Become a fan of Slashdot on Facebook

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
United States China The Military

Chinese Hackers Steal Top US Weapons Designs 395

n1ywb writes "Chinese hackers have gained access to the designs of many of the nation's most sensitive advanced weapons systems, according to a report prepared for the Defense Department and government and defense industry officials,The Washington Post reported Tuesday. The compromised weapons designs include, among others, the advanced Patriot missile system, the Navy's Aegis ballistic missile defense systems, the F/A-18 fighter jet, the V-22 Osprey, the Black Hawk helicopter and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter." Also (with some more details and news-report round-up) at SlashBI.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Chinese Hackers Steal Top US Weapons Designs

Comments Filter:
  • by Gutboy ( 587531 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:31AM (#43839669)
    Why is information like this on computers that are connected to the internet?
    • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:33AM (#43839693) Homepage Journal

      Why is information like this on computers that are connected to the internet?

      So that it can be leaked, justifying the costly production of a whole new generation of warmachines.

      • by fuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:55AM (#43839925) Journal

        Why is information like this on computers that are connected to the internet?

        So that it can be leaked, justifying the costly production of a whole new generation of warmachines.

        Even better, now we don't have to violate export restrictions in order to request cut-rate second source versions of annoyingly expensive gear! Never mind the communists, feel the everyday low prices!

      • by cold fjord ( 826450 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:09AM (#43840093)

        Why is information like this on computers that are connected to the internet?

        So that it can be leaked, justifying the costly production of a whole new generation of warmachines.

        Because it isn't like China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, or various other countries would want to upgrade their military independently of the US, for their own purposes. None of their weapons designers ever had an original idea, or were the first ones to make a concept actually work in a weapon. And having US weapons data means their could either use the data to incorporate the technology into their own weapons, or use it to defeat American weapons, but they'll never do either because apparently they are lazy, or stupid, or something. None of their weapons are dangerous to US weapons systems, at all.

        • Because it isn't like China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, or various other countries would want to upgrade their military independently of the US, for their own purposes. None of their weapons designers ever had an original idea, or were the first ones to make a concept actually work in a weapon.

          That's utterly irrelevant, unless you believe that the same things are true of the US. You're the one who is making a ridiculous assumption about the Chinese (etc.) military and defense contractors, specifically that they suffer from NIH. I doubt they're that stupid. The US wasn't when after VE day it grabbed as many German rocket scientists as it could. You know, the folks who, in addition to their direct or indirect contributions to US military capability, were responsible for the first US satellite getti

      • by EvilSS ( 557649 )
        Why are we dragging Iron Man into this?
      • *ding!* Thanks (parent also) for saving me the trouble of posting this. Give these persons cigars.

    • by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:36AM (#43839719) Homepage

      Was thinking the same thing. Used to be you kept your secure stuff on a network with an air-gap between it and the rest of the world.

      Given how many stories we've been seeing about these hacking attempts, to have those machines accessible from the outside network means people haven't been paying attention.

      Given that you still can't export some software due to encryption, to have the plans for these kinds of things be something hackers can get into is a pretty stunning failure.

      • by MightyYar ( 622222 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:47AM (#43840537)

        Think about all of the people that have access to these drawings in electronic form. You have the designers, the testing folks, the documentation people, the people who approve changes, the entire manufacturing operation, and anyone with authority to oversee the project. If any of those people view the document on a compromised computer or themselves are compromised, the drawing is in the wild.

        And "compromised" does not necessarily mean "internet". And you don't even need a compromise - people make mistakes, systems are imperfect. Someone could toss a server or workstation in the trash, screwing up the wipe. A leased computer could go back without getting cleaned up. They could even accidentally wire up the "secure" computer to the LAN/WAN, wireless could accidentally be left on, USB ports left active, bluetooth, etc.

        Spying has been going on for a long, long time and is a very difficult problem to solve. Hell, even a compromised cleaning crew could snatch stuff.

