Cringley: H-1B Visa Abuse Limits Wages and Steals US Jobs 795
walterbyrd sends this snippet from an article by Robert X. Cringely:
"Big tech employers are constantly lobbying for increases in H-1B quotas citing their inability to find qualified US job applicants. Microsoft cofounder Bill Gates and other leaders from the IT industry have testified about this before Congress. Both major political parties embrace the H-1B program with varying levels of enthusiasm. Bill Gates is wrong. What he said to Congress may have been right for Microsoft but was wrong for America and can only lead to lower wages, lower employment, and a lower standard of living. This is a bigger deal than people understand: it's the rebirth of industrial labor relations circa 1920. Our ignorance about the H-1B visa program is being used to unfairly limit wages and steal — yes, steal — jobs from U.S. citizens."
Probably true ... (Score:4, Insightful)
There isn't a shortage of labor, there's a shortage of cheap labor.
Industry just wants to keep making massive amounts of money, but pay their staff less than the salaries the market created.
Re:Probably true ... (Score:5, Informative)
So are you trying to say that by bringing in 60-80k tech workers every year, that salaries will remain 'normal'?
You don't think the H-1B program purposely puts downward pressure on salaries by adding significantly to the supply side of job candidates?
Re: (Score:3)
Well if few jobs are offered at living wages, then how does one live? if enough employers make work conditions intolerable or pay intolerably low wages, your society falls apart. At some point the employer GIVES a job to an employee, so yes, jobs need to be given, once the prissy, passive aggressive, song and dance that has become job seeking today is over and done with. Americans don't want to live like sardines in a can like the cheap labor places do. Either they will be made to, and thus america becomes
This article is ridiculous. (Score:5, Informative)
This article fails to even mention that H-1B visas are dual intent - green card applications are common for H-1B visa holders, and many large tech companies encourage green card application as an employee retention mechanism.
I'm surprised (Score:5, Insightful)
That this isn't common knowledge, corporations are trying to return us to 1800's regulation, it isn't just the H1B's, it's every facet of the larger corporations.
what is the average H1-B wage? (Score:4, Interesting)
what is the average H1-B wage?
I don't think H1-b workers are cheap, plus the Visa+lawyer fees
Re:what is the average H1-B wage? (Score:5, Interesting)
The law says prevailing wage... but it is never enforced.
Re:what is the average H1-B wage? (Score:4, Insightful)
That is easy to answer. They are paid the same as Americans. However, for the most part, they are much more supplicant. In other words, they'll kiss their boss' ass and we know how much they love that. There is a fear that they will be fired and forced to return home.
Immigration Is Good (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Immigration Is Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really. Under the visa, they can only stay a few years.
In the long term, you're training foreign nationals to do your jobs, and then take that knowledge with them.
Competing with India for wages in the long term is a losing proposition ... they have vastly more room to go up, than you do down.
I'm willing to bet of the 500,000 or so tech workers with H1B visas, there's almost as many of your own citizens in the same field who are out of work. This is just a cheap labor pool for corporations, and short term benefits.
Re: (Score:3)
Sure, immigrants are probably good and have skills and it's hard to compare people in IT.
But what matters is that the H1B program is designed to give the employers an unfair edge over immigrant employees as well as citizens.
If the H1B program was really just about skills we would simply give the people temporary green cards and make them conditional to paying enough taxes or something like that.
Then the employees would be able to switch jobs easily and would not be forced to stay with an employer they don't
Re: (Score:3)
Cool, maybe they'll make some innovative products that I can buy cheaply!
If you have a job.
So net moral gain then - sounds great. A tech job in India does far more to lift people out of poverty than it does here. Only by simple greed do I want that job here, not any virtue.
I fail to see how it's any kind of moral gain. Yes, it's good that they go up, but it's awful that we go down.
And the 500000 stockholders who benefit from higher retirement income. And the 500000 consumers who benefit from lower prices. If a company can produce a needed product cheaper, it's almost always a good thing net for them to do so.
Strawman argument.
Re:Immigration Is Good (Score:5, Interesting)
Visas allow the workers to work here where they also contribute more to the US economy as well as US society. They might also start companies and create jobs.
I agree with General Secretary.
Anecdotal evidence:
I'm a Honduran who won a college scholarship to study in the US, but forced to return to Latin America immediately after graduation (1998). I now live in Mexico, and work as a consultant. Often I'm hired to do work for US firms, and am paid less than half of what I would be in the US. But since this is Latin America, these wages let me live comfortably in the middle class.
I've since got my master's degree, and dream about starting a company someday. But I hesitate to return to the US. If I did, because of my ethnicity and birth country, many would think I stole their job. But isn't the US a meritocracy? What about the American dream?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
By and large, because they aren't allowed in currently?
I know quite a few British people who have in-demand skills and a positive gross net worth who have been denied work vistas (or immigration vistas, or anything else they've applied for) in the past decade. The US does not favor skilled laborers from other modern countries, it only favors moderately capable laborers from 3rd world countries, refugees of questionable dogmatic affiliation, and people who enter the country illegally. It's the only way to so
Puzzling.. (Score:5, Informative)
I'm a Canadian, and I guess, a reasonably talented EE. One avenue not mentioned is the TN-class visa; same general idea, but yearly renewable. (Canada/Mexico)
The process to actually _immigrate_ to the US is a real pain and very lengthy. So much that the logical extension is that they don't want skilled immigration on a permanent basis - at least from Canada. However, exporting work from the US is made very easy.
What's the problem with opening it up? Why not just find a way to document, all the undocumented? Am I missing something?
