Windows 8 Won't Support Plug-Ins; the End of Flash? 661
An anonymous reader writes "The Microsoft Windows Engineering Team has announced that the Metro interface web browser in Windows 8 will not support plug-ins — Adobe Flash included. Users will still be able to open a traditional browser interface to make use of legacy sites that rely upon plug-ins. This news follows a recent blog post by the Internet Explorer 10 team pushing the use of HTML5 video as a replacement to Flash video. With Google, Apple, Mozilla, Opera and other major players already backing HTML5 — is Adobe Flash finally dead?"
Microsoft (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
Using patented shit formats. So yes, they are.
Re:Microsoft (Score:4, Interesting)
H.264 is technically better format too. That's why it should be picked, not based on some religious free software views.
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As opposed to what? All the formats are patented.
Yes, but the primary patent on VP8 is released under an "irrevocable free patent license". From Wikipedia:
On May 19, 2010 Google released VP8 codec software under a BSD-like license and the VP8 bitstream format specification under an irrevocable free patent license...
OTOH H.264 is covered by a range of patents, and payment for the use of the codec is mandatory in all countries which recognise software patents. Whilst there may be some submarine patents still lurking on parts of VP8, it sounds like a far safer bet in the long run. I suspect that the only reason Apple and Microsoft want H.264 is because it raises the cost bar for potential competitors in the browser m
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It's difficult to create a free browser when you have to cough up for codec licensing to some patent troll.
But you don't have to. Both Windows and Mac OSX include H.264 support in the system, and Linux has their own counterparts too. Your browser can just use what the OS offers.
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Both Windows and Mac OSX include H.264 support in the system
Windows XP does not. Nor do Windows Vista Home Basic, Windows Vista Business, or Windows 7 Starter.
and Linux has their own counterparts too.
These counterparts aren't included with Ubuntu or Fedora due to patent issues in the world's biggest industrialized anglophone market. Which counterparts are you thinking of?
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It's not "when it was released", it's when it was "sold to you".
XP is far younger when you consider the meaningful age from the point of view of a consumer.
XP is only really as old as it's last service pack.
The only lawful response is Cancel (Score:5, Informative)
The counterparts that get automatically installed the first time you try to play an h264 file.
The first time the user tries to play such a file, you get a warning to the effect "This media requires a non-free decoder. Installing and using this decoder may violate patent law or other restrictions in some countries. Click Install only if you have verified that these restrictions do not apply to you." If a computer is on United States soil, the only lawful response is Cancel. After the user has clicked Cancel, the dialog shows up again for every subsequent H.264 video.
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Patents expire long after the technology in question has been superseded by something else...
Look at the patents on MPEG-1 or MPEG-2, those were considered good video formats just a few years ago but are now considered obsolete, and yet still many patents on them have not expired. By the time the patents on h.264 expire, it will be a legacy codec that noone has used for years.
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Re:Microsoft (Score:4, Interesting)
they aren't confident in the codebase being patent free.
And how could they be? By reviewing the 1.5 trillion software patents already on record?
Re:Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
H.264 is technically better format too. That's why it should be picked, not based on some religious free software views.
Not all concerns about the Freedom to use a technology are matters of obsessive fanboyism or faith. There are plenty of pragmatic concerns associated with IP that only the most reckless would choose to ignore. A technology can be 1000x better than anything else that exists but still be effectively useless or a huge risk to end-users or business management. As an end user, I don't want my choices limited by how many technologies a prospective vendor can afford to employ. As a developer, I want to be able to create or fix technologies I encounter without much bureaucracy, being hindered by secrecy or risking having all of my hard work phased out through planned obsolescence strategies. As a business owner, I don't want the items purchased by my business to be hindered by cumbersome, nuanced, legal agreements. In my view, the diversity and innovation facilitated by Free software is almost always better even in cases where proprietary counterparts have a few more features or slightly better performance. Essentially, the freedom to do what you want has its own innate value that, while hard to quantify, should be thoroughly considered before making *any* important decisions, both technology-related and otherwise. It's not always easy to predict when and how those restrictions might hinder your opportunities in the future.
