The "Triple Package" Explains Why Some Cultural Groups Are More Successful 397
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Yale Law School professors Amy Chua, the self-proclaimed 'Tiger Mom,' and her husband Jed Rubenfeld write in the NYT that it may be taboo to say it, but certain ethnic, religious and national-origin groups are doing strikingly better than Americans overall and Chua and Rubenfeld claim to have identified the three factors that account some group's upward mobility. 'It turns out that for all their diversity, the strikingly successful groups in America today share three traits that, together, propel success,' write Chua and Rubenfeld. 'The first is a superiority complex — a deep-seated belief in their exceptionality. The second appears to be the opposite — insecurity, a feeling that you or what you've done is not good enough. The third is impulse control.' Ironically, each element of the Triple Package violates a core tenet of contemporary American thinking. For example, that insecurity should be a lever of success is anathema in American culture. Feelings of inadequacy are cause for concern or even therapy and parents deliberately instilling insecurity in their children is almost unthinkable. Yet insecurity runs deep in every one of America's rising groups; and consciously or unconsciously, they tend to instill it in their children. Being an outsider in a society — and America's most successful groups are all outsiders in one way or another — is a source of insecurity in itself. Immigrants worry about whether they can survive in a strange land, often communicating a sense of life's precariousness to their children. Hence the common credo: They can take away your home or business, but never your education, so study harder. 'The United States itself was born a Triple Package nation, with an outsized belief in its own exceptionality, a goading desire to prove itself to aristocratic Europe and a Puritan inheritance of impulse control,' conclude Chua and Rubenfeld adding that prosperity and power had their predictable effect, eroding the insecurity and self-restraint that led to them. 'Thus the trials of recent years — the unwon wars, the financial collapse, the rise of China — have, perversely, had a beneficial effect: the return of insecurity...America has always been at its best when it has had to overcome adversity and prove its mettle on the world stage. For better and worse, it has that opportunity again today.'"
Jewish "superiority complex?" (Score:2, Interesting)
Simple enough... (Score:5, Interesting)
Feeling of inadequacy guilts one into taking action, to actually attempt to strive to meet that perceived superiority.
Impulse control prevents one from going for instant short-term benefits when those benefits are small, when one can see longer-term benefits by being willing to settle for something lesser now.
I'm not going to get into the racism and other unfortunate points of the argument, but it's not that surprising to me that those that feel that they can achieve will achieve, while those that don't feel that they can achieve won't, by the averages.
Re:Simple enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
The middle one is an easy trip to mental illness.
This all seems like a bunch pseudoscience BS, it's not worth any serious consideration.
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It's not even pseudoscience, it's an op-ed from a couple law professors.
Re:Simple enough... (Score:4, Interesting)
The middle one is an easy trip to mental illness.
Actually, feelings of inadequacy are absolutely essential to learning your limits and realizing there are greater goals you can strive for. If you've never felt inadequate, then you've never challenged yourself. Far from being "an easy trip to mental illness," I'd say that someone who has never felt that way is likely a seriously mentally-ill megalomaniac.
For example, a few years ago I read about surveys of self-esteem for top schools like MIT. Students entering MIT have incredibly high self-esteem. Many of them were valedictorians or near the top of their high school classes. Everything probably came easily to them.
Now look at their perspectives when they graduate. Their feeling of self-worth is in the toilet. I believe the study estimated it took something like 10 years after leaving MIT before the undergraduates actually recovered their previous self-esteem.
Now, what happened? Those students were challenged in ways they never had been before. I don't know if this is still the case, but for many years part or all of freshman year at MIT was pass/fail -- to set a standard. You realized you might just end up with Cs, even if you were at the top of your class in high school. Other top schools often don't have this "calibration" time, and instead (like Harvard) give out just about all A's. They never set a standard. They don't make sure that almost all students feel inadequate and truly challenged.
Nevertheless, most MIT students apparently choose to work harder and to continue to try to succeed. And that's one reason why graduates are often successful, as well as highly valued in the workforce.
Of course, such a trajectory can lead to mental illness, and sometimes does. But for most it's better to be significantly challenged to the point that you realize how ignorant you are and try harder to achieve, rather than going through life thinking you're always going to be on top.
Re:Simple enough... (Score:4, Insightful)
Lawyers writing an opinion piece doth not science make, neither real nor social science.
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Which "racism" would that be? The article explicitly and clearly points out that these traits are not caused by race.
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It's a common cause of confusion. Certain behaviours and tendencies can be attributed to specific cultures. I really wish people would realize that culture is learned, can be changed, and includes both good and bad aspects. The bad aspects of cultures should be changed, but it's touchy because it often gets ibnncorrectly equated to race.
Re:Simple enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
Here is an interesting example supporting your point FTA:
By the same token, racism is adaptable. Adherents will just shift their focus from genetic factors, to cultural ones, and in fact, that is in a sense what the article suggests with the exceptionalism point.
