Star Trek Fans Told To Stop "Spocking" Canadian $5 Bill 223
bellwould writes The Toronto Sun is reporting that Bank of Canada executives are urging Star Trek fans to stop altering Wilfred Laurier's face on the Canadian $5 bill to look like Spock. Although not illegal to draw on the bills, a Bank of Canada spokesperson points out that the markings may reduce effectiveness of the security features or worse, the money may not be accepted.
Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah.
Her full quote is:
She says in a statement, “It is not illegal to write or make other markings on bank notes... However, there are important reasons why it should not be done. Writing on a bank note may interfere with the security features and reduces its lifespan. Markings on a note may also prevent it from being accepted in a transaction. Furthermore, the Bank of Canada feels that writing and markings on bank notes are inappropriate as they are a symbol of our country and a source of national pride.”
Guess she's asking "please." Not sure I see the harm.
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5, Funny)
As she is Canadian, I'm surprised she didn't start out flat apologizing for having to ask people to kindly stop Spock-ing the bills so that others can continue to enjoy using the bills in the future...
On the other hand, when Shatner dies, I'm sure they'll have a bill printed with his picture, so they probably just don't want an image of an American defacing their currency... And they're probably sorry about feeling this way...
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Not sure I see the harm.
Try to use a "Spocked" bill in a machine. There is a high probability that it will not work.
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5, Funny)
"Try to use a "Spocked" bill in a machine. It's highly illogical to think that it will work."
There I fixed that for you.
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5)
Try to use a "Spocked" bill in a machine. There is a high probability that it will not work.
Spock would've calculated the probability to 4 or 5 places...
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:4, Funny)
Never tell me the odds.
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5, Informative)
I've done a bit of system integration with bill acceptor machines, and they should be fine. They're not looking for visual spectrum stuff, or comparing a bitmap, they're checking for a finite number of specific features. Usually, it is 9 or 11 small spots that are each checked for one thing. None of them are the face visuals.
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5, Interesting)
I've done a bit of system integration with bill acceptor machines, and they should be fine. They're not looking for visual spectrum stuff, or comparing a bitmap, they're checking for a finite number of specific features. Usually, it is 9 or 11 small spots that are each checked for one thing. None of them are the face visuals.
Actually, if they're spocking the old $5 bills, it's probably not going to be accepted anyways as we've moved to the new polymer bills. While for a time the old bill acceptors wouldn't accept the new bills, the new bills have pretty much taken over.
Granted, not being an artist, I have to admit I'd probably keep that $5 bill. Being a paper one it's probably close to being cycled out naturally.
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You're funny, inflation happens under gold standard too. So does fractional reserve banking.
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oh, and boom-bust also happens under gold standard. Proven by thousands of years of history in the west and east. Proven by pre-fed USA too.
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:4, Funny)
"...Bank of Canada executives are urging.. "
Oh canada, listen to your financial betters! Stop an absolutely awesome currency-wide joke because they say so for no really good reason. Yes, THIS is how the world should be run, without humour of any sort.
"may reduce effectiveness of the security features or worse, the money may not be accepted."
Oh yes, be afraid Canada, VERY afraid. Authoritarians love to tell you how to act and when that fails attempt to bully and scare you into doing what they want - no matter how ridiculous they sound while doing so.
IOW: BoC executives should STFU.
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Really, if you're going to holler "Help, help, I'm being repressed!" over stuff like this, it's going to be hard to take you seriously when you actually have a point.
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I never said I was repressed - I am not even from Canada.
I was quite obviously parodying the impotent message from the self important executives.
Why do I have to explain this? Oh right....troll....
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PS: That was a monty python quote. I would not expect you to get that considering how far over your head my other post flew...
Illogical (Score:5, Funny)
This complaint is illogical. I estimate a 99.9732156% chance that it will be ignored.
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Never tell me the odds!!!
Oops...wrong franchise...
Re:Funniest headline I've seen all day (Score:5, Insightful)
Bank of Canada, meet the Streisand Effect
Alternate Bank of Canada Press Release (Score:5, Funny)
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The Bank of Canada wishes to inform Star Trek fans that while they may live long, they may not prosper if other parties refuse to accept defaced $5 bills.
