening: Those few are our mouthpieces, and we are content to let them speak for us. In this instance, lack of public disavowal is seen as tacit agreement.

            It's hard admitting that you're part of something that hurts people, especially if it's something you love. I understand. The initial reaction of denial that I had was much the same, but all the denial in the world doesn't make it any less true. The FOSS movement is changing its attitudes toward sexism much more slowly than the field of computer science and IT in general, but we can't stay put forever. It's my feeling that we're entering a period of growth, and growing is painful. But the potential reward is great. Right now, the best and brightest minds of half our population are smart enough to tell us to fuck ourselves, because they won't put up with our shitty, sexist attitude. If we get smart in return and create a culture where they are welcome, I guarantee the results will be more than worth it.

            • No.. if the general postings in online discussions are 2% sexist, but the postings in FOSS discussions are 0.1% that being the case, I'd say this is pretty clearly a non-issue being blown out of water. You don't get rid of racism by "making whitey pay" and you don't get rid of sexism by inflaming the issue at hand. The only way to battle ignorance is with intelligent discussion, and ignoring subversive ignorance. This entire thread of discussion can have no hope of anything other than polarizing the issue at hand.

            • And before you respond, tell me if you'll need a tractor to help you with all the goalpost moving you're doing.

              Don't use terms you don't understand. I said 0.1% and I have not changed that.

              Now, to contradict your 54 examples (provided on a page that seems dedicated to finding such examples), I'll tell you about the Linux Kernel Mailing List which has thousands of non-sexist comments. Thousands. And that is a SINGLE mailing list.

              Or is it that you do not understand what 0.1% means?

            • by HungryHobo (1314109) on Monday October 12, @02:41PM (#29723089)

              What the hell.
              What sort persecution complex do you have to have to spend your life compiling lists of anonymous people offending you on the internet?
              http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents [wikia.com]
              It should be pointed out that your 54 examles of how the FOSS community is packed full of misogyny includes many shining examples of the FOSS community being sexist, just from a quick look....

              Go daddies advertising campaign(nothing to do with FOSS)
              A video game about a Fat Princess(nothing to do with FOSS)
              Various companies employing "booth babes" because that's apparently evil(nothing to do with FOSS)
              some tripe about a comic strip at defcon which had an airhead female character.(nothing to do with FOSS)
              people getting sent copies of Maxim instead of some gaming mag(nothing to do with FOSS)
              Some summit which apparently didn't get many women turning up (at least it is actually related to FOSS)
              A shocking one about some guy in quebec killing a lot of women.(nothing to do with FOSS though)
              Feminists getting pissed because dell tried to market to the large female demographic that likes pink.(nothing to do with FOSS)
              Someone pissed that people didn't want to make a usenet group comp.women....because there's a comp.men group...(nothing to do with FOSS)

              are we seeing a bit of a theme yet?
              There are some genuine "incidents" in there but they're swamped by bullshit.

              I'm not even through a third of them and most seem to have little or nothing to do with FOSS or they amount someone getting offended because some pathetic young/old men drew penises on his presentations or had his desktop background set to some random scantily clad female which of course means he hates women and thinks women can't do anything(honestly that seems to be the logic).

              One troll gets his own "incident" even though he appears to be nobody of any import or anything to do with FOSS.

              If this kind of trivial crap is what's keeping women out of FOSS then all I can say is "Toughen up".

              You'll see more misanthropy,misogyny,misandry, every flavor of "ism" etc etc in pretty much any community.

              There is plenty of sexism in the world, there is plenty of discrimination in the world but a social group based around "show us the code" where people can choose everything about how they present themselves isn't exactly the best place to look if you really want to get your days worth of righteous indignation.

      • by ChienAndalu (1293930) on Monday October 12, @12:44PM (#29721261)

        Just tell me which UNIX command you would use to get instructions on a program and deny that this isn't intentional.

    • To paraphrase: keep that political bullshit out of here. Code. Or don't.

    • Indeed. I have known several women who write open source software, and (admittedly from the outside) I didn't see them treated any differently on mailing lists and in meetings than men. Yes, there's an imbalance, yes, there may be institutional sexism... but what's the source?

      Bruce argues that proprietary software has a higher proportion of women. The thing is, proprietary software has a bigger payback for the actual developer... and it's a payback that is valuable for everyone: MONEY. It's a relatively well paid trade that women are at no great disadvantage in. Most people working on proprietary software ... men or women ... don't program in their spare time, either. It's a job, not a hobby.

