Ultracapacitor Bus Recharges At Each Stop 419
TechReviewAl writes "A US company and its Chinese partner are piloting a bus powered by ultracapacitors in Washington DC. Ultracapacitors lack the capacity of regular batteries but are considerably cheaper and can be recharge completely in under a minute. Sinautec Automobile Technologies, based in Arlington, VA, and its Chinese partner, Shanghai Aowei Technology Development Company, have spent the past three years demonstrating the approach with 17 municipal buses on the outskirts of Shanghai. The executive director of Sinautec touts the energy efficiency of this approach: 'Even if you use the dirtiest coal plant on the planet [to charge an ultracapacitor], it generates a third of the carbon dioxide of diesel.'"
Re:Until... (Score:4, Informative)
Done and done.
http://pppad.blogspot.com/2007/05/nimh-held-hostage-by-chevron-texaco.html
Re:Title goes here (Score:3, Informative)
What I think it'd do instead is be like a hybrid that has the ability to recharge at every bus stop.
That's exactly the sort of thing this system does. Each stop has a set of overhead lines that allow the bus to recharge its capacitors enough to get to the next stop.
But then again, what provides the electricity? If it's more fossil fuels, then it's not being green; it's cutting diesel costs.
From the summary: "Even if you use the dirtiest coal plant on the planet [to charge an ultracapacitor], it generates a third of the carbon dioxide of diesel."
Re:What happens in a traffic jam? (Score:2, Informative)
it shouldn't use any power just sitting there. capacitors do slowly discharge of their own accord, but an hour in a traffic jam shouldn't be a problem. they will have to turn off the a/c though.
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
There's a small problem with those... unstrung weight is really bad for handling, braking, and ride quality.
energy density (Score:4, Informative)
The ultracapacitors are made of activated carbon and have an energy density of six watt-hours per kilogram. (For comparison, a high-performance lithium-ion battery can achieve 200 watt-hours per kilogram.) Clifford Clare, chief executive of Foton America, says another 60 buses will be delivered early next year with ultracapacitors that supply 10 watt-hours per kilogram.
Or, to put this in more sensible terms. 0.021MJ/kg (0.036MJ/kg next year) for an ultracap vs 0.72MJ/kg for a lithium-ion battery. Aka, the tiny bottom left square in this chart [wikipedia.org]. Compare this to, say, gasoline at 47MJ/kg or even hydrogen at 142MJ/kg and you start to get some idea of why people are excited about "the hydrogen economy".
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
And they helped kill streetcars [wikipedia.org]. Of course, that was in conjunction with general motors and many others, but they've also had around 80 years to evolve even better strategies for killing better options.
Anyone who trusts large companies to serve the public's best interest and willingly engage in competition they might lose should -put on- a tinfoil hat, one shaped like a cone that says "dunce" on it.
Re:Until... (Score:5, Informative)
one point missed, tech lifespan (Score:4, Informative)
Last I checked, capacitors have a very long lifespan, many many years compared to what, 5-10 for lead acid and lithium ion. They don't get memory, their performance doesn't degrade over time. And unlike lead acid, they don't mind the vibrations and jolts of being in a vehicle. I'm not aware of any severe temp restrictions on them either - I know for certain that hotter areas of the country have to have different kinds of batteries because of how heat kills batteries. (moreso than cold)
So that makes them cheaper to run since you don't have to change out batteries for many thousands of dollars every 5-7 years like you do on the hybrid cars.
Re:What happens in a traffic jam? (Score:5, Informative)
Most caps can store charge for months or even years. They can store both high current and high voltage, but cannot deliver a sustained current. In that respect they're a bit like a high pressure air tank, where the gas doesn't change state to a liquid in the tank. (like CO2 does, those are called "constant air" tanks, and are more akin to lead acid batteries because they maintain their pressure until almost exhausted) Like an air tank can retain pressure for months without significant loss as long as there's no leak, so can capacitors.
I work on HV equipment and am all too aware of how capacitors (and things that behave like them... picture tubes in particular) can retain several hundred volts (life threatening) of power for months. Always have to discharge them before working on them, even if they HAVE been unplugged for a month.