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Open source h.264 encoders probably aren't legal to use in the US or Germany due to software patents (and I don't know about other countries). Since software patents need to be filed by country (except for the European Union where they can be filed for the entire EU, but software patents are harder to get in the EU than in Germany, so in some cases they are filed in both), such an encoder may be perfectly legal to use in most countries outside the United States. Just because you can legally download somethi
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h.264 is patented, but it is by no means "shit".
Re:Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because it's Situation Normal, doesn't mean it's not All Fucked Up.
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MP3 is just as patented as H.264. Do you listen to MP3s?
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... HTML5 video would have happened without it. It's already well on its way.
That's almost like the usual "2012 will be the year of desktop!". We've been talking about HTML5 video for years and it has gone nowhere, except for a few special cases from Google (which have required you to install Chrome to view them, by the way). Even Google doesn't use HTML5 video on YouTube, and their old experimental test player is broken as hell and lacking a lot of things that the Flash player has.
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We've been talking about HTML5 video for years and it has gone nowhere, except for a few special cases from Google (which have required you to install Chrome to view them, by the way). Even Google doesn't use HTML5 video on YouTube, and their old experimental test player is broken as hell and lacking a lot of things that the Flash player has.
My iPad gets video via Mobile Safari all the time. Are you sure that's not HTML 5 video? There's quite a number of iPads, iPhones and iPod Touches out there seeing video. Even people hesitant to just embrace HTML 5 video because of DRM needs/desires seem to be acknowledging Flash isn't a necessity, look at the various apps like the Android and iOS Netflix app.
Also, my latest notebook (MacBook Air) didn't ship with Flash. I have a copy of Chrome with Flash installed "just in case", but Safari seems to play
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The answer is - iPhone/Mac/Safari uses the h.264 interface on YouTube ... regardless of HTML5
Apple do not seem to like Flash - for good reasons - and so have persuaded Google to allow it's software to use the native codecs regardless of HTML 5 support
the iPhone has a specific chip to decode h.264
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so microsoft has magically changed because they are pushing HTML5? Wow man, I'd better forget all of those antitrust cases and anti-google marketing and anti-apple marketing, plus patent trolling and patent litigation.
Leopards don't change their spots.
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And care to link some of those anti-google and anti-apple marketing or patent trolling Microsoft is doing? Because they are not. Microsoft has never patent trolled anyone, they have only used their patents when someone has attacked them or when there has been a good case. Patent trolling is co
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Google is currently being investigated for a lot of shit in various countries, not Microsoft.
Really that's your argument? A bunch of people don't like their photos taken in public and complain when someone records their open wifi connections and you compare it to the largest anti-trust case the world has ever witnessed?
Welcome to planet earth stranger, we hope you enjoy your visit.
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this is the funniest thing I have ever seen.
Remind me who is collecting royalties on android right now?
Remind me who is using patents to defend themselves against microsoft right now?
I know you might think microsoft is magical, or be employed by them, or generally think they might be ethical, but changes of that kind take 50-100 years, not the timespan it takes you to write up something purporting a change that has not occurred.
Where's microsoft contributing open source voluntarily, and REAL open source (an
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I don't think so. What Microsoft did to get OOXML passed is utterly corrupt, and to me at least it carries the same stench of thuggery. Microsoft's management hires good people the way some combatants surround themselves with schoolchildren.
GP's probably got Facebook's campaigns misattributed to Microsoft, but I think he misused the term patent trolling only somewhat: Microsoft has been claiming patent infringement (~we have here a list of 235 patent infringements in Linux~) without ever specifying what pa
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FAT patents (Score:2)
So Microsoft is fairly collecting royalties on what technologies they have researched and developed
Which read-write file system for removable storage media is 1. supported in Windows and 2. not patented?