H1-B has nothing to do with your jobs (Score:4, Insightful)
For the software industry leaders, H1-Bs are used for bringing in MSc's, Ph.Ds, and other top talent from other countries. Ordinary IT jobs aren't at stake because that type of job is beneath them.
Re:H1-B has nothing to do with your jobs (Score:5, Informative)
I have worked in the software industry since 1984. Not once did I meet an H1-B who was MS, PhD, or other top talent. Every single one of them has been ordinary software engineering jobs. I have witnessed how companies make fake jobs ads that cater to the specific person, and HR admitting they automatically pay H1Bs $10k less because they can...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
For the software industry leaders, H1-Bs are used for bringing in MSc's, Ph.Ds, and other top talent from other countries. Ordinary IT jobs aren't at stake because that type of job is beneath them.
Incorrect. I got into the US on a H1B for web development work and I only have a bachelors. And while my starting wage was nothing special (I was 26 at the time), it grew soon enough to the point where I'm now earning above the market rate for the work I do and I'm a green card holder, eventually I'll be a citizen. My employer and I spent a fortune on lawyer's fees and it was an enormous hassle for him and for me.
This is not about "slavery". This is about finding the right talent for the job. And no, ther
Protectionist propaganda (Score:5, Interesting)
- paid the same amount of taxes as citizens in my company - had the same wages (even higher actually) as citizens - had the same access to healthcare as citizens - created an extra legal cost to my employers for maintaining my immigration status - not worked more (at least hours-wise) than citizens
The BLS (bls.gov) regulary publishes a list of the jobs with the most potential on the market. There is a lack in STEM. It's a fact (unless BLS is conspiring against the people, this is Slashdot after all).
In my field there are roughly 20% of citizens that fill positions, in any given company. Not sure why. Maybe head over to the engineering department of a big university and see who's attending and getting top grades. You have a sh*tton of people from Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Asia, and also now Latin America, working their asses off. Not many Americans... no they're all at the Business School learning 1- blah 2- blah 3- profit. Let's fix that first, then complain.
signed: former H1B, now permanent resident, one day citizen
Oh, and obligatory: "I took yer jerb".
Re:Protectionist propaganda -- not really (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Potential difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Lesson: Don't set up a large potential difference if you don't want to get a big shock arcing through down the road.
H1-B (Score:3)
The problem is that if you don't grant H1-Bs the companies will pretty much move operations offshore if they are large enough to support that sort of operation.
With H1-Bs you at least keep the tax revenues in the US.
The *really* bad aspect of this is that it weakens US educational institutions. With these people coming into the US it discourages US citizens from going after these sorts of technical degrees in the US. That's got all sorts of negative effects.
Perhaps one sort of H1-B visa that would be less damaging overall is the type that is granted to foreign students holding a degree from a US university.
Re: (Score:3)
(disclaimer: I am working in the us on a J1 visa.)
There might be a vicious cycle with visas. But I am really under the impression that most visa are issues because one could not find a local ( == US) worker to fill the position in. As far as I can tell, it is because the education system in the US sucks so much that so visa are issued.
Now I can see your point : if there were less H1B, there would be more incentive to fix the mess. But exactly how many "opportunities" would the US miss if it was not hiring s
Re:H1-B (Score:4, Informative)
That's the official line. In fact, for many temporary visas, that's the only reason the visa will be granted.
But in actuality, it's not the case. The truth is that by increasing supply of qualified workers, companies can keep the price for those workers low. Basic microeconomics at play.
In my experience, the way it generally works is that the largest H1B-using companies actually provide the training necessary to meet their requirements via either related parties (offshore affiliates) or outsourcing firms. Then, because they haven't trained anyone locally in the skillset they need, they get those employees to come here under H1B.
Basically, instead of investing in the training in specific skills in local employees, they do so overseas. Then we watch those skills go back to the employees' home country with them.
I believe we need to increase the standard of living across the globe wherever we can. But I do not believe that companies allowed to operate in a certain country should be allowed to get away with not investing in the workforce of that specific country when they need skills there.
Fighting the last war (Score:3)
The problem is that if you don't grant H1-Bs the companies will pretty much move operations offshore if they are large enough to support that sort of operation.
This
Except the part about being large enough. A company doesn't have to be large to off-shore. It is routine now for startups with fewer than 20 employees to have half of them off shore. Many VC's impose an off-shoring strategy as a pre-requisite for getting funding.
Frankly, complaining about H1B's is fighting the last war. If a company uses H1B's they will hire fewer Americans but they will hire some and even the H1B's contribute to the local economy. If they off-shore, no Americans will be hired an
H1-B fake jobs: an annoyance for job seekers too (Score:5, Interesting)
H1B's are not only artificially driving down wages and generally screwing over American programmers, engineers, etc., but they are also a blight on the job market for another reason: fake jobs.
There are a LOT of fake job ads are out there right now that employers are only posting so they can run crying to Congress and the Labor Dept. later, claiming that they can't get enough "qualified applicants" (and to beg for more H1B visas). You know, that ad that asks for a programmer with 20+ years of Java programming experience, or with qualifications so specific that it HAS to be tailored to a specific H1B candidate, or that asks for an experienced programmer with a salary range of $30,000-$35,000, or that never seems to get filled no matter how many qualified people apply? These are the jobs that colleges cite when they try to sucker in new programming and CS students, that applicants waste valuable time and effort on, and that create an artificially rosy appearance of the technical job market. They make it look like there are way more jobs than workers out there (that's what they're designed to do), when in reality the REAL job market is a lot more dismal, especially for newbies. They're a blight for honest job seekers, and a tool for the dishonest to use to con Congress, the Labor Dept., and desperate potential students.
counter-intutive for congress oldsters. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's is a real uphill battle for congresscritters, especially the long time reps, to understand this.
