Are Fake Geeks Dooming Real Ones? 492
mattnyc99 writes "In the wake of the Best Buy 'geek' trademarking and Miss USA calling herself 'a huge history geek,' writer (and self-proclaimed geek) Eryn Green has an interesting piece for Esquire on how so-called 'geek chic' is pervading the culture so much that no one appreciates an actual geek anymore. From the article: 'The difference between brains and beauty is that you're more or less born into good looks — entitled, if you will. Intelligence? That takes work. If the hallmark of real geekiness — of America — is determination, then we seem too determined to have an entitlement problem.'"
Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody apart from other geeks has ever appreciated an actual geek.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Funny)
Shut up geek.
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Explained in D&D terms (Score:5, Funny)
Ok, being a bit more serious. here is what is going on.
Throughout the age of d20 and now d21 (how would that work?) in the prime material plane at least we've been making the transition from "ruled by braun" to "ruled by brain". In this new age STR, DEX and CON aren't important as they once were and so in this new world that values INT above all else, those that have the CHR, but not the INT have to use some WIS and lie about their character class. Because in the public eye, CHR is always important. Most people don't want to associate with character with low CHR scores, so they take people with a good mix of both and make sure they get to fight the dragon.
Re:Explained in D&D terms (Score:5, Funny)
Spelling Nazis, please execute me swiftly with a vorpal long sword +5 for misspelling brawn. I didn't mean ruled by Adolf Hitler's mistress or and electric shaver.
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I see what you did there. If I had any mod points, I'd give one to you.
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No such luck; however, IRL seems to be a largely classless system, with a series of complimentary traits instead. Each level you seem to be given some leeway in reallocating skill points, talents, and even base stats (by small values). So by all means, if you're not happy with your character's current performance, start making the incremental changes towards a role you think you would be happier in. You might see a performance drop in the transitional period, but most people consistently fail to take advant
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Excellent point. Anyone here who calls himself a geek but has not actually bitten the head off of a live chicken, please go away.
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Are these guys [youtube.com] geeks?
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Don't you dare use the G word.
No, not that [youtube.com] g word.
Nothings changed (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothings changed, nobody appreciated an actual geek to begin with.
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Nothings changed, nobody appreciated an actual geek to begin with.
Unless it means they get free computer repair.
Re:Nothings changed (Score:5, Insightful)
They always take that for granted and get pissed at you if you refuse to give them free service. At least, that's been my experience. So no, they don't really appreciate you.
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You need to make better friends. Mine give me beer and make me dinner when I help them, and understand that they're imposing. And when I need help from them, they gladly do it. Our daycare provider will periodically call me with computer questions, and in return she works with me when my schedule changes and I have to leave the kids there a little longer than normal.
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Don't be ponderous about it, but simply saying, "that's a lot of work" and having them say, "Please????" before saying, "Ok, I'll do it for you." can really make a difference.
For some reason, people tend to equate the difficulty of getting you to do something with the difficulty of you doing it. If you wait unti
Re:Nothings changed (Score:5, Funny)
My rate is $350 AU an hour
I should charge that amount. Just getting Aussie Dollars to pay me with would be enough of a burden that they'd stop asking.
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Re:Nothings changed (Score:4, Funny)
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Why would anyone appreciate someone who bites the heads off of chickens? Oh right, the story is apparently only referring to fake geeks not actual geeks (carnival performers who do gross acts).
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Agreed. Despite what navel-gazing corners of the internet have tried to convince ourselves, the only people who think geeks are cool are geeks. The average person still thinks of "geek" as a derogatory term. Just a few years ago, I referred to myself as "such a geek" for something ridiculous I had done and the goth girl I was seeing at the time looked sympathetically at me and said (in all sincerity) that I wasn't a geek and I shouldn't be so hard on myself. It was like I had slammed my head against the wal
Re:Nothings changed (Score:4, Informative)
"Real" geeks are carnies who do things like bite off a chicken's head. Anything else is a fake geek.
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Now tell us what a real hacker is!
Easy. That's someone who builds furniture with an axe.