      • Indeed. It's kind of odd, when you think about it. It's almost like the Pentagon has purposefully left the barn door open...

        But that's silly talk. It's not like our country would ever neglect to erect defenses when needed. It's not like there is a group of politicians looking for this generation's 'Pearl Harbor,' nor have they been recorded as saying this is their objective.

        I believe I speak for my generation when I say that if they play the same games with this generation that they did the previous, they h

        • by gtall ( 79522 )

          Yes, but if you read the article, it isn't the Pentagon that's the problem. The problem is the defense contractors, those paradigms of free enterprise the conservative republicans are always honking on about. It seems they've been caught with their pants down.

          Now, one might argue they just managed to cost the American taxpayers billions. Do we see the conservative republicans complaining about it. Nope.

          Just to be fair, the liberal democrats wouldn't recognize a defense industry secret if it danced naked in

    • by O('_')O_Bush ( 1162487 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:44AM (#43839797)
      It wasn't otherwise the whole internet would have become classified. The Chinese stole it off one of the classified networks (like SIPRNet), which the DoD has known to be compromised for quite some time. Because of this, really sensitive things aren't kept on it, only mildly sensitive things. If the article implies more, it is sensationalism.
      • The Chinese stole it off one of the classified networks (like SIPRNet), which the DoD has known to be compromised for quite some time.

        You got a citation for that? Seems to me that if true, that information itself would be classified.

    • by Andy Dodd ( 701 ) <atd7@corn[ ].edu ['ell' in gap]> on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:10AM (#43840103) Homepage

      The question is - was the information really that sensitive, or was it the stuff not sensitive enough to be considered classified?

      To get anything more sensitive than FOUO, these "hackers" would have had to physically infiltrate a facility, break NSA Type 1 crypto protocols (in which case the DoD would be shitting their pants), or compromise someone with access to such information.

    • Probably safer than giving me a paper print-out maybe? I need to see how it's made to decide if I should spend the cash on it.
      Oh course now I can just go to the Chinese and get a cheap knock-off.
      Sure it smells a little funny and pulls a little to the left, but hey, my country is on a budget.
    • by EvilSS ( 557649 )
      Because people are stupid. There was a time that foreign governments were trolling p2p networks like bearshare (remember that?) because workers at DoD contractors had a habit of installing file sharing software and sharing out their entire computers. These were often systems that were outside of the DoD's direct control, located a the company site or (worse) laptops located where-ever. It only takes one idiot bridging the gap to make the whole thing useless.
    • People some twit finds it inconvenient to isolate the information.

      What is likely going on is that there is a network at one of the design facilities where the files are exchanged around. That's reasonable. But then what they did was link that network to the internet at large because how else are you going to get email or post on facebook.

      We can all cite a dozen ways to make this a more secure system but they didn't. They wanted to eat their cake and have it too.

  • by WOOFYGOOFY ( 1334993 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:33AM (#43839687)
    heh. heh.
  • allies? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dontfearthereaper ( 2657807 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:33AM (#43839695)
    I hope this opens people's eyes... The Chinese are NOT our allies, and it has been this way for years. Goes to show that the large corporations have more power in this country than the gubbmint and sheeple combined.
    • by Andy Dodd ( 701 )

      Um, who ever said they were? They most definitely are not.

    • Re:allies? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by HeckRuler ( 1369601 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:30AM (#43840335)

      Wut? The Chinese are just trying to make a living. Most are minnow farmers moving to city factory jobs. They're developing a middle class and as whole are going through a lot of changes very quickly. We've been through that rodeo before and we can foresee some of the stresses and strain they're going to go through, but by and far populations like that can

      China, the country, and more specifically the government running the show, is an ally. But they're not an altruistic beacon of good. They're really just in the game to help themselves. Just like all of our other allies. Great Britian, France, Japan, the Saudi family, Iraq, they are our allies, but don't give the term too much weight. Once it suits their intrests to stab us in the back they will. And, sadly, we would do the same. Because this isn't some utopian fantasy land where everyone plays nice. It's a competative game where we can increase our score by working together, so we do, for now. They're allies the same way that Wall Street, Hollywood, Monsanto, Texas, and Silicon Valley are our "allies". Sure, they're ostensibly working on our side, under our rules (mostly), and we get goods and taxes out of them (sometimes). But they're not in it for our own well being. They want cash and power. They have their own agenda and plans. We all do. And those fuckers on Wall Street have taken the whole economy hostage and demanded free money to clean up their shit.

