Ultracapacitor Bus Recharges At Each Stop 419
TechReviewAl writes "A US company and its Chinese partner are piloting a bus powered by ultracapacitors in Washington DC. Ultracapacitors lack the capacity of regular batteries but are considerably cheaper and can be recharge completely in under a minute. Sinautec Automobile Technologies, based in Arlington, VA, and its Chinese partner, Shanghai Aowei Technology Development Company, have spent the past three years demonstrating the approach with 17 municipal buses on the outskirts of Shanghai. The executive director of Sinautec touts the energy efficiency of this approach: 'Even if you use the dirtiest coal plant on the planet [to charge an ultracapacitor], it generates a third of the carbon dioxide of diesel.'"
They must be powerful... (Score:4, Funny)
the company name says it all!
*ZAP* Aowei!
Oh, first post!
Can't believe you didn't... (Score:3, Funny)
In soviet russia, ultracapacitor bus recharges YOU!
Next model (Score:5, Funny)
The Flux Supercapacitor (Score:5, Funny)
An invention from University of Texas at Austin (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/Energy%20Storage%20Composite%20Rotor.html [utexas.edu]
The University of Texas at Austin Center for Electromechanics (UT-CEM) has developed a 2 kW-hr flywheel battery for energy management on a hybrid electric urban bus. The battery will recover braking energy and store excess energy generated by the prime mover. The flywheel rotor, fabricated from high-strength composites, spins at 36,000 rpm at full charge (~825 m/s tip speed), and is housed in a vacuum enclosure to minimize windage drag. A cross-section of the flywheel system design is shown. Ensuring flywheel safety is a major issue that must be addressed in using flywheels for transportation applications. In support of this activity, the durability tests performed under Phase IV of the DARPA Flywheel Safety Program, focused on this flywheel design.
Re:An invention from University of Texas at Austin (Score:4, Interesting)
Think it'll work this time [wikipedia.org]? I kinda prefer the "solid state" nature of the capacitors.
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Flywheel energy storage is far more feasible for larger scale storage in a fixed position power applications (eg. home, light commercial, and industrial.)
In a high speed collision, if the containment vessel is breached, a flywheel can become an autonomous buzz-saw with a kill radius of several miles. Even worse, if such a breach occurred in a traffic jam, and one flywheel hits other vehicles liberating more flywheels, it would result in a chain reaction that could level an urban or suburban community.
One po
Make a brittle flywheel (Score:3, Interesting)
Make the flywheel brittle - like a ceramic or like those shotgun rounds that disintegrate when breaching a door. That way if containment is breached, it turns into powder.
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This is how modern flywheel energy storage [wikipedia.org] works. The rotor is typically made out of carbon fiber or a composite thread wound around a shaft - if the rotor's integrity is lost, it turns into red-hot slag instead of leveling half a city block. Even so, most large flywheels are in a bunker underground encased in several feet of concrete. For it to be safe in a vehicle the containment vessel has to be very strong and also lightweight - which means it'll be expensive, unfortunately.
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For [a flywheel] to be safe in a vehicle the containment vessel has to be very strong and also lightweight - which means it'll be expensive, unfortunately.
Research in this area has been encouraged within the space of F1 motor racing. The aim is exactly that if there is a containment breach (relatively likely in a crash in F1, which isn't exactly the world's safest sport) then the flywheel turns to dust rather than killing the driver. Something like that sounds like what's needed for the bus application...
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They had rows and rows of drum store, each a 1/4 ton cylinder, maybe 1m diameter, rotating at 20,000 rpm. Fixed heads running in a strip down the side, a form of memory somewhere between main and disk, allowing full memory dumps during crash.
They used to take 3 hrs to power up, and Univac engineers used to describe how, if they came off their bearings the outcome was called 'creaming'.
Apparently one came off on a site and '
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I maintained a smaller, IBM drum unit, mounted on a military plane. I often wonder what it would be like to work on a modern implementation. Imagine, zero seek times, less than 1ms access times, and parallel reads possibly from every track at once (if the bus would allow it).
