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YouTube Explains Where HTML5 Video Fails

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  • by elrous0 (869638) * on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @09:41AM (#32743550)

    Is the video tag in HTML5 a kludge? Yes. Is it more an ideal than a practical implementation? Sure. Can it compete with a commercial product that has been an accepted part of the web for over 10 years now? Perhaps not. Is it poorly implemented [wikipedia.org] in most modern browsers, with no agreed upon video codec [arstechnica.com] common to any two of them? Yep. Would it be getting any attention at all if Steve Jobs hadn't used it as part of his cheap excuse to block free flash apps from his iControlU line of products? Not likely.

    But all that's missing the point. The point is that it's *OPEN* and not under the control of any nasty for-profit corporation. And that makes it superior. Who *cares* if it doesn't work worth a damn in actual practice?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Yvanhoe (564877)

      But all that's missing the point. The point is that it's *OPEN* and not under the control of any nasty for-profit corporation. And that makes it superior. Who *cares* if it doesn't work worth a damn in actual practice?

      That. MP3 became the de facto standard despite the existence of far better quality formats for the exact same reason. We currently have to choose between two kludges, badly implemented possibilities, one of them being open. The choice is easy to make.

      • by waambulance (1766146) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @09:59AM (#32743816)
        yes. the "choice is easy to make" because *you* arent creating content. only consuming it.
        • by Svartalf (2997) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:24AM (#32744116) Homepage

          Specious argument, really.

          Content "creation" with Flash is really a poor substitute for the real tools that are completely available on all the mainstream OSes- to the point of some of the better answers being available for free or next to it on all of the aforementioned.

          If you're doing "content creation" on something like Haiku, I might understand slightly, but you should already understand that you might be on your own on things like this if you choose to run things like Haiku and other up-and-coming OSes.

          "Creating content" is a straw man.

          • by jfengel (409917)

            For YouTube, the content creation isn't done on Flash. It's done in a video editor.

            Flash is, however, the content delivery system, and that's of interest to the content creators. Or at least, the content deliverers, like YouTube. And both care a lot more about getting the content delivered to the vast majority of potential users than any other concerns.

        • by Yvanhoe (564877) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:34AM (#32744302) Journal
          Er... Are you implying that making a video available through a tag is somehow harder than through a flash app ? Care to elaborate what you mean by that ? Because using html5 with youtube is actually a few clicks operation : http://www.youtube.com/html5 [youtube.com]
      • by sobachatina (635055) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:05AM (#32743884)

        Not trying to be confrontational but I don't understand your comment and hoped you could explain further.

        I took your comment to mean that even though there were better formats available, MP3 became standard because it was open.

        My confusion is thus-
        1-when MP3 first started being widely used (I started using it extensively in 1997) it was competing with WAV files. There were no better formats.
        2- MP3s are only 'open' in the sense that they don't have embedded DRM. It is still a proprietary format with license fees attached.

        • by JamesP (688957)

          Actually I believe there's one more important detail in the MP3 success: CPU usage and bitrate quality

          A 486 can play MP3s with reduced quality (not encoded quality, but playback downgrading). Pentium with full quality. Encoding times were far from realtime.

          I believe competing formats used too much bitrate for same quality or too much cpu power.

      • by jeffmeden (135043)

        I think his point was that we have the choice between one open and barely capable kludge and one closed but broadly supported and well understood kludge.

        Personally I would rather buy a crutch for my broken leg so it can heal, then have a sprained ankle that I was "free" to walk on day after day until my foot fell off. Oops, sorry, I am taking BadAnalogyGuy's job away from him...

    • by Rockoon (1252108) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @09:46AM (#32743618)
      "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.

      I don't care about things that are "open" but dont work in practice.
      • by hedwards (940851) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:41AM (#32744404)
        The problem is that something that's open might eventually work, whereas something that isn't probably won't unless it's on a blessed platform. Which is the point, if it's a site devoted to Windows or OSX, having content that's not particularly well available beyond those platforms is possibly acceptable. If it's general interest like Youtube is having it be restricted artificially to a couple platforms is clearly not acceptable. Admittedly there's only so much they can do or really should do, but this sort of artificial narrowing of the market is absurd.

