One Tip Enough To Put Name On Terrorist Watch List 446
Frosty P writes "As a result of the US Government's complete failure to investigate credible warnings about 'Underwear Bomber' Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab from none other than Abdulmutallab's father, senior American counterterrorism officials say they have altered their criteria so that a single-source tip can lead to a name being placed on the watch list. Civil liberties groups warn that it is now even more likely that individuals who pose no threat will be swept up in America's security apparatus, leading to potential violations of their privacy and making it difficult for them to travel. 'They are secret lists with no way for people to petition to get off or even to know if they're on,' said Chris Calabrese, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union."
TSA Agents (Score:5, Funny)
Re:TSA Agents (Score:5, Insightful)
Just waiting to batch upload all the names of TSA agents. What will the Feds do then?
Hire another batch of police academy dropouts?
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Now, I don't think it's fair to rag on TSA officers, particularly. But it is good to remember that, like everybody, they're only human.
Re:TSA Agents (Score:5, Interesting)
Then why are they given powers that are not given to average humans? This is the same thing that goes on with police officers. When they're doing their job well they're touted as "Brave heroes better than most of the population" but when they're making mistakes they're "only human".
The solution is more oversight of people with more power.
Re:TSA Agents (Score:5, Insightful)
It was clearly a rhetorical question, but his point is entirely valid: when you put people in a position of unchecked power, they WILL abuse it. Always. However, the system we currently have at airports where "We the People" have no recourse but to submit to whatever the TSA wants or face arrest, prosecution and potentially a $10,000 fine is a real problem, and putting "only human"'s in such a position of power is unbelievably stupid. Seriously, any reasonably bright high school freshman civics student could explain what that's a Really Bad Idea.
Re:TSA Agents (Score:4, Insightful)
If they are human, we should treat them like any other human who goes round sexually molesting people for pleasure.
Re:TSA Agents (Score:5, Insightful)
More efficiently, upload the names of as many congressional lobbyists as you can find. I suspect US senators and representatives are immune (or at least have a Secret Service escort who can wave them through), but if a thousand lobbyists found themselves unable to fly, the change will happen in a matter of months.
It might work better to flag close relatives of congresspeople. Outside the immediate family so they won't reasonably have access to that Secret Service escort, but close enough to be in close contact.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Or even better, no change will happen and lobbyists can't fly anymore. Making them unable to do their jobs, thereby making the government "of the people, by the people, for the people" again.
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Lobbyists don't need to fly to "do their jobs" - as long as they have cell phone service and can reach WH/congress critters personal email accounts, who needs to fly?
Re:TSA Agents (Score:4, Insightful)
How are they supposed to take their target Congress-critter to Tahiti if they can't fly?
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You assume that the average congress critter is able to read email or operate a cellphone.
I don't necessarily expect either from them.
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I LOVE this idea. Now how do I get ahold of a list for Microsoft, Amazon, and RIAA's lobbyists? Hmmm.
The only problem is that these companies have so many resources that if their lobbyists get blacklisted by the TSA, they'll just hire new ones from their pool of ~1 million employees.
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> I LOVE this idea. Now how do I get ahold of a list for Microsoft, Amazon, and RIAA's lobbyists? Hmmm.
Well, a while back, Bill Gates's dad's company (Preston Gates & Ellis -- the guys infamous for employing Jack Abramoff) was a lobbying firm Microsoft used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Gates_%26_Ellis [wikipedia.org]
"The firm's Washington, DC office is known as Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds LLP. When it was opened in 1973, partners included Emanuel Rouvelas, former counsel to the Senate Commerce C
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Re:TSA Agents (Score:4, Informative)
I hate to burst your bubble, but I seem to remember that sen. Edward Kennedy, wasn't able to board an airplane for some months when his name turned up on the no-fly list for alleged IRA connections. As it turned out, that was another Edward Kennedy. So being in congress or having the best know face in American politics will not get you on the plane. The list is always right, reality is often mistaken.
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According to Ron Paul, he undergoes a Freedom Fondle every time he flies due to a replacement knee.
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Or Senator and Congressmen's Chiefs of Staff (or spouses, or even children), that will hit "home" very quickly.
As someone else noted, Sen. Kennedy and Rep. Lewis had a very hard time getting off the list...
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
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TSA actually tried once to stop Ted Kennedy from flying because his name was one the list:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/us/senator-terrorist-a-watch-list-stops-kennedy-at-airport.html [nytimes.com]
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Just waiting to batch upload all the names of TSA agents. What will the Feds do then?
They will put your name on the top of the list.
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Iran couldn't do it plus that'd be political humor (Score:3)
In fact, Europeans don't even care about America's TSA crap*, largely because they don't mind walking around naked. So I doubt even they'd even find an audience.** Also, I'm doubtful that they'd understands American's well enough to mock our lowlifes successfully.
There is however one nationality that understands Americans throughly, does exceptional comedy, and isn't beholden to our social mores. That's right, Canada! :)
There is also the very real possibility of small time production by Americans. Anyon
Excelent (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously - this is an excellent thing.