Post WWII until maybe mid-80s I think it might have been a valid belief that doing whatever helps the biggest corporations will automagicly help the economy. I think high speed communications invalidates this idea completely.
In other words, it used to be that if a company grew that it would force them to help the individuals that needs jobs. If that ever was the case it isn't so now. So pouring money and tax breaks into a big company does nothing but enrich the few people at the top of that chain because they can just as easily hire someone offshore.
I don't think people in Congress understand this. And it extends to H1Bs, because if they get the "smart" immigrants then it means more domestic jobs under similar logic. I think many reps in Congress probably want to help their local constituents but haven't been able to break out of this logic. Look at how dumb our legislation with tech is... it falls in the same category of ignorance.
Again, I think there are some that just don't care if they are helping normal joes or not. Personally I thin Romney falls into that camp.
Well you forgot the other half of the equation no? (Score:3)
What about higher COSTS for business which get passed on to ALL consumers? And don't cry me a river about corporate profits as I suggest you go look to see what is in your 401k or other retirement plan - public or private. The sad reality is that the US can no longer command the wages it once could, whether thats in tech or in digging ditches.
Re: (Score:3)
Boo fucking hoo about costs. You and I know that they do not reduce prices when costs go down, unless they absolutely have to.
Skepticism of immigration and diversity (Score:5, Interesting)
I know this is an unpopular topic, but I see that throughout history that diversity -- of any form: religious, ethnic, cultural, racial -- has failed wherever it has been tried because it offers people a choice between having no culture or being ostracized for maintaining a cultural identity.
Immigration seems to be popular with the construction industry, cheap labor employers, and serf-masters like the big Silicon Valley companies. Cheap lawn mowing and cheap software production are high on their agendas. However, it's not really working in that this country continues to have clashes between value systems, including those rooted in culture, and increasingly, between our lack of values and anyone who does have cultural values.
Can anyone name a time and place in which diversity has thrived? It seems like all of our accounts come from a couple centuries later when the experiment has failed, and left behind a culturally-confused third world nation.
Perhaps instead of just walking lock-step with the rest of the herd, we should think independently about this issue, and unlike the rest of our society, question whether it's a good thing at all.
Re:Skepticism of immigration and diversity (Score:4, Insightful)
I see that throughout history that diversity -- of any form: religious, ethnic, cultural, racial -- has failed wherever it has been tried
When, and where throughout history? I can site at least 1 case where the lack of diversity was the cause the the collapse of a nations economy. France under Lois XIV under their "everyone must be Catholic" logic ended up convincing a large portion of the educated to leave the country. That lack of diversity caused a brain drain that helped to cause the financial collapse of the entire country.
The very nature of Diversity means that it will not last for long unless you keep importing it. Best example of that is China. You can go ahead and conquer it, but in a few generations your decedents will be Chinese.
Uniformity has advantages in getting everyone on board and headed the same direction, but it also has weaknesses and doesn't adapt to new things quickly. Diversity is a very good environment for creativity, but also has the drawback of generating strife between different groups. Nether solution is ideal, but that's life.
San Jose (Score:3)
Seeking a Better Life (Score:3, Funny)
There is a shortage (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There is a shortage (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe there a shortage of developers
You only believe there's a shortage of developers because you aren't willing to pay enough to attract them to your company.
H1B keeps the job in USA (Score:4, Interesting)
Before the global infrastructure built up, before so much of investments were made by big companies in India, before many mid level execs have hitched their wagon to the out sourcing horse (which was stolen from the barn mentioned earlier), it might have been possible to reduce H1B and kept the job in USA.
But right now, if you reduce H1B, it is going to move the whole damned job to India. At least they (or us, because I am an ex H1B) work in USA, pay taxes in USA and spend most of their money in USA and save and invest in USA. The outsourced job lives, spends, invests and pays taxes in India.
I ran the rat race in India, and won it. And the prize was US Citizenship. I don't want my daughter fighting for jobs with the next generation of me who wins the rat race in India. But that makes me sound like the guy who dynamites the bridge after crossing it himself. This is quite complicated.
As Obama said in the third debate, "Some jobs are not coming back. They are low wage low skill jobs. I want high wage high skill jobs here", it would be great if we could make sure the jobs that were lost are all low wage low skill jobs and keep the high wage jobs here. Even if that means my daughter has to fight with the next generation rat-race winner from India.
a Fix for this "Issue" (Score:3)
Increase the amount of Payroll taxes charged to non-citizens (and include the Employer Portion with this) of course you will need to ramp up the numbers over say 5 years but your EndGame is
15% of workforce Non-Citizens= 130% of Base Values
17% = 140%
19% =150%
21% = 175%
22+= 180% + 2% for every percent above 22
this will have 2 benefits
1 this will raise Massive Amounts of Money
2 Companies will get very creative in employing LOCAL folks
In other words... (Score:3)
...wages are artificially high in the United States and only maintainable at that level when the government limits foreign competition.
The H-1B program should be abolished---and along with it, the government's power to prevent anyone, citizen or foreigner alike, from working here if they choose.
Nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would US not take as many as they can? (Score:3, Informative)
As a long time H1B holder I am a bit offended by the article and there are quite a lot of inaccuracies.
* The people that I know who have H1B visas both at my company and others are definitely not scraping the bottom of the barrel wage wise.
* To get an H1B visa you generally have to find a company in the US that is willing to go through the hassle of getting you a visa (And the time this takes before you can actually come over and start working).