The system I worked on was a whopping 12Mhz minicomputer... and it's 60's era drum unit was actually faster than any magnetic storage available today (for random reads and writes), I did the math once and it could sustain well over 20
Until... (Score:5, Insightful)
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go fetch.
Re:Until... (Score:4, Informative)
Done and done.
http://pppad.blogspot.com/2007/05/nimh-held-hostage-by-chevron-texaco.html
Re:Until... (Score:5, Informative)
He won, because you didn't refute the points in his link, but instead gone into a whiny wharrgrbl mode that losers usually do.
Now, its your turn to prove that energy companies don't hold back technological progress to save their oil business.
Otherwise, the other guy is beating you.
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the negotiated terms did not have any bearing on the global market and looks a hell of a lot more like a battery division trying to make money off batteries and failing than it does any giant conspiracy.
if you are looking for wharrgble look no further than OP's blog link. from the front page
Re:Until... (Score:4, Informative)
1. Exxon records huge profits this year amidst recession: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/30/AR2009013003744.html [washingtonpost.com]
Why not help us out and lower oil prices? Or show interest in alternative energy besides publicity stunts?
2. Exxon's own website: http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Lubes/Products_Services/Products_Services_Collection.asp [exxon.com]
Not a single service regarding 'green energy'. And this company make billions, but where are the alternative energy options? They don't care. They have the monopoly among many others in the OPEC conglomerate.
3. "In this class action, the class representatives proved that Exxon failed to provide the agreed reduction in wholesale prices...":
http://www.exxondealerclassaction.com/faq.php3 [exxondeale...action.com]
4. Exxon buys out global-warming, green energy think tank, denies global worming: http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/02/news/companies/exxon_science/index.htm [cnn.com]
5. Exxon flips on global warming because the rockafeller tell them they will lose money: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/28/climatechange.fossilfuels [guardian.co.uk]
6. Exxon contaminates water amidst its own scientist suggestions otherwise: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125598438080394827.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs [wsj.com]
7. Oil Congress: http://www.exxposeexxon.com/ExxonMobil_politics.html [exxposeexxon.com]
8. Overall campaign contributions: http://www.campaignmoney.com/exxon_mobil.asp [campaignmoney.com]
7. I know correlation is not causation, but consider the following: Exxon is the largest publicly traded oil company: finance.yahoo.com
They even state that on their own website. They have flip-flopped on global warming to please politicians, so they can please their constituency. They have donated money to people who have money in their company. Lets see, largest traded oil company, has Washington in it's back pocket, they protect their financial interest over anything else.
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1. Exxon "owns" 1% of the world's reserves and produces only 3% of the world's oil. Astonishing as it may seem, they are really bit players compared to the big national oil companies. Even if they wanted to, Exxon couldn't have lowered the price of oil in the market overall. As far as showing interest in green energy, my opinion is that it's their choice on what they want to support, what they consider a good investment for their m
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1. The company made a profit during a recession? Well hell, that's the last thing we need anyone doing for our economy during a recession. How are we ever going to get out of a recession if these companies keep trying to make money ?!
2.I don't recall the mandate that every company be required to have a green energy division. Exxon is not your keeper or steward, their not responsible for look
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Re:Until... (Score:5, Interesting)
nice tin foil hat.
Here's a real world example http://greentransportandenergy.blogspot.com/2009/03/great-importance-of-wheel-motors.html [blogspot.com]
They had a working prototype, they approached Detroit to get their making-cars expertise... and the project gets quickly scrapped for no apparent reason.
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There's a small problem with those... unstrung weight is really bad for handling, braking, and ride quality.
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There's a small problem with those... unstrung weight is really bad for handling, braking, and ride quality.
I don't know what unstrung weight refers to in cars... but as far as that prototype I linked about, it had a computer controlling the 4 wheel motors, which was really good for handling, braking, accelerating and ride quality.