The ridiculousness of the watch list will never be fixed, as long as it's only a small fraction of people who are inconvenienced.
I'm waiting for the day someone gets a hold of every airline's list of frequent fliers with more than 300 miles/month and gets them added to the list. When that happens, the airlines are going to go apeshit, the entire industry collapse and the economy take a massive hit. And then we'll know if it's there as actual security or just a show to make people feel safer.
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Seriously - this is an excellent thing.
The ridiculousness of the watch list will never be fixed, as long as it's only a small fraction of people who are inconvenienced.
I'm waiting for the day someone gets a hold of every airline's list of frequent fliers with more than 300 miles/month and gets them added to the list. When that happens, the airlines are going to go apeshit, the entire industry collapse and the economy take a massive hit. And then we'll know if it's there as actual security or just a show to make people feel safer.
And what exactly would bring upon such a perfect scenario? Reductio ad absurdum is a quite costly approach to making a point when actual human lives are involved.
It's quite likely you are underestimating how absurd things may become before people finally decide enough is enough.
Who knows, maybe even someone jokingly said to Hitler "hey what if we invade half of Europe, lol" just to prove him wrong, and he took it seriously.
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No kidding.
A bunch of Anons using tor/skype to make anonymous tips could cause a *lot* of ruckus.
So could a bunch of al-Qaeda. Why bother making bombs and killing yourselves to disrupt American air travel when all you need is a computer?
Glenn Beck (Score:5, Funny)
I've heard rumours that he was involved in funding for Al Quaeda back in the 90's. Not saying that he did of course, but it's interesting that he hasn't denied it so far.
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I heard it was for fondling baby terrorists
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>>>I heard it was for fondling baby terrorists
I heard Glenn was fondling Rachel Maddow, trying to convince her to become his Second Mormon wife. Now THERE'S a crime against humanity. (And neither of them have denied it to be true.) Okay this is becoming ridiculous.
Liberty and safety (Score:5, Insightful)
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little ball rubbing activity deserve neither.
Re:Liberty and safety (Score:5, Interesting)
I had a facebook "friend" and former classmate tell me I am overreacting and the TSA breat/penis-fondling is no big deal. So I copied that Ben Franklin quote *from the friends page* as my response.
His reply: "Flying is not an essential liberty." Then he unfriended me. (sigh) The 9th and 10th amendments, plus more court cases than I can list here, assert that these ARE essential liberties. How can people be so dumb that they think the right to travel (including by plane) should not be protected? Or that getting felt-up by police at the port is okay?
I could understand such things if you are crossing an international border, but not if you're flying from St. Louis to New York or some other local flight. About a year ago a Ron Paul employee was stopped by the TSA and interrogated for an hour. His crime: He had 3000 dollars in cash in a lockbox. They were donations from Paul's supporters, but the TSA wanted to drag him off to the Drug Enforcement Agency to be charged for suspected smuggling.
It's complete and utter bullshit.
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The Congress has the power to "make regular" aka to apply uniform laws to "commerce among the States", not to ban people from traveling. In fact the Constitution specifically forbids the setting-up of duty posts/barriers to prevent crossing state lines.
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"Ben Franklin's a fat old douchebag."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
The Republic (Score:5, Insightful)
Is doomed.
The USA is now a police state. In the next 10 years history is going to repeat itself and it will ultimately lead to WWIII.
Life is going to get increasingly harsher here, it is already _very_ harsh for many children more than a quarter of which do not have enough food to eat on a daily basis.
The TSA is now the "Brown Shirts" equivalent legally of the NAZI police. They have ultimate authority over the law of the land and can and do on a daily basis exercise that authority in our Airports.
From there it will eventually lead to a knock on your door and a pleasant man entering your residence asking why you are on his "list"....
at 3AM in the morning.
Meanwhile nobody here is doing jack squat about anything.
We already see that the Bank of America and other banks are simply extended branches of the US government along with other large businesses such as Amazon, which should not have any involvement _AT ALL_ as commercial institutions with Wikileaks. (i.e. shutting down accounts).
This cooperation on such a large scale in the US right now between government and large mega businesses compose a fascist state which is being constructed by a few power brokers at the Federal Reserve for complete control of government.
With the TSA, they now have an enforcement arm to build off of that is above the law.
Compare that with the "brown shirts" use by Hitler during the early 1930's to enlist primarily unemployed people who couldn't find a job to do his "dirty work" in eliminating the communist threat or any dissident obstacles to his power.
The horrific implications here though, is to use the TSA to create a list of anyone who points out that the TSA is clearly a criminal run operation and is not constitutional .
Right now names just go on lists...
Eventually that list _will_ lead to your front door in the middle of the night and I hope to god you are either out of the country by then like a lot of the intelligent Jewish people who could see the whole thing coming in the early thirties when Hitler was organizing his power structures...
and left Germany before it was too late.
I fully expect this will continue, with no resistance just like it did in Germany.
God help us all.