(Hey, you could have looked it up! I didn't need to, because I looked it up in the Jargon File years ago. So I suppose that makes me a language geek. ;-)
Premise of story is bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
You do realize that "geek" does not mean "computer nerd" right? Calling oneself a "history geek" is perfectly valid.
Re:Premise of story is bullshit (Score:4, Informative)
As long as the fact that she is a history geek makes her "peculiar and unlikable". "Computer nerds" weren't called geeks because they are techie, they were called that because they were also socially maladjusted and shunned, like a circus freak...
real geekiness? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the hallmark of real geekiness — of America — is determination, then we seem too determined to have an entitlement problem.
LOLWUT? This statement makes no sense. It sounds like a perversion of a tea party truism. A salute to real American geekiness as our founding fathers envisioned!
In my mind true geeks apply an overabundance of detailed knowledge to an overly technical project that wouldn't interest the general population. Count me in.
-sent from my TI-92 graphing calculator.
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Well I have been calling myself a nerd for years, I take pride in the title. I worked very hard to be able to think and do things in great detail that others would not. Now I don't have the typical nerd cred's ( like top 20 in my class ) but I could tune an engine back in my days with a screwdriver, adjustable and a vacuum gauge. I wrote in 6502 assembly and had fun re-writing compiled c-64 code so that the graphic routines would run faster. Most people today ask me for computer advice ( I charge in beer an
Re:real geekiness? (Score:4, Funny)
I am a proud to be called a nerd. Call it to me in public as an insult and I will give you a public dissertation on how you suck at everything Cyrano style.
This.
Granted, this is Slashdot, where Geek Pride is basically expected, but I love beating people at their own game.
Them: Geek! (pejoratively) ...So basically what you're telling me is that you're trying to insult me by admitting to everyone that I'm smarter than you...and I'm supposed to take offense to this?
Me: Really? (enthusiastically)
Them: Uhh...yeah. (*flips hair)
Me: One question - do you generally make it a habit to call someone of inferior intellect a geek?
Them: lolwut?
Me: When you call someone a geek, is it because you think they're less intelligent?
Them: No.
Me:
Them: uhhh......
It was particularly fun in college, when I'd bring up the fact that they're paying tuition dollars to attend the same institution, yet only one of us was getting our money's worth.
Real Geeks? (Score:3, Informative)
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I'm pretty sure the GP's post was entirely ironic considering the premise of the article. Basically this person is whining about "fake" geeks co-opting the term when in fact the supposed "real" geeks stole the terms from the prior "real" geeks.
Faulty Premise (Score:4, Insightful)
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History geek, uh huh..here's a translation (Score:3, Informative)
Miss USA-speak: "I'm a huge history geek"
English: "I read an article on fashion history in Vogue once."
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English: "I can count to potato+1."
Sympathy please... (Score:3)
I'm a sexist prick who works for a financial company and because I program, I consider myself a geek, even though I'm contributing nothing to geekdom."
Here I am, brain the size of a planet and they want me to work on a small payments system...
So now there are geek geeks? (Score:2, Funny)
Geeking out over the true geekiness of other geeks? What a bunch of geeks.
Amateur Geek (Score:2)
Geeking out over the true geekiness of other geeks? What a bunch of geeks.
True geeks do not. Ironically, they simply grok it.
Solution (Score:2)
Re:Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
And they will explain to you why your non expert test is really not a good way to test if someone is geeky in this particular subject. They will then spend an hour or so providing you with a better set of 10 questions and writing up a multi-page answer for each one.
That's when you know you are dealing with a geek.
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I'm just not sure just answering the questions correctly is sufficient to have passed :-)
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You do that? What a geek!
I always thought that nerds had a specific topic that makes them nerdy. And geeks were more broad in their interests, and also able to function in the real world.
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Intelligence (Score:5, Insightful)
Intelligence takes work? First I've heard about that. Sure, utilising intelligence to create new things, undertake science, refine and present new ideas, learning, building etc -- they all take work. I.e. it takes work to use your intelligence to its full potential. But I don't think that's the same thing as saying "Intelligence? That takes work".
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I don't remember not being able to read. From my earliest memories, my parents were reading to me and I used to read books like Spot the Dog. That gave me a massive headstart going into primary school, as a lot of other kids either hadn't been taught to read by their parents or simply weren't as interested in it.