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Which read-write file system for removable storage media is 1. supported in Windows and 2. not patented?
Now, practical to use would be another question ;)
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Microsoft has changed but only because their competition changed. Going from other competitors selling OS'es (Amiga, BeOS, Commodore) with similar business models to Linux and open source (can't undercut free), Google (mostly untouchable through search and internet applications) and Apple stuck to defining their own thing which nobody has the patience to emulate.
This means MS don't have the same grip on the industry anymore, they use to say MS WAS the industry in the 90's. Now they have to actually do some
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And yet here they are *TIGHTLY* integrating the browser into the OS (you know, just like Chrome does)
Apple too. They do the same thing with OS X and Safari. It's funny to hear all the Macheads who still badmouth MS for that case in the 90's, completely oblivious to the fact that Apple is doing the EXACT same thing today that got MS in trouble back then (bundling its own browser with its OS).
The whole case was a relic of the 90's that should have never even made it to trial. Bundling a default browser with the your OS today is the norm, but in the 90's it was a new idea. If you tried to bring that case toda
Re:Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
And the story has the DRM/Straitjacket icon? Seriously, WTF? The reporting on this story is just terrible, even by Slashdot standards.
Headline: "Windows 8 Won't Support Plug-Ins ..." ..."
Reality: "... Metro interface web browser in Windows 8 will not support plug-ins
This announcement sounds perfectly reasonable to me--not having plugins in the Metro browser closes a lot of security holes and eliminates crap like Flash that's proprietary, hurts performance, etc. It's a competitive move that raises the bar for other browsers to become more secure and stop supporting things that people don't want.
Microsoft is not the evil company that this site thinks it still is. Time to find a new whipping boy, Slashdot.
Re:Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft is only going to support the codecs they want to support, so this is just another way of leveraging what's left of their monopoly position — it's just more evil. The real goal is to murder Flash which competes with Microsoft's own technologies, like the supposedly-soon-to-be-abandoned Silverlight. Silverlight is pure canned shit compared to Flash. You can't even sync video to vtrace on XP. Microsoft literally traded a seat on their board for Netflix using Silverlight instead of Flash. As a result, there is no Linux support.
Fuck Microsoft, and fuck the horse that rode in on them.
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Besides, you can develop Silverlight with
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It's still locked to Microsoft platforms. Flash is bad, Silverlight is worse.
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They just made HTML5 video reality.
Not really.
My mom: "YouTube doesn't work on my new laptop."
Me: "Install Firefox or Chrome or Opera or Safari or Netscape Navigator 4.1"
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They are - we've barely had decent Flash acceleration for a year and they're already killing it. I wonder if HTML5 video will be fully hardware accelerated on graphics cards that support H264 hardware acceleration...
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The lack of plugin support will only serve to kill Metro as a browser platform, not Flash.
iPad doesn't have Flash either and it's doing all fine. Note that Metro interface is designed mostly for tablets and as a simplistic interface for casual users.
But you're right, it won't kill of Flash because it's used for other stuff than video too. The existing video sites will just sniff the user-agent and serve HTML5 video instead of Flash if required. They're both H.264 encoded anyway, so it should be easy, and they have to do it for iPhones and iPads anyway.
SVG animation (Score:3)
Note that Metro interface is designed mostly for tablets and as a simplistic interface for casual users.
But aren't "casual users" the ones most likely to be playing SWF games on Newgrounds and Facebook and the like?
But you're right, it won't kill of Flash because it's used for other stuff than video too.
Including vector animated series such as Homestar Runner and Weebl and Bob.
The existing video sites will just sniff the user-agent and serve HTML5 video instead of Flash if required.
SVG animation is reportedly even more CPU intensive than Flash animation, and converting it to H.264 or VP8 would bloat its bitrate by a factor of ten.
they have to do it for iPhones and iPads anyway.