-Hack
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Is it? "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded as the military." - our current president (Dem or Rep/it makes no difference).
As for the tone of the post, it does seem Alex Jones like. There's a kernal of truth wrapped with overzealousness.
Re:The Republic (Score:5, Insightful)
No, comparing the TSA to the Sturmabteilung is not ridiculous at all.
While I don't think it's very likely that we would as easily enter a "TSA = proto-Nazis" situation, people who say things like "It's just a little bother, it could never get that bad" were around prior to every major bad thing that ever happened.
"It's just a metal detector, it's really quite sensible... only holds us up for a few minutes."
"Searching through my luggage is no big deal. Someone could have a bomb/gun/etc.! It's only a few minutes here and there."
"Well sure, the body scanners and pat downs are a pain in the ass at airports, but they have to protect rail stations just as much as they do airports!"
"Well, sports stadiums are just as vulnerable if not more than transportation stations... hell, can you imagine a bomb going off in Giants Stadium?"
"Sure, it's annoying to have to submit to a full car search every time I try to get onto the highway, but can you imagine what would happen if a terrorist blew up a bomb on a bridge? It could collapse the entire region's ability for people to move around!"
Death by a thousand cuts.
They're not going to massively crack down with riot troops in the streets. They're going to chip away at rights, little by little. It will take years - if not generations. When our kids grow up, they wouldn't at all be bothered by the things that are unfathomable to us - say, mandatory national ID cards, or retinal scanners, or troops with automatic weapons posted in the street because they will have grown up with this being the status quo.
I don't know about you, but when I see things like a Newark Police officer armed with a M4, tactical combat vest, and a kevlar helmet [asset-cache.net] standing in front of a building in the downtown of my own goddamned city you can bet your ass that I am more than a little perturbed.
This isn't a matter of Republicans or Democrats being bad. It's a matter of 99% of politicians wanting more power, being greedy, being corrupt. As much as one party might hate another, that hatred can evaporate pretty quickly if an opportunity for them to collude and increase both of their power is made available to them.
We look at those guys who post the "Power, Greed, Etc. are enemies of the county" copy/pastes on things like Slashdot as nothing more than a nuisance - a bunch of nutters - but they're probably some of the sanest people of all. Okay, I'd admit that the possibility of a Zionist Reptilian Invasion conspiracy is a bit off the wall, but a government that is growing more and more corrupt and trying to amass more power is certainly not remotely as insane as so many people easily dismiss it to be.
If you want to truly keep our liberties intact, please, as a fellow American I ask that you do not let these things pass by as lightly. Don't say it's just an "irritation" or "inconvenience". All of these little irritations and inconveniences will add up over the next 20-50 years to something that will really be quite horrible. You have to be loud and over the top. A whisper won't be heard by the people who are distracted by the day-to-day comforts of their life like Dancing With The Stars and Farmville. You need to be loud and angry. Sometimes violent, sometimes not.
There have been far too many times in the history of the world where terrible things have been done because the populace was too ignorant or indifferent to what was going on in their own goddamned countries. By being silent - or even just relatively quiet - you are giving your consent. For the love of the freedoms this country was based on and your brothers and sisters in this country and around the entire world, do not let these things pass quietlly .
So yes, I think
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An excellent speech. Rest assured that you're now on a watch list somewhere and will be the first to be investigated when the shit goes down. Your sacrifice does not fall on deaf ears.
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You know, you're right. I flew the week before Christmas, and was thinking, "Having to go through this security is exactly like Jews getting exterminated in concentration camps. Exactly. Gee, if you just put shiny boots on these TSA monsters, it would be precisely similar to the Warsaw Ghetto." Yes, that's what I thought. Also, I thought, "Sitting next to this fat lady in these cramped seats and having to eat these dry Oreo Bits is just like having medical experiments performed on me by Dr Mengele at Au
Re:The Republic (Score:4, Interesting)
Things are grim in terms of economy and human rights in USA, I'd agree thus far, but I wouldn't worry about WWIII. USA even had to stop dead in its plans to attack Iran due to waning economy and internal political issues.
The word is out: getting rid of the US dollar as the backup currency has become a priority for every bigger nation/union in the world.
The process has started, with the Middle East working on moving towards the Euro, and China/Russia recently opening a new exchange market in their own currencies (to replace the USD they use now) and the rest are to follow soon.
Without this backup, the dollar will quickly devalue, USA will not have the ability anymore to loan resources for its empire ambitions, even if Hitler himself was revived and elected for the next president.
DDOS it (Score:2)
Well, this just makes it possible to DDOS the entire thing. What, there are over 300 million people in USA, right? So how hard is it to build a script to just iterate over all those people and submit tips on all of them?
Do it in a distributed way and once everybody is on the list only the people who are not on it will look suspicious.
Enemies of the State (Score:4, Interesting)
So now all citizens are enemies of the state? And with a "tip list" that is so easily game-able, why don't we all just submit the names of everyone who works for FOX NEWS?