Honestly, the more I think about this the more disturbing it is, particularly the inferiority thing. I've ended up doing fairly well by objective measures -- I'm from one of those successful cultural groups -- but I'm still very insecure and often deeply unhappy. At the end of it, we're dead, and I'm a good 2/3 of the way there, still wondering how I can waste so much of my life being unhappy.
I end up thinking about the immigrant wisdom of, "they can take everything from you, but they can't take your education" -- well, death takes that too and if you lead a life of suffering (for no good reason, just cultural BS) -- what the fuck good did it do you?
Re:Simple enough... (Score:5, Interesting)
The bad aspects of cultures should be changed, but it's touchy because it often gets ibnncorrectly equated to race.
I think that culture is deliberately equated to race by some to dismiss, without consideration, the idea that the disadvantages some people carry because of their culture are 1) repairable, by fixing the bad aspects of the culture, and 2) the fault of the members of the culture, by teaching these bad thought patterns and behaviors to their members.
It's far more appealing to these people to think that certain people are inferior/superior because of their race (the racist crowd) or that it's somehow everybody else's fault for the failure of certain cultures to prosper (the PC crowd). Equating culture to race allows us to not address the shortcomings in our different cultures and to shout down any attempt to even identify the shortcomings as racist.
Cultures may have strong correlation to race because distinct cultures were often developed by racially isolated groups of people. But cultures, and the individual behaviors and ideas contains within them, are portable to every group of people. We should be dissecting cultures to adopt the good aspects and shed the bad ones.
WTF? (Score:3, Interesting)
This piece of "outrage journalism" was "news" two weeks ago. /. regurgitating it? And why after waiting two weeks?
Why is
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Also, in over your head with dipshits.
yep, always threaten my kids (Score:4, Funny)
really the older one since he is the only one in school
tell him if he doesn't study and put an effort in that he is going to be kicked back to day care
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If you don't know what your child's most valued toy/item is, you're seriously out of touch with your kid.
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Observation has always been the greatest tool of a parent.
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the oldest one doesn't like to clean up so one time i grabbed some of the toys he doesn't like that much and threw them in the trash right in front of him. he was cleaning his junk off the floor for the next hour
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I didn't even need to threaten my kids ... I helped them doing what they want, until they suffered so much they stopped.
One time I saw my underage son smoking. Instead of berating him how bad smoking is, I went out to buy some big cigars, came back, cut one cigar for him, shoved that thing into his mouth, light that cigar, and then, I told him in a very very soft voice ... "smoke it"
Yep. I sat there watching him cough, choke, cried, and threw up. By the time he finished that cigar (my wife was jumping mad a
Crazy! (Score:5, Funny)
This explains why my manager is a psycho :D
Re:Crazy! (Score:5, Interesting)
Native kids, born into the complacency that is life in a wealthy western nation, often lack the drive wielded by those not too far removed from the have-not lifestyle afforded by life with fewer resources.
First generation immigrants are generally more motivated and productive compared to those farmed locally.
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First generation immigrants are generally more motivated and productive compared to those farmed locally.
This is why immigration has always been the economic engine that drives the United States. It is the reason that we became a superpower. Sure, abundance of natural resources and a business-friendly government infrastructure plus a culture with a healthy respect for the rule of law have been important, too, but the American Dream is all about lifting oneself economically, and without the influx of motivated and productive people to fill the bottom tiers, it wouldn't work. We got where we are by sucking smart
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Yawn..... (Score:2)
Re:Yawn..... (Score:4, Informative)
Seems like a blinding flash of the obvious, in a lot of ways
You haven't read their follow up paper, wherein we learn that spending all your time stoned on pot and alcohol correlates with low achievement in life.
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Actually also "knowing" that you can do better than all others (which is never true) and hence propelling you into positions you are unqualified for. The worth of these people for society is strongly negative. It explains why so many "managers" are so incredibly bad at their job though.
What about the 4th & 5th? (Score:3)
Talent and damn hard work.
Its all very well being some extrovert but insecure snake oil salesman , but if you really have nothing behind the shiny smile and/or you're lazy then the odds are you're not going to get very far.
On the other hand I'm come across plenty of shy retiring types who may not have all the smart ass patter and have no more insecurity than anyone else - but they have brains and they do well.
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Not required. Talent is a hindrance for success in the US. Obsessive-compulsion are a plus though. And "hard work"? You know that quantity cannot make up for quality, right? Well, as far as "success" goes, it does, but only on the surface.
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A genius who can't be bothered to get out of bed in the morning or put much effort into problem solving isn't going to be particularly successful. You need more than just brains to succeed.
and immigrants tend to buy property (Score:2)
at least here in NYC i see lots of American young kids spending insane amounts of money in rent to live in the trendy and hip neighborhoods to spend even more money on overpriced alcohol at bars and whatever
the immigrants are the ones who own the million dollar homes in the best school zones here in places lots of new yorkers have never heard of
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What a bunch of baloney! Sample bias buddy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a very successful (by most metrics. education, job security, networth, income, family, status/respect among the peers) Indian American. Any statistics about Indian Americans suffers from terrible sample bias. Almost all the Indian immigrants to USA fall into exactly two categories. 1. Highly educated (post grad + in India from top Indian universities, IITs, IIMs, IISc, AIIMSs, NITs, RECs, etc). 2. Emigres from Gujrat business communities. Both groups would be very successful wherever they go, not because of any of this triple package.
