Teacher Union Tries To Block Online Courses 608
itwbennett writes "Facing budget problems, University of California officials and state analysts say that expanding online courses could help them 'innovate out of the current crisis.' But the lecturers whose jobs are at stake see it differently. Now the UC chapter of the American Federation of Teachers is fighting to block online courses."
NEW tried this and failed (Score:4, Interesting)
Stanford disagrees (Score:5, Interesting)
Once you get beyond that level, most people need face-to-face interaction to really understand the subject.
Standford's AI course, currently ongoing, says otherwise.
So does the Standford iPhone programming course which a LOT of people have used to learn iPhone development.
None of this is 101 stuff (well perhaps the first few iPhone courses but not beyond that).
Re:Unions College educated people (Score:4, Interesting)
"This isn't a coal mine or dangerous factory job. "
You should really get informed.
http://www.ivorytowerblues.com/ [ivorytowerblues.com]
Right now corporations are trying to privatize education to limit political views so they can turn the world into a right wing aristocracy. Universities in Canada and around the world have become more and more dependent on corporate donors and this means freedom of inquiry will be stifled big time. Do you really think rich conservative right wingers want any criticism of capitalism or protection for the poor? There was a big thing at U of T about naming something after Tommy douglas (tommy was father of 'socialist healthcare' in canada which pisses off the corps and right wingers and they still hate him for it) and the administration said 'no' because they were worried about offending the ideals of their donors and the donors denying them future funds. This means universities will become hotbeds of corporatist and unchecked capitalist propaganda and damn the scientific evidence. No thanks.
Re:Union Featherbedding, Meh (Score:4, Interesting)
If you think featherbedding is the norm among academic faculty, you don't know enough about academia to have a meaningful opinion on the subject.
I never said that featherbedding in academic faculty was the norm. Perhaps it is only starting here. But that clearly doesn't stop you from completely misrepresenting my statement into a form so that you can attack it.
Re:Union Featherbedding, Meh (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not going to jump to his defense, because the tone of his post (and his sig) represents exactly what I think is wrong with political discourse in this country. Treating politics like a team sport is not helping anyone except for the team ownership.
That said, what the hell is going on with the teacher unions in this country? I understand that they need to protect the interests of their members, but between this kind of blatant protectionist-at-the-expense-of-society and delusional expectation of being insulated from the health care costs that are hitting everyone else, it really isn't helping their image.
Re:Union Featherbedding, Meh (Score:5, Interesting)
IANAPhD, but I nearly was. Quote from a professor: "Getting a PhD is not mostly about learning although that is important, it's about getting things done. If you are a PhD student we in the department will essentially do whatever we can to prevent you from finishing your thesis. If you manage to finish _despite_ us, then you will get the PhD. You will have joined the club of 'people who get things done'. Thereafter schools and other institutions who are looking for people who get things done, and your PhD will tell them that you do."
Re:its not 'unions'. (Score:4, Interesting)
I understand that every social theory gets about 500% more complicated once you take it out of your mental laboratory, but saying that communism is a failure based on the attempts of brain-damaged megalomaniacs like Stalin and Kim Jong Ill is kind of ridiculous. Very few systems have ever been communist even in name, and none have been even remotely close in practice. Not all communist thinkers advocate blind, mooney-eyed collectivism or some socialist plutocracy masquerading as communism; Marx himself never suggested anything of the sort, either.
Human nature probably makes communism the most difficult government to implement, but "most difficult" isn't a synonym for "impossible" and I still think a communist system could be the most rewarding.
Re:Union Featherbedding, Meh (Score:5, Interesting)
Unions are a mixed bag.
On the one hand, unions keep management from forcing unhealthy and unsafe working conditions on their labor pool to save money. (Chained to sewing machines, latex gloves instead of neoprine while using mek, etc.)
On the other, unions are a potentially unchecked power that can quickly overwhelm an employer. (Demands for 6 figure incomes for installing rivets, pension plans to rival those of politicians, increased difficulties in termination of unproductive or poor quality workers, etc.)
Unions are a necessary evil, barring very strict government involvement in private enterprise. (Arguably, having the government mandate work conditions is the single scariest thing a worker can hear...) however, when unions themselves become too large and too powerful, they can have a seriously negative effect on not only the industries they work in, but also for everyone else.