I'd love to hear about Glenn Beck not being able to fly, or Sarah Palin strip-searched and groped at the airport. Now that might make FOX reverse some of their propaganda. If anything, when it comes to security theater, that's actually one of the very few things Glenn Beck and I agree on.
But since FOX yells louder than any other "news" agency (nobody watches msnbc, CNN is useless), they are a great target for this. I say make FOX an enemy of the state, and let them see how their "post 9-11 world" that they yap about so much has become an insane police-state.
They after all, are the only group to create their own grass-root support, as FOX essentially created the "Tea Party", so, only they can create enough backlash to have any effect in American politics.
Re:Enemies of the State (Score:5, Informative)
I'd love to hear about Glenn Beck not being able to fly, or Sarah Palin strip-searched and groped at the airport. Now that might make FOX reverse some of their propaganda. If anything, when it comes to security theater, that's actually one of the very few things Glenn Beck and I agree on.
Don't get your hopes up.
The X-ray scans and groping procedures are applicable for the "small people" only.
I wish I was kidding, but if you are a government official or rich enough to have your own security people travel with you, you get an officially sanctioned bypass. It's literally in the rules.
At most what would happen if you try to troll the TSA by adding popular people on the lists is to get unwanted attention to your own persona.
The reason you can't play the system against itself is that, after all, the people on top work hard every day on changing the system to play you. They have the capability, head start and experience to make sure you follow the rules and don't yap or object too much, like all small people should.
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Would you mind sharing these rules with all of us?
I don't mind sharing [msn.com]. Also keep in mind TSA don't publish their full list of "rules". So this is just what people caught in public.
Re:Enemies of the State (Score:4, Informative)
>>>I'd love to hear about Glenn Beck not being able to fly, or Sarah Palin strip-searched and groped at the airport. Now that might make FOX reverse some of their propaganda.
You don't watch FOX at all, do you?
Almost all the hosts are against TSA gropings.
>>>as FOX essentially created the "Tea Party"
And more misinformation. The Ron Paul for President campaign created the tea party in late 2007. They had multiple rallies and then it just keep growing, even after Ron Paul stepped back from it. I had joined Ron's tea party loooong before FOX ever talked about it.
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You assume either Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin fly commercial... I doubt that happens much, if at all.
Instead of going after folks who's opinions you don't like, why not go after the politicians who implemented this BS - there is a more direct connection between politicians and this stupidity than bloviators and this stupidity.
Neither Beck nor Palin can change policy, Senators & Congressmem can (they can defund actions they don't like) - would you rather have a giggle while watching The Daily Show when a T
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I thought Rick Santelli worked for CNBC [youtube.com] - He is widely attributed with "sparking" the creation of various "tea parties"
Incompetence is never good for the people (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's make government incompetent --- then it will inevitably shrink down and we'll be free of it. Oh wait, hmm, doesn't work.
Not necessarily a comment on what happened in this story, just a warning to anyone who believes in the above proposition. If you hate big government, then you're definitely not going to like incompetent, underpaid, under-resourced big government. The solution is to make government work better, never the opposite.
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>>>The solution is to make government work better
No the solution is to have massive layoffs. I worked for the FAA and 75% of the staff just sat surfing the net all day. Plus closures of departments that don't really need to exist like the Dept of Education - not only is this an unconstitutional creation (Congress was never granted power to educate) but it is also better handled locally by the State Governments, since they are closer to the voice of the people. (My state rep lives right in my nei
The Inquisition Lives! (Score:2)
"Are you sure?"
"Yep."
"Okay, then. We'll put " . $name . " on the list."
In the Inquisition, one can be arrested and brought to trial on a single accusation. History is now repeating itself.
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Changing Places (Score:2)
Today, many of the former "third world" cities are choked with new, expensive Toyotas bigger than a Suburban, while the US has a bunch of econo boxes. The US is going to hell under a fascist-commie go
My brother is on the list... (Score:5, Interesting)
I did the anonymous coward as it's probably better for this post than others, but needless to say my family is of Pakistani origin, and about two years ago my brother was accused of being a terrorist.
Of course, the guy that pointed the finger at him was about to go to jail himself because he beat his girlfriend over the head with a baseball bat, so he said he knew the whereabouts of a terrorist. My brother was Muslim, he knew that, and that's all it took. The charges were bunk of course, and the guy was stupid enough to email my brother saying "Yea well I'll tell everybody you're a terrorist!", which he showed to the FBI agents that showed up at our house. They were satisfied with that, thanked us for our time, and said that we don't have to worry about it again.
Fast forward to the next year when my brother goes overseas (not the Middle East) to get some research done for his thesis -- he comes back and I went to pick him up from the airport, and was waiting there for FOUR HOURS. The TSA and whomever else inside were questioning him for hours. He's on their watch list because some douchebag that beat up his girlfriend thought he'd get a lesser sentence by ratting out some Muslim guy.