The Gujarati business community is world wide and they thrive in every corner of the world. A huge percentage of grocery stores, motels, retail stores and pawn shops in Africa, Caribbean and Pacific islands are owned by them, and they are making big inroads into USA, UK, Canada, New Zeland, Australia etc as their immigration polices are getting relaxed .
The educated Indians were bottled up in India, when it was pursuing socialistic policies. A small trickle of engineers and doctors from India in 1960s became a veritable torrent during 1990s. Stated with F1 student visa, and then H1B work visas. They are all college educated.
The achievements of Indian children in academics in the USA is not very much out place compared to the Whites, Jews, the African Americans or Chinese, if you draw a sample with same level of education/wealth from these communities.
This triple package theory does not explain why, despite being endowed with the triple package in the dyed in wool pristine form, India and Nigeria are so corrupt and so mired in poverty.
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This triple package theory does not explain why, despite being endowed with the triple package in the dyed in wool pristine form, India and Nigeria are so corrupt and so mired in poverty.
could perhaps be answered by saying that the people who share the three traits all emigrate to the US and become successful.
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What you described at the end is exactly sample bias, so I'm confused that you don't consider it so. The claim is roughly that you can look at "successful groups" and determine what makes them culturally superior by assuming their differences account for their success.
Yet if you included a full sample size of that culture from the origin country, the distribution may be (and probably is) no different than a randomly chosen cultural group in the U.S. while still sharing the cultural traits that were assumed
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The author fails to explain the methodology by which she determined all these successful groups are so much like her. Given that she has a history of self-promotion, I suspect her technique was "narcissism, QED."
The actual, observable behavior of the successful groups is that they work hard, pursue self-improvement, and persevere. This is exactly what American mythology says is the formula for success, and what do you know, it worked for me, too! What motivates people to do that is largely irrelevant, and t
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I think it explains it quite well: the attitudes of the "triple package theory" are produced when a particular subgroup of people emigrates to the US. When they stay at home, they don't feel like they have to prove themselves. I think the article pretty much says as much. I don't see a contradiction.
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The Time op-ed mentions the children of Chinatown wait staff excelling in NYC highschools. Those aren't educated families
What's being described is an Adlerian superiority-inferiority complex. Get to know some who expresses strong feelings of either superiority or inferiority, and you'll most likely find they also have the other paired with it. It's a well-mapped variety of neurosis.
As for the emphasis on delayed gratification, the authors claim that this is incompatible with an emphasis on the now. But they
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You do realize that none of what you wrote contradicts what Chua and Rubenfeld said, right? In fact, they have nothing to do with what they said. You are pointing out specific communities that are successful and what they do. They are pointing out traits that seem to be common in all those groups, and which drive why these communities do what they do.
For what it's worth, I agree with them. Without the belief that you can succeed, you will not. Without the belief that you have to succeed (because otherwise b
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This triple package theory does not explain why, despite being endowed with the triple package in the dyed in wool pristine form, India and Nigeria are so corrupt and so mired in poverty.
Shhh ... you'll cause cognitive dissonance amongst the neo-eugenicists.
The lasting damage of 19th/20th century colonialism would be my immediate assumption.
Japan was leveled in WWII, and yet they came back. Neither India nor Nigeria were leveled. While I condemn colonialism, the British occupation actually left them with some pretty good infrastructure, like the railroads. There were also quite a few elite who'd been educated at top universities (e.g. Gandhi). Post-WWII India started off in better shape than Japan.
Does not sound desirable at all (Score:5, Insightful)
All these, except impulse control, are strong indicators of an imbalanced and immature personality. These people are a problem. Their "success" is essentially of negative worth to society, and, I suspect, to themselves.
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1) Belief that you are capable of success
2) Awareness that you have not reached your potential
3) Impulse control
A different way of describing the same thing, that is not so controversial (and won't get as many page hits).
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1) Belief that you are capable of success
2) Awareness that you have not reached your potential
3) Impulse control
Those may help, but we already know that impulse control is sufficient to explain the outcomes (marshmallow experiment). Perhaps it's:
1) bullshit
2) bullshit
3) impuse control, as proven 30 years ago
But that sells fewer books.
P.S. Slashdot, your <ol> is broken.
Once (not at band camp) (Score:2)
I was a young boy, it was 4th grade and I was living in Taiwan. (no I was not a military brat)
Our "American" school took us on a field trip to a Taiwanese school to see what it was like for local kids our age. At my school we did math problems such as 23 x 65 = ?, yes... that's all the more difficult it was.
At the Taiwanese school they did problems such as 34251 x 67453 = ?, but that wasn't all they did, a lot of what was on their board I didn't even understand.