      For most developers, open source software is a hobby. A valuable one, yes, but I would suspect that "fewer than 1.5%" of open source developers actually have that in their primary job description. What are the proportions of women involved in other technical hobbies? It's my impression that the answer is "pretty low", and a bit of googling tends to support that. So... what's the reason why women aren't involved in things like model railroading ("I haven't met too many women modelers" -- mary Miller, MMR)? I suspect that's where you need to look to dig up the answer to this question.

    • by roscivs (923777) on Monday October 12, @12:09PM (#29720653) Homepage

      There's also a big difference between "no better than the rest of the world" and "correlation between FOSS and sexism". The first I can certainly believe--there's no reason to believe that the FOSS community is any less sexist than the rest of the world. You're going to find a lot of sexist individuals just because that's the status quo in society today.

      But there's no reason to harp on FOSS developers in particular unless there's evidence that the FOSS community is more sexist than the rest of the world (which I, at least, haven't seen). If that evidence isn't there, then keep on fighting the good fight against sexist pigs in general, wherever you find them.

  • re (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12, @11:51AM (#29720409)

    I stopped reading after "I'm not complaining"

  • ....when the sex of the contributor is more often than not completely unknown?

    I see a contribution from a "Terry", I have no idea if that is a male or female, and really why would I care? Either the code is god, o rit isn't. Why would sex ever have any bearing at all?

    Frankly I really don't even get how a claim of sexism could exist in the FOSS world. It just doesn't translate from meat-space, because frankly, more often than not you have no idea the sex of the person in the first place. And really, that is how it should be.

    • Exactly, on the internet nobody knows you're a dog (or a girl!). If there is some sort of glass ceiling on FOSS projects, then I don't see how it is supposed to work. Maybe the sexism is that girls don't want to work with creepy nerds and "creepy nerd" is pretty much the stereotype for FOSS developers?
        • by Obfuscant (592200) on Monday October 12, @12:39PM (#29721149)
          Why didn't you write Exactly, on the internet nobody knows you're a dog (or a boy!).

          Because, apparently, it is a "girl" who is complaining about sexism. It is quite natural in that context to use female references ("she" vs. "he", "girl" vs. "boy", etc.) It would be stupid, when talking to a female, to say something like "nobody knows you're a boy", because she isn't.

          It is, however, part of the culture of victimhood, to pick out one word in a paragraph and claim that it is sexism because it has a specific gender meaning.

          I'd take this is a reasonably harmless example of sexism, but quite clear proof that sexism exists, and sexist persons are not even aware of it.

          I'd take this as the insufferable attitude of superiority that "victims" have, being the only people on the planet smart enough to be able to detect that they are being victimized. "I'm a victim of XXX, and if you were smarter you'd see how I was being victimized..." "Come see the violence inherent in the system".

          Yes, sexism still exists, but it is damaging to the cause of those who fight true sexism for all this pretend victimhood to be waved around all the time. All it does is turn away the people who you want on your side. Jumping down the throat of someone who used the word "girl" and claiming he's an ignorant sexist just makes YOU look like a loon, and by association, all the other people who have serious and reasonable sexism complaints.

          There is a difference between "sexism" (an act) and a correlation that only X % of Y are women. There is also a difference between sexism the act and a moron who thinks it's funny to put porn in a powerpoint presentation, even when 98% of his audience is going to be male. (Here's a free clue: not all men find porn to be funny or appropriate, so stop pretending that the only people offended by the alleged ruby presentation problem mentioned above were the women.)

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12, @11:55AM (#29720487)

    And I suspect a vast majority of FOSS people are dudes with a heartbeat and would react like the same overblown charges of racism that get directed towards non-progressives with heartbeats.

    I think the male-female dynamic has much to argue over. In many areas there are cultural differences that keep women down and other areas where the natural differences of our mad ape ancestors merely express themselves in reality.

    Many charges of sexism are valid, but some are so ridiculous they deserve the ire they generate.

  • TLDR (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Reason58 (775044) on Monday October 12, @12:02PM (#29720571)
    How can someone speak out against generalizations made towards an entire group of people (women), while at the same time condemning an entire group of people (FOSS)?

    If you would like to see individuals judged on their own merits then stop trying to link behaviors with groups of people. It makes your argument look flawed.
  • by Tubal-Cain (1289912) on Monday October 12, @12:09PM (#29720655) Journal

    I think the reaction is an expression of denial more than anything else.