I do think it's fair to say that intelligence requires hard work. I'm good at the things I do because I've immersed myself in them for most of my life. Practice can even boost IQ test scores, so I t
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Intelligence takes work? First I've heard about that. Sure, utilising intelligence to create new things, undertake science, refine and present new ideas, learning, building etc -- they all take work. I.e. it takes work to use your intelligence to its full potential.
And the moment you stop putting your intelligence to work, its level declines. A new-born with a potential IQ over the average will not realize the potential if raised by wolfs (or politicians).
Re:Intelligence (Score:4, Informative)
Read Carol Dweck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck [wikipedia.org]
In short, there may be some upper limit to raw brain power, but for most, that limit isn't ever reached.
So, claiming that "intelligence" is some inherent trait and, like most, assuming that failure equals non-intelligence causes a whole range of problems.
People can sharpen their skills and those skills are usually viewed as intelligence.
The real rub is this: When kids think they are "intelligent" or not, then nothing they do can impact that inherent trait. They will do all sorts of odd things to avoid failure and being labeled "stupid." [The inverse of intelligent.]
When they are told they can learn, and that "intelligence" is not a fixed trait, they do much better, and the odd behaviors of attempting to either gain entry into the "intelligent" club, futility of being in the stupid club, or working to avoid losing the "intelligent" club card vanish.
Read this: [It's from Dweck herself. Her book "Mindset" is an excellent start too.]
http://web.me.com/dianamadsen/Walden_Webpage/Parent_Resources_files/The%20Perils%20and%20Promise%20of%20Praise.pdf [me.com]
Cheers,
Greg
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Thanks Greg,
I always appreciate feedback and opposing views that potentially broaden my horizon. I don't have time at this moment to read the articles you have linked to but I've bookmarked them to read tonight after work
Cheers
Are we assuming (Score:5, Insightful)
That Miss USA isn't a geek just because she is a girl, or is it because she is attractive?
I haven't met her myself, but isn't it actually quite possible that she is a history geek?
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I actually didn't even think about that. I just automatically assumed that she in fact is a history geek. I have no idea what that says about me.
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I actually didn't even think about that. I just automatically assumed that she in fact is a history geek. I have no idea what that says about me.
It says you are a fan of at least one Kevin Costner movie..... "Who would claim to be that?" Here endeth the lesson... heh
Re:Are we assuming (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure there's a little bit of misogyny mixed into these responses, but I think it's mostly because most of the people assuming this imagines that every participant in a beauty pageant is dumb-as-rocks. (See: Miss South Carolina's response about maps & education several years back.)
Comically, many of the same people who make that assumption will also turn around and express their titanic levels of outrage over being stereotyped when people generalize them based on a comparison with a single data point about the neckbearded computer geek they once knew.
Having been to a 15-20 pageants as a member of the color guard presenting & retiring the national colors when I was in college, I had the opportunity to meet quite a few pageant participants (and yes, it was pretty great being a 19 year old in uniform surrounded by a bunch of 18-25 year old pageant contestants). Some of them were pretty dumb, and talking to them was tremendously un-fun. Others were quite sharp, and a lot of fun to talk to - quite a few were college students trying to win some scholarship money for school.
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Well, there's the social stigma of coasting through life with your looks. And to be frank, even if you're drop dead gorgeous, you still need considerable social and financial skills if you want to market that aspect of yourself. Otherwise at best, you're just going to be one of hundreds of folks who appear in porn until you get middle aged.
And that brings up a more important point. No matter how dumb a attractive person is, they all know looks fade. There are unmotivated idiots who wouldn't care, and have c
Re:Are we assuming (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. Pretty people do not get some "automatic free pass for life". There's a very small number of people with the requisite drive, talents, and ambition to be actresses/actors/models/etc - professionally pretty people. The vast majority of "pretty girls" are faced with a choice between improving their minds so they can get a job which will let them support themselves, or stripping at a club out by the airport. Your argument suggests that only ugly people would ever be motivated to be smart, and pretty people would only motivated to remain pretty so they can keep coasting on their looks.