        At least with VP8 it's available to any platform at present, whether it's been ported is a moot point as the necessary bits to port it are available.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by bigtrike (904535)

      Flash kills battery life and stability. After 10 years, it still doesn't work well on modern computers or mobile devices and is likely to never be a good solution. The video tag is young, not quite there yet, and will probably be a better bet in the long run.

      • by Stooshie (993666) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:09AM (#32743924) Journal
        " After 10 years, it still doesn't work well on modern computers or mobile devices"
        [citation needed]

        Flash allows proper streamnig, video tag does not. Proper streaming needs a server side solution. If HTML5 isn't going to be ready till 2022 for a browser standard, how long will it take for a server-side standard?
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by bigtrike (904535)

          I don't have any studies to cite. Safari, Chrome, and Firefox have all started running plugins in a separate process. This is primarily due to Flash taking down the browser repeatedly.
          Safari even added a special error message to keep people from hating the browser:
          http://fukamachi.org/wp/wp-content/photo/misc/flash_crash.png [fukamachi.org]

          Before this was supported, I personally checked out the stack traces on most Safari and Firefox crashes. It was almost always executing a flash function.

          When it's not crashing, it's d

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Funny. YouTube HTML5 streaming seems to work find for me. Also do you really need a citation for Flash's performance? Try the following... Got to any laptop and open a YouTube video. Keep an eye on CPU. Now pause it and note the CPU cycles. Now Switch YouTube to the HTML5 beta and do the same. Big difference. HTML5 video which is paused uses 4% CPU while Flash paused uses 32%. NOTE: all of the videos were complete streamed before starting the playback. Also Pause is better than Playback because nothing i

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by jez9999 (618189)

            HTML5 video which is paused uses 4% CPU while Flash paused uses 32%.

            I just did what you said, paused a Youtube vid in Flash, and the browser CPU usage dropped to around 2-4%.

      • by gandhi_2 (1108023)

        Flash only kills battery life because of intense decompression and decoding -> high cpu usage. If flash is just a a container for h.264, and you use h.264 with your video tag, then what's the difference?

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by omnichad (1198475)

          HTTP Streaming vs. RTMP. Yes, you can stream with HTTP on Flash, but for long-format video or live streaming, HTTP doesn't really have what it takes.

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by smash (1351)
            So why don't we fix HTTP once, rather than kludge a fix into every data format that requires streaming?
        • by Sancho (17056) * on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @11:49AM (#32745672) Homepage

          It's all down to the decoder. There's a dedicated processor in the iPhone which handles h.264. For the Flash player to be as efficient as any old h.264 you want to play on the iPhone, it would have to use that processor. However Adobe doesn't have the greatest history of using accelerated features (essentially dedicated processors for decoding h.264) of the hardware they target--in fact, they only recently started using accelerated decoding on Windows.

          If they don't use the dedicated chip, then they're going to be using the main CPU. It's going to be far less efficient, both in energy usage and in CPU usage. And this applies to all portable devices with acceleration, not just the iPhone. Many laptops have acceleration via the graphics hardware.

          Worse, of course, is what happens when you try to move to a platform that Adobe doesn't support? Want to use 64-bit linux? Too bad. Apple wants to change their decoder on the iPhone? They have to convince Adobe to adapt to the new one. That's vendor lock-in, and it's bad for the consumer.

      • by sycodon (149926) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @11:02AM (#32744810)

        Youtube says that while Flash may suck, it sucks in a variety of different ways in which HTML5 can't yet suck.

      • by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @11:02AM (#32744824)
        No, flash implemented poorly kills battery life and stability, just as anything else implemented poorly. Until HTML5's video tag can implement things like RTMP, it's going to be playing second-fiddle to Flash, and that's just in terms of video playback. Flash's animations are already fantastically faster than anything HTML5's canvas can kick out.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by cHiphead (17854)

      Can we please have a permanent ban on asking and answering your on questions? I say yes.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by pinkushun (1467193)

      Also worth mentioning, is that Google acquired YouTube in 2006, and Google is a supporter of Open Source [google.com] with an open source operating system [blogspot.com]. If they did look at this from an outside, objective perspective, I trust Google will do anything they can to speed up HTML5 video support.