    OK, how are we supposed to disagree without being "in denial"?

  • by onion2k (203094) on Monday October 12, @12:09PM (#29720661) Homepage

    Or, if you prefer, listen to the horror stories female developers tell about sexist remarks or being asked out for dates.

    Making sexist remarks, ok, I can understand how that might be seen as being sexist. But how is asking a woman out considered sexist behaviour? Face it, if I were to join a group that's 98.5% women and demonstrate that I share an interest with all of them then I strongly suspect I'd get asked out too. Would I complain that their behaviour was sexist? No. Obviously not.

    No. I'd be making lurve. All those ladies! Oh yeah baby!

    Wait. I think I might be being sexist. Err.. Oh dear.

  • by Qbertino (265505) on Monday October 12, @12:11PM (#29720681)

    He mentions geeks asking peer women out for a date as an example for being sexistic. WTF?
    A single woman amoung dozens of men actually is likely to be asked out for a date more often than each man. How is that sexistic?

    That aside I presume this is a vocal few distorting perception of the majority. With feminists and 'manly' programmers alike.

  • Missing reference (Score:5, Informative)

    by SirGarlon (845873) on Monday October 12, @12:13PM (#29720721)
    The summary should have included a link to Byfield's original post [earthweb.com], which explains the basis for his claim of sexism in FOSS:

    In other words, women's participation in FOSS development is over seventeen times lower than it is in proprietary software development.

    Now, isn't that by itself enough to get you thinking?

  • As much as the F/L/OSS community likes to pretend that it is distinct from the "real world" communities, it isn't. But whereas the "real world" is mostly comprised of idiots who lack the mental capacity to understand anything new, let alone seek it, F/L/OSS developers often represent some of the most curious, information-seeking individuals and some of the highest-calibre intellects out there.

    So if we have trouble excusing such behaviour for the "normals", we must be far, far harder on ourselves for those same flaws.

    There is a flip-side, though, that the original poster may have neglected to consider. F/L/OSS developers ARE amongst the brightest and the best, but they also have extraordinarily high levels of autistic behaviours, anti-social disorders, emotional instability and alienation.

    (The first two are collectively known as "Geek Syndrome". The latter two are the inevitable consequence of Geek Syndrome in a society that tolerates no differences, no matter what it says.)

    It is not just likely, but a near-certainty that people with that kind of internal and external pressure WILL fragment into groups that conceal differences by being essentially uniform.

    I'm not sure if it can be called sexism when such behaviour is, at least in part, a mask to conceal what's going on. The mask can be sexist without the person underneath being.

    However, true misogyny does exist, independent of the mask. THAT particular aspect of sexism should be rooted out and burned, as it is warped, buggy thinking. Bugs SHOULD be erased, and a buggy brain SHOULD be patched.

    The problem is how to tell the mask from the person underneath. These are distinct issues. The mask doesn't need fixing, rather the person needs an extended API to handle errors, and the Real World needs replacing with Real World 2.0 to debug the flawed mental processes that produce the garbage in the first place.

    Once either the person has better exception-handling or error trapping, and/or there's less noise generating errors, the mask can be erased. It's a filter that exists to hide bad wet-coding and so the sooner we get rid of the bad code, the sooner we can get rid of the filter.

    My guess would be that if the mask died, a good 75% of the perceived sexism in F/L/OSS would die with it, without a single F/L/OSS coder needing to change their view of gender.

  • THAWTELESS, West London, Monday — Canonical, Inc. has announced the release later this month of Ubuntu Linux 9.10, "Karmic Koala," to men [today.com].

    Project founder Mark Shuttleworth explained that "this stuff is difficult to explain to girls" and thought they'd have gotten the hint when he called 8.04 "Hairy Hardon." "Worrying about sexism in open source just detracts from the battle for Linux. So we've put the tits back into the default desktop. And arses."

    Crime-fighting geek Shuttleworth, who dresses as a billiionaire playboy by night, swore that plenty of women liked him lots and that he obviously wasn't unable to get laid or anything, having gotten seriously rich in the dot-com era, not to mention having gone into space. "Chicks dig that stuff. Trust me, I've met lots of girls. More than five!"

    Canonical Community Manager Jono Bacon echoed this sentiment on his blog. "We just don't understand how come women are 15% of all computer programmers but only 1% of open source programmers. It must be a bit complicated for them. That's why I've written this spontaneous blog post, completely unrelated to anything my boss may or may not have said, on all the fantastically talented women in free software, even if none of them seem to work much on Ubuntu any more. Also, I'm absolutely confident that saying I'm in a computer geek heavy metal band will get me lots of chicks too, even if their pretty little heads can't understand Linux."