      But yeah, some of our allies would suffer more if we got pissed at them. Those are closer allies than others. China isn't that close of an ally.

    • They are your 'allies' in the sense that if either of you has a bad time (economically speaking), the other will have a bad time, too.

    • I'm hoping the Chinese will actually build the F35 and iron out the numerous kinks. We can then steal back a working design for that aircraft.
    • by prefec2 ( 875483 )

      First, this is not suffice to discard them as allies (even though they are not). The USA was and is spying in Europe for various reasons including industry espionage, but they are still counted as allies by, let say France or Germany. Second, the USA is spying all around the world. Not only to murder suspects and protect its international position as overlords ehm I means, last remaining super-power and worlds policemen, but also for industrial purposes, like stealing technology or stealing trade secrets. T

  • Now the Chinese government too can sink untold amounts of money on ultra-expensive gear? :P
  • by patchouly ( 1755506 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:34AM (#43839707) Homepage
    What moron thought to himself that having sensitive blue prints to highly classified military equipment was best stored on a computer with Internet access?
    • It wasn't otherwise the whole internet would have become classified. The Chinese stole it off one of the classified networks (like SIPRNet), which the DoD has known to be compromised for quite some time. Because of this, really sensitive things aren't kept on it.
      • These plans are littered all over the world. Every supplier of even a single part has lots of specifications and details of parts they have to interact with on their systems. If you hack just a few of those, you essentially get all the plans you need to build your own, or to find the weak spots in the design and adapt your own weapons on that. DOD may not have these plans on computers that are connected to the internet, but most suppliers do. It's a public secret these are the companies that get hacked and
    • Who says they were on the internet? Maybe someone left their laptop at their local Lucky Dragon restaurant.
    • What moron thought to himself that having sensitive blue prints to highly classified military equipment was best stored on a computer with Internet access?

      Someone who previously sold the same data to the Chinese and now cannot be traced as the only source of the leak.

    • We can only assume they wanted it stolen. Either that, or the Pentagon has had a serious markdown in quality recently.

      If it's connected to a network, people will find a way to tap into it. They will then spend all their time trying to find the usernames / password for various accounts, because chances are, auditing is not turned on for those accounts, and no one ever checks the logs.

  • Well now that the secret's out, maybe Congress will cancel these programs.
    Maybe not.
    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      If any plans being leaked were the fault of a defense contractor, they should get slammed financially by the Pentagon since they would have cost the American taxpayers billions.

  • So how was the Washington Post able to get a copy of the Confidential report from the Defense Science Board? Probably leaked by a Chinese hacker ...
    • So how was the Washington Post able to get a copy of the Confidential report from the Defense Science Board?

      . . . the Justice Department will obtain all the phone records and emails from Washington Post employees to find out . . .

  • by seven of five ( 578993 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:37AM (#43839725)
    The designs are in English.
    • by Sez Zero ( 586611 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:48AM (#43839849) Journal

      The designs are in English.

      Not only that, but I hear the designs don't even use metric measurements. Good luck figuring them out!

      • Re:Joke's on them. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @03:29PM (#43844211)
        That's actually been a factor before. The Soviets copied the B-29 to make the Tu-4 [airforcemag.com]. One of the enormous engineering difficulties they faced was that the specs were all in imperial units. They couldn't just substitute the closest metric equivalent. They had to test each and every part to see if a slightly smaller metric piece would be strong enough, or if they needed to use a slightly bigger metric part to achieve the necessary strength.
    • by clark0r ( 925569 )
      FTFY

      The designs are in American.