Whoops, is that legal? In the U.S. you cannot decline payment made in cash (if you normally take cash). But it's also illegal to deface money.
But if it's not illegal to Spock a 5-spot in Canada that makes the bills legal currency still.
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This isn't entirely correct, you're not allowed to not take cash to settle a debt. If there's no debt, you're more than welcome to tell people to piss off with their bag of change.
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This isn't entirely correct, you're not allowed to not take cash to settle a debt. If there's no debt, you're more than welcome to tell people to piss off with their bag of change.
Actually there is no legal requirement to take cash, debt or no debt. You can refuse to accept cash if you want.
Re:Alternate Bank of Canada Press Release (Score:5, Insightful)
Good luck convincing a court that someone owes you money after you refused their cash.
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Pretty sure there have been court cases about this. If someone rolls up with a wheelbarrow full of $3000 in loose change, you can tell them to piss off without voiding the debt.
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You could not be more wrong, coins are legal tender too
Section 31 U.S.C. 5103: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
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Why would they owe you money? You never gave them the goods because you couldn't be sure their cash wasn't counterfeit. If anyone is going to have to convince a court, it's they who are going to have to argue that I did something illegal by refusing to accept their funny money.
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They would owe you money because the entire premise of this discussion is that they have a debt to you. A debt literally means they owe you money.
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Good luck convincing a court that someone owes you money after you refused their cash.
If Canada are anything like other commonwealth countries, then it will go something like this:
Plaintiff: Your honour, the tender offered by the defendant was defaced.
Judge: I see, please pay the plaintiff in non defaced currency.
In Australia you can refuse payment by cash, a lot of businesses dont have the facilities to process it (mainly online businesses). Only certain types of businesses are forced to accept cash (most do because cash is such a useful medium and it's the cheapest, fastest way of f
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such a tired myth (Score:3, Interesting)
First off, Canada != US, fellow American.
Second: people and businesses can limit the forms of payment they'll accept for practical reasons all the time. As in: no bills over a certain amount, or refusing payment in pennies. Coins CAN be legal tender, but no merchant or private party MUST accept a particular form of currency. Don't want to accept $1 bills, only $5 and $10? That's fine:
http://www.snopes.com/business... [snopes.com]
"Legal tender is the default method of payment assumed in contractual agreements inv
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As far as I know, this is only true prior to creating the debt. You can decide you'll only sell your widget for credit cards, in trade for tribbles or whatever payment method you decide on. But you can only do so BEFORE the sale.
After the sale (once the debt is created), you MUST accept legal tender to settle the debt when it is offered. If I sit down in a restaurant and eat a meal without any notice that I can't pay my bill in cash and then I want to pay in cash, they must take my cash.
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Per treasury.gov
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibi
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Coins are legal tender, but only up to a maximum number of coins depending on the denomination. The most you can use in one transaction is 100 (dimes or nickels).
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Right, they can refuse the sale ahead of time. There is no debt before the sale.
But once the debt exists, they cannot refuse to accept legal tender for its payment.
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And then i will write payment refused on the receipt and never pay you. If you press it in court, a judge is NOT going to like that you refused legal tender to settle the debt, regardless of form. You are right you can refuse, but then the person indebted to you can simply write the debt off leaving you little recourse.
And you would lose in court. There is no law requiring someone to accept legal tender in payment of a debt; and failure to do so does not absolve someone of liability for the debt.
Re:Alternate Bank of Canada Press Release (Score:5, Informative)
There is no law requiring someone to accept legal tender in payment of a debt; and failure to do so does not absolve someone of liability for the debt.
Yes there is - [cornell.edu]
U.C.C. – ARTICLE 3 – NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS , PART 6. DISCHARGE AND PAYMENT 3-603. TENDER OF PAYMENT.
(a) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the effect of tender is governed by principles of law applicable to tender of payment under a simple contract. (b) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amount of the tender, of the obligation of an indorser or accommodation party having a right of recourse with respect to the obligation to which the tender relates. (c) If tender of payment of an amount due on an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the obligation of the obligor to pay interest after the due date on the amount tendered is discharged. If presentment is required with respect to an instrument and the obligor is able and ready to pay on the due date at every place of payment stated in the instrument, the obligor is deemed to have made tender of payment on the due date to the person entitled to enforce the instrument.