It's been suggested that a lot of the kids at
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34251 x 67453 isn't really more difficult than 23 x 65, merely longer. You just repeat the exact same steps more times.
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The leap from being able to do 23x65, and being able to do 34251 x 67453 isn't a trivial one.
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'68 in Vietnam in a rude house in a tiny village a fourth grade girl was working on her homework. I looked to see what she was doing. She was studying set theory, the exact same material my brother was working on in high school, back in the states.
Actually, it all boils down to impulse control. (Score:3)
Correct observation - wrong conclusion (Score:2)
Success = happiness? (Score:5, Interesting)
Would you rather be successful and miserable, or a happy failure?
I'm told that Hawaii, for example, has an odd vibe where a lot of people lead frugal lives with clapped out cars and McJobs, but they're there because it's a wonderful place to live. Do they deserve contempt for their lack of ambition? Praise for their ability to value the things that really matter? Respect despite having chosen a path we might not choose for ourselves?
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Would you rather be successful and miserable, or a happy failure?
I'm told that Hawaii, for example, has an odd vibe where a lot of people lead frugal lives with clapped out cars and McJobs, but they're there because it's a wonderful place to live. Do they deserve contempt for their lack of ambition? Praise for their ability to value the things that really matter? Respect despite having chosen a path we might not choose for ourselves?
Considering that my dream life involves tropical air, building guitars all day (because I want to, not because I need income) while my wife shoots the curls, and killing a fair amount of what I eat... hell, I'll admit to being just a little green with envy.
Re:Success = happiness? (Score:4, Interesting)
It reminds me of a Joke/Story.
I'm going to paraphase because I CBA typing it all out.
An American businessman is on holidays in Mexico. He meets a tomato farmer. The Tomato farmer makes enough money to get by on. The American asks him why he doesn't take a bank loan, buy more land, hire more workers plant more tomatoes. He could grow his business, get rich. Sure it might involve many additional hours of effort and toil, and a few years of sleepless nights while making ends meet, but eventually he might have a thriving business.
After 30-40 years of this, he could then retire, and perhaps start a small tomato farm to keep busy.
The Mexican looked around him and offered, "Don't I have that right now?"
No kidding (Score:3)
Also this stupid idea that "success" is some kind of binary thing where you either work really hard all the time and make a lot of money, and thus are successful, or you are a failure, not worth mention. If you don't have the right kind of job in the right field that pays the right amount of money and has the right kind of prestige then you just suck, your life sucks, and you are useless.
I think that is an exceedingly unhealthy and narrow minded outlook. This, really overtly material attitude at its core wh
Impulse control (Score:5, Insightful)
I love that they made impulse control one of the three important characteristics. I think it's an important factor to be sure and one that really sets different people apart from each other.
Teenagers are famous for their lack of impulse control. Either it is my age showing or there really does seem to be an decrease of impulse control among American teens. It might be convenient to blame race for some of this... no, it really is easy when you look at the whole world instead of just what goes on in the U.S. But we're all human and we have a component of what we learn and are taught. Impulse control is 'behavior' and it comes largely from parenting.
The article highlights asian success who are also pretty famous for their parenting. Most people in the US find the style a bit restrictive to say the least and even distasteful. But the result speak for themselves do they not? And over the last few decades or more, there has been a constant stream of complaints by older people who keep talking about kids today and "family values" and parenting and all that. Mostly, this all falls on deaf ears of people who think they know better or that the old ways are no longer valid in "today's world."
And when you look at trending among different ethnicities in the US, where you see an increase in fatherless families or otherwise single parents you see more and more of these problems we call "impulse control" issues. (Back in the day, we said "criminal tendencies") But it's a bit sad and also gratifying that this story is not about what makes the white man in America successful. After all, the white man in America is the target of blame for other ethnicities' shortcomings. But I am glad this study points out that other non-white people can do better than white people and white people don't seem to be resentful or trying to take them down, let alone "keeping them down." (In fact, I would go so far as to say the white man is generally in awe of and are looking up to the successful asians.) So isn't it about time we stop listening to the complaints which even today continue to sound about the white man in America?
At he end of the day, each of us only have ourselves to blame for what we can and cannot do. (Within some reason of course.) But impulse control is huge. It's what affects the decisions and courses we take in life. I once or twice explained to my sons that life is a series of forks and paths. Some are mutually exclusive. When you make one choice, many other choices disappear. For example, getting a facial tattoo would close a LOT of doors in a person's future. (And those damned gauged earrings? Who, outside of a cannibalistic clan, would think that is acceptable in society?)
I have a sense of responsibility. I have this dark inner feeling that the things my family and especially my children do are a reflection on me. So I do what I can to ensure they reflect as well as possible. I hope my sons feel the same way as they go through life. It's a driving factor in family values. We need a lot more of this. No more single parents. No more running away from responsibility. Life isn't about whether or not you're happy any more. That's on you, but it's not on you to make another person's life worse because you're unhappy. That's a violation.