      • by Scrameustache (459504) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @12:53PM (#32746796) Homepage Journal

        Also worth mentioning, is that Google acquired YouTube in 2006, and Google is a supporter of Open Source [google.com] with an open source operating system [blogspot.com]. If they did look at this from an outside, objective perspective, I trust Google will do anything they can to speed up HTML5 video support.

        But Google has sided with Adobe in their spat against Apple, and YouTube has a lot invested in DRM, at the behest of the media cartel. That DRM is included in Adobe products, and not in the html5 spec. That's an internal conflict for Google, and in the "principles VS revenue" conflicts, the principles rarely win.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Stooshie (993666)
      " ... Who *cares* if it doesn't work worth a damn in actual practice? ... "

      I do! I like the fact that I can jump to any part of the video and even direct people to that part of the video with a single url. the video tag doesn't really do steaming in that sense.

      "The point is that it's *OPEN* and not under the control of any nasty for-profit corporation. And that makes it superior"

      ORLY? name a major media format that is used widely that IS open format! Your idea that open format is superior is an opini
      • by msauve (701917) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:12AM (#32743964)

        name a major media format that is used widely that IS open format

        Text, the most widely used and open of all.

      • by Yvan256 (722131)

        PNG

      • by tepples (727027) <tepples AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:34AM (#32744294) Homepage Journal

        I like the fact that I can jump to any part of the video and even direct people to that part of the video with a single url.

        HTML5's <video> element supports JavaScript seeking [whatwg.org] to a new playback position. Your video page can read the fragment identifier from the URI, parse it, and then set the video element's currentTime attribute to make the player seek. The back end uses an HTTP/1.1 range retrieval [w3.org], the same thing that resumable downloads use.

        the video tag doesn't really do steaming in that sense.

        Steaming as in a "steaming pile"?

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          But I turn JavaScript off. As annoying as Flash is, it's confined. JavaScript is almost always worse.

    • I think you miss the point. Flash is a poorly performing closed POS that makes video on the Internet beholden to a single vendor. That is a problem any way you slice it. It's unlikely that adobe will actually fix the situation unless they're absolutely backed into a corner.

      Yes, the new unfinished standard doesn't have complete support in browsers yet. Whoop-dee-doo. The "no agreed upon video codec" thing is a bit of red herring. Safari, IE, and Chrome are all supporting H264 already, and unless WebM takes off, H264 is the de facto video codec standard of the decade. Whining about how much you love DivX isn't going to change that. Even Flash is supporting H264 (That's right! If you're arguing in favor of Flash, you're arguing in favor of H264 being the de facto standard). Blaming Apple for this is also silly. They made a choice based on what they believed would provide their customers with the best product. Going by their rate of sales, I don't think their customers disagree with Apple's views all that much.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Firefox has - what? - 28% of the overall market, and it doesn't support H264. Hardly 'de facto' when the second most-popular browser doesn't support it, eh?

      • by Eraesr (1629799) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:41AM (#32744414) Homepage
        Everyone seems to forget one thing about this blog: it doesn't say that Flash is the holy grail for video streaming and that we should all flock to using Flash and put a ban on the HTML5 codec. No, the author of the blog applauds the efforts being put into HTML5 but warns that the video tag simply isn't finished yet. The moral of the story is that while HTML5's video codec is a great start, it's way too soon to put a ban on Flash because it still offers a lot of functionality that HTML5 does not. There still is valid use for Flash over HTML5.
    • by rickb928 (945187)

      "The point is that it's *OPEN* and not under the control of any nasty for-profit corporation. And that makes it superior. Who *cares* if it doesn't work worth a damn in actual practice?"

      This is why the Red Sox won't let me walk on and play right field. Free that doesn't work doesn't, well, doesn't work.