* H1B is a "dual intent" visa, meaning you are legally allowed to aspire for permanent residence while you are here. It takes forever though and during this time you have to stay at your company (It usually takes at least 8 years). While you are applying for a green card you can extend your H1B indefinitely (I'm just about to extend my own for 3 years and I have already been here for 9).
* O might not be attainable even if you have a exceptional talent. To get one for working in IT you are pretty much required to have a masters degree. I would contend that exceptional talent in the IT field have fairly little to do with official schooling.
* Some of the H1B visas that are "fraudulent" are also people who have gotten promoted while here and the company didn't refile the proper paperwork indicate their new job titles. This usually means that they have a more qualified job and are paid a higher salary. I am not saying actual fraud doesn't happen, just that I doubt it is as prevalent as the statistics might show.
And finally, on a macro economical note, why would you not take as many people as you could that are skilled earn a good wage, can't be unemployed and generally use social resources (If I loose my job I have 30 days to get out).
H1-B program lowers wages (Score:4, Interesting)
I used to work as an H1-B worker. I 100% agree that the work visa program lowers wages and steals jobs from Americans.
From my personal experience I know, that if I was not dependent on my employer I would have asked for higher than the market pay rate, rather than take lower than the market rate. However, since US government "helped", none of the companies I worked for had to offer proper wages to job applicants. I have seen many tailored job postings that were not really looking for applicants, but were posted only to fulfill requirements set forth by the government. Prevailing wage analysis and numbers that come out from that are mostly irrelevant and do not have to be lower than the wage being paid to the H1-B worker. My approved green card application had much higher wage than I was/am getting.
The program does not protect American workers at all. I used to hate H1-B due to somewhat slave labor legal conditions associated with it, but now that I am almost a citizen, I hate it because in its current state it does not benefit Americans and actually harms them.
Another things worth mentioning, although many people apply for green card after being on H1-B, the work visa is not considered to be a proper path to citizenship by US government. Partially due to this, none of the experience gained while working on H1-B can be used in green card application to prove that person is an asset to the company or to the country.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Insightful)
Willingness to accept substandard wages?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Is this really true? I have yet to find a single example of someone on an H1-B and is being paid below the average. I myself am paid at par with my American colleagues. One of my friends does contracting work and is paid roughly 50% more than me.
Or are you getting confused with outsourcing?
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Insightful)
I myself am paid at par with my American colleagues.
...and that's the problem. If $MEGACORP can get employees for a lower price by way of H1-B, then the local people trying to get a job there are forced to accept the same lower wage, or they don't get the job.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Otherwise known as a fair market wage?
Whoever's writing as Cringly is just being racist here. There's no moral wrong when a non-American gets an "American job", whether through immigraiton or offshoring. Everyone deserves to compete for any job, without prefernce given by race or place of birth.
Sure, I'd personally like to see all the cool developer jobs reserved for somewhat overweight middle-aged white guys, but that's because I'm a greedy bastard, not because it would be some kind of moral virtue!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Whoever's writing as Cringly is just being racist here.
Not necessarily racist (though that is a possibility), but definitely isolationist.
It is something like a cry of "America for Americans," but without realizing that phrase means shipping all the white people back to Europe.
Re: (Score:3)
You do realize that "Keep America American" has been a Klan motto since the aforementioned 1920s, right?
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Informative)
Otherwise known as a fair market wage?
Whoever's writing as Cringly is just being racist here. There's no moral wrong when a non-American gets an "American job", whether through immigraiton or offshoring. Everyone deserves to compete for any job, without prefernce given by race or place of birth.
Sure, I'd personally like to see all the cool developer jobs reserved for somewhat overweight middle-aged white guys, but that's because I'm a greedy bastard, not because it would be some kind of moral virtue!
The problem is that it puts a net drain on the local market, both in terms of skilled workers and in terms of money. An H1-B takes a low paying job that would traditionally go to an entry-level local worker, works for several years, and returns home with enough money live on comfortably for the rest of his life due to the exchange rate. This means that the local entry-level worker can't find a job and becomes disenfranchised, and a total loss of ~50k * 3 yr = $150k is permanently removed from the local economy. Now maybe this is not ethically wrong, but it is not in the best interests of the local economy or the national economy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Informative)
So, the H1-B worker, by your calculation, lives of donuts he steals in the break room and sleeps on a park bench? While there are probably some H1-B workers who remit a fraction of their income to their home country, most live in the community like every one else, renting a house, buying a car and groceries, and try to get ahead in the new country. As for the "stealing American's jobs", we graduate some 5,000,000 people a year from US colleges. Compare that to the 85,000 total H1B visa given out annually, less than 2% of the total job market entries.
No actually the ones I worked with were living 5-6 people in an apartment supplied by the company that they were contracting for. I'm guessing there is some kind of company store arrangement which paid back the company out of the wages for rent.
They all would carpool together to their work sites.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Informative)
So, the H1-B worker, by your calculation, lives of donuts he steals in the break room and sleeps on a park bench?
*fweeeet!*
Reductio ad absurdum, five-yard penalty!
What he is saying is actually rather common, though definitely not to the 'sleeps on a park bench' level.
It is very common for immigrants (legal or illegal) to spend only on what is necessary, and send every spare penny back home to family. After a few years, a sum is saved up which would be considered moderate here (say, saving off $50-$75k in aggregate from a middle-class job). After a few years, the immigrant returns to his/her country of origin, and either lives off the saved money for life, or uses it to start a business. The cost-of-living differential is high enough to return home a fairly prosperous person, and none of that money does anything in the local economy.