Re:Until... (Score:5, Informative)
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He meant Unsprung Weight, or the weight of the wheel and suspension and associated components.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_weight [wikipedia.org]
Ah, thanks for that info. I have no idea how the in-wheel weight affected the vibrations, but the computer control was meant to achieve high performance in acceleration (they had a nice demo on gravel, quite impressive), braking and handling (redistributing force one four wheel motors), which would compensate for that effect.
And let's not forget that the motors are the brakes, and there is no drive shaft, etc.
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which would compensate for that effect
I think you misunderstood.
Unsprung weight needs to be controlled in motion by suspension and steering. So, geater unsprung weight has a negative impact on the handing of the vehicle.
Not so much to do with acceleration and braking (though wheel weight and rotational inertia does come into it).
As you point out, there are some advantages to the motor-in-wheel design which hopefully outweigh the negatives.
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Is there any patent involved in the invention that you know of?
If there is, then there's no point of further research, since the patent holder would exert their right over everything else.
Yup, either Hydro-Québec [wikipedia.org] or it's subsidiary TM4 [wikipedia.org] holds the patents. Probably TM4, since it was created specifically to handle that technology.
Re:Until... (Score:5, Interesting)
So what they need to do is reduce the weight of these independent motors, or find a way to place the suspension within the wheel assembly itself. Some kind of circular leaf spring assembly comes immediately to mind. Imagine a wheel axel, surrounded by springs rather than hard 'spokes' that connect it to the rubber.
Kind of a 2 state suspension system with a small leaf spring system between the actual rubber and the motor, and then a heavier duty suspension between the axels and the rest of the car.
Interesting? Doesn't work (Score:3, Informative)
The solution, found in the 20th century, was the constant velocity joint. Tinfoil hat not needed. They went to Detroit and some old guy in the SAE said "folks, we tried that and it was a very bad idea
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Is there a way to remedy the unsprung weight problem?
a flat road with no bumps, or rail.
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And they helped kill streetcars [wikipedia.org]. Of course, that was in conjunction with general motors and many others, but they've also had around 80 years to evolve even better strategies for killing better options.
Anyone who trusts large companies to serve the public's best interest and willingly engage in competition they might lose should -put on- a tinfoil hat, one shaped like a cone that says "dunce" on it.
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From working with industrial automation, I can tell you that trying to synchronize motion between two independently controlled electric motors, with independent loads, is a nightmare. With modern control hardware we are getting better, but we are not there yet. In 1995, I sure that the could make it look good for some tests, but there was no control system fast enough or smart enough to handle it.
Without even looking at the automotive side, i would kill to have a system that can manage multiple electric m
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sometime in the 90's all the issues of timing, etc started becoming fairly mundane tasks for motion controllers. Today anyone can buy motor controllers from hobby stores that can maintain pretty tight torque specifications. My RC plane has a less than $100 VFD drive controller in it capable of pretty good torque control, and weighing a few ounces (we did a first robotics project using these for a skid steered bot.)
For higher HP I have purchased motion controllers from automation direct for a few grand tha
Re:Until... (Score:5, Interesting)
as a engineer having worked on mining trucks for 12years with wheel motors, that page seams very guilty of avoiding context. Komatsu (mostly GE), Liehbier (Siemiens+GE), and Caterpillar all have wheel motored mining vehicles in production. 1) They show no gearing reduction, electric motors are generally very in-efficient at high torque, they mostly run at around 40:1 reduction in real world car app, this kind of gearing reduction is very pricey to create for high torques without lots of space. 2) Electric motors require a very large current to produce those torques (especially if no gearing reduction) and/or lots of windings (lots of weight) big wiring, and difficult power supplies 3) they show no room for excitation of the rotor, this means permanent magnets = rare earth magnets = $$$ + dense weight. 4) very small bearing surface area, lots of spinning mass = lots of momentum = lots of torque when turning, bumps, etc. Front wheels sounds like a very bad idea. 5) single efficiency number is suspicious, as stated above torque is poor efficiency, I do believe the efficiency at higher speeds but not at high torque. 6) sealing against weather/dirt/mud. Even if they get only 4% loss, good luck with cooling that and sealing it at the same time, without dumping the heat into the tires which will already be under trouble (see the suspended weight = extra tire abuse) 7) still no economical battery choice that can make electric cheaper than diesel over the lifetime of a battery.
