Are We Failing To Prepare Children For Leadership In the US? 754
Vulcan195 writes "Would you let your three-year-old play with a real saw? You would if you were a parent in Switzerland. Suzanne Lucas (a U.S. mom residing in Switzerland) writes about the contrasts between the U.S. and Swiss ways of instilling wisdom. She writes: 'Every Friday, whether rain, shine, snow, or heat, my three-year-old goes into the forest for four hours with 10 other school children. In addition to playing with saws and files, they roast their own hot dogs over an open fire. If a child drops a hot dog, the teacher picks it up, brushes the dirt off, and hands it back.' She suggests that such kids grow up and lead the ones who were coddled (e.g. U.S. kids) during their early years."
Re:Not very new. (Score:5, Interesting)
In the US they call it Scouts. (Score:5, Interesting)
They teach crafts, hard work and leadership. The problem is Boy Scouts has become stigmatized, lampooned, and in recent years depicted as homophobic. Girl Scouts spends too much time focused on selling cookies.
Public schools wouldn't put a saw or hammer in a child's hand. It would take five minutes for an upset parent or a lawyer to show up. You can thank our overly litigious society for closing doors on an idea like this. And as a parent, I can tell you I'd need a high level of trust in the instructor before I let them take my kids alone into the woods.
Before you can lead you must learn to follow. (Score:2, Interesting)
If you want to prepare children for leadership, the first thing that they need to learn is that responsibility is earned. Too often today those who excel are denigrated so as not to harm the feelings of those less capable. In this type of environment, those who would lead are discouraged from doing so and those who could possibly learn to lead are taught to sit back and go with the flow.
Re:In the US they call it Scouts. (Score:5, Interesting)
Public schools wouldn't put a saw or hammer in a child's hand. It would take five minutes for an upset parent or a lawyer to show up. You can thank our overly litigious society for closing doors on an idea like this.
Football (the US variety, that is).
We don't seem to have a problem sending them out onto the field to risk suffering head injuries that will leave them a bunch of drooling idiots .....
Is it really that bad? (Score:4, Interesting)
The description of the Swiss mentality sounds quite normal to me as a Finn. Is the US really as bad as the article implies?
If so, what happened? Is it the insane damages you can sue for in the US that caused a climate of fear?
My kids have played with hammers saws and knives too, obviously being guided how to use those tools first. Just today my 5-year-old son was chopping carrots while we were preparing food. Had to stop him once when his big brother went WOW in front of the TV and he was about to run and check with the blade pointing in front of him. Now he probably remembers to put down the knife the next time. :)
Bubble wrapped their lives (Score:5, Interesting)
I grew up in a different time, a time when children of all ages had expectation of behavior and responsibility handed to them at a very early age, and since I've become an adult I've watched the population coddle children more and more. I remember my uncle literally bubble wrapping the edges of tables and furniture so his little girl would not take a bump to the head. I mean really, he bubble wrapped shit.
If children don't learn right away how to protect themselves they do become rather weak, and the miss very important lessons. Gone are the days when a child could take a BB gun and shoot cans in the back yard. Gone are the days when children knew not to touch a hot stove because they've already learned that lesson. Gone are the days when children would be given homework in public schools an were expected to do more than 5 mins of homework a day. Gone are the days when we expected children to learn a subject well enough that they could write an essay about their knowledge.
Our children are poor in math, poor in reading, poor in data retention, poor in knowing right from wrong. Our children don't know common sense, how can they when an education system has a zero tolerance foundation. What happened to having the ability to stand up for ones convictions and not being suspended or expelled for it.
We American adults only have ourselves to blame. We've coddled the world. But this stems back to our litigious society. We put warning labels on the most ridiculous thing because some child received a Darwin award for drowning in a bucket, or some lady wins 8 million dollars because McDonald's didn't put a warning label on the coffee cup "Caution contents are very hot". We sue if someone wrongs us, even if we failed to read directions, or to use some sound judgment.
I'm not saying all litigation is wrong, just the frivolous ones. I'm not saying some safeguards are needed, but "coffee is hot" is a bit too much. I'm not saying that all kids won't struggle to learn, most will, and it's those struggles (which sometimes end with injury or death) that we learn from the most.