For instance, the intractible 26 page proceedure to fire a union teacher in a public school enables a shocking amount of unsavory and unacceptable behavior to go on in those institutions. A policy enacted to help protect teachers from vindictive parents ends up being a mighty shield behind which people with no businss being educators hide to do deplorable things.
(An example would be the events that transpired a few years ago in a nearby public school, concerning a computer science teacher touching female students inappropriately. Since physical evidence could be collected to prove the allegations, his teaching career didn't even miss a beat... until a few years later when he stopped just touching, and got a student pregnant. Even then, I understand it was still difficult to fire him.)
Unions are a good thing when they are kept on the smaller side. When they grow up, they become dangerous, self-serving monstrocities in their own right.
The GP appears to be referring to this latter stage of development in the maturation of unions, not the younger, where they serve an important and essential function.
Much like medication, a little is good for the patient, but more isn't always better, and at a certain threshold more becomes downright deadly. The same is true of unions.
Re:Union Featherbedding, Meh (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, I'd suggest that "featherbedding" doesn't really require a union or any other such organization.
My high school didn't have a teachers' union. But I ran into a problem when, in my sophomore year, I decided to learn some math. By around Xmas, I'd gone through all the math texts that were available from the math teachers. Then, when I asked them for advice and help in getting more, I was told that I "wasn't ready for such advanced texts" as basic calculus. In talking to them, it was pretty clear that they were unhappy with me, and I got a real feeling that it was because I'd just made all their "advanced" classes useless (to me).
But I had some friends at a nearby college, so I arranged for them to find more math books that I could borrow. Some came from their profs, some from the math department's library. I also verified that there are other US high schools that teach calculus classes; this didn't endear me to my teachers, either.
Actually, the organizational problems didn't end there. A couple of years later, I found myself at a nearby college, where the math dept offered me "advanced placement" into 2nd-year calculus. It rapidly became obvious that I knew the material better than the prof did. Trying to convince the department to let me transfer to a class where I would learn something was pointless, so I wasted my time getting past that and a few other "pre-req" classes that I had to take despite already knowing the material.
It's easy to interpret all of this as a case of teachers blocking a bright kid's advancement, because the kid is making the teachers look unnecessary. And I had any number of discussions of the topic with other kids with an "attitude problem" similar to mine.
I also eventually ran across a clever explanation: The classroom lecture is the best method developed so far to teach students who can't read. That does describe a large fraction of the US college student population, of course, so the lecturers are still needed for them. But for the rest of us, regardless of the presence of unions, we're still likely to run into blockades that force us to sit still while the instructors work for their pay.
Since then, I have occasionally wondered whether my getting involved in Internet software development will eventually have any effect on this general problem. If so, don't make the mistake of thinking it was accidental. The topic at hand has been discussed behind the scenes, at least by a few of us. Online "classes" are just one of the attempts to alleviate such problems. There are many students in the world who don't have local access to good teachers, but who do know how to read. I'm one net.developer who isn't very sympathetic with teachers who try to block students' access to information.
Re:its not 'unions'. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Union Featherbedding, Meh (Score:4, Interesting)
"The Peter Principle" has a great explanation.
There's a story where a new teacher is assigned the "problem students" class in a bottom year who are kept a grade or two below the other classes in their year. With persistence and individual attention, she gets everyone to the same level as average students two years ahead of them. Now there's a problem - parental expectations all round have been raised, and the students are now out of sync with what the teaching board expects of them, creating problems for the teachers for the next two years. She is promptly fired by the school for not following the prescribed syllabus.
It's bizarre that the teachers should have this attitude. How do they handle the fact that there are online forums for maths help, science, mathematics, chemistry, physics, arts news sites and blogs, university books and research papers available for free download, as well as available cheap second hand books. What about parents who have university degrees, neighbors kids or older siblings who are at college? Not forgetting the dozens of art and programming guide magazines available in magazine racks at supermarkets? Are they aware that the exam boards usually sell the exam syllabus booklets for a few dollars each to anyone who wishes to buy them?
For me, getting through high school during the teachers strike, was achieved by purchasing "Lett's study guides" to each subject. These were A-level/SYS textbooks available for about $3 each in every subject from languages to sciences and technical drawing.