A look around any modern workplace would disabuse you of this notion. I work with some absolute stunners - two of whom majored in actuarial math and biomedical engineering, respectively. This notion that "ugly = smart" and "pretty = dumb" is retarded - there are plenty of very good looking, very smart people; there are plenty of very bad looking, very dumb people. The two are entirely unrelated characteristics, and attempting to force some correlation between the two simply betrays the biases of the person making that assertion.
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Re:Are we assuming (Score:4, Insightful)
Really, so people who love the civil war and collect artifacts from it and do battle re-enactments aren't geeks?
That sounds like prime history geekery to me, they are passionate, they know far more than average about the subject and "normal" people who don't share this particular passion really don't want to hear them drone on for hours about how some particular battle went.
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My personal take on "Geek" is that it is an in-depth knowledge and enthusiasm for a particular subject, whether that subject be computers, books, engines, figures, trading cards, manga, or history is merely flavors or subcategories, those first two items pretty much make up the entrance exam for being a geek.
Beauty takes work.... (Score:2, Insightful)
The notion that JUST intelligence takes work is incredibly inaccurate.
Careful grooming, styling, exercise takes a tremendous amount of effort and practice.
The notion that your NOT born into intelligence is also incredibly inaccurate.
As much as we want to believe that ANYONE who wants to can achieve; not everyone can. There are skills that people are just gifted with, be it basketball, baseball, math, science, reading; these are all to the best of our understanding innate and intrinsic.
Now you may have som
You're not born with good looks (Score:5, Insightful)
Exercise, diet , makeup, hair removal, clothing, haircuts, healthcare, stress at work / school, sleeping habbits, alcohol , tobacco , dental care, etc ...
People seriously underestimate how much of a person's appearance is due to lifestyle factors and how much time you are willing to put into it. Yes, there are genetic factors, but frankly there is a heck of a lot of it that can actually be described in terms of effort.
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Exercise, diet , makeup, hair removal, clothing, haircuts, healthcare, stress at work / school, sleeping habbits, alcohol , tobacco , dental care, etc ...
I don't do any of those things. Except maybe for sleeping and alcohol :-( Hair removal is looking after itself.
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Yeah... my first thought was that the article author must not have a good-looking wife. I know mine puts in PLENTY of work.
Intelligence is "entitled" too (Score:3)
Intelligence is not built; accumulation of facts is. But capacity for knowledge and abstract thought, critical thinking abilities... these are things you either have or don't have.
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Give me a break. A good education can, in fact, pay off and make you more intelligent. I gaura
And not a single **** was given (Score:4, Insightful)
Who cares? I don't devote myself to the geek arts for mainstream acceptance. I do it because shit gotta get hacked.
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Thank you! And somehow I'm sure that the language will catch up and find some new derogatory term for those who don't care.
Fallacy detected (Score:2)
bullshit (Score:2)
no overclocking geek is going to drop overclocking if it becomes mainstream, for example. or, r/c geek will drop r/cing.
BR.
cuts both ways (Score:2)
This cuts both ways. For instance most folks can, through diet and exercise, make themselves drastically more attractive than they would be otherwise. Likewise someone can be born with such extensive inherent intelligenc
Who Cares (Score:2)
When I think of the prototypical geek (Score:5, Interesting)
I think of someone who is socially awkward, who also has an unnatural, maybe unhealthy knowledge of some subject in depth. Most often it is something on the outskirts of popular culture (Star Trek/Wars, Anime, 14th centuray blacksmithing techniques). I think the later part of my perception is the more important one.... passion for something not too many people really care about. I don't see why you have to be socially awkward to be a geek.
Personally, I'm well adjusted, good looking, have friends, a girlfriend, no problem performing or public speaking. Yet I program microcontrollers, buy a Kinect (or 3) just to hack it, watch anime, and here I am on Slashdot. I would absolutely consider myself a geek, and I have no problem considering someone a geek just because their unhealthy obsession isn't tech related.
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So, you are saying that geekiness is almost a direct correlary to autistic like behaviors?
Extreme fixation on a specific topic, or subset of topics is one of the defining clinical characteristic of autistic spectrum disorder.....
(So is social awkwardness.)