      I'm waiting for the FOSS community to develop HTML5 addins that will work. Just remember, if such a thing happens, expect outfits like YouTube to capitalize on that and make money off the efforts of the fre

  • by eldavojohn (898314) * <eldavojohn@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @09:42AM (#32743568) Journal
    It's funny that a lot of these points end with something like "HTML 5 is working on it" or "HTML 5 is just begun" or "Hopefully they all merge to one." And that's the idea of an unfinished specification. With one big exception: DRM (or as the article calls it "Content Protection"). While I don't think it's impossible, I think it's a pretty big effort to produce DRM that content owners (like the MPAA or RIAA) are satisfied with as an open standard. I think they perceive open standards to be inherently insecure (despite several cases of the opposite like OpenSSL).

    Right now, YouTube might be forced to stick with Flash in regards to some videos but in the future I think we will see YouTube move as much as it can to HTML 5 and offer Flash as a premium service to content owners who want to deliver their content through Flash's DRM. And I'm fine with that. I don't care that you can redistribute videos of a snapping turtle laying eggs in my parent's garden.

    Remember, YouTube is Google and Google has supported HTML 5 at least vocally and with their Chrome browser to the best of their ability.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      I agree -- I really look at this message as less a death sentence for HTML5 than an attempt by Youtube (Google) to direct the development of the standard to something more robust.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by LWATCDR (28044)

      I really don't like Flash but this does point out some interesting points.
      Also do we want HTML to have all the features of Flash?
      Things like camera and microphone control?
      Or even the ability to go full screen?
      And DRM?
      I don't like DRM but I do know that for somethings the choice will be DRM or nothing.
      Just a lot of really good points. It also shows how W3C really has blown it. They move to slow with adding features to browsers. I mean really we are just NOW adding video support to HTML? Really?
      How long ago d

      • by TheRaven64 (641858) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:36AM (#32744330) Journal

        Indeed. I found TFA particularly entertaining because it said 'we wouldn't be able to offer things like this' where the word 'this' linked to a page saying 'this is not available in your country'. I'm fairly sure that you don't require Flash in order to be able to not provide a service.

        Of all companies, I'd expect Google to know that making bits uncopyable is not possible. Especially amusing since they cite RTMPE as an example of a useful feature, when RTMPE is broken and can easily be ignored by anything other than the official Flash player.

        The point about streaming live events is a client issue. The spec allows any URL format, so you can use rtp:// streams, for example. Maybe Chrome needs to support these? Seeking is more important. HTTP lets you seek to a byte range, but how does that map to a location within the file? This could be worked around by putting this data in the header somewhere. Mind you, QuickTime seems to be able to seek within a remote file pretty nicely, so it must be possible...

        Things like camera and microphone control?

        Personally, I'd rather that my browser didn't have the ability for a malicious site to turn my laptop into a bug, and I suspect most corporate users feel the same way.

        Or even the ability to go full screen?

        This is actually one thing that I'd rather the browser did. Flash games, for example, would often be better played in full-screen mode, but unless they explicitly implement this support (which most don't), they can't. A standard way of making a div display full screen, with a standard browser UI so that it can't be done unless the user explicitly requests it, would be very nice.

        I don't like DRM but I do know that for somethings the choice will be DRM or nothing.

        'Nothing' works for me. If companies choose not to compete, that's their loss. The companies that choose to make their products available in a form that's useful can buy up their copyrights in a few years when they've gone bankrupt.

        • by tepples (727027) <tepples AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:52AM (#32744614) Homepage Journal

          HTTP lets you seek to a byte range, but how does that map to a location within the file?

          Find the known timestamps before and after the desired seek point, interpolate where you would need to seek if the part between known timestamps had a constant bit rate, and seek to that part of the file. The last article about Ogg vs. MKV [xiph.org] presented a test result that it takes on average 3.5 iterations of this algorithm to get to the right part.

          This could be worked around by putting this data in the header somewhere.

          AVI has such an index. Matroska (wrapper used by WebM) has an index. Ogg does not, but unless you're on a satellite link, four HTTP seeks won't kill you.

      • by tepples (727027)

        Also do we want HTML to have all the features of Flash?
        Things like camera and microphone control?

        Yes. Camera and mic would require a click to activate, just like Flashblock does today.