    • by c0lo ( 1497653 )

      The designs are in English.

      No, the joke is on US jobs... the Chinese didn't steal them, they were leaked... it was the first step in outsourcing in the military industrial complex. You see, since sequester, the US govt doesn't pay enough for them to maintain the same level of profit, thus they need to cut the costs.

      (grin)

      • Hmm. I thought it was the first step in colonizing China. They do have WMDs, and now they have plans for uber-weapons...sounds like a good reason to go over and say "Hello" (in Mr. Popo's voice [youtube.com]). Then we can engage in a nation-(re)building exercise, while making Russia feel really uncomfortable.

    • "Lao Tzu, these plans say to make the ultra-secret RADAR out of cardboard! Are you sure the CIA didn't modify them?"

  • by msauve ( 701917 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:42AM (#43839769)
    now let them build what's in those plans, and go into perpetual national debt, crippling their economy, too!
    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      Defense isn't what put the country into debt, it was mainly a combination of years of social programs, Congress having no balls to ask Americans to pay for what they passed, and the sainted American people falling, eyes wide and cluelessly open, into the housing crisis.

      • by msauve ( 701917 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @11:06AM (#43841515)
        No, not defense spending. US military spending, which despite the Orwellian terminology used to describe it, has been predominately offensive in the past decade. The US spends about 4.8% of GDP on military spending, more than double the next largest (China), with about 2%.

        The US spends about 20% GDP on social programs (from here [oecd.org]) - below the OECD member average.
  • by intermodal ( 534361 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:45AM (#43839821) Homepage Journal

    China can steal all the designs they want, but without successfully implementing the designs, I'm honestly not that concerned. In the 1970s, China managed to kludge together a weak clone of Boeing's 20+-year-old 707, powered by what are believed to have been spare 707 engines. If you think China can manage to cobble together some F-35s that will be worth the effort, or some F/A-18s that can match US spec, you need to understand that it's easier and probably more cost-effective to place orders with Sukhoi Design Bureau for something that actually works than it is to duplicate the processes needed to actually create the American aircraft mentioned above.

    China doesn't have the best track record in building designs stolen aerospace designs from other countries, and has found better success in getting people to willingly hand them the capabilities and processes. China's MD-80 license production and the assistance they got from McDonnell-Douglas is the biggest factor in their current aerospace pushes being at least semi-feasible.

    • China can steal all the designs they want, but without successfully implementing the designs, I'm honestly not that concerned.

      North Korea buys from China. Are you scared now?

      • North Korea buys from China. Are you scared now?

        Because North Korea so totally has the ability to build F-35 clones...

    • by kbonin ( 58917 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:11AM (#43840109)

      Yes, but manufacturing processes are often also obtainable documents. Any company who has set up good process control around their manufacturing lines has probably documented almost if not everything needed to recreate their subset of the secret sauce. Due to subcontracting these constitute a more distributed set of targets, and probably have local IT staff better capable of locking down their small networks than a megacorp oursourcing model would, but its probably all still there...

    • Most high tech stuff you buy in the stores today is made in china. Just like the Japanese got mocked in the seventies, you're doing the same to the Chinese right now. The Japanese are in the world top when it comes to high tech, research and manufacturing capabilities these days. They have been there since the eighties. The Chinese may not be up to the level of the Japanese just yet, at least not on a big scale, but they are more than capable of producing high tech planes, rockets, computer equipment and wh
  • by splutty ( 43475 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:46AM (#43839829)

    This is all a conspiracy by the US government. They *say* they got hacked and the designs got stolen, but we all know that sneakilly they've just given them all to the Chinese.

    The reason for this is of course obvious: The Chinese can make these things much cheaper! So it's all about savings!

    (If you think this might be something with tongues and cheeks, you might possibly be somewhat right)

    • The reason for this is of course obvious: The Chinese can make these things much cheaper!