Either way, it's a sad state of affairs nowadays, even a trip over the border he is detained for hours at a time. He has gotten used to it since he can't do anything about it, and showing resistance basically implies you're guilty of something. So he takes it. But the unfortunate thing is that he's far from the only one, and I imagine that lots of people are affected by this, and it's sad. What more, even if you share a name with a would-be terrorist (do you know how many Omars there are out there?) then you get screwed too. Our intelligence services are atrocious, our airport security worse, and our lack of civil liberties eroding quickly. And while right now it's only Muslims that are getting screwed, it's not too far to think it won't be gun owners, or political opponents, or anything else. It's just sick to me, and upsetting since I was born and raised in the US, just like my brother.
Re:My brother is on the list... (Score:4)
Too bad the TSA checks have never caught anybody. Would you like to lose 4 hours of your life so that some politico can pat himself on the back and smile at the cameras for implementing this security imitation theatre?
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Did you fail to register that this interrogation happened AFTER THE MAN HAD STEPPED OFF THE PLANE?
And would you also support mandatory breath tests before you are allowed to drive, in order to prevent drunk drivers? Or is harassment OK only if it targets other people than you?
Re:My brother is on the list... (Score:4, Interesting)
Why not? I mean, did the multiple IRA and ETA bombings in the last century affect the lives of catholics in general? After the recent sex abuse scandals, did catholics end up on a "no-working-with-children" list? Why not?
Fox News and other conservatives tends to have a "negative attitude towards the West" as well (meaning western liberalism), instead exposing a moralistic view more akin to the Islamists...
Nominate your elected officials (Score:4, Interesting)
I propose that people nominate their elected officials for inclusion on the terrorist watch list. Once a few politicians have to deal with this list they will see their way clear to impose more reasonable standards for inclusion...
I can think of 535 members of congress I'd like to add to the list, but what might be even more meaningful would be if their chiefs of staff were put on the list (they might be under the TSA radar and actually get added to the list, whereas a Senator or Congressman's name might be identified and flagged before making the list).
I tend to not support such acts, but in this case I'll make an exception... The issue here is the near-impossibility of ever getting off the list once on it.
Consequences? (Score:2)
What are the consequences of being placed on a 'watch list'? A little extra scrutiny? A lot? Denial of traveling privileges? Isn't this why we want watch lists as opposed to ethnic/religious stereotyping?
Some evidence has been found that would suggest an individual might be a risk. So we watch that person (as opposed to randomly fondling everyone). I don't really have a problem with this. I would like to see some procedure for backtracking the list entries to the sources for the purpose of evaluating sourc
You'd be surprised who makes the list... (Score:2, Interesting)
On a recent family holiday to Florida (from the UK), my son was singled out for specific attention and searches on both sides of the Atlantic. The airport manager later told me that he had been matched on a watch-list. Although he's got a completely western name, which isn't that common, I guess he did have a few reasons he triggered this attention.
1/ His electronic visa application was made about 36hrs before flying
2/ His passport had just been renewed
3/ He was travelling on a one-way ticket
Mind you as h
This will be your future. (Score:3)
Read some Dutch newspapers. 12 people from Somalia were arrested last week under suspicion of terrorism.
Guess what. After a fer days of interrogation (no water boarding) there is totally no proof they're indeed terrorists.
Who knows the truth, but they claim they were being extorted and this was the "punishment" (result of an anonymous tip) for not cooperating...
Just to let you know what's coming...
Re:Perhaps. (Score:5, Insightful)
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But what will you spend for that extra .0001?
And will you support a campaign to reduce road deaths by a factor of 99% by setting the national speed limit to 3mph? We could 30,000 lives per year!
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Then I'm sure you won't mind posting your credit card numbers and banking details...
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And your children's names and schools, along with their complete class schedules and a list of their biggest fears.
And your mother's maiden name, your date of birth, the name of your kindergarten teacher, a list of every address you have ever lived at, and a list of every pet you have ever owned.
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And because some of us around here are right wingers, we'd like to know the day you first had sex, whether you used a condom, the most recent time you had sex, and any homosexual experiences or thoughts you may have had.
Re:Perhaps. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually shortly you won't have an option to avoid the TSA. No going by car won't help because they have bought vans with the full body scanners in them so they can scan cars & people without anyone knowing. You can't take a train, the TSA is already there. You won't be able to take a bus, because the TSA is already expanding to bus stations. The TSA has said they are going to be moving in to ports and such. So soon, you won't be able to even take a boat without running into the TSA. The TSA has starting putting a few people at the boarders as well, they have reported. The TSA just recently announced they want to have a presence at sporting events, and possibly even malls along with monitoring churches. The TSA has also said they will be moving in to the subway systems in cities to make sure they are protected.
So how exactly was it you suggest we avoid the TSA? It is or soon will be impossible to avoid them if you travel anywhere in the US. If they get their wish you won't even be able to avoid them even in your home town. It is probably more an issue of time, rather than if this stuff happens. Soon you can get the experience TSA experience everyday depending on where you go and how you get to work.