    A special women's edition of Ubuntu 9.10 will be released on a bright pink CD. "It doubles as a makeup mirror!" said Shuttleworth.

  • by ChienAndalu (1293930) on Monday October 12, @12:41PM (#29721189)

    echo "alias woman=man" >> ~/.bashrc

  • by Theovon (109752) on Monday October 12, @02:14PM (#29722685)

    The biggest threats to equality are the biases that you are unaware that you have.

    I'm aware of social boundaries that I do not respect, so I find myself having to consciously avoid doing things like mixing professors with students or jocks with nerds at parties. If I had my druthers, I'd invite everyone, but different social circles do different things, and I don't want to make people uncomfortable. A lot of the time, it comes down to the fact that certain topics of discussion are not compatible with the people who don't have pertinant experiences. Men typically don't want to hear about menstruation, while the topic might come up at a party of all women. Conversely, women don't tend to want to hear about men's jock itch, but it's a common enough occurence among male athletes that the discussion might arise. A lot of nerds don't know much about sports, and a lot of jocks don't know the fine details of compiling Linux kernels, so putting them together might result in people stuggling for things to talk about that interest them all.

    All of these things stem from stereotypes. Stereotypes are sometimes completely false, like the depiction of the Irish in the US in the 19th century. But generally, there's some grain of truth, if only resulting from some people's narrow and biased experiences. It's a fact, though, that humans like to create convenient categories and generalize. People have a natural tendency to think "all blacks are..." and "all women are...", because they have observed these things in what they perceive to be a majority of encounters.

    I like to think of myself as being above these petty prejudices, but there's a danger in thinking this, because I can miss subtle biases. I grew up in a family that is clearly male-dominated. My father and I both have graduate degrees, while my mother and sister do not. When I was single, I had expressed a desire to find a partner who was my intellectual equal, but my family discouraged me, telling me that I would have a very hard time finding what I was after. Despite their bias, I ended up marrying a woman that I often think of as my intellectual superior. Still, there are a lot of subtle effects that stem from an implicit assumption that men are generally more intelligent than women, things that MUST have affected me in ways that I'm not aware of.

    I remember a Star Trek episode where Janice Lester had wanted to become a starship captain (but they were not allowed) switched bodies with Kirk. In the end, Kirk makes some comment about how she could have had as full a life as any woman. Of course, our culture has matured significantly in the last 40 years. But in some ways, many people haven't really been taught that women are equal to men; they've only been trained to parrot a politically correct thing to say. They tell themselves that in the hypothetical a woman can be as capable as a man, but they don't believe it to be very LIKELY. And of course, since no one wants to admit to others or even themselves that they feel this way, what really happens is that they judgement is affected subconsciously in a way that they can't defeat.

    Women end up being judged "statistically" (you've never met a woman who was strong in IT, so this one you're interviewing is unlikely to be good). And they're scrutinized more harshly (since you're more ready to accept that a man is smart, you're going to work harder to make damn sure that this woman is as smart, and what really happens is that you make the interview more difficult).

    I have biases. Many of those biases are unfair. But the only way I can defeat them is to admit them. Not to others, because it's not PC to ever express bias openly, but to myself so I can explore them and recognize how my thoughts might be unfair if I were to act upon them.

    So for instance, when interviewing, to avoid bias, I ask everyone the same questions. But I developed those questions partly by exploring my biases. For isntance, while I may assume that men and women have equal intelligence, I don't

    • Re:Note to Author: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by NeutronCowboy (896098) on Monday October 12, @12:19PM (#29720819)

      Yes, because any attempt to do anything positive that somehow relates to women is merely a desperate attempt to get laid. *rolleyes* From my experience, you're merely betraying your own attitude - that when you take a stance that somehow benefits women, it is to merely to get laid.

      • by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Monday October 12, @01:04PM (#29721629)

        Create yourself TWO new accounts. One with a name that a teen boy would choose and the other with a name that suggests that you are a girl. Go on. Do it. Right now!

        Then the NEXT time this subject comes up, post similar comments (not trolls) from BOTH accounts.

        Then compare the scores and the follow up comments from the two accounts.

        I will bet that the comment from the girl-account will be ranked higher and have more "me too" comments than the boy-account.