Renting a house? No problem - In an H1-B holder's shoes, I can rent a cheap 2-bd apartment with four of my friends, bunk two to a room, and pay a mere $200/month for that. Buy a car? No problem - a cheap-but running POS off of Craigslist cost what, $1000 at the most? Groceries? A minimal expense if you know where to shop, and don't get too picky on what you're eating. Given those low expenses, in three years as a DBA @ a (way low for the job!) wage of $80k here in the Pacific Northwest, I could eke out a semi-comfy cheap-assed living, and send home at least $100k to use for when I get back to my family. After all, it's no problem to live like a pauper in some strange land, especially when I know that in just a couple of years I will live like a deity in my own home neighborhood.
Re: (Score:3)
I've seen the "live on the cheap" version before, typically with Indian and Chinese graduate studen
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Insightful)
That five million are not programmers and engineers. The H1Bs are. They are imported precisely to counter employment of local graduates and to drive down wages. This is not a supposition. There is more than enough corporate money to pay increasing salaries to college graduates - but they want to keep that money, which they pay to themselves, of course. So they flood the tech market. It's not a huge overall effect, but it is targeted and successful in reducing American salaries. And in case no one notices it, we live in our own country. We'd like to see our wages increase proportionally to the increasing megawealth of our employers' bosses.
This program was created in 1990, not 1790. It exists only to drive down wages. It exists because the employers are lying about the purpose of the program. There is no worker shortage. There is a shortage of workers who will work for cheap so that the corps can increase profits 20% a quarter.
That money that is not being paid to us is not being used by us to buy a house, an education, buy goods, or to raise our children. That money is being diverted from us to make rich people far richer. It is helping to inhibit the wage growth of the few occupations left to the American middle class that could conceivably use real, actual free market forces to their advantage. It is shutting the free market down, not advancing it.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The supply is the world supply. H1B visas don't change the supply, they just move some of it to a more expensive place. If there are too many programmers (there aren't yet), the job should pay so little that society as a whole generates fewer of them. Work is only valuable because someone needs that work, not because it's what you'd like to do.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Insightful)
Otherwise known as a fair market wage?
I would agree with you except for one big, fat caveat:
With H1-Bs, business and government are colluding to depress wages (albeit with government as a semi-unwitting partner in this affair).
If someone shows up from overseas and applies for the position at a lower wage, then it would be perfectly fair. Because of this, race doesn't mean a damned thing in the equation, at all.
But, when government steps in, things definitely get hinkey. Because companies can now knock down wages across the board for a given position, they can use the overall savings to actively seek and bring in H1-B workers, and still come out ahead.
In other words? Don't think micro-scale, think macro-scale.
Re: (Score:3)
One of the guys I worked with was from Pakistan. When I talked to him, he had 2 physics Masters degrees and could blow me out of the water with my High School level physics knowledge. He was going to apply to some research facilities for a job because at the time, he thought $25k was an awesome wage in the Chicago area. He didn't find out it was pretty crappy until he actually got to the point of looking for an apartment and having to actually live on that. He found out later that the company was offeri
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently economics is not your strong suit, friend. America through the 70s and 80s protected its middle class by managing a complex structure of trade barriers intended to keep American wages high and prevent the flood of dollars into the world economy diluting American wealth. At the same time American corporations began to globalize and build strong networks with the other global enterprises, and opening American borders to trade was great for them but sadly destructive to the American middle class as it began to have to compete for jobs with people who could afford to work for pennies an hour for labor jobs and just a few dollars an hour for technical jobs. These people lived in economies where the cost of living was a tenth of what it was in America and so American Nationals had no sane way of competing. So you want to get something clear off the bat, fair market wage is a fantasy. Until you homogenize the economies of the world so everyone has the same cost of living, same tax burden, same access to educational resources, medicine, and civil liberties, there can be no such thing as a fair market because your trading apples and oranges.
America has been bled dry so that the dollar and the rupee are quick approaching the same value. The American people will soon be able to compete with laborers in the global market because their wages will be in fact the same. This is not a good thing for Americans. We have been reduced to a third world nation and our wealth has been squandered on multinational corporations who no longer owe American any allegiance. I've personally known hundreds of engineers who don't engineer anymore, because after the Dotcom crash, their jobs went away and they never came back. I lost my retirement in two massive stock crashes. I work for 60% of what I made in 2001, and if I account for the real value of the dollar that's probably closer to 45% (and don't let them lie to you about inflation, the dollar is a shadow of its pre 2000 value.)
I'm not big on waving flags, but let me ask you a few questions. Do you believe that the vast majority of dollars foreign workers are paid remains in the American economic system, or does a lot of it go back to the home country to support family there, and what is the impact of dollars flying out of out economy? Do you think that foreign workers have any loyalty to America, or do your think they take what they learn back home to start businesses that compete with us? I could actually go on quite a while, but hope I'm painting a picture here for you. The wealth of all kinds leaves out country and makes us all poorer. This is the place your children will inherit. What will be left of it when you've taken your share?
All I need to say, is what is the state of the middle class in this country, and what is the state of technology workers in the U.S. today, and my first question is how many of the AMERICAN workers were American in 1995 and how many are today.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:4)
I'll grant you that there are obvious advantage to the rest of the world for an open America, the problem you miss is that now all those nations hold a tremendous amount of American debt. What happens when the American economy implodes? Just as there is goodness for everyone to take now, there will be unhappiness galore for everyone to take a nice fat slice of. American are suffering terribly. Some say in a year or five everything will be better, how long can you hold your breath?