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Teenagers are famous for their lack of impulse control. Either it is my age showing or there really does seem to be an decrease of impulse control among American teens.
I don't think impulse control has decreased at all. The only difference I've noted is that the hyper-connectivity of modern times provides much more opportunity to exercise their lack of impulse control. It's exacerbated further due to their parents not having grown up in a remotely similar environment, and so being unable to anticipate certain things.
Re:Impulse control (Score:4, Insightful)
Do workahollics have impulse control?
Coincidentally.... (Score:2)
One word, discipline (Score:2)
"Chosen People" doesn't mean what you think (Score:2)
The "chosen people" are "chosen" in the sense they have extra requirements, not superiority. They are expected to lead by example, by adhering to 613 commandments while the rest of the world is only expected to adhere to 7 commandments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S... [wikipedia.org]
All this is to say, anyone who believes they are superior because they were born X or Y is missing the point. People of any ethnic or religious background can achieve the same "level" by helping to make the world a better place. You are judge
So good old-fashioned hard work & self-motivat (Score:2)
That's the key to success? Sounds like conservative values to me. Especially when the author says "Ironically, each element of the Triple Package violates a core tenet of contemporary American thinking."
Among other detriments, contemporary American thinking assigns virtue to victimhood; a fallacy, for sure. It gives disadvantaged people a false moral high ground and one-sided sense of entitlement; an excuse factory. "Blame the system". Mean while the system has grown to be more of what it has been befo
Gets popcorn.... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is some serious racial/ethnic flame war fuel right here.
I would hazard a guess that many of the immigrants who come here are already motivated to do better, why else would they leave their home to come here? They aren't going to let their kids sit in front of a video game for hours when they busted their ass to relocate to another country and build a better future. They also want to make sure their kids are pushed into prestigious, high income jobs like business management, lawyers and doctors. You can't blame them for trying to ensure their kids are successful.
"Native" kids and their parents don't know the hardships such as poverty, disease or oppressive governments their immigrant parents experienced in their homeland. They take their comfortable life for granted and don't have the same motivation to succeed because they already feel successful. As long as they get to play video games, go out on a weekend to party and have enough money to pay rent and bills, they are satisfied. This usually happens around the second or third generation born here.
And as a side note:
You want to know the secret to success? Risk. Immigrants took a big risk to come here. Their kids will also take risks like starting a business or changing jobs at the drop of a hat for more pay. Of all the people I know, the ones who are successful are the ones who took risks career wise and went into business or made major job/career changes.
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So does this mean ... (Score:2)
Racial propensity for happiness (Score:3)
Another factor perhaps? From The Economist magazine:
"That personality, along with intelligence, is at least partly heritable is becoming increasingly clear; so, presumably, the tendency to be happy or miserable is, to some extent, passed on through DNA. To try to establish just what that extent is, a group of scientists from University College, London; Harvard Medical School; the University of California, San Diego; and the University of Zurich examined over 1,000 pairs of twins from a huge study on the health of American adolescents.
The adolescents in Dr De Neve's study were asked to grade themselves from very satisfied to very dissatisfied. Dr De Neve found that those with one long allele were 8% more likely than those with none to describe themselves as very satisfied; those with two long alleles were 17% more likely.
Where the story could become controversial is when the ethnic origins of the volunteers are taken into account. All were Americans, but they were asked to classify themselves by race as well. On average, the Asian Americans in the sample had 0.69 long genes, the black Americans had 1.47 and the white Americans had 1.12."
-- "The Genetics of Happiness", The Economist, 15 Oct 2011 [economist.com]
Add to that: "fails often" (Score:4, Insightful)
The wording of the first two traits is strong, and easily misinterpreted, like mistaking humility with being a pushover. "Superiority complex" might be better rendered as "the knowledge one can do better than this"; "insecurity" is crippling compared to "the sense that the present condition is unttnable")
I'll add one last one to the trio though: "fails often" or rather, being able to recognize that failure is a milestone in an endeavour, not a gravestone; failure is a better teacher than success [youarenotsosmart.com]. This concept is alive and well amongst entrepreneurs of all cultures, and is essential to not erode the forward drive offered by the "superiority complex."
The ability to digest one's own failure is also an essential trait to continue to foster curiosity and experimentation - an ability easily lost in our obsession of being right first time, embodied by our acceptance of "do or do not, there is no try."
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Indeed. Superiority founded only on an irrational believe of being superior. In fact, these people are a problem.
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Well, it always depends on how you measure success ... who's more successful, the small guy who manages to get around with minimum wage jobs, or the top manager who tanks several companies but always leaves with the golden parachute?
So, you obviously measure success by how much earthly capital a person acquires throughout their lives.
I measure it by being able to do what I want and be happy, without having to be a selfish douche-bag.
In accordance with that metric, I know homeless people who are far more successful than any corporate executive.
It'll work if you want to suceed (Score:5, Interesting)
When I arrived on the shore of America I had nothing.
I didn't even speak English.