That said, I want 2 for my 1970 2WD truck. It has room for them, and I could slap them on get regen braking, and emergency 4WD help. I don't need much help, and since 80% of braking energy is slowing from 75mph to 25mph so I don't care about the torque/efficiency from 25 to 0.
Re:Until... (Score:5, Informative)
I guess I should say how the mining application is different. They are RWD only, with motors inside dually wheels, with a solid axle box between duallys. This gives spacing to the bearings, room for gearing reduction, a good sealed box to push cooling air around everything. Also all diesel generator powered (no batteries) or trolley operated. The suspension is mostly the tires, which limits time at speed. They can go 40+ MPH, but not loaded for anything more than a few minutes, when they stop to dump and reload (may spend half their time loaded, but for short enough times to avoid too much heat buildup.) And only on well maintained roads, at least relative to the diameter of the tires and max speeds allowed.
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Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] says "Electric vehicles can also use a direct motor-to-wheel configuration which increases the amount of available power. Having multiple motors connected directly to the wheels allows for each of the wheels to be used for both propulsion and as braking systems, thereby increasing traction. In some cases, the motor can be housed directly in the wheel, such as in the Whispering Wheel design, which lowers the vehicle's center of gravity and reduces the number of moving parts. When not fitted with an
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As both an Navy Electrician's Mate (We work on electric motors and electrical distribution on ships) and now an Electrical Engineering major, I can say that electric motors are commonly used in high-load applications because they are efficient at high speeds and low torque.
A diesel-electric train likely runs the electric motor at high speeds (1200+ rpm) and uses a gearing system for the necessary torque. Using the wheel of a vehicle as the rotor naturally precludes this option, and is therefore a terrible s
The fat guy sang too Re:Until... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.gizmag.com/michelin-active-wheel-production-electric-car-by-2010/10489/ [gizmag.com]
Re:Until... (Score:5, Interesting)
I actually asked a fellow I know who works at Tesla about wheel motors. He basically said it's a bad idea from a performance and handling point of view. The additional weight in the wheels makes the suspension less effective and means that the effect of going over a bump will be a lot harsher. Besides, he said it also would add a lot to the cost since now instead of one motor you need two or four, as well as two or four inverters and a lot more complicated control software. This also would add more weight since each motor needs its own set of magnets and housing. Cooling can also be a problem. It's much cheaper to just use a differential and axles which typically have very little loss with the advantage that the weight is shifted to the car body. It also makes it easy to do things like water cooling for the motor. I suppose one could still use multiple motors located in the body and use axles to get rid of all of the mass in the wheels, but it still adds a lot of unnecessary complexity to the control system and additional cost and less reliability.
Isn't this the same as a trolley? (Score:4, Insightful)
If so, then what's the difference between this and, say, a mini-trolley? I mean, hell, why not ultracapacitor golf carts or something?
Re:Isn't this the same as a trolley? (Score:5, Interesting)
We have trams (light rail) here in Melbourne. Maybe if you ran the numbers you could take away the overhead cables from most of the network and just charge the trams at stops and intersections. Might be cheaper overall that way.
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Also, rails and cables don't make sense for a stop that will enver see more than 10 passengers in the outskirts of a city. The economics allow these buses better scalability. This would be nice in the US where suberbia reigns supreme. The only form of mass transit that really works in a city with low land value like mine is buses, because the houses are so spread out.
Re:Isn't this the same as a trolley? (Score:5, Insightful)
The advantage with a bus is that its much easier to add new stops and routes. You only have to build up the charging station, whereas with a trolley, one has to tear up the road, put in tracks, and build stations.