Buses I've been on aren't known for their air conditioning anyway. When the bus is idling in a jam it's just sitting there and consuming almost zero of its power reserves.
Re:Until... (Score:5, Informative)
He won, because you didn't refute the points in his link, but instead gone into a whiny wharrgrbl mode that losers usually do.
Now, its your turn to prove that energy companies don't hold back technological progress to save their oil business.
Otherwise, the other guy is beating you.
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
Is there any patent involved in the invention that you know of?
If there is, then there's no point of further research, since the patent holder would exert their right over everything else.
Yup, either Hydro-Québec [wikipedia.org] or it's subsidiary TM4 [wikipedia.org] holds the patents. Probably TM4, since it was created specifically to handle that technology.
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
the negotiated terms did not have any bearing on the global market and looks a hell of a lot more like a battery division trying to make money off batteries and failing than it does any giant conspiracy.
if you are looking for wharrgble look no further than OP's blog link. from the front page
I am not the one making retarded claims and OP still hasn't provided any viable support to his claim.
Re:Until... (Score:2, Informative)
I'd be picking the motors might be technically in-wheel (or near enough) but aren't actually unsprung. They'd still likely require a gear reduction anyway, so wouldn't be a direct coupling from motor axle to wheel axle. They'll be "in-wheel" only so much as that is intuitive in a marketing sense i.e. one independent motor per wheel mounted at/near - but not "on" - the wheel axle.
Re:Until... (Score:4, Informative)
1. Exxon records huge profits this year amidst recession: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/30/AR2009013003744.html [washingtonpost.com]
Why not help us out and lower oil prices? Or show interest in alternative energy besides publicity stunts?
2. Exxon's own website: http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Lubes/Products_Services/Products_Services_Collection.asp [exxon.com]
Not a single service regarding 'green energy'. And this company make billions, but where are the alternative energy options? They don't care. They have the monopoly among many others in the OPEC conglomerate.
3. "In this class action, the class representatives proved that Exxon failed to provide the agreed reduction in wholesale prices...":
http://www.exxondealerclassaction.com/faq.php3 [exxondeale...action.com]
4. Exxon buys out global-warming, green energy think tank, denies global worming: http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/02/news/companies/exxon_science/index.htm [cnn.com]
5. Exxon flips on global warming because the rockafeller tell them they will lose money: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/28/climatechange.fossilfuels [guardian.co.uk]
6. Exxon contaminates water amidst its own scientist suggestions otherwise: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125598438080394827.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs [wsj.com]
7. Oil Congress: http://www.exxposeexxon.com/ExxonMobil_politics.html [exxposeexxon.com]
8. Overall campaign contributions: http://www.campaignmoney.com/exxon_mobil.asp [campaignmoney.com]
7. I know correlation is not causation, but consider the following: Exxon is the largest publicly traded oil company: finance.yahoo.com
They even state that on their own website. They have flip-flopped on global warming to please politicians, so they can please their constituency. They have donated money to people who have money in their company. Lets see, largest traded oil company, has Washington in it's back pocket, they protect their financial interest over anything else.
Re:Until... (Score:5, Informative)
I guess I should say how the mining application is different. They are RWD only, with motors inside dually wheels, with a solid axle box between duallys. This gives spacing to the bearings, room for gearing reduction, a good sealed box to push cooling air around everything. Also all diesel generator powered (no batteries) or trolley operated. The suspension is mostly the tires, which limits time at speed. They can go 40+ MPH, but not loaded for anything more than a few minutes, when they stop to dump and reload (may spend half their time loaded, but for short enough times to avoid too much heat buildup.) And only on well maintained roads, at least relative to the diameter of the tires and max speeds allowed.
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] says "Electric vehicles can also use a direct motor-to-wheel configuration which increases the amount of available power. Having multiple motors connected directly to the wheels allows for each of the wheels to be used for both propulsion and as braking systems, thereby increasing traction. In some cases, the motor can be housed directly in the wheel, such as in the Whispering Wheel design, which lowers the vehicle's center of gravity and reduces the number of moving parts. When not fitted with an axle, differential, or transmission, electric vehicles have less drivetrain rotational inertia."