To make the long story short - two of the three factors were very vital for my survival, and ultimately put me to where I am - except for the "superiority" factor, because I was less than a nothing back then.
As I grow more accustomed to the American lives, I get to know people from different cultures - for one reason or another, I find one group very very interesting - the Jews.
They are in so many ways so similar to the Chinese - and yet, they are far superior to the Chinese (yes, insecurity complex at play here) in that the Jews have a purpose in their own private lives and also for their community lives - on the other hand, most Chinese do not.
At the end of the day, the success of the Jews is not a fluke - their culture is structured in such a way that death of one member is nothing - even a massacre of millions to the Jews is nothing - as long as their culture gets to live on.
BBC has a very interesting program on the revival of Jewish culture in Krakow, Poland -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programme... [bbc.co.uk]
What the Chinese have is number. What the Jews have is determination.
But other than that, in many other aspect in lives, what the Jews are can very much be found in the Chinese.
And I am not the only one who is saying this - read the following article (written by a Jew) to find out what he says ---
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/C... [atimes.com]
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They are in so many ways so similar to the Chinese - and yet, they are far superior to the Chinese (yes, insecurity complex at play here) in that the Jews have a purpose in their own private lives and also for their community lives - on the other hand, most Chinese do not.
This comes from their survival instinct. No one fears the Chinese are going to be wiped off the map.
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I seriously question the cultural superiority of the Jews or any other particular group. However, one thing I've always admired about the Jews is that as a people they are the ultimate survivors. They are, and always have been, a small group. They've endured the Egyptian exodus, the Babylonian conquest and diaspora, the Roman diaspora, numerous pogroms, attempts to destroy them and blaming them for everything including the Great Plague, their expulsion after the Reconquista, the Inquisitions (both Roman and
Re:It'll work if you want to suceed (Score:5, Insightful)
Despite generations of discrimination, most Jews and Chinese are faring significantly better than white Americans.
Uhm ... most Jews (in America) are white Americans.
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Uhm ... most Jews (in America) are white Americans.
In America, Jews are considered "white folks", but in many other places they are not. When I lived in Europe, I was surprised at how "religion aware" people there are. They knew which of their friends/co-workers were catholic, protestant, etc., whereas in America most people don't care much about that. The split is more between any religion and no religion. My city has a "Christmas in the Park" celebration, and some atheists lobbied to get it shut down. They were opposed by an alliance consisting of Ch
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Christians used to burn witches at the stake, so ...
Research the number of witches burnt and stop repeating this urban myth.
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That's the rub though- there is not 'white' identity. What is the culture of an Appalachian coal miner -vs- middle class suburban dweller outside Boston? Does this include Mormons? White doesn't really mean much anymore other than some kind of way to obfuscate a conversation- much like the term Hispanic.
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For making a comment like that in response to a factual correction, which contained not a whiff of prejudice, you deserve Slashdot's "Ass of the Year" award.
Re:It'll work if you want to suceed (Score:5, Insightful)
I seriously question your ability to recognize objective reality over political correctness.
That's ok, I seriously question your ability to consider possibilities beyond whatever confirms your biases. Analogously, I question your ability to see anything in writing beyond what confirms your biases and kneejerk reactions, as I did not outright reject the idea. I simply expressed skepticism (a useful thing when taking a scientific view). Moreover, the main reason for my skepticism is the difficulty of studying such questions objectively, particularly when many of the "researchers" are so absorbed in their own preconceived notions (people such as yourself).
Despite generations of discrimination, most Jews and Chinese ...
My family is Jewish. The level of discrimination experienced by Jews is far less than what many other groups experienced. Yes, I know about "gentleman's agreements" and the "Jewish quota", but as bad as they were, they were minor compared to what many other groups experienced. At one point anti-Catholic sentiment was stronger than anti-Jewish sentiment. Every synagogue in America has a copy of George Washington's letter welcoming the first Jewish community to America. Contrast that with the fact that the man was a slave owner.
Another factor is that at the time most Jews came to this country, the family farm was already waning due to increases in productivity. The supply of people who knew how to farm exceeded the demand. Trades people, certain types of craftsmen, and so forth were better tickets to prosperity. Jews were concentrated in that work, and few were farmers, because in much of Europe they couldn't own land, and had to move from one country to another from time to time. The timing for their arrival in America was fortuitous.
As for Chinese, there was at one time strong prejudices against them, although largely concentrated in the West Coast and not as bad as against black people, for example. The prejudice also waned earlier (WWII prejudice was against Japanese, and China was out ally). Moreover, the majority of people of Chinese descent in America are from people that arrived here much more recently. Our prejudicial immigration policy only ended in 1965, and then for some decades thereafter it wasn't easy to emigrate from China. Hence they arrived at a time when not only was there little or no anti-Chinese prejudice, but at a time when they were being promoted as the "model minority". Lastly, most Chinese immigrants are people who are middle class or better. They are generally not some ill-educated farmers from the still very poor hinterlands. The same is true of Indian immigrants.