        Or even the ability to go full screen?

        Currently, HTML5 user agents support full screen operation: press F11 to activate it in Firefox.

        And DRM?

        For digital restrictions management, I'd recommend sticking to plug-ins in a PC web browser or custom apps in a mobile setting.

    • by nine-times (778537) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:01AM (#32743830) Homepage

      Yes, they're complaining about an unfinished spec, but that's a completely sensible thing to do. If you don't talk about all the problems with an unfinished spec, then how would you expect the problems to be fixed in the finished spec?

      Flash will continue to be an important part of Youtube-- at least until HTML's "video" tag addresses some of these issues. Fair enough.

    • by BenJeremy (181303) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:05AM (#32743886)

      So how long should users wait for HTML5 to gel? The internet moves in its own measure of time, and HTML5 seems to be taking things at a glacial pace... we know all the issues surrounding the delivery of video content... YouTube has been using Flash to do it for 5 years now, and when was the first time you saw the dreaded "buffering" on a RealVideo clip on your Netscape browser?

      HTML5 **should** be an established standard by now. Instead, a committee seems to be doing everything in its power to hold it back... what happened to the heady days of the internet when a standard popped onto the scene and quickly matured to give way for the next one? YES - many were not perfect, but that's why standards evolve. Instead, we now seem to be on this endless, "Duke Nukem Forever"-like quest to perfect the thing, even if it takes 10 or more years before it settles out.

      What sort of insanity is that??!?

      If HTML5 isn't a standard yet, and isn't suitable, then let's get cracking and establish what needs to be done NOW. We live in the Wiki-age... instant updates, instant results, instant gratification. We know what needs to be fixed, yet the response from the HTML5 folks is "it isn't mature yet, give it time!!!" - but if it's so fluid yet, and not "official" yet, why can't we make any changes to it??!??

      The whole process is taking too long, and it feels like this "standard" is hardly fluid or forming, yet we are urged to give it time... time for what? Nobody wants to change it! So we wait years for a standard to "mature" even while it cannot, apparently be changed... meanwhile, YouTube and many other people will look forward to HTML6 to fix the mistakes that nobody will fix in HTML5.

      The process has become broken. I don't know where the failure is, exactly, but when people complain about incomplete/malformed specs on a standard that WON'T change, but are told to wait for it to finalize, there is something wrong, even forgetting we are still being told HTML5 won't be "finalized" (even if it never actually changes) for YEARS.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Have Blue (616)

        what happened to the heady days of the internet when a standard popped onto the scene and quickly matured to give way for the next one?

        They didn't last beyond the days when the net was only used by a small group of experts and highly technical users. The state of the web in the late 90s and the early zeroes (remember that?) was a direct result of following this sort of philosophy on an unworkably large scale, with multiple competing platforms with inconsistent feature sets (sometimes deliberately so).

        Y

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by cmburns69 (169686)

          A slow and inadequate standards process led to the browser wars. There were no standards for doing what people wanted to do with the web-- so instead of waiting for the WC3 committee (or whatever it was back then) to come up with a standard way, the two major browser manufacturers decided to do it anyway. And it's no surprise they did it differently. However, if the WC3 had provided robust standards early on for dynamic content, proprietary solutions would have been at a disadvantage.

          However, flash fills

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Eil (82413)

        Unlike previous versions of the HTML recommendations, HTML 5 will become a recommendation when at least two independent web browsers fully support the draft. Although there are obviously people writing the draft and making constant improvements to it, most (all?) of these people are also web browser developers. The draft is not being held up by some committee of random bigwigs in a dark smoky room.

        That means if you're so impatient to see HTML 5 go from draft to recommendation, the proper course of action is

    • I don't think the reason the RIAA/MPAA dislike/distrust open standards is perceiving them to be insecure. Many fogey old businessmen probably see it that way. But RIAA are opposed to the entire concept of open software. Think about it.