Allow violence on TV. Allow kids to be kids. Stop bubble wrapping our next generations.
Cooking Hot Dogs != Leadership (Score:5, Interesting)
I find the concept that handling saws, and roasting hotdogs prepares children for leadership positions ridiculous. Every child that roasts a hot dog will become a world class leader? Ridiculous. Now, if you want to say group activities will allow a couple kids out of the group to develop leadership skills that I would believe. But really, when my siblings gather in a pack of 5-6, unsupervised in my parents back yard I'd argue that they are developing more leadership skills then some Swiss tikes that have an adult supervisor just about any day.
Leave children zoning out solo on the TV, reading books, tinkering with a computer, or tweaking lawn mower and they are not developing leadership skills. Not everyone needs to be a leader though.
Re:Monday Morning Troll (Score:5, Interesting)
to grind away at "why don't we totally defund public education, it's clearly not working".
I was finishing my masters degree with this conversation started, in earnest, on the national level. I thought to myself, "Well, it can't be that bad, there's just a few wingnuts that believe that."
Flash forward - now when you read the news, watch television, or do anything except talk to a teacher, you hear about how piss-poor the US educational system is. My opinion is that private enterprise has already sucked up as much money as it can from the larger portions of government money (energy, food, transportation, communications and banking), so they have set their sights on their latest cash-cow to bleed out (see shock-economics and its impact on South America for examples of what they really want to do - we just have controls in place to stop that scale of greed, so they settle for playing by the legal rules). What's the best way to do that? Swing public opinion using news outlets, and let the masses cut their own throats.
I, for one, welcome our new upper-upper-upper class overlords, and am excited to see the new and fascinating changes that will take place for people living in poverty! We won't have to worry about 'class warfare', because we simply won't learn about that option. If you want to go full-blown tin-foil hat, consider this: We are already accused of indoctrinating our children to the 'myth of US superiority' on a regular basis. What if that changes to 'the myth of the superiority of rich folks'? Pair that with the recent articles about genetic research and altering genes to make perfect babies, and what do we get? Two, distinct types of humans - the ruling elite and the working monsters.
Oh, man, I'm going to be a kick-ass Morlock.
As a side note - I don't believe that it will go that far, but I firmly believe that this type of story is part of a conscious, concerted effort to dismantle public education.
Re:In the US they call it Scouts. (Score:5, Interesting)
There is physical risk in every sport. Don't drink the press koolaid. There are more injuries in cheer-leading then in football*. Organized school sports provide plenty of opportunity to learn and sharpen leadership/organizational skills.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheerleading#Dangers_of_cheerleading [wikipedia.org]
"Out of the United States' 2.9 million female high school athletes, only 3% are cheerleaders, yet cheerleading accounts for 65% of all catastrophic injuries in girls' high school athletics. Since the NCAA has yet to recognize cheerleading as an official college sport, there are no solid numbers on college cheerleading, yet when it comes to injuries, 67% of female athlete injuries at the college level are due to cheerleading mishaps.[citation needed] LiveScience.com recaps new evidence showing that the most dangerous sport for high school and college females is cheerleading: Another study found that between 1982 and 2007, there were 103 fatal, disabling or serious injuries recorded among female high school athletes, with the vast majority (67) occurring in cheerleading."
Re:Not very new. (Score:4, Interesting)
It depends which children we're talking about (Score:4, Interesting)
Rich kids are definitely trained and prepared for leadership. Somebody like, say, George W Bush was born into wealth, went through the best schools we could come up with, was taught all sorts of skills that would help them run businesses or gain political office, put through a top university, typically followed by business school, and then starts their career near the top of the heap.
Upper-middle class kids go through lower-tier private schools or good public school systems. They are frequently taught leadership through opportunities like running school extracurriculars. They come out of their educational career with the skills they need to start in a white-collar position and work their way into middle management.
Lower-middle class kids go through pretty good public school systems, and learn what they'd need to know to get into college and have a good shot a white-collar job.
Poor kids, on the other hand, are taught to go along with things as best they can. They are given lousy schooling, and it's clear throughout the process that the best they should hope for is to manage the fast food restaurant rather than work for the boss.