Our government threw a trillion dollars at trying to bail out the deep water American middle class is in, and the banks took that earmarked money, gave it to one another as bonuses and hid it in foreign banks. If you think the very same bankers will treat anyone else on the planet with any more grace I think you don't know bankers. We are all playing at a crooked poker table, and the dealing is dirty. All of this is an exercise in manipulation and misdirection. The problem is that we of the American middle class, and all the good people of the world are focusing on the wrong hand. Our masters are greedy and without compassion. We need to find our own way, and we best get about it soon while there are ways still left to us.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's an unfair market. They are bringing in workers from across the world, from different markets and economies, to drive down wages. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Market. They have accomplished this, as Cringley illustrates, by lying and cheating. If they were not permitted to lie to us and to cheat us, our wages would be much higher, their profits would be a tiny bit lower, and the low wage workers would be working in their own countries where they *would* be paid a fair market wage, that is, a wage proportionate to the local standards. This isn't just about fairness, or about the simple purpose of this duplicity is to make our lords so much more rich - it's about national security, *real* national security, not the militaristic crap about being prepared for China to bomb us. To have a United States with citizens that can advance their careers, earn more money, buy homes and educate children, we cannot compete with workers from countries made impoverished by too many babies too quickly added to the local economies. This isn't a game - this is killing our middle class. This is converting the US into a country of bosses and slobs, with the money more and more going to the bosses. Numbers bear this out. It's ain't the debt that's killing us, it's the wealth redistribution to the top tier.
This is about *your* survival. The wage pressure is always downwards, with pauses to get used to the new lower levels.
You may have yours, but, so what? A good chunk of us will not have ours, and more importantly, the coming generations will get even less. Even Jerry Pournelle, free market idealist extraordinaire, said himself a few days ago on TWIT that to succeed in the future, people will have to make themselves valuable to those with the money. In other words, make yourself useful to the rich people. Even he's seen that the middle class is rapidly converting into a servant class for the wealthy.
Curtail the H1Bs. Let the home countries take care of their own workers by building their own industries. That's how markets work. O class workers can come here as much as they like, because the are exceptional, and by that, it is meant *few*.
Lying to us about a worker "shortage" when there simply isn't one? This isn't about "business", this is about government run by businesses for businesses' purposes, not for the benefit of the actual citizens. Government, under orders from businesses, opened up the H1B program quotas. That is not a free market move, that is a straight-out government-mandated interference in our local markets so that businesses can gain profit and leverage over US citizens. Wages stagnate and fall, H1Bs work without complaint else they be deported. Free market for whom?
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:4, Informative)
When I was a H1B, I was the highest paid member of the team, at a Fortune 100 company.
Now that I'm not a H1B, I'm still the highest member paid.
This is a net benefit to me, and to the country, IMO.
[obviously, I'm the highest paid because I'm damned good, not because they like to pay me more than anyone else for no reason]
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/16/us/the-1992-campaign-transcript-of-2d-tv-debate-between-bush-clinton-and-perot.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm [nytimes.com]
"To those of you in the audience who are business people, pretty simple: If you're paying $12, $13, $14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor, hire young -- let's assume you've been in business for a long time and you've got a mature work force -- pay a dollar an hour for your labor, have no health care -- that's the most expensive single element in making a car -- have no environmental controls, no pollution controls and no retirement, and you don't care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south.
"So we -- if the people send me to Washington the first thing I'll do is study that 2,000-page agreement and make sure it's a two-way street. One last part here -- I decided i was dumb and didn't understand it so I called the Who's Who of the folks who've been around it and I said, "Why won't everybody go South?" They say, "It'd be disruptive." I said, "For how long?" I finally got them up from 12 to 15 years. And I said, "well, how does it stop being disruptive?" And that is when their jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then it's leveled again. But in the meantime, you've wrecked the country with these kinds of deals. We've got to cut it out."
So yeah, it's great for people who come from other countries to work, but it came at the expense of the American people who used to be able to afford vacations, health care, and college but now no longer can.
Re: (Score:3)
The wages dropping has nothing to do with people coming to America to work, and everything with moving jobs out of America to countries with much cheaper labor.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:4, Interesting)
It also depends on the accounting, Most places I've worked, the full-time worker's salary comes out of operational expenses, while contract resources come out of capital expenses, usually tied to a project of some sort that's been through a business case to get capital funding.
Your $40k wages have lots of hidden company costs as well, up to 35% of gross salary.
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Yes, since once he's done working he can move back to China and retire on the money he's made. A US worker could live for a few months on those same savings.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Interesting)
I suggest you read this [edweek.org] before you marvel at the opportunities Americans have for education.
You know why H1Bs threaten American jobs? Because they mainly come from countries where education is better and free, so they come better educated and debt-free. Debt-free people accept lower wages and employers prefer people with a better education.
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Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:5, Insightful)
Generally in nations such as China and India, a good portion of that wealth is illegitimate. That is to say, much of it was either obtained via politics or corruption (paid for by the tax payer of course) vs say...an honest salary based on a free market competitive wage.
How do you think most wealthy families in the West got started back in the day?
Vast majority of wealth in the world is taken away from other people (sometimes illegally, and sometimes simply by writing laws in your favor). It's just that this has happened ages ago in Europe, and is only happening now in developing countries.
Re:If Americans cannot compete with non Americans. (Score:4, Funny)
If this is true why do we have a major influx of foreign students studying in US universities?
They weren't smart enough for IIT so they had to settle for MIT.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Why are they unable to compete other that sheer incompetence and laziness?
what you say if great if american workers are welcomed around the world with open arms, but the truth is that other countries are much more protectionist than the US when it comes to foreign workers.
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"Americans have MORE opportunities than non Americans for education if they are wealthy"
I finished your sentence for you.