      You have a product that you send around to each other freely, no-one gets charged for it, there aren't many horrible legal altercations over it and the word 'steal' can't even be cutely mis-applied to the product. Abhorrent! If music were simply given away in a similar fashi
    • Flash DRM (Score:4, Interesting)

      by DrYak (748999) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @12:14PM (#32746138) Homepage

      With one big exception: DRM (or as the article calls it "Content Protection"). While I don't think it's impossible, I think it's a pretty big effort to produce DRM that content owners (like the MPAA or RIAA) are satisfied with as an open standard. I think they perceive open standards to be inherently insecure (despite several cases of the opposite like OpenSSL).

      And in fact it's the exact opposite :
      Flash's DRM is a stupid joke - in short the key to decode the encrypted RTPME streams is a a couple of filestats of the ".swf" player application, i.e.: something publicly available. No password or crypto key involved (for a longer description, look for a mirror of RTMPDump [lkcl.net]). So there's no real encryption happening and as such, Flash' DRM might even not be covered by the DMCA or local clones.

      HTTP's Authentication or Session and/or HTTPS provide already enough content protection at the hosting/serving level of the video. No need to add more DRM shit on the player level.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mcgrew (92797) *

      While I don't think it's impossible, I think it's a pretty big effort to produce DRM that content owners (like the MPAA or RIAA) are satisfied with as an open standard.

      DRM itself is an impossible dream. You can't give someone the keys to your house and expect it to be secure from them. It only takes one crack and the content is on the internet without DRM, making the "protected" content less valuable to the paying customer (or would be paying customer) than the pirate content.

      DRM is snake oil, and only tech

  • well, these are the sorts of growing pains that happen with any "new" way of doing something.

    I'm in no rush for HTML5 to take over (flash "just works", at least on my systems), but it would be nice to not have Adobe keeping an iron fist on so much of the interactive content out there.

    • by Krneki (1192201)
      It might "just work" for you, but for me it is unreasonably slow and doesn't allow custom resizing.

      When I use VLC I can re-size the way I want and it uses a fraction of CPU compered to Adobe Flash player.
      • by jeffmeden (135043)

        You can also "re-size" that video straight to your hard drive and share it with 10,000 of your friends with a few clicks. This is why Flash (or some similar, DRMable software) will always have a need in the video distribution arena. Pirated content may be easy to come by, but content providers sure as hell aren't going to just give it away.

    • by peragrin (659227)

      Flash may work for you but for me it is slow, buggy, doesn't support multiple monitors, doesn't support scroll wheels.

      I dare you to find a mouse thatdoesnt have some sort of scrolling function. Flash doesn't support it. Even if flash does support it flash developers won't so itmight not exist.

      As for multiple monitors I would love full screen video on one display while working on the other. Flash will never support it and topics in adobes forums on it are locked/deleted quickly. Whycant Ickes thevideosin the

  • hmmm (Score:4, Funny)

    by thoughtsatthemoment (1687848) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @09:47AM (#32743648) Journal
    A real site knows what the real work there is behind a major feature like video. What a surprise.
  • by daid303 (843777) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @09:48AM (#32743664)

    Without content protection, we would not be able to offer videos like this [youtube.com].

    This rental is currently unavailable in your country.

    Surprise, you aren't offering those videos.

    • Re:Well, it's true (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lord Bitman (95493) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @09:58AM (#32743804) Homepage

      Without any content protection whatsoever, they wouldn't be able to offer videos which say only "This rental is currently unavailable in your country", they'd have to actually provide the video to everyone.

      The "we need DRM, otherwise we can't provide all the content we want to!" argument is horrible, stupid, and insulting.
      DRM does not allow businesses to provide content in new markets. DRM allows businesses to provide old markets in places where they make no sense. Every company which complains they can't do X without DRM really means they don't want to do X without magic fairy dust. Meanwhile, everyone and their grandmother is busy providing X without DRM, and the only difference is the companies which want magic fairy dust aren't getting paid.

      Monopolies do not exist. People will always acquire the product they want, and if you aren't willing to sell it, all that means is that people will always acquire the product they want without paying you.

      • Re:Well, it's true (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Timothy Brownawell (627747) <tbrownaw@prjek.net> on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:03AM (#32743858) Homepage Journal

        Without any content protection whatsoever, they wouldn't be able to offer videos which say only "This rental is currently unavailable in your country", they'd have to actually provide the video to everyone.