"Entitlement crisis" is a red herring. (Score:2)
We aren't really losing our geeks, nor is there an entitlement problem - an argument made by someone who has contempt for US citizens.
While there are many who would rather point at those who aren't businesses as "entitled", there is no thought as to the idea that businesses are too entitled to having conditions go their way - for it is too easy to pit the world against a US citizen for an equally bad concept of "competitiveness".
Our geeks still exist, despite this veiled argument that our nation has a "ski
Preemptive Clarification to parent post: (Score:2)
First paragraph should read:
We aren't really losing our geeks, nor is there an entitlement problem - for education and entitlement based arguments are made by people who have contempt for US citizens
Fallacy allert. (Score:2)
I'll believe this the second you can show me a true Scots man.
What the mainstream society has appreciated about geeks is passion, joy and intelligence. It's come about to be our time, but some of us aren't socially adjusted to be in the lime light. No big deal.
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I'll believe this the second you can show me a true Scots man.
http://www.redbubble.com/people/dido/art/2239982-true-scotsman [redbubble.com]
False (Score:4, Insightful)
Intelligence can be optimized with effort, but I think it's more something you're born with or not. I hate to be like that, but I think that some people are just smarter than others. (There is a HUGE difference between just being smart and what you do with it, however- nature vs. nurture, etc).
Nowadays, it is a pop-culture trend. Dumb chicks running around with the horn rimmed glasses because they want to look smart. Everyone THINKS they are geniuses. The self-esteem boosting tactics of the 90s have worked tremendously. Loads of Dunning-Kreuger effect abounds. The younger kids are calling themselves "nerds", which is something I or people my age probably never would have done. You didn't *want* to be a nerd in the 1980s. You hated yourself for it. The only solace you got out of it was watching NOVA or reruns of the original Star Trek with your friends, if you had any.
Okay... I'll stop here before I get bitter.
IP (Score:2)
Are geeks upset because their term has been co-opted? Isn't that an IP violation? Are geeks now in favor of IP protection?
BTW, the same thing happened with Ron Paul and the Tea Party movement. After raising $6m on Dec. 16, 2007, the anniversary of the Tea Party, neocon radio show hosts in early 2008 started trumpeting a war-supporting "Tea Party" (but somehow "small government", presumably in domestic affairs but not military ones). The neocons leveraged the $6m investment from individual Ron Paul donor
You are basically born with intelligence too (Score:5, Insightful)
I always find it odd that smart people think those who work out 10 hours a week, eat carefully, and take effort in upkeeping their appearance are just born with their looks. But then when they are able to breeze through school without studying and learn new things with little effort, that takes real skill.
I have done alot of tutoring along the years, and have seen people who work alot harder than me struggle on topics that came very naturally for me. I am not conceited enough to think I am successful just because of my hard work, while those who are successful because of "just" their looks had everything handed to them. I have had my fair share of luck too. Almost every very smart person I know (the "actual" geeks the article is mentioning) was largely born with the ability to learn faster than most people. Sure most of them worked hard too, but usually not as hard as the people who struggled through College Algebra.
The abilities you are born with are also going to primarily determine the areas you work on developing. If you are born athletic, you are more likely to spend effort on physical activities because it will provide you the most immediate payoff. And if you are born with higher intelligence, you will spend more time reading books.
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If you are born athletic, you are more likely to spend effort on physical activities because it will provide you the most immediate payoff. And if you are born with higher intelligence, you will spend more time reading books.
I think you may find that professional athletes are generally quite intelligent, because once you get high enough up the scale the human performance plateaus and intelligence becomes the key differentiator. And there are enough at or near the plateau that intelligence is pretty much mandatory. But they tend to be smart about other things, like physical awareness, recognizing weaknesses in themselves and competitors, figuring out ways to take advantage of opportunities, and training (which largely is about
um.... (Score:2)
See, on that point right there, you're wrong. So there is a problem with fake geeks, and even more troubling, the author of this article is one of them.
Geeks are ... (Score:2)
They never where like that though. Geeks are in fact more social, live more interesting lives do extreme sports and all of the above.
The "Jocks" or whatever you call them that do the cheer leaders in the end don't amount to much more than stuffing shopping bags for a living and following sport teams and committing to a single brand car as if that shows manliness.