Re:Isn't this the same as a trolley? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's both an advantage and a disadvantage, though. It's not only easier to add stops and routes, but to change or remove them. That makes the value of the transit to property owners considerably less--- someone might put up a condo building next to a metro station, confident that the station will be there for decades, but nobody is going to bank on a bus line.
Re:Isn't this the same as a trolley? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, this still has the issue of having to build (electricity) lines over the entire route. Here, you can localize the charging to only the bus stops, which reduces the infrastructure costs of getting the system going.
Re:Isn't this the same as a trolley? (Score:4, Interesting)
Perhaps I'm looking at it wrong but I look at it as saying the use of trolleys attracts economic development like the parable of the broken window, by breaking a window glass you're creating work for the glass maker. However in reality breaking the glass only diverts money when it can be used for a better purpose. Instead of the kid getting the shoes he needs the money is now spent on glass.
That's not exactly true. The economic development argument states that the presence of a streetcar line increases foot traffic in that area, which tends to increase the customer base for local businesses. Its a small scale version of the argument that justifies the presence of highways. By making transportation easier (via infrastructure improvements) the government allows commerce to flow more quickly and cheaply, increasing economic activity by reducing transaction costs.
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A trolley/streetcar line reduces the vehicle capacity of the road it travels along.
How? You can pave the area around the tracks [wikipedia.org].
if driving is sufficiently difficult suburban dwellers (like me) will choose to stop going downtown rather than put up with the inconvenience of massively crowded streets.
The city dwellers already have streets crowded with your cars. Every extra person in a tram (rather than their own car) is more road space for you!
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Aren't these, in the end, pretty much the same as a trolley? The bus is really a mini-bus that holds 11 people. It uses 40% as much electricity as a trolley. If you expanded the bus to hold as many people as a trolley can, wouldn't the increase in size and weight (both bus weight and passenger weight) make it use more energy?
If so, then what's the difference between this and, say, a mini-trolley? I mean, hell, why not ultracapacitor golf carts or something?
Removes the moving-part-inefficiency, disruption, inconvenience, installation cost, maintenance cost, and unsightliness of overhead wires. I'm guessing that these charging ports would be cheaper to install and maintain.
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A bus can drive anywhere. A trolley (as in a real trolley) draws its power continuously from wires. Thus it can only follow predefined routes that require extensive (and expensive and dangerous) infrastructure. This type of fast-charging capacitor system is sort of like a hybrid combining the best features of autonomous buses and externally powered trolleys.
No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
The gasoline-filled tank is under the seats? Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll take a pennyfarthing, thank you.
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Springs and the support post are under the seat? Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll take a horse, thank you.
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Sharp vertebrae and powerful acids are under the seat? Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll take a trusty pair of boots, thank you.
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Sharp rocks and powerful scorpions are under the feet? Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll be carried around on my royal litter, thank you.
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Inherently unstable bipedal locomotion under the hip? Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll stick to swinging around on vines, thank you.
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Limited stop options and the serious risk of drowning? Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll take a Ultracapacitor Bus which recharges at each stop, thank you.
Re:No, thanks (Score:4, Insightful)
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Springs and the support post are under the seat? Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll take a horse, thank you.
NO SPRINGS! [youtube.com]
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Unless you're in the US. Every time I'm there I see someone on the side of the road with a car fire. What's with your shoddy cars that they just burst into flames?
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Re:burning cars (Score:4, Insightful)
For this very reason I hate mandatory seatbelt laws, if there's the possibility someone will burn to death they should have the choice as to whether or not they will wear a seatbelt.
If you don't wear a seatbelt, you may suffer additional injuries that prevent you from escaping a burning car. You will also be worse off in any accident that does not involve a car fire. A much better solution is to wear your damn seatbelt and carry one of these [lifehammer.com] in the car.
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Today's XKCD is extremely topical:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/bag_check.png
Re:No, thanks (Score:5, Interesting)
The cap's are under the seats?! Call me old fashioned (and it won't be the first time) but I'll take a cab, thank you.
"You can't get people to sit over an explosion."