I find it funny that some foreigners think that the USA is the land of plenty for education... Try a $60,000 debt hanging around you neck to go with that education and not being able to find a job that pays more than $18.00 an hour because the rich assholes that get $1500 an hour think that your skillset is not worth more than that.
In america it's not what you know but who you know that
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, taking the cream of the crop of foreigners who you don't have to pay for their education or upbringing and having them work in tech or science fields is terrible economics. A mediocre American who the government has to subsidize $200k for education is such a better investment.
By the way, how many H-1Bs were issued last year? 65,000. Out of a labor force of 150 million.
This is just xenophobia.
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Informative)
Read the article. there are about 700k H1-Bs in the US today
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:4, Informative)
Just thought I'd add that TFA also indicates that H1-Bs are specifically for technical positions, the domestic labor force of which is 2.5 million, not 150 million.
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Informative)
Cumulative effect over 20 years : You can be in H1-B status for 6 + 3 years. The 700K visa holders show this well, being close to 85K * 9 years.
And of course you have not seen the visa holders return home, most of these people get a green card and stay in the US, eventually becoming US citizens.
As AC pointed out above : US gets the best minds from abroad, without paying for their education. If this is not good for the US then I don't see what is...
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem is that we also get these visa holders taking the place of citizens, so saddling us with educated candidates that can't pay for that education.
But no matter, the schools were paid. The government fronted them the money, the loans go unpaid because the borrowers cant afford their education, and taxpayers pay for it all.
Sound familiar? It SHOULD.
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Funny)
65,000 is just the tip of the iceberg! (Score:5, Interesting)
Both political parties dutifully ignore the issue, as they have been paid to do.
They are "Guests" who never go home, essentially.
Look up the writing of Kim Berry, John Miano, and Norm Matloff for more.
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Surely you don't need to plain make stuff up if you have a valid argument?
160,794 H1-Bs were issued last year (potentially more if there were any that were succesfully appealed after September)., so you are only off by about 250%.
http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY2011NIVWorkloadbyVisaCategory.pdf [state.gov] is my reference for the count, straight from the department of state. Where is your number from? Did you just assume that a limit with a bunch of exemptions to it will only reach the on-exemption limit? Or did you
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, so that's cool and all. Did you bother thinking?
H1B workers only come into "in-demand" careers in highly competitive fields where large amounts of sensitive data is concerned. You're ignoring crucial things like:
* This diminishes domestic demand for employees, resulting in both fewer people entering the fields and lower wages
* These people are taking jobs in industries with a fraction of that 150 million number. (How big is the IT industry? The biotech industry? Etc.)
* On the lower side of the pay scale, there are illegals taking jobs and driving down the price for cheap labor as well.
We're already at the point in the US where people well into their 20s can look forward to "dorming" well into their 30s with housemates and roommates, and where many are still living at home because of higher costs and minimal opportunity. This is partially their fault (for picking something like an English major in college), but not everyone can be an engineer. God knows even those who are (regardless of race or culture) are rarely up to snuff.
My personal experience with Indian H1B workers is that there are a lot of them. They're upwards of 10%-30% of the IT workers I've seen. Some are very good, exceptional even. Many, if not most, are no better than and not as good as "common" DeVry types. Most of them lack crucial problem solving skills which are a "given" in Western cultures. Now, imagine for a second if there were 10% more jobs in IT oriented fields than there are now, and had been since H1B workers became common place. Would wages be lower? No, they'd probably be higher than they are now by a fair margin, making comparable amounts to other "skilled professional" careers with similar experience - as opposed to markedly less than eg. civil engineers or the like. A crucial point to consider is that there is a very large number of skilled, experienced, and unemployed people in the US right now who are looking for work (or in some cases, have stopped trying) who are "unemployable" because they're too old, too experienced, or two "American" (what with being insistent about only working 40-45 hours a week, or the like).
I wonder if either of the Presidential candidates would dare to say that on their first day of office, they would create 65,000 high-paying, skilled domestic employment opportunities. It could be done fairly trivially, and there are certainly close to that number of Americans looking for work in in-demand fields. So why not hire a 22 year old college grad from the US than a 21 year old Indian with questionable education or experience?
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:4, Insightful)
The question makes inaccurate assumptions. You are assuming that employers value education and experience over how little they can pay their employees. That, and both potential hires are pretty much blank slates in terms of whether they can actually effectively use the education/experience they have gained.
I mean think about it: Your college grad more that likely has very little to no experience, and you can't be sure if the foreign worker actually has the experience he/she is claiming. So, the experience/education factor is basically a wash.
In the end, what is an employer at a for-profit private business going to do: Pay the US college grad $X or the H1-B worker $X * .75? I'll give you a hint: They'll hire the H1-B every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Plus, the domestic worker is going to want silly things like "health insurance" and "a 401k" and "dignity in employment", while the H1-B worker not only will accept work without benefits, they are far more likely to eat the shit that the employer feeds them in the form of unpaid overtime and slave-labor working conditions. I mean, what are they going to do, complain? Complainers get fired no matter their nationality or status, but the difference is that the H1-B faces deportation if he/she gets fired, so he/she is much less likely to do anything if he/she is poorly treated.
Employers like spineless worker bees that they can pay peanuts. Period.
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:4, Insightful)
H-1Bs are used when there is pressure on employers to pay higher wages because a certain skill is in high demand
In other words, capitalists don't like it when the negative part of capitalism applies to them.
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Interesting)
An unemployed citizen isn't going to cost the government nearly as much as raising and educating a citizen to the level to work in a tech or science field. And this foreigner will almost certainly become a citizen. In effect, an H-1B allows the US to steal the valuable labor and contributions to society from another country.