      Yeah, but it would just be cheap knockoff crap that does weird things like flip upside down when it crosses the international date line.

  • So here's a question: What if the leaking of these designs was intentional? There could be several motivations for doing this. One, maybe these aren't the actual designs and they are flawed in some subtle yet crucial way or perhaps multiple ways. Two, they aren't the actual designs but the goal was to lure the hackers in to determine their methods. Or three, that some peacenik thought that it was unfair that the US has all the cool toys and are attempting to achieve whirled peas by way of leveling the playing field.

  • by sl4shd0rk ( 755837 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @08:56AM (#43839949)

    Now, put some new plans on the cracked network titled 'Top Secret: Strategic F17A Propulsion Update.doc' in which the engines are installed backwards, right in line with the fuel tanks. Wait for youtube vids.

  • Say, with tolerances off just enough so that it looks good on paper and when it's built, but when you actually try to fly the thing...and the Chinese spend the next five years working out the bugs.

    .
  • the F-18 was a competitor to the F-16 design back in the 70's
    we had black hawk's in the mid 1990's when i went to air assault school and they were at least 10 years old by that time as well

  • these were first designed in the 70's and even with some upgrades i bet smartphones have a lot more computing power than the aegis cruise

  • Most advanced? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:04AM (#43840033)

    Patriot Missile: In service since 1981

    Aegis: In development since the 1980s, first test 1999

    F/A-18: Introduced in service in 1983

    V-22:First flew in 1989, entered service 2007, was unreliable for several years after that. It took us over 20 years to fully develop it

    Black Hawk: Introduced 1979

    F-35: An expensive piece of crap that can do a lot of different things not so well (a couple gems from a 2011 Pentagon study: The fuel dump subsystem poses a fire hazard, The airframe is unlikely to last through the required lifespan, The aircraft is in danger of going overweight or, for the F-35B, not properly balanced for VTOL operations, There are multiple thermal management problems. The air conditioner fails to keep the pilot and controls cool enough, the roll posts on the F-35B overheat, and using the afterburner damages the aircraft.) Would be a waste of money to try and reproduce.

    I am 26 years old, and most of these systems were in development or introduced before I was born. The 2 most recent technologies have been fraught with problems in development, production, and deployment. Maybe they should just go ahead and give the Chinese the F-22 plans as well, so half of their pilots will asphyxiate. I'm not worried about the Chinese gaining access to equipment that has been in use for decades: once something is out in the open and being used in combat/training operations, their capabilities are easily discerned and easy to copy. I would be more concerned if they got access to anything in development that we don't know about, the stuff the government is working on that they haven't revealed.

    • by CAIMLAS ( 41445 )

      I'm 31 years old. I recently bought a military surplus vehicle which was designed before I was born and manufactured before you were born. It is still in limited use in some National Guard applications but, for the most part, it has been decommissioned.

      All of the manuals and, to large degree, parts and construction are fully known. The same can be said for the humvee, except it hasn't been decomissioned and is still in broad use.

      Granted, the Chinese have blueprints for the humvee, and have been making their

    • I am 26 years old, and most of these systems were in development or introduced before I was born.

      And you also seem to be unaware that weapons systems generally aren't fixed points in time - it's a very rare system where development halts when the system enters service. Upgrades and modernization are pretty much routine for anything much more complex than a rifle or a pistol.

      The 2 most recent technologies have been fraught with problems in development, production, and deployment.

      Something you're no

    • V-22:First flew in 1989, entered service 2007, was unreliable for several years after that. It took us over 20 years to fully develop it

      You seem to think that the plans are somehow the first drafts created in 1989, as opposed to the versions created in 2007. If that's the case, not only did they get the plans for a warplane, but also the end result of an 18-year R&D project. The worst-case isn't that they can build the V-22. It's that the plans illustrate some principle/solution they haven't discover

  • The best thing that could happen to the defense of the USA is for China to start building the V-22 Osprey. Better yet, maybe we could sell some to them. At cost even.
  • by wvmarle ( 1070040 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:06AM (#43840053)

    If you keep on losing the design drawings, then no wonder they're running into delays! They really should be keeping copies of them, so in case someone steals the originals, they don't have to draw them all over again.