I also note that you switched from talking about Chinese to talking about Asians (presumably East Asians, unless you include say, Tajiks). Obviously China is not all of East Asia, but you tout East Asian cultures in general. So how do you account for the fact that the Vietnamese are not a particularly successful immigrant group?
I don't know the relative importance of the various factors I mentioned and, given the difficulties and fog of bias surrounding such studies, I question who does. My main point is that the issues go way, way beyond your "there are mostly Asian kids in my Scratch class". Or are you going to stick to that observation as your "objective" view?
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... Every synagogue in America has a copy of George Washington's letter welcoming the first Jewish community to America....
Minor correction: the famous Washington letter to the Touro Synagogue in Newport, RI in 1790 was not "welcoming the first Jewish community to America", since the synagogue represented a community of Jews that had lived in New England continuously since 1654, i.e. 136 years. It was simply a formal statement of goodwill and religious toleration to a community that had helped win the American Revolution (Haym Solomon for example had a crucial role in financing the Continental Army and supporting French forces)
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Normally I'd avoid doing the feeding -- but what the hey - it's a Monday.
You'd like a satisfactory explanation -- okay. Fair enough. From 1791 to 1965, the statement "The Man is keeping me down" was actually true. It was the law of the land for things like "Separate but Equal", "No You Can't Ride Here", "No You Can't Have This Job" - etc. Second Class citizenship and all the trappings that go with it. Those that were successful in spite of things (Arthur Ashe, Bill Cosby, Diana Ross) were the exception
Re:It'll work if you want to suceed (Score:4, Interesting)
and America's most successful groups are all outsiders in one way or another
Okay but American blacks have NEVER felt like part of mainstream society and they are definitely the least prosperous group. That's a great big gaping hole in the theory that needs to be explained.
Having a culture that glorifies violence and street crime and actively persecutes those who want education really, really doesn't help. That's what gangsta culture does. No group could thrive with that. So the real question is why the nearly suicidal anti-achievement attitude? Where does it come from? Why can't people understand that embracing it means forever denying yourself your true protential? The successful black people who own businesses, enter the professions, and work in academia all have one thing in common: they rejected thug culture and growing up, they were often targeted and harasses and assaulted because of it. Not by whites, but by fellow American blacks.
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American blacks have NEVER felt like part of mainstream society
When was the last time the Chinese were part of the "American mainstream society" ?
When was the last time the Jews feel like they are the "mainstream" anywhere but in Israel ?
Nope. None from the Chinese nor from the Jews.
However, both groups are thriving while the latino-americans and the african-americans are struggling, and you know why ?
The Jews never blame anybody else for their own failure, nor the Chinese.
When we (and I can speak only for the Chinese here) fail, we look into ourselves trying to find w
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You know this is ridiculous, right? You're trying to paint entire ethnic groups of millions and millions of people with one, broad stroke. It is bound to fail from the beginning.
I've seen lazy/hardworking, happy/sad, blah/anti-blah Jews, Chinese, Palestinians, Caucasians, Indians, ... everything. There is no overarching theme that applies equally to all.
Re:It'll work if you want to suceed (Score:5, Interesting)
When was the last time the Jews feel like they are the "mainstream" anywhere but in Israel ?
That's easy: 2014, in the United States. There are a lot of places in which being Jewish not only doesn't make you an outsider, it makes you the dominant religious group. You can find these places in nice neighborhoods in metropolitan New York City, around institutions of higher learning, and in the upper echelons of many businesses. Announcing that you're Jewish in the United States will typically garner about the same reaction as announcing that you're Baptist.
Jewish people in the US have not received anything close to the oppression that black people have, and I say that as someone who's part Jewish. Jewish Americans were not:
- effectively barred from living in most of the country.
- prevented from attending public schools and later institutions of higher learning, which allowed them to gain the skills they needed to succeed.
- paid less than their non-Jewish counterparts doing the same job.
- beaten or killed as a common recreational activity in large areas of the country, with police either ignoring it or actively supporting it.
- prevented from borrowing money from banks, which allowed them to buy homes and start businesses.
- targeted by America's current system of racial oppression called the "War on Drugs".
A big reason for this is that any white Jew (there are non-white Jews, but the vast majority are white) who doesn't do something to telegraph that they're Jewish can pretty easily blend in with other white people. This is obviously a benefit that Chinese and Indian immigrants didn't get, but it's real, and significant.
Re:Victimization will not get you anywhere ... (Score:4, Interesting)
The one difference between the Jews and the so-called "black people" is that the Jews do not dwell on how oppressed they were, in the hand of the others.
Holy crap! Its a part of their culture. Listen to a few of the last generation's Jewish comedians. Its true that many younger US Jews don't buy into the whole victim psychology like their elders did. But there is an active propaganda campaign generated in Israel to continually remind the diaspora of their past suffering and, oh yea, keep sending that money and voting the homeland's political interests. So you'll all have someplace to go when 'they' turn on us again.