        Sexism in FOSS does exist. But it isn't the type described by the author.

        Just look at this discussion. How many different accounts reference the SAME handful of incidents as "proof" that there is sexism and that anyone who disagrees is somehow "bad".

        THAT alone should be enough to tell you where the real problem is.

      • by pdabbadabba (720526) on Monday October 12, @02:02PM (#29722537) Homepage

        I think this almost entirely misses the point. Feminists say that the structure of society and individuals' prejudices make it more difficult for women to succeed in (e.g.) the workplace than men. Your response to that seems to be "Get used to it. You'll get a lot farther by growing a backbone than by bitching." This is only true in the short term, if its true at all. Tomorrow's women will be better off if we, today, address the prejudices than if today's women merely "grow a backbone.

        It's also pretty shocking that you think it's mere "bitching" for women to point out and attempt to address the systematic disadvantages that they face in the workplace. Does this mean that women should only "bitch" and not try to work despite their disadvantages? Of course not. But we as a society would never get anywhere if oppressed/disadvantaged groups were expected to just deal with it without protesting the inequality. Would you have said the same thing, "Quit bitching and grow a backbone" to slaves? Where would our society be today if we all thought like you?

        This is all to say nothing of your implicit premise that both men and women catch equal amounts of flak for taking up programming, which is, I think, obviously false.

      • by Lendrick (314723) on Monday October 12, @02:35PM (#29723013) Homepage Journal

        Your generalization utterly fails to take into account the fact that there are plenty of whiny douchebag men out there who want nothing but recognition and approval. You also fail to take into account the fact that there are many women out there who are quite capable of standing on their own in the face of adversity. Take medicine, for example. Medical residents are probably one of the most mentally abused groups of people out there. They are frequently disapproved of (and called incompetent, among other things) by their superiors, and somehow a lot of women still make it through and become doctors. In that case, though, the abuse is doled out pretty much equally between the sexes.

        I don't find the mere mention of pornography to be sexist -- however, if female developers can't work with a group without being constantly hit on, asked on dates, flirted with, or otherwise weirded out, you can't really expect them to stick around. They're liable to go somewhere where they're treated with equal respect, and I can't blame them.

        • “It’s a free market world,” said Ubuntu Linux developer Hiram Nerdboy. “It’s about competence and getting the job done [today.com]. Working sixteen hours a day on a project you really love is par for the course. That we’re all eighteen to twenty-five is from the accelerated Internet-based learning of the new generation, not exploitation of young workers who don’t know any better.”

          Over a third of women in IT had complained of sexism up to sexual harassment at work. “It’s women who just don’t have social skills,” said Nerdboy. “They object to the guys freely choosing to all go down the strip club after work. They’re just not team players.”

          Open source projects have worse figures than industry, with male to female ratios approaching fifty-to-one. Many women cite gross sexism on mailing lists and IRC. “In my experience, women just don’t have a working sense of humour and can’t take a joke. My girlfriend thought it was funny! Even leaving helpful comments on their blogs didn’t work. ‘Political correctness’ is no exaggeration. Anyway, I met my girlfriend online!”

          “...,” said his girlfriend, RealDoll Ada.

          “And it’s not like you can get the applicants,” added Nerdboy. “We can hardly get any girls to apply for a job here. They’re obviously naturally not good enough geeks. It must be evolutionary. We need more pink computers.”

          “This is of course a terrible, terrible state of affairs,” said a spokesman for the Confederation of British Industry. “In the meantime, we need lots more IT workers shipped in from overseas.” He was later heard muttering something about “divide and conquer” and sniggering.

        • by SBrach (1073190) on Monday October 12, @02:34PM (#29722987)

          Guys rarely go into female only fields like nursing or pre-school teaching for the same reasons girls don't do tech

          Except that 10% of nurses are now male, rising every year. On top of that 20% of current nursing students are male, again, rising every year.

          Is it really so hard to believe that more men find electrical engineering interesting and more women find psychology interesting? Do we really have to be the same to be equal? I hope not, that would be pretty boring.

    • by nog_lorp (896553) on Monday October 12, @01:15PM (#29721817)

      That is absurd. I'm a white male, but I can say I definitely see enough racism or sexism around me to argue it is still something that needs discussion.

      The idea that you need to intentionally discriminate to be racist or sexist makes no sense, actually. Modern discrimination usually comes from stereotyping rather than some sort of hatred.

I've always considered statesmen to be more expendable than soldiers.