        But that is done entirely server-side and is completely independent of flash vs HTML5 vs animated GIF vs ascii-art. You just make the server look the client IP address up in a location database, and then decide whether to send was was requested or an error message.

      • Re:Well, it's true (Score:4, Informative)

        by Xuranova (160813) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:22AM (#32744084)

        Monopolies do not exist.

        MS, Intel, Apple, and Google would all like you to convince the FTC of that.

      • Re:Well, it's true (Score:4, Insightful)

        by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @11:18AM (#32745106)
        No, without DRM, the "This rental is currently unavailable in your country" videos wouldn't be available anywhere. Why don't people understand this? Without protection, content owners will not distribute their content in ways that they think need protection. It's not that hard to understand. They won't say "oh well, we can't do anything to protect our content - lets just upload it all to usenet and go home for the weekend". Your logic is insulting.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by indrora (1541419)

      Eeew.

      the worst thing is that I click it and it WITHOUT PERMISSION gets information from my PayPal account. I only use paypal with throaway debit cards, but it should not have that kind of information!

  • Sounds more like they are saying HTML5 needs more work, rather than that they are 'coming down on the side of flash'. Besides I disagree with some of the points:

    "video owners require us to use secure streaming technology, such as the Flash Platform's RTMPE protocol, to ensure their videos are not redistributed."

    RTMPE is not secure. AFAIK the spec just says (effectively) "please do not let users save the video".

    "While WebKit has recently taken some steps forward on fullscreen support, it's not yet sufficient

    • by hitmark (640295)

      i guess the main issue is that is about basically putting a video file into html in the same way as one do a image. What flash do is a good deal more, as it handles all the UI elements and such related to that.

      alone cant compete with flash. instead one have to look at +css+js+svg and then some wrapped into a single "entity" to get flash. But then there are different ways to the same solution. For instance, one reason mkv is popular as a video file container is that it can handle multiple audio and

  • And in other news, I continue to close YouTube when I go to a video that doesn't have an HTML 5 version.

  • Big surprise here, if you use a proprietary, closed plugin to deliver video with no regards to performance or user experience, then yes, you'll be able to deliver exactly within the use limits the media creators have demanded.

    If YouTube truly thinks this is best long-term for its success, I'm afraid we'll watch a slow death as competitors nibble away market-share, one obscure platform at a time that lacks a flash player but was created to use open standards out of the box.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by PolyDwarf (156355)

      If YouTube truly thinks this is best long-term for its success, I'm afraid we'll watch a slow death as competitors nibble away market-share, one obscure platform at a time that lacks a flash player but was created to use open standards out of the box.

      I don't think they do... Witness the various points in the article (Which I'm sure you read, right?) where they said "And we're helping to fix xyz problem"

      But, what they point out is that HTML 5 video is untenable for even their short term success. If they went to purely HTML 5, they would lose market share rapidly to people who weren't pure OSS. What does that say, from a business standpoint?

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mounthood (993037)

        But, what they point out is that HTML 5 video is untenable for even their short term success. If they went to purely HTML 5, they would lose market share rapidly to people who weren't pure OSS. What does that say, from a business standpoint?

        It points out something remarkable and often overlooked: The market leader is pushing for open standards like it's business depends on it. That's the exact opposite of the (short) history of high tech: it's normally the marginal players that agree on standards to commoditize the market and gain share, while the leader "innovates" to keep everything incompatible. Google is pushing HTML5 to adopt more features so it can compete in a market of open standards, rather then making a gVideo player with lots of new

  • Oh, you mean like the inability to have pop up ads like you've recently added to a huge portion of your flash videos??? Yeah, thought so.
  • Translation: "We are at war with Apple and anything they support, we must now oppose. Thus, we are going to throw our support behind an buggy, laggy, piece of crap like Flash just so we can stick it to Apple a bit more in our ongoing effort to knock both them and Microsoft out of the picture. Thanks for your information, we will use it to make money."

    Maybe I'm just getting jaded in my old age but I always seem to see nefarious reasons behind "business" decisions of late.