There are exceptions to these rules, but they are definitely exceptions. There's some mobility: A bright poor person can work towards a white-collar career, and a real dullard may turn out a failure, but right now the primary determining factor of a kid's economic and educational achievements is the achievements of their parents.
Re:you're all worthless and weak (Score:5, Interesting)
Frankly I find the author quite condescending in the way she compares Swiss children to American children (and I'm Swiss - see where my bias is) but as somebody living in North America, I have to agree with the general point: North American culture is more "protective" of personal comfort and hygiene than most European countries. It's not always a good thing for Swiss culture to be the way it is though. I find that often in Switzerland people are left on their own and can expect zero understanding or accommodations when they have important personal problems. For example, you're very lucky if you suffer from psychological problems (e.g. depression) and your boss gives a shit - most likely he'd tell you to get your shit in order and not let it affect your job or to quit.
On the upside, people in Switzerland go to school or work if they have a cold or just a headache. You can't call in sick for that. There's also a lot less obsession about avoiding germs, and I think that's why I have a strong immune system and get sick less often than my friends in North America.
On the downside, I was made to redo an entire year in high school because I suffered from depression and missed a single exam as a result of it. The school even refused to give me a grade of 0 on that exam (I would have still passed with 0!). Forget compassion in Switzerland - that's one of the shortcomings of that culture.
Overall, Swiss culture produces efficient people who take their responsibilities pretty seriously and who are pretty down to Earth when it comes to the way they look at life. But that culture is also highly elitist and gives up on the weakest members of society very quickly, even when a little help is all that's needed. You're on your own, social support is a luxury even from family and second chances are rare, almost non-existent.
Re:In the US they call it Scouts. (Score:5, Interesting)
Is that the Boy Scouts you are referring to?
Are you kidding? They are a pale shallow immitation of what they were 30 years ago.
I was a scout 40 years ago. My son is a cub scout today. It seems about the same to me.
His den went camping last month. I noticed all the scouts looking into a bucket, so I went over to see what they had. They had caught a rattlesnake (western diamondback to be specific). I think that trumps some Swiss kids playing with a saw.
Re:In the US they call it Scouts. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Always the same BS: 'My way is better because' (Score:5, Interesting)
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. [...] They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” ... attributed to Socrates [yahoo.com].
Re:In the US they call it Scouts. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:As an Uncle (Score:3, Interesting)
And I'm sure your parents taught you why this was bad. It's called 'learning'.
Hell, I grew up in the country, and love my family for that. I grew up rolling in dirt, playing with saws, nailing nails into trees or anything and everything (my dad specifically didn't like it when we thought of the brilliant fun idea of nailing his wooden workbench drawers shut), hacking down small (and some large) trees with hatchets, and literally building weapons which would have parents nowadays absolutely crap their pants. Protip - a 3 foot length of rebar can be filed down nicely to make an amazing spear. We made horribly inaccurate bows and arrows from branches and string, and god knows what else. We literally jumped off the roof of the house into what we thought was soft snowdrifts, only to find it was solid as ice. HOW that never broke one of our spines, I'll never know. We've both fallen and jumped out of trees, or from one tree to another with the only 'safety' being the grass on the ground 20 feet below.
And y'know what? We learned from all of this. We learned what can and can't be done, what hurts, what doesn't, how to use tools, how to work with materials, and generally how to exist. I can fanangle together temporary repairs to damn near anything, using random crap I find around the house, whereas friends who grew up in the city haven't the foggiest clue what to do if their toilet stops flushing properly (not that they would DARE think of putting their hand in that... that WATER in the back resevoir).
I see play structures nowadays where the fricking SWING has a plastic attachment that slides down in front of the kid like a seatbelt. My first thought to that is... how in the hell is the kid going to jump off at the top of the swing with THAT there?!?
I may have gotten a lot of scars growing up (99% of them disappeared over the years), but damnit, those were scars of experience and learning, and I wouldn't trade them for the world.
Re:Not very new. (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was in high school in the late 80's (very rural area, graduating class less than 40) we could bring in our rifles and shotguns to woodshop and rework the stocks. We even got graded on it.
The only caveat was that they had to be unloaded and checked by the shop teacher.