--Colonel Albert A. Pope, 1890s bicycle and electric car mogul, on the newly introduced internal combustion engines.
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been saying this for years (Score:5, Insightful)
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I can see the design review meeting now... (Score:5, Funny)
Engineer: Sorry, the idea didn't pan out. The battery works, but it's got no capacity. Useless.
Marketing Guy: What do you mean, no capacity? It can't be zero if it works, right?
Engineer: Sure, but it gets drained in seconds by any sort of circuit.
Marketing Guy: They recharge as fast as they drain, right?
Engineer: Yeah, sure. but...
Marketing Guy: "Recharges in under a minute". Nothing on the market can match it. When can we ship in volume?
Wow (Score:3, Insightful)
High potential (Score:3, Insightful)
For urban locations where stops are seldom more than a block or two apart this makes for lower infrastructure costs, as no over-street trolly cables are needed.
The ability to alter routes would also be fairly flexible because you could tie into the power grid anywhere you need to add a station.
But the amount of power you need to deliver in a short time means that the stations have to have either the ability to acquire and store a massive charge in the between-bus intervals, (their own ultra-capacitors) or the grid inter-tie would really have to be massive enough to dump that much power into the bus in a couple minutes, for as many buses as you need to send down the line in rush hour.
A shorted capacitor might be fearsome fireworks display.
What happens in a traffic jam? (Score:3, Insightful)
I imagine the streets of many major cities may wind up getting traffic jams very frequently, so what happens if the bus gets stuck in such a one, and it takes an hour or more to get moving again (e.g. vehicular accident further down), or however long it takes to discharge the ultracapacitors? I suppose it may be necessary to install a backup engine that runs on conventional fuel, possibly just to run a generator which will charge the ultracapacitors sufficiently to get to the next stop.
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it shouldn't use any power just sitting there. capacitors do slowly discharge of their own accord, but an hour in a traffic jam shouldn't be a problem. they will have to turn off the a/c though.
Re:What happens in a traffic jam? (Score:5, Informative)
Most caps can store charge for months or even years. They can store both high current and high voltage, but cannot deliver a sustained current. In that respect they're a bit like a high pressure air tank, where the gas doesn't change state to a liquid in the tank. (like CO2 does, those are called "constant air" tanks, and are more akin to lead acid batteries because they maintain their pressure until almost exhausted) Like an air tank can retain pressure for months without significant loss as long as there's no leak, so can capacitors.
I work on HV equipment and am all too aware of how capacitors (and things that behave like them... picture tubes in particular) can retain several hundred volts (life threatening) of power for months. Always have to discharge them before working on them, even if they HAVE been unplugged for a month.
Buses I've been on aren't known for their air conditioning anyway. When the bus is idling in a jam it's just sitting there and consuming almost zero of its power reserves.
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Or even better, activate the compressors of the air conditioners only on bus stops. ...However, I'm sort of worried what will happen if the traffic jam is so horrible that the bus runs something around 5km/h, with constant acceleration/deacceleration.
No US company involved here.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Sinautec, as I suspected, is a Chinese firm, with an office in VA.
http://www.sinautecus.com/contact.html [sinautecus.com]
...except the one that makes the busses (Score:5, Informative)
Page 2 of TFA:
PIloting a Bus (Score:2)
That's nice that "A US company and its Chinese partner" are piloting the bus, but I think it would be much more interesting to know who designed and built it.
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That's nice that "A US company and its Chinese partner" are piloting the bus, but I think it would be much more interesting to know who designed and built it.
Chinese did, and that "US company" is also Chinese. Now shut up and go to Walmart buy more Chinese stuff.
energy density (Score:4, Informative)
The ultracapacitors are made of activated carbon and have an energy density of six watt-hours per kilogram. (For comparison, a high-performance lithium-ion battery can achieve 200 watt-hours per kilogram.) Clifford Clare, chief executive of Foton America, says another 60 buses will be delivered early next year with ultracapacitors that supply 10 watt-hours per kilogram.