The TSA has not stopped one terrorist since they were created. You know who has stopped every terrorist? The passengers on the airplanes. So it it passengers - 2, TSA - 0. Seem to me like the passengers are doing far more to protect the public than the TSA. Maybe we need to do something to make it easier for passengers to deal with terrorists when they find them since they are doing a better job than the TSA. Spend money where it works, not on failed systems and failed government departments. Some have suggested letting every passenger carry a fire arm. While this is a funny suggestion, it might actually work better than the TSA. It does make a sort of perverse sort of sense, after all how many people could a terrorist shoot before everyone else on the plane shoots him dead. I don't think that is the best idea out there though. It is kind of funny to think about though.
There aren't just bad seeds in the TSA. The problem is systemic with the TSA. They have had serious problems listed in their last 3 yearly GAO reports. That is just the 3 I looked at and I didn't go further back. Problems of poor training still, problems of not following the advice of the "red teams" to help improve their security still. They are still failing "red team" test by huge percentages with some airports still having 100% failures still. They aren't following DHS policies like they are suppose to do. They have irregularities in their accounting and can't explain where some money went, and can't explain how much money they spent on other things. There is also the most recent report that questions their spending on new technology and issues of so much technology abandoned sitting in warehouses. The issue is the TSA isn't investigating and properly testing new technologies before they are purchased to see if they even work, let alone help security.
Every few days there is a report of how TSA staff didn't even follow their own rules and harassed a member of the public, or how they assaulted someone. The reports just keep piling up. This indicates a basic fundamental problem with the TSA. Normally you would suggest retraining to correct these type of problems, but we can't even do that since their training programs are a failure and not being done right according to the GAO.
Clearly the TSA is a failure and needs to disbanded. It was a nice idea that we tried but it is a utter and complete failure, and we shouldn't throw good money after bad with the TSA.
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I'm not even sure I'd go that far. More like "It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Odds of dying from a terrorist on an airplane:
1 in 5000.
That's the same odds of dying in a US tsunami, or getting hit on the head by a meteorite, or winning the Big Lotto prize. Twice. I do not fear any of these events happening, therefore I do not fear death by terrorist. Neither should you.
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You're much more likely to die from the drive to the airport but I don't see them putting the TSA out to pull over bad drivers.
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I believe someone pointed out the odds of dying in a terrorist attack while flying were about the same as getting cancer from the new body scan machines. The government has said that the odds of getting cancer are so small that we shouldn't worry about it, so why worry about dying in a terrorist attack? :)
Re:Perhaps. (Score:4, Informative)
That was Bruce Schneier on Security:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/11/tsa_backscatter.html [schneier.com]
There's talk about the health risks of the machines, but I can't believe you won't get more radiation on the flight. Here's some data:
A typical dental X-ray exposes the patient to about 2 millirems of radiation. According to one widely cited estimate, exposing each of 10,000 people to one rem (that is, 1,000 millirems) of radiation will likely lead to 8 excess cancer deaths. Using our assumption of linearity, that means that exposure to the 2 millirems of a typical dental X-ray would lead an individual to have an increased risk of dying from cancer of 16 hundred-thousandths of one percent. Given that very small risk, it is easy to see why most rational people would choose to undergo dental X-rays every few years to protect their teeth.
More importantly for our purposes, assuming that the radiation in a backscatter X-ray is about a hundredth the dose of a dental X-ray, we find that a backscatter X-ray increases the odds of dying from cancer by about 16 ten millionths of one percent. That suggests that for every billion passengers screened with backscatter radiation, about 16 will die from cancer as a result.
Given that there will be 600 million airplane passengers per year, that makes the machines deadlier than the terrorists.
(bold added for emphasis by russ1337)
Re:Perhaps. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually that number is wrong. The odds are much much higher.
The odds of dying in a terrorist attack on a plane in a given year are 1 in 25,000,000.
The odds of a Westerner being killed by a terrorist in a given year are 1 in 3,000,000.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703481004574646963713065116.html [wsj.com]
The odds of your dying in a 1 hour flight in a given year are less than 1 in 1,000,000.
http://planecrashinfo.com/ [planecrashinfo.com]
The odds of being struck by lightning in a given year are about 1 in 500,000.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703481004574646963713065116.html [wsj.com]
The odds of dying in a car accident within one year 1 in 18,585.
The odds of simply being in a car accident within one year are 1 in 5,889.
The odds of dying by an assault within one year are 1 in 16,421.
http://www.nsc.org/ [nsc.org]
I think, if I am not mistaken, I have a better chance to win a state lottery than die in an terrorist attack on an airplane. I am so much more likely to die from an assault than a terrorist, it is an order of magnitude that is just plain silly. So as you can see the odds are pretty slim to die by a terrorist attack of any kind. I think I can risk it, and have far less security at airport with no groping or radiation. If I get a choice, I choose my Constitutional freedoms, over being safe. If a terrorist kills me so be it. At least I died with all my freedoms, rather than beaten down by my own government.
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Another nice statistic:
520 people die in automobile accidents because they chose to drive instead of deal with airport security (TSA).
Over the course of ten years that's 5,200 people dead (next September is when this figure will become completely accurate instead of mostly accurate - it's a bit shy of 5,000 right now).