How well do iPhones and iPads display SVG animation?
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It pains me to say this, but Homestarrunner is dead. There were a total of three videos put out in 2010, and none so far in 2011.
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How well do iPhones and iPads display SVG animation?
Not likely well enough. I tried Google's Swiffy to convert a Homestar Runner cartoon to HTML5 (which uses SVG for the animation). It worked surprisingly well, except for the lack of audio support, the text in the cartoon appearing line-by-line rather than appearing behind the sbemail cursor, and the edges of shapes not quite lining up the same way as the original flash (creating borders where shapes overlap or don't quite perfectly). Performance on the desktop was, while I didn't look at CPU usage, the same
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WebKit supports some of SVG, but not all of it, so iPhones and iPads should support it to some extent.
The problem with SVG is nobody ever finished an implementation of it, even to this day. For a long time everyone used Adobe's SVG plugin because it supported about 70% of the spec.I had to support code for years that only worked in Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 with Adobe's SVG viewer (which Adobe itself hasn't supported since 2009) because support for features we needed was never implemented by anyone else
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I have several customers who have purchased iPad and the lack of flash support is a big turn off to all of them. I have one person specifically who has decided to sell their iPad and wait until they 'mature' into a device that will actually run the websites he's interested in. The iPad is doing alright for a fad device, but when you hobble something then expect users to be somewhat put off by it. Just image how much better they would continue to do if they had just added flash support.
It's good you dropped in the anecdote. Before I read about your one person, I was beginning to think the vast majority of people couldn't care less and tens of millions of these suckers were going to be sold every year.
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I was beginning to think the vast majority of people couldn't care less and tens of millions of these suckers were going to be sold every year
Tens of millions, worldwide, is a tiny number of sales compared to mobile phones or computers. El Reg published some statistics the week showing that something like 3% of the population of the UK had an iPad. I'd certainly be happy if 3% of the UK population gave me £1 each - and Apple's profit margin is a lot more than £1 per device - but it's still nowhere near a majority. It's about 73% of the tablet market, but it's a tiny fraction of the personal computing device market.
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Ooh! Ooh! Pick me, pick me! Oh thank you, Sir!
The correct answer is: Yes, but we don't want the flash ads, online minigames are the facedevilbook's work so who needs that crap when you can play Angry Birds on your iDevice, and who seriously still watches Strongbad e-mails anyway?
At least, that's the excuses I've gathered from previous discussions.
Re:Microsoft (Score:5, Funny)
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Do they consider silverlight is a plugin?
Yes, and Silverlight won't run in Metro either.
That's what happens when you say no to Microsoft. (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember all those rumors of Microsoft wanting to buy Adobe?
This is payback for saying "No" to Uncle Stevie. You can be sure that if the deal had gone through, flash would not only have been supported, but integrated into the next release of IE.
Re:That's what happens when you say no to Microsof (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe, or maybe, the IE team, like the Firefox team, is awfully tired of their software being used as a vector for Flash's seemingly infinite supply of vulnerabilities.
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I don't care what the rationale is, the death of Flash would be a good thing.
Silverlight? (Score:3)
Maybe, or maybe, the IE team, like the Firefox team, is awfully tired of their software being used as a vector for Flash's seemingly infinite supply of vulnerabilities.
Or maybe, just maybe, Microsoft is tired of anything being a vector for software they don't own. Here goes the anti-trust lawsuits again, especially if they use any form of Silverlight... and you can bet your ass Adobe will sue then (and win or settle for a large sum).
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The people who run Slashdot obviously noticed, because they sure as hell aren't saying no to these ads MS is putting in the queue.
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What else exactly is going on in the tech world? You have tons of new information about the next version of the most popular operating system in the world coming from a developers conference of all places. It's literally the definition of both news for nerds and stuff that matters. Not everyone who reads /. is a linux zealot. We have jobs developing for windows, and this news is crucial.