Other nationalities and races don't have to put up with the same crap that blacks still do. Jim Crow laws were still in place within the lifetimes of many African Americans. And there is still a racist movement in this country that keeps the propaganda going. Jews, Vietnamese and others have an internal meme of their oppression. Blacks keep having it shoved on them from the outside. And that's the primary difference between the success/failure of their groups within this country.
Re:Victimization will not get you anywhere ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I explained why: White Americans organized systems to keep black people from achieving the same success available to other ethnic minorities. I described a bunch of the systems that black people were and still are on the receiving end of that Jewish people (and, for that matter, Vietnamese people) never experienced in remotely similar numbers.
When you're in a rigged game, the most moral and capable person imaginable will still lose. The game of life was and continues to be rigged against black people. Why should there be any surprise that they don't have the same successes experienced by people who got to play by the same rules as everyone else?
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I am often quite comfortable with blaming those in power, actually.
If you want to change your life and improve, this is a recipe for failure. The ones in power don't care about you, they have theirs.
Of course, if you are happy to not change your life and improve, then blaming others is perfectly acceptable.
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and America's most successful groups are all outsiders in one way or another
Okay but American blacks have NEVER felt like part of mainstream society and they are definitely the least prosperous group. That's a great big gaping hole in the theory that needs to be explained.
Did you even read the SUMMARY???? There is a TRIPLE criteria. Blacks in general don't fit criteria #1 which is a sense of exceptionalism but
instead have a glass ceiling, not good enough, victim mentality, etc... This is obviously a stereotype but a sense that you can and are able to
accomplish anything is one of the criterias needed in order to take the risks needed to succeed. If you have a "learned helplessness" mentality
regardless of the reason then you clearly fail criteria #1.
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Basically you need to feel like an outsider and feel like you're better than everyone else to be truly successful.
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Basically you need to feel like an outsider and feel like you're better than everyone else to be truly successful.
This is true. I have both of these things (though I lack impulse control hence posting comments on slashdit when I should be working). But insecurity does make people unhappy - even though it drives success. I whether you'd rather be successful and anxious, or relaxed and 'mediocre' in your achievements. Perhaps that is to question to meaning of 'success'.
Re:It'll work if you want to suceed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It'll work if you want to suceed (Score:4, Interesting)
How about you add a disclaimer to the top of your post? "Warning: Post contains my anecdotally-proven religious and racial stereotypes."
No shit. I cringed as soon as I read:
"They are in so many ways so similar to the Chinese - and yet, they are far superior to the Chinese (yes, insecurity complex at play here) in that the Jews have a purpose in their own private lives and also for their community lives - on the other hand, most Chinese do not.
It will be hard to find a more unfortunate sentence than that on /. today.
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What I've found interesting is that the successful groups tend to have two other factors in common, and that is not just working hard, but working smart. One can work hard doing double-shifts at Burger World or Krusty Burger, but after 20 years, still be making minimum wage.
One can jump from job to job doing nothing and just paying lip service, but come a recession, eventually not make it.
I hate stereotyping, but a lot of ethnic groups work extremely hard. However, what they have might be a restaurant, gr
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To ascribe several personality factors as crucial to social or financial success is speculation, worthy of research, maybe interesting.
To then anoint specific groups as possessing those traits, especially just on the basis of hearsay, is bigotry.
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In fact, it is most often the link followed in pursuit.
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Sadly, whatever it is is blocked where I am. The first guess I'd level out the gate is that it's an extension of "scientific racism" wherein "racial traits" are determined at a broad-based statistical level, and used for inferences about individuals in a way that only justifies biases and doesn't really inform.
Is that what it was?
Re:Jim Goad... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Jim Goad... (Score:5, Insightful)
The maturity of the article, combined with the vulgar name calling and his own admission that he did not read the book, makes me question anything he has to say. A quick search shows his penchant for beating people up and getting himself incarcerated, none of which particularly helps his case.
In contrast, Amy and Jed are both Yale professors, and if nothing else, their hypotheses are backed up by some semblance of data.
He also employs sheer hyperbole in interpreting the piece:
If he had read the piece, he'd have read the following:
So yeah, I don't think the word "salient" really applies here. He's nothing more than a dimwit troll, and his language, demeanor, and reading skills only highlight that.
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Mod parent +5. I was going to ask the same thing. I don't have the stomach to read this book, so I ask anyone who has. Is there even a pretense of science, or is it just the author blowing smoke out of her ass?
Negative prejudice is looked down upon these days, but positive prejudice is accepted. Why? I remember a time when we were traveling through Nevada, and my brother commented that one thing you have to give the Mormons is that they take good care of their children. I'm sure that's true, but it raises a
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Parenting in the US is like the parable of the miller, his son, and the donkey. Follow the doctors and teachers, the kid gets drugged up and possibly development is damaged due to unexpected side effects. Not using drugs, one might end up facing CPS.
Schooling is similar if one isn't wealthy enough to afford a private school. One can hope the public school system isn't going to churn out too broken an education, or one can try homeschooling, and that is another bag of worms [1].
[1]: So far, the closest t