From my experience, the people who oppose H-1Bs tend to be very xenophobic. Have a conversation with them and soon it will digress to topics like self-deportation or worse.
I'm about as left as it gets, but I oppose the H1B status on the fact that it puts a large portion of workers at a major negotiation disadvantage. The problem isn't that there are foreigners taking these jobs, its that the foreigners are not able to negotiate on a level playing field, which drives down the wages for everyone. A similar and far more dramatic shift has happened in blue collar jobs involving illegal immigrants. The reason you don't see Americans picking fruit in California isn't because they don't want to do it, it's because the farmer can pay the illegal immigrants half the minimum wage, is not liable if that worker is injured on the job, and can arbitrarily change the deal at any point with no legal repercussions. Slave labor is bad for us as a nation, whether it be white collar or blue collar.
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm about as left as it gets, but I oppose the H1B status on the fact that it puts a large portion of workers at a major negotiation disadvantage. The problem isn't that there are foreigners taking these jobs, its that the foreigners are not able to negotiate on a level playing field, which drives down the wages for everyone.
That's the first intelligent thing I have read in this thread. The H1B program has two flaws: first, it is too expensive, slow, and restrictive for getting a Visa. At our startup, If we find someone really good we want to hire from europe (which is not so seldom, since we know a lot of people there) we have to wait for next year's quota, so (s)he can't get started until october next year. That can be over a year of waiting time! We're talking people we know, with a PhD and a strong track record.
Second, as the parent poster mentioned, it puts employees at a negotiation disadvantage because they cannot be unemployed while on the H1B. Also, if they are in the middle of a green card application and they change employers, they have to start from scratch. Solution would be to de-couple immigration H1B status and green card applications from employers. E.g., if an H1B holder could be unemployed for up to 12 months before he loses his visa, his negotiating position would be about as strong as a citizens', so he could ask for a fairer wage.
And before anyone starts the xenophobic rant that we should be hiring americans, nobody in the team that started this company was born in america. Now we are bringing money and jobs here. If the rules had been only a little bit more restrictive, this company likely wouldn't exist.
Whichever country can attract the best qualified people will have the strongest economy... this is what the US has excelled at so far. Now already the US doesn't allow people who study here and get degrees from top universities to transition to a job and eventually a green card. That is one of the dumbest economic policies currently in effect in this country.
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Here here! Well said. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, how do you gain skill/experience if you can't even catch a break in your own country because you have to compete with the rest of the world? What if you were born poor?
I was born poor. My first programming job paid less than we now pay most freshers in India, and I was living in a major US city! Now I make a ton of money. Your first job will totally suck - get used to the idea.
guess the people who can't make it in your society should just starve to death in a gutter someplace. Ayn Rand would approve.
False dilemma. Your choices are not "do this one thing I want to do" and "starve". There are always jobs with an actual labor shortage, and society would benefit if people did those jobs instead of what they do now.
Programming pays more than the median income in pretty much every nation - as you would expect for a job that's hard to train for, and hard to do. But your first job in the field is for your training, not your enrichment.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
True. But that doesn't mean we can't to encourage employers to be willing to pay a living wage.
We can do this lots of ways, such as limiting their ability to import cheap workers, or by instituting fines for them paying too little (to expand upon this, I think we need to rais ethe minimum wage a la Australia to an actual liveable wage). I don't see a problem with 'nudging' employers to be willing to pay a living wage. You
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Wow, a sane response! Our values clearly differ so much I'm not sure what to say here, but at least you're making some kind of sense!
As workes in the industry we encourage employer to pay more by doing something else if they don't. That's a lot of power, right there. But if in fact we're willing to work for less, for one reason or another, then that's fine too.
We can do this lots of ways, such as limiting their ability to import cheap workers
But this is just disappointing. That "cheap import worker" has every bit the same right to the job that you do. There's no moral reason to deny
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Nope. If you're going to offer a job, it damn well better be at a living wage. If you can't afford that, then tough shit, you make do without the labor, and go out of business.
Re:Global market for labor needed (Score:5, Interesting)
Thank you, cyberspittle, for volunteering to have your salary equaled out with the world average in your field. Since I presume you're in the first world, this will mean about an 80% pay cut for you. Please report to your employer Monday and inform them of your noble sacrifice. And God Bless You, cyberspittle!
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Because you want to keep a standard of living higher than somewhere else.
People aren't objects. There are more considerations there. I've seen the "compete" meme here on Slashdot for years, but it's meaningless. The only way to compete with slaves is to become one.
You might be absolutely correct to say that the marketplace would iron out the difference, but that isn't ethical in the same way that using experimental drugs aren't ethical. You would be ruining the lives of a certain number of people and we
Re:THEY (Score:5, Insightful)
Pure profiteering, screw the locals!
I suppose you're a Native American/Amerindian/whatever they are called today. If not, please excuse me while I'm savoring the irony of former immigrants/former immigrants' kids despising the new immigrants.
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Re:THEY (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh, it's not ironic.
My immigrant ancestors assimilated into the culture. Yes, they brought their own culture, but by and large (and in no small part, under the threat of force by the government), they adopted the rules and standards of their new homeland. See: Irishmen becoming educated, Italians starting legitimate businesses, Germans ceasing to be proud Germans (all of which added a very crucial part to the cultural ethics and fabric of the nation).
Travel through San Francisco some time, or any other current immigrant ghetto (there are a lot of them now), and tell me how well you think those people have assimilated into the culture of the US. Sorry, they really haven't.
Re:Most become US citizens though (Score:4, Interesting)
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Unions are bad
Why is is ok for the company to band together to increase their power, but when the workers try to do the same thing so they can be treated fairly, it's considered bad?