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ok i agree that slash advertisements are bad.. but to be fair.. Most of the desktop world runs Windows which is MS. and any news of an actual difference between current and expected version is actual news when it can effect ~2-4 billion people.
NewGrounds (Score:3)
So it won't be possible to play NewGrounds games with that browser?
Boring...
The more important point here (Score:5, Insightful)
The lack of Adobe Flash support shouldn't be the issue here. The real thing that should concern us is that it won't support *ANY* plug-in. It seems like everything is becoming a walled garden these days. For a long time, the trend for browsers was MORE "modability" and freedom, not less. Now we're going backwards.
I just hope Mozilla doesn't get any ideas. Firefox is still the best browser out there for add-ons.
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all the ifans say you can do everything in HTML5 so no plug in needed
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If HTML5 could deliver on even half the abilities its devotees seem to think it can, it would also come with free unicorns and pixie dust.
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I think people here are blinded by their hatred for flash. But it's not flash that's the problem, but rather the misuse of it all over the web, and the way it can hog the CPU rather than giving it only x percent, or the way one can't isolate which tab has the flash app running.
Okay, things could be better in the flash world, but to restrict it, and *all other plugins* is restricting freedom in exactly the kind of way that Slashdotters would usually despise. I think MS are just trying to copy Apple, and that
Re:The more important point here (Score:4, Informative)
there is a big difference between add-ons & gadgets & plugins.
if you look at FF & Chrome their extensions/add-ons work in a predefined and hopefully secure environment. IE"s "plug-ins" work at raw executable code level at the users permission level and there for can not easily be contained by the browser, hence how easy it is to use a hole in flash to infect the system.
MS would be stupid not to allow extensions/add-ons in the same manner that FF and Chrome and i believe Opera does. But killing "plug-ins" is by far a great decision for security and overall long-term usage.
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When did slashdot turn into the "please let me run proprietary binaries from a third party in my browser perfectly supporting HTML and Javascript so I can make ads and the 9913th Flash movie player" support forum?
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What plug-ins do you actually need for your mobile browser?
How about a plug-in to play Strong Bad Emails and other vector animations? SVG animation is possible in theory, but in practice, it's far behind Flash in frame rate.
And, more importantly, what freedom for the vast majority of non-geek users is being limited by the lack of plug-ins in their mobile browsers?
The freedom to make and publish vector animations.
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Crippled Toy!!! (Score:2)
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sent from my iPod
Incoming money-quote: (Score:4, Informative)
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If I had mod-points today you'd get them all. There's a button in the metro-style IE to switch to the desktop-IE which does support plugins. This is about battery consumption and providing a consistent touch-interface in metro. Plug-ins (especially Java and Flash) are terrible for pegging the CPU at 100% to display some ads, which sucks down battery like it's going out of style.
The desktop IE still supports plugins and trusted activeX and everything else that IE9 has.
Nope (Score:5, Informative)
In Windows 8, IE 10 is available as a Metro style app and as a desktop app. The desktop app continues to fully support all plug-ins and extensions.
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Yes, basically it's just saying Microsoft is making it's tablets/phones like the iPhone in not supporting Flash, whilst all normal desktop browsers and Android phones will continue to support it - and most importantly - other plugins too.
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Are you sure? I was under the impression Metro was only optional on the desktop, but mandatory on phones, and possibly tablets?
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Holly crap. Well what could possibly go wrong. Good heavens what a mess if you use IE this one on this machine it supports x if you use it that way on the same machine it doesn't freaking great consistent experience.
Who cares if it's dead? Kill it -- with fire. (Score:2, Insightful)
Flash is the single buggiest, leakiest, most insecure and least reliable piece of software on your average PC.
Adobe keeps it out of scrutiny despite its many problems. Using it means relying on a company with a history of buying promising products, only to let them fester through a lack of updates. Writing code for Flash is like throwing it into a failed tributary of history.