  • These hacks show that traditional military is losing effectiveness. Just like during the Cold War with Soviets you couldn't fight Nukes with tanks and aircraft carriers, you now can't fight militarized hackers with tanks and aircraft carriers.

    Sure, these tanks and carriers still have value, but they are not sufficient on their own. They can't protect us from our infrastructure, financial system, chunks of manufacturing and education all getting remotely wiped/disabled/overloaded from under us.

    Only now w
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:07AM (#43840063)

    Big companies tend to misclassify IT as a cost center, and apply brilliant programs like Six Sigma and Virtual Workforces to cut expenses. I've seen plenty of dangerously unqualified people assigned to set firewall and router rules on networks that contain corporate crown jewels, or open NAT paths to offshore contracting houses brought in to help make a schedule after attrition and 'rightsizing' have made it impossible to stick to the schedule handed down from above.

    In the old days this stuff would be kept on airgapped networks. Today we have 'globalized workforces' and companies are run by MBAs who don't really understand or care about things the military does. Patriotism? Doesn't appear in my mission statement...

    Posted as AC as I work for a figurehead of this problem, and waste time keeping networks I'm responsible for clear of the APTs I see continually from other parts of the companies network that NOBODY wants to talk about. You can get fired for pointing out they've cut the budgets too far. So frustrating...

  • Perhaps someone thought it was a good idea to let China build the things and then buy the finished goods back off them, thus saving all that inconvenience of paying US labour prices.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:19AM (#43840207)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • what the DoD doesnt exactly recommend is the precise thing that would secure us from this manufactured menace: reduce the amount of off-shored and outsourced manufacturing to China.

      The DoD has nothing more powerful than nuclear weapons, but the outsourcers are listed on the stock exchanges.

  • by Bob9113 ( 14996 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @09:24AM (#43840257) Homepage

    I can't help but get an image of the English soldiers in the American Revolution, standing out in the field in ranks, getting shot by George Washingtons troops, thinking, "WTF, man, you're not allowed to hide behind stuff!" Washington thinking, "Well, yeah, but... we're winning."

    American diplomats in China saying, "Like, what the fuck, guys? We're not at war, why are you stealing our stuff?" Chinese guy just completely baffled thinking, "Ummm, because we're trying to win? You fuckers have been twisting our nuts in a global economic vise for half a century because you can't get over your own propaganda from the 1950s, and you don't get what we're doing? Idiots."

    Strip away the right/wrong of it and just look at the realpolitik, it's kind of funny.

    • by k6mfw ( 1182893 )

      "WTF, man, you're not allowed to hide behind stuff!" Washington thinking, "Well, yeah, but... we're winning."

      ain't it a bitch when someone doesn't "fight fair." I believe a similar complaint was made during Vietnam War when VC didn't wear uniforms.

  • The heads of the people that let this leak be known. Not the hackers, not the people that made this information available on the internet, but the people that let America know that it was hacked. They will do jail time, and they will be the only people that do jail time.

  • by Zamphatta ( 1760346 ) on Tuesday May 28, 2013 @10:04AM (#43840697) Homepage
    I can't help but wonder if this is all just disinformation. See, it would be to the U.S's great advantage to let the Chinese steal stuff & make them think that what they're stealing is genuine. Why else would they actually go public about something like this? Why would they want to admit publicly that this was real, when they redact so many less sensitive things in FOIA requests? This is either warmongering or an attempt to convince the spies that something extremely valuable was really stolen, and I highly doubt the U.S. military is interested in going to war against China.

The gent who wakes up and finds himself a success hasn't been asleep.

Working...