That means TSA is indirectly responsible for 73% more deaths than the 9/11 hijackers.
Chew on that one for a minute.
Ex TSA (Score:2)
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What is the principle by which you made this decision? Is it a desire to see as few deaths as possible? Then you should be focusing your efforts on heart disease. That accounts for a third of all deaths in the US! (831,000 or 34.3% in 2006, according to the American Heart Association.) It's about as bad as a WTC event every second day (and every Sunday).
Perhaps it's only "unnatural" deaths? Then you should be campaigning to forbid automobiles, since automobile accidents account for some 30,000 deaths in t
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
>>>You have an option, take a car or a boat.
Although that sounds reasonable the Supreme Law of the land disagrees with you. The 9th reserves to me the right to travel by car and boat AND airplane, while the 10th forbids the Union government from curtailing that right (unless it's across an international border), because the power is reserved to the Member States. It was never given to the central government.
And of course there's the 4th which forbids the Union government from searching people on
Re:Perhaps. (Score:4, Interesting)
I think you miss the point. As a citizen, I shouldn't have my options limited without due process. The Governor of Pennsylvania was right when he said we've become a nation of wussies. Here's how I see it:
1. Bomb-in-underwear-guy failed.
2. No one except Bomb-in-underwear-guy was hurt.
3. People will always criticize and say "You aren't doing enough to make us safe!" That doesn't mean it's true.
4. Therefor; Stop catering to the pussies and hypocrites
This isn't about protecting lives. This is about controlling spin in a 24-hour news cycle. Americans can take care of themselves. The only people who claim differently are those who gain power by offering "protection". I should never have any rights impinged upon to make it convenient for some politico to avoid criticism.
Re:Perhaps. (Score:4, Insightful)
In IT security, there is always a trade-off between usability and security. The key is the efficiency of the security. Really inefficient security will greatly decrease usability without enhancing security much (ala Microsoft's idea of perpetual dialog boxes in Vista). Really efficient security will have relatively much less impact on security (e.g., having the primary user of a computer not be its admin).
There is no reason we shouldn't take the same attitude with airport (etc.) security trading off with liberty. Turning all citizens into suspects is simply bad efficiency (and a serious betrayal of the "innocent until proven guilty" principle that is crucial to American democracy).
If you want 100% computer security, you unplug and wipe the computer (or better, disintegrate it). If we want 100% security from terrorists, we should incarcerate everyone in the world including ourselves (or better, disintegrate the planet).
Re:Perhaps. (Score:4, Informative)
The Israeli's use a high-tech heuristic approach to catching their terrorist viruses.
The result? The country in the most active terrorist region in the world and they haven't had a "close call" in a decade.
How long does it take an Israeli to get through security? No more than 25 minutes.
See, in Israeli airports they only do basic x-ray and metal detector physical searches. They don't have strange rules for laptops and batteries and liquids and shoes and whatever else. They don't care what you're carrying with you as long as it isn't something obvious like a knife or a huge bomb.
What they do instead of all of TSA's useless rules is ask questions at four different security checkpoints (integrated into the flow of the airport check-in process, so they hardly take any extra time), and based on the responses they weed out suspicious people. Those people get the ringer, but nobody else does.
The physical scanners are also enclosed in a bomb-proof area, so if someone does try to sneak a bomb on, they simply cordon it off and open another security line - no need to shut down the entire airport just because they found a bomb.
That's real security, the nonsense TSA does is just theater.
Case in point:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20023820-71.html [cnet.com]
Re:Perhaps. (Score:4, Insightful)
On the face of it this seems perfectly logical. Terrorists note that swarthy arabic types are getting more attention, terrorists start to recruit Swedish blondes with pneumatic breasts.
So where are all the Swedish suicide blondes?
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Don't be ego-centric, realize this likely doesn't apply to you, and you will in no way shape or form be effected by this.
Pastor Martin Niemöller would disagree.
Re:Perhaps. (Score:5, Insightful)
I really doubt our civil liberties are at stake.
Really? One tip-off (potentially anonymous or vindictive or malevolent) gets you on a watch list, and you're unconcerned. The management of the no-fly list does not inspire much confidence in how this watch list will be maintained.
Just have a name which is sort-of similar to a suspected baddie, and you can be stuck on the no-fly list. The late Senator Edward Kennedy and Congressman John Lewis were stuck on it for years: the bureaucracy could not remove even them in a timely way. News reporters have been placed on the list suspiciously soon after publicizing shortcomings at TSA. http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-17/us/watchlist.chertoff_1_air-marshals-chertoff-federal-no-fly-list?_s=PM:US [cnn.com]
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<sarcasm>Why not? Our government created lists [wikipedia.org] like this before and it worked just fine.</sarcasm>
Re:Perhaps. (Score:5, Insightful)
It does effect me if my name pops-up on a watch list, and I have to undergo an hour long interrogation or penis-fondling by the airport SSA.... ooops I mean TSA.