Let's move away from these weird closed standards.
Who has the most clout in this battle? (Score:2)
I don't think Microsoft really has that much clout anymore. There are consumer choices now, and they can just arbitrarily decide to drop support for something without repercussions.
exaggerated rumors... (Score:2)
Flash isn't dead until Netcraft confirms it! :-P
Stupid Title (Score:5, Insightful)
Once again, this is a stupid title for an article.
Here's the truth: Windows 8 supports everything Windows 7 supports. In Windows 8, there will be TWO IE browsers, though. The "regular", desktop browser which acts the same as IE9 does today (i.e. it will support plugins) and a "Metro-style" browser, which is more geared towards touch and tablet use. THIS is what won't support plugins. That's it!
If you need to use a plugin, you can push a button and be taken to the desktop version of IE. Or, you know, use a different web browser.
Why is this "DRM"? (Score:2)
Only the "Metro IE" is Plug-In Free (Score:2)
Metro IE is plug-in free ... Click a button in it to view it in the "other IE" or launch IE from the "Desktop" and you get good old IE 10 complete with chrome and plug-ins and all the blinky Flash ads you can handle!
Thank you Mr. Peabody (Score:2)
launch IE from the "Desktop" and you get good old IE 10
Thank you, traveler, for this post from the future. I am reassured that "good old IE 10" will have been running Flash. What's IE 11 going to have been like?
Hope I got my time-travel grammar right there. ;^)
(Otherwise, spot on, as many have pointed out.)
What button to view it in the other IE? (Score:2)
Metro IE is plug-in free ... Click a button in it to view it in the "other IE"
But how easy will it be for users to find the "Use Desktop View" button that the article mentions?
Makes sense (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft said the Metro interface will be loaded with a minimal Windows 8 back end (DLLs, drivers, etc), to make loading it quick and use less memory, if they supported plugins that would put an unknown amount of time on loading and memory usage and rely on 3rd parties for a fast browsing experience, especially on slower tablet devices.
No plugins, huh? So, no java web start either? (Score:2)
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That spells the end of a lot (not all) of Java's usefulness too.
Er, but nobody ever actually uses Java for web applets or whatever, they use it as a normal programming language to write traditional apps.
is Adobe Flash finally dead? (Score:2)
How I see this... (Score:5, Funny)
Adobe Flash: I'm not dead.
The Internet: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
Google: Yes he is.
Flash: I'm not.
The Internet: He isn't.
Opera Software: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
Flash: I'm getting better.
Mozilla: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
The Internet: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
Flash: I don't want to go on the cart.
Apple: Oh, don't be such a baby.
The Internet: I can't take him.
Flash: I feel fine.
W3C: Oh, do us a favor.
The Internet: I can't.
Google: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
The Internet: I promised I'd be at the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.
Apple: Well, when's your next round?
The Internet: Thursday.
Flash: I think I'll go for a walk.
Mozilla: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do?
Flash: I feel happy. I feel happy.
[Microsoft glances up and down the street furtively, then silences Flash with his a whack of his club]
W3C: Ah, thank you very much.
The Internet: See you on Thursday.
Flash: not just for video (Score:2)
Sadly, Flash is used for more than just video clips and silly games.
Some major products use Flash websites. The latest version of BMC's monitoring tool, for example (ProactiveNet), has a Flash frontend. For reasons best known to BMC, they migrated from a relatively normal, albeit JavaScript heavy, web frontend to Flash. I'm sure there are other examples.
At work, at least, any browser I use has to support Flash. It would be really handy to have remote access to the monitoring site from a tablet device, but t
Good (Score:2)
Thank you, Microsoft.
Plug-ins are a hack to get around an issue that doesn't exist anymore.
FTC will prosecute them for monopoly practices (Score:2)
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The real question is ... what does Netcraft have to say about all this?