Or, to put this in more sensible terms. 0.021MJ/kg (0.036MJ/kg next year) for an ultracap vs 0.72MJ/kg for a lithium-ion battery. Aka, the tiny bottom left square in this chart [wikipedia.org]. Compare this to, say, gasoline at 47MJ/kg or even hydrogen at 142MJ/kg and you start to get some idea of why people are excited about "the hydrogen economy".
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or even hydrogen at 142MJ/kg and you start to get some idea of why people are excited about "the hydrogen economy".
Call me when there's a cheap way to store 30kg of hydrogen at STP in a form that can easily be used and stored onboard in a vehicle for at least 4 weeks without losses.
Re:energy density (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, now state the energy-to-mass and energy-to-volume figures of the gasoline PLUS gas tank versus that of the hydrogen PLUS storage matrix. Fact is, petroleum or synfuel equivalent is the most volume-efficient storage mechanism for hydrogen yet devised - not even counting the contribution of the carbon content. One liter of gasoline contains a higher mass of hydrogen than one liter of liquid hydrogen.
State of the art hydrogen storage systems have a container mass 10x the mass of the contained hydrogen, versus around 0.1x for gasoline tanks. Compressing or liquefying the hydrogen saps a huge amount of the theoretical energy efficiency of the system.
When you add container weight, petroleum is the most MASS-efficient storage mechanism for hydrogen.
one point missed, tech lifespan (Score:4, Informative)
Last I checked, capacitors have a very long lifespan, many many years compared to what, 5-10 for lead acid and lithium ion. They don't get memory, their performance doesn't degrade over time. And unlike lead acid, they don't mind the vibrations and jolts of being in a vehicle. I'm not aware of any severe temp restrictions on them either - I know for certain that hotter areas of the country have to have different kinds of batteries because of how heat kills batteries. (moreso than cold)
So that makes them cheaper to run since you don't have to change out batteries for many thousands of dollars every 5-7 years like you do on the hybrid cars.
How...... (Score:3, Interesting)
Petroleum diesel C16H34 or C14H30
Coal Errrrrr C with variable trace quantities of S, H, O and N.
Subcritical fossil fuel power plants can achieve 36–40% efficiency. Supercritical designs have efficiencies in the low to mid 40% range, with new "ultra critical" designs using pressures of 4,400 psi (30 MPa) and dual stage reheat reaching about 48% efficiency.
Ideal diesel efficiency of 56%, but lets stay sane, I keep hearing more along the lines of 35% (Probably BS but real numbers have been banished/obfuscated/hidden somewhere)
Factor in 15% to 50% (extreme) grid transmission loss, and (ops) 5% to 10% electric motor loss.
Love the idea of a Ultra Capacitor for a Hybrid, just stop saying silly things. Less CO2, you're funny.
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Capacitors could also be used to buffer the output from wind and solar power. Maybe your public transport could be programmed to only draw power in then seconds when wind power is available.
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Why would you be dead at a red light? If you're not moving then you're motors are drawing power.
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What I think it'd do instead is be like a hybrid that has the ability to recharge at every bus stop.
That's exactly the sort of thing this system does. Each stop has a set of overhead lines that allow the bus to recharge its capacitors enough to get to the next stop.
But then again, what provides the electricity? If it's more fossil fuels, then it's not being green; it's cutting diesel costs.
From the summary: "Even if you use the dirtiest coal plant on the planet [to charge an ultracapacitor], it generates a third of the carbon dioxide of diesel."
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if that cap explodes, i could see it being very very bad.
If the fuel tank explodes...
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isn't the voltage across ultracapacitors really large with a large charge? if that cap explodes, i could see it being very very bad.
also what about times when the bus doesn't need to pick up or drop of passengers? just stop the bus anyways?
Don't they stop for traffic lights anyway? Don't see how much difference that'd make.
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Dude, if you want to prevent supercapacitors from growing in popularity you should stop finding new uses for them.
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Would make more sense to have a backup battery.