    That or I just need my morning co
    • by jedidiah (1196)

      > Translation: "We are at war with Apple... ...the cry of the mindless blithering mindless fanboy.

      YouTube is not just some consumer shill posting from his basement. They're running
      a real video website and have real requirements. These requirements exist quite
      independent of your need to shill for your brand.

      The very thing that allows Adobe to sandbag with features that have been supported
      on Linux and Windows for years and on Apple for only a month also allows them to
      "secure" the content and make content c

  • by dhermann (648219) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:13AM (#32743974)

    "YouTube have pretty much come down on the side of Flash having major issues with the lack of features that the HTML5 tag has and may never have."

    1. "have": YouTube is an single corporate entity and not plural
    2. "having major issues": dangling modifier, does YouTube or Flash have the issues?
    3. "pretty much": use this phrase if you're a 13-year-old girl texting, not when talking about the news
    4. "has and may never have": contradictory, how can the tag have something now but may never have the same something later?
    5. "tag has": has what? The major issues, the lack of features, or the major issues with the lack of features?
    6. "Come down on the side of Flash": misleading wording, it sounds like YouTube has actually decided against Flash?

    I guess my point is that this sentence is terrible. How did you possibly allow this, /. mod?

  • by Scrameustache (459504) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:16AM (#32744008) Homepage Journal

    Without content protection, we would not be able to offer videos like this.

    "This rental is currently unavailable in your country. "

    I miss the WORLD-wide web :(

  • by koolfy (1213316) <koolfy@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:23AM (#32744104) Homepage Journal

    Without content protection, we would not be able to offer videos like this. [youtube.com]

    *click*

    This video is currently unavailable for rent in your country.

    Yes, I see how with content protection you are not able to offer me videos like this.

  • I have pretty much come down on the side of the summary having major issues with the lack of grammar that a good summary has and may never have.

  • by Sloppy (14984) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @10:46AM (#32744506) Homepage Journal

    Simply pointing the browser at a URL is not good enough, as that doesn't allow users to easily get to the part of the video they want. As we’ve been expanding into serving full-length movies and live events, it also becomes important to have fine control over buffering and dynamic quality control. Flash Player addresses these needs by letting applications manage the downloading and playback of video via Actionscript..

    Flash Player's ability to combine application code and resources into a secure, efficient package has been instrumental in allowing YouTube videos to be embedded in other web sites. Web site owners need to ensure that embedded content is not able to access private user information on the containing page..

    HD video begs to be watched in full screen, but that has not historically been possible with pure HTML. While most browsers have a fullscreen mode, they do not allow javascript to initiate it, nor do they allow a small part of the page (such as a video player) to fill the screen.

    All of these boil down to Youtube simply not liking how the browser they downloaded today, happens to play video. The thing is, nothing about today's implementation are damning of HTML5; they're just damning of today's implementations of it. A user-initiated request to the browser or player is what should initiate full-screen video (or any other "zooming" of content), not javascript. A user-initiated request to the browser or player is what should handle seeking. The browser or its lower-level networking library should be doing the buffering. And so on.

    They are really praising HTML5's strengths here. Website creators shouldn't be burdened with micromanaging how the details of how a video plays, just like they don't worry about how to incrementally display an image, how to view an image full screen, or how to implement selecting and copying text. And yet, these guys are arguing that for video, they want their javascript programmers to have to work on that shit. The sane thing to do is to push it onto the browser guys (who can then push it onto the player guys, who may end up pushing some things onto the OS guys, whatever).

    I won't even touch the DRM point, because I'm not in the DRM market so I can't imagine what kinds of DRM viewers are asking for.

    The only points they have which has any real legitimacy, are the camera/microphone one and concerns about serving live content, rather that content sitting in some finished and indexed file. Yes, HTML5 video isn't really intended for that, so if youtube want to deal in those areas, they've got a point that using mere web tech isn't going to do they job; they need users to download applications (i.e. Flash code) instead. Fair enough; Youtube wants to get into new markets where they'll make some money. But for most of their video and pretty much everything Youtube is known for, HTML5 is the right answer.

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