I guess slowly in the very connected world Ge
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Some american explain me why : (Score:2)
however, this, suddenly turns into a liability in usa. why ? angst/jeal
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It probably traces back to at least the civil war though, maybe further.
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...
whats the reason for this suppression/debasement intelligent/different individuals in american culture ? can anyone give me a good explanation ?
I can't really answer that question comprehensively, but I can point to someone who made a fantastic attempt. Richard (no relation to Douglas) Hofstadter wrote a book about it. http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Intellectualism-American-Life-Richard-Hofstadter/dp/0394703170 [amazon.com]
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The actual answer is, you are an American who has lived in America your entire life and does not understand any culture other than that of America
and your rationalization for the above false assumption, is ?
And jocks are "football geeks"... (Score:2)
A geek is an outcast. Having interests does not make you a geek. Everyone has interests.
Here's a quick acid test: If you've never been shoved into a [trashcan, school locker, schoolbus floor], or given a [wedgie, bag of human feces, punch in the face], or otherwise been routinely mistreated by "cool kids" (3 years or more of this sort of daily harassment might suffice), you're not a geek. You are a normal person who has interests.
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'Outcast' implies 'cast out'. A geek may very well be 'out' by choice. Knowledge can be a heavy burden to bear.
No Worries (Score:2)
Only a geek would not appreciate being imitated! Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! Don't worry about appreciation, no one has really appreciated geeks before so what else is new? :-)
Arrogant crap (Score:2)
What a load of elitist shit: "Intelligence? That takes work." People are born with intelligence just as much as good looks. Both can be equally enhanced with some work. Geeks aren't intelligent because they've "worked" at it. They're just intelligent and happen to follow some sort of passion. That's it. This chick needs to get over herself. Now, I'm not saying people don't misuse the word "geek," but let's quit it with the arrogance and elitism.
I should also point out that not all people that would be co
Robots explain it all (Score:4, Funny)
Nerd: Builds robots.
Geek: Role plays a robot
Dork: Dances like a robot
Weird assumptions (Score:2)
'The difference between brains and beauty is that you're more or less born into good looks â" entitled, if you will. Intelligence? That takes work.
This statement embodies some weird assumptions. First, that good looks are hereditary? You'd be surprised at what exercise, diet, good grooming, and fashion sense can do.
And second, that intelligence takes work. Clearly effort makes a big difference, but some people are as mentally gifted as others are physically gifted. A really intelligent person will
Yup. (Score:2)
Remember when the term "hippie" used to refer to hard-working idealists?
OK -- sliiiight over-exaggeration perhaps. But at least those people existed. Really. So I'm told :-)
But anyway, now it's used to refer to any old bum. Bummer.
And while we're on the topic, this was also the generation that popularized the word "freak", with many parallels to today's "geek". Just goes to show that the underdog is often right and the masses are just... masses. Then again, that's language for you: http://www.word-origins.c [word-origins.com]
Height correlation? (Score:3)
Has anyone ventured off their campus only to find people that didn't go to college to be much taller. I TA freshman physics classes and there is a height difference just between the engineering tech majors(algebra bases class) compared to true engineering majors(calc based class). The intelligence gap is even more noticeable, yet those tech kids seem to put in more effort than the smarter ones.
And everyone I TA seems to put in more effort than I did, and none of them are going into physics.
Cut Miss USA some slack (Score:5, Informative)
Miss USA was only 1 of 2 contestants in the contest to come out for teaching evolution only, and
spoke about it correctly referenced the stuart and tudor eras when talking about history,
talked about her book collection and has come out in favor of gay marriage.
She may not be a geek in the slashdot tradition but shes geek-friendly and since there is not
an overabundance of geek friendly smart hot girls I say cut her some slack.
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Also, that kind of obsessive enthusiasm is highly associated with Aspergers'.
I've long since figured that geek/nerd * had to do with an obsessive enthusiasm, yet does it have to be enthusiasm for computer-tech or something else intellectual?
For instance, a lot of pop culture seems to engender a love/hate relationship, so what about people who are particularly enthusiastic about some aspect of that?
* (don't want to get into a terminology discussion over the differences of those two)