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
sometime in the 90's all the issues of timing, etc started becoming fairly mundane tasks for motion controllers. Today anyone can buy motor controllers from hobby stores that can maintain pretty tight torque specifications. My RC plane has a less than $100 VFD drive controller in it capable of pretty good torque control, and weighing a few ounces (we did a first robotics project using these for a skid steered bot.)
For higher HP I have purchased motion controllers from automation direct for a few grand that can be setup in a torque following configuration (and controlled over a communications buss with 100ms response times.)
Now packing in 4 separate VFD drives (assuming these are AC) along with all the other needed wiring is going to eat up alott of space. Going DC would be easier, the DC drive trucks I worked with just wired the motors in series, that kept torque fairly well balanced.
Actually the IGBT electric drive vehicles have much better traction control than mechanical drive, because they can change their response a few hundred times a second if needed, measuring acceleration responses to precisely measured torques (just measure the current.)
...except the one that makes the busses (Score:5, Informative)
Page 2 of TFA:
Re:An invention from University of Texas at Austin (Score:3, Informative)
They had rows and rows of drum store, each a 1/4 ton cylinder, maybe 1m diameter, rotating at 20,000 rpm. Fixed heads running in a strip down the side, a form of memory somewhere between main and disk, allowing full memory dumps during crash.
They used to take 3 hrs to power up, and Univac engineers used to describe how, if they came off their bearings the outcome was called 'creaming'.
Apparently one came off on a site and 'walked' out of the machine room, pausing only to stroll through a CAU (command Arithmetic Unit - a device as big as a wardrobe), another drilled down through a building.
Interesting? Doesn't work (Score:3, Informative)
The solution, found in the 20th century, was the constant velocity joint. Tinfoil hat not needed. They went to Detroit and some old guy in the SAE said "folks, we tried that and it was a very bad idea because..."
Car makers have had over a hundred years of experience of what does, and what doesn't work. They don't suppress technology because it might replace theirs - everybody wants a technology lead. They just don't buy stuff that doesn't work.
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
As both an Navy Electrician's Mate (We work on electric motors and electrical distribution on ships) and now an Electrical Engineering major, I can say that electric motors are commonly used in high-load applications because they are efficient at high speeds and low torque.
A diesel-electric train likely runs the electric motor at high speeds (1200+ rpm) and uses a gearing system for the necessary torque. Using the wheel of a vehicle as the rotor naturally precludes this option, and is therefore a terrible solution.
Re:Until... (Score:3, Informative)
1. The company made a profit during a recession? Well hell, that's the last thing we need anyone doing for our economy during a recession. How are we ever going to get out of a recession if these companies keep trying to make money ?!
2.I don't recall the mandate that every company be required to have a green energy division. Exxon is not your keeper or steward, their not responsible for looking out for your best interests. They're a company, their job is to sell a product and make money. How much money has Red Hat and Apple put into researching bio-fuels and wind farms? What companies are required to do so in order to not be considered evil?
3. I don't even know how this is even remotely related. It's dealing with a complaint that Exxon isn't providing the correct amount of discount for customers paying with cash versus using a credit card. What does cash vs credit card discounts have to do with squashing green energy technology/progress?
4. Exxon offers money to scientists to research and find problems with research about a topic that affects their business. Whoopdeefuckingdoo.
5. Now Exxon agreeing with you about global warming makes them evil, when them disagreeing with you made them evil before. I'm sure if they were 'neutral' on the matter they would be evilly standing by while the world suffered as well.
6. Exxon Mobile is successfully fined millions of dollars by the City of New York in a trial after they broke a law.
Bad thing for a company to do? yes
Demonstrative of squashing a green technology? No
Demonstrative of ability to get local officials in their back pockets to avoid things they don't want? Exactly the opposite
7&8. companies contribute campaign money. OK, this is kind of broad, a lot of companies do, care to elaborate which of these campaign contributions stopped all this federally funded green technology research that's going on?
7 version 2: They've changed their minds on the global warming issues to please politicians so politicians can please us? So.....their listening to our concerns and wants because their interested in making money? Sounds like a good thing for us.