Now you can get in trouble for even bringing a gun magazine into that same school.
In 30 years, "American" will be synonymous with "retard".
parents are too busy working (Score:4, Interesting)
Parents are too busy working multiple minimum wage jobs, or tons of unpaid overtime at their job, to be home spending time with their children. Children simply do not have enough adults in their life. Children spend most of their time in a classroom with 29 of their same-aged peers, and a single adult instructor who is forced to march them around like soldiers just to keep order.
I think it's more of an economic problem; the social problem is a symptom.
Re:Not very new. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:you're all worthless and weak (Score:5, Interesting)
I grew up in Texas, went to school in Indiana, and lived in Iowa for a decade. I now live in Iceland. The way kids are raised here is nothing like the way kids are raised in the US south or midwest. It's not a "we'll call the kids inside if it starts raining" culture, it's a "we'll call the kids inside if the winds are so strong that they can't stand up anymore" culture. Not an exaggeration, by the way.
Kids here are given a great deal of freedom. Parents take them everywhere and let them do their own thing. Random example: I was at a party meeting attended by the prime minister, where the speaker was talking about the reduced unemployment rate under Samfylkingin leadership, and there were little kids running around the room playing. But I guess kids here are used to it, because while I see them often, and often doing their own thing, rarely do they come across as disruptive, whether they're at a meeting, in an office, you name it. And people involve them where not inappropriate - for example, if you see a little kid up on stage at a concert with one of their band-member parents, the kid might well end up introducing the next song.
An example, related to concerts: I was at Iceland's equivalent of Madison Square Garden - Harpa. Up on stage was Kimono, a heavy metal band headed by a transsexual rocker. And in the front row of such a concert? Little kids there with their parents, ages ranging from maybe 2-6. Between songs the lead singer even took the time to explain to the kids the names of the instruments being played. And the best part is, few people here see anything unusual about any aspect of that situation ;) Heck, one school up north held "Skálmöld Day" (Skálmöld being an Icelandic heavy metal band), where all the little kids came dressed in appropriate attire, rocked out to their music during class, etc. The educational theme of the week was violence and lawlessness, so she thought their music would fit perfectly. Of course! :)
Of course it goes without question that you'd take your kids to Hinsegin Dagur ("Queer Pride", Reykjavík's LGBT pride fest - one of if not the largest annual festivals in the country, attended by 1/3rd of the country's population). What's so weird about that? [jorunn.blog.is]
It's not all fun and games. For example, kids often start working earlier, too. But in general, they're not sheltered from the world like American kids are, even in the south and midwest. It's a different culture over here.
And I really like it.
Re:you're all worthless and weak (Score:5, Interesting)
Interesting. Iceland has a lot of the "freedom for children" aspects in Switzerland, but doesn't have that side of the picture, at least in my experience. There's a lot more "banding together". I made the "mistake" of telling one of my coworkers that I had left at meeting at one point so people wouldn't see me cry (I had had a lot of bad stuff happen in a row, the most recent at the time being watching a man nearly die of a heart attack, gasping for breath in front of me in my apartment because he overworked himself helping me move and I didn't know how to call emergency services). My coworker told my boss, who called me into his office, told me I didn't have to stick around that day, but I could if I wanted to be around people, whichever I preferred, and that he'd make sure that the company paid for a psychologist for me to see.
Is there not much bonding between members of a company, or is it just employees vs. management? Here it's like we're all on one team. The American work culture seems strange to people here where coworkers sometimes undercut each other and often don't do anything with each other when they don't have to. Here the starfsmannafélag pays for "extracurricular" company activities almost every week, whether it's a mountain-climbing expedition, "disco bowling", going to the theater or a play, going out to a nice dinner, etc. Back before the economic crisis, starfsmannafélög would sometimes do things like overseas vacations together.
Re:you're all worthless and weak (Score:3, Interesting)
Currently America is FAR, FAR AWAY from the utopia your founding fathers had set it out to be
I'm not sure they ever planed it to be a utopia, just a free nation. Their ideals didn't include any socialism - people were free to find their fortune but also free to fail and end up with nothing. There is no collective responsibility for anything, including bringing up kids.