>>>you will in no way shape or form be effected by this
Riiiiight. Here's what a German pastor said after he was released from a Nazi jail cell: "It was the year 1933, and the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? ..... Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. - I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: 'Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others.' ..... The persecution of the Jews, the way we treated the occupied countries, or the things in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in Holland, that were written about in the newspapers.
"I ask myself again and again, what would have happened if, in the year 1933 or 1934 - all Protestant communities in Germany had defended the truth until their deaths? If we had said back then, it is not right when Hermann Göring simply puts 100,000 Communists in the concentration camps, in order to let them die. I can imagine that perhaps Protestant Christians would have had their heads cut off, but I can also imagine that we would have rescued 10 million people, because that is what it is costing us now."
Or if you prefer Star Trek:
"With the first speech censured, the first freedom denied, the first link in the chain is Forged that will bind us all irrevocably."
Re:Perhaps. (Score:5, Insightful)
So I assume you've sent your contribution to the ACLU, right?
Right??
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Perhaps. (Score:-1, Troll)
by puterg33k (1920022)
Ahhh com'on guys. Even though I completely disagree with his post, that doesn't make him a "troll" or "ass". He's just sharing his opinion. He didn't deserve the negative karma hit nor the insult. Can't we all just..... get along?
Re:Perhaps. (Score:4, Informative)
Perhaps. (Score:-1, Troll)
by puterg33k (1920022)
Ahhh com'on guys. Even though I completely disagree with his post, that doesn't make him a "troll" or "ass". He's just sharing his opinion. He didn't deserve the negative karma hit nor the insult. Can't we all just..... get along?
This puterg33k posted a couple weeks ago, this tidbit [slashdot.org] about surrendering our freedoms - topped with the Ben Franklin quote. When someone posts two practically contradictory and controversial statements I tend to think "troll" instead of "multiple personality disorder".
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I would think it would take a great amount of effort and persons to keep track of someone.
To keep track of someone at all times, yes. But they don't need to keep track of him at all times to completely fuck up his life.
For me, being included in the "no fly" list would be much worse than having someone following me everywhere. My life is an open book, I have no secrets to hide, but I do need to take a plane from time to time.
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Re: (Score:2)
I'm of two minds regarding the "what makes you think you're special enough to warrant tracking" POV. On the one hand, yeah, totally, a little more of that attitude would go a long way, not necessarily with regards to DHS, but certainly with things like "anti-terror" stuff being done in little podunk towns. It makes a ton of sense for NYC (target, multiple
Re: (Score:3)
The problem is, though, that they are changing the "machinery" because the public overreacted so much too the "underwear bomber". They are now lowering their requirements for how people get on the watch list because they got yelled at so much when they got one tip on the underwear bomber (his father) and still let him on a plane to the US. I have no evidence that they were able to follow up on the tip and determine how "good" it was (just because the tip is from his father does not mean it is "good"; I ca
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And remember to not ever step in the way of one of your masters.
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The federal government already gets the public databases pulled it in to their databases. This is exactly why multiple Fusion centers were set up in almost every state, at least what they are willing to admit publicly from the middle of 2009. Who knows how many they actually have now. They are not part of the federal government, but rather setup by the state and local governments, even though they get federal DHS money to set these up. Since they are not federal agencies, they are not restricted by federal
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half the country???? The WHOLE country is under suspicion!
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... would they come to their senses and realize what an asinine system they have in place?
Doubtful. They already know, but don't care. There is enough insulation from accountability such that no one will be penalized.
Behavior doesn't change unless there is consequence. If someone were to lose their position because the current system is so flawed, then it could change. However, the layers of bureaucracy and the formality of the institution pretty much guarantees that no one will pay for this fiasco, except for the citizenry.
Before the next poster comes in shouting "This is your fault. You voted
Re: (Score:2)
As an American, I hereby invite you not to come here, ever again, until you get a better grasp of U.S. civics, history and politics.
Maybe you should be a little more concerned about the personal liberties in your own home country, son. When it comes to Big Brother, you're way ahead of us.
Re: (Score:2)
Er, what? He didn't even say where he is from.
Why should he be all that concerned about US civics and history and politics? What's relevant to him is that he has business reasons to travel to the US, for purposes that benefit both the US and his home country (and the world at large), and the US' draconian security makes it difficult for him to do so. It's not really relevant *why* we have dumbshit rules; it's not an excuse that "we have this stupid rules on air travel because our political system is dysfunc
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Just goes to show that the US Federal bureaucracy is an un-tameable beast that no administration can manage. Shame on Bush for starting it, shame on Obama for letting it grow.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/charlie-skeltons-bilderberg-files [guardian.co.uk] is a fun read at first.
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Germany had the help of IBM tech to sort the population. Germany also had a very good system of letter writing from people who disliked/wanted your job ect.
What the USA is rolling out is fusion centres with the NSA as part of your telco network.
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/nsa-grsoc/nsa-grsoc.htm [cryptome.org]
If you fly and phone home, your fair game. Use a set of words
The US is also rolling out ""If You