31 US Code 5103 - Legal tender [cornell.edu] -
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.
If I owe you $2k and show up with 20 authentic $100 bills and you refuse them, I'm debt free.
Now, if you're selling a car(for example) for $2k and you don't want cash, you're free to refuse to sell me the car for my $2k cash. But you're not allowed to hold me hostage if you provide me services before payment and I offer to pay by cash.
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You talk out of your ass. Look up relevant cases before spewing in ignorance, two decades ago even the IRS was bitch slapped after refusing trucker who paid in pennies. Refusing legal tender puts you in a very bad position in a court of law.
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While it is interesting to suppose what it would be like if that were to work, in reality it would not:
In State v. Carroll, 1997 WL 118064 (Ohio App. 4 Dist.), the Court upheld the municipal court's refusal to accept the pennies. The plaintiff argued that under 31 U.S.C.A. ' 5103, United States coins are legal tender "for all debts, public charges taxes and dues," and for that reason the city was required to accept the pennies as payment of the fine. Without pointing to any case law, the Court simply conclu
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Actually there is no legal requirement to take cash, debt or no debt. You can refuse to accept cash if you want.
Actually, there is [treasury.gov], sort of. You can refuse to accept cash: however, they are valid legal payment for the debt, so if you refuse the payment, you are either de facto implying the debt no longer exists (because you're not accepting repayment for it), or you're breaking the law by refusing legal payment. You cannot refuse repayment in cash and then claim the debt still exists. IANAL, so I'm sure there are subtleties involved with, for e.g., contracts (i.e. you agree to give them 10 widgets later in exchange f
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Actually there is no legal requirement to take cash, debt or no debt. You can refuse to accept cash if you want.
Actually, there is [treasury.gov], sort of. You can refuse to accept cash: however, they are valid legal payment for the debt, so if you refuse the payment, you are either de facto implying the debt no longer exists (because you're not accepting repayment for it), or you're breaking the law by refusing legal payment. You cannot refuse repayment in cash and then claim the debt still exists. IANAL, so I'm sure there are subtleties involved with, for e.g., contracts (i.e. you agree to give them 10 widgets later in exchange for 5 doohickeys now, offering cash instead would be a violation of the contract), but generally, creditors must accept cash in repayment of debts.
=
Per the web site you referenced:
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus
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Disclaimer first, this is US centric, though it 'should' work in many countries.
So absent a state law failure to accept cash in no way eliminates a debt.
Actually, it kind of does. Work out the logic and realize that not all businesses are creditors.
Take two restaurants.
1. Fast food joint. You place your order, they tell you a total, and you pay before they give you your food. NOT a creditor, if they don't want to take cash they don't have to.
2. Sit down traditional restaurant where the bill comes AFTER your meal. They're thus a creditor because they extend you credit(your
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Disclaimer first, this is US centric, though it 'should' work in many countries.
So absent a state law failure to accept cash in no way eliminates a debt.
Actually, it kind of does. Work out the logic and realize that not all businesses are creditors.
You're take is interesting, though wrong. Being a creditor has no bearing on the what you must accept in payment; in fact it's pretty clear no one is required to accept cash. Why don't you try it, go to court, and report back?
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Sure - I'll just quote UCC Article 3, Negotiable Instruments, part 6. Discharge and payment. [cornell.edu]
(a) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument, the effect of tender is governed by principles of law applicable to tender of payment under a simple contract.
(b) If tender of payment of an obligation to pay an instrument is made to a person entitled to enforce the instrument and the tender is refused, there is discharge, to the extent of the amoun
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My point is some people seem to believe that if a business refuses to accept your cash in payment you are discharged of the obligation to pay; which is not the case.
Again, I'll clarify a bit: I'm not saying a business can't refuse cash. It CAN in 'most' cases. The ONLY time it's obligated to accept cash is when you actually OWE them money. My common example would be the sit-down restaurant. The meal has been delivered and consumed, the debt created.
Then, per 31 USC 5103, US currency is legal tender for that debt. While UCC article 3 might not apply(I've seen judges contort more to make something applicable), you've still made a valid offer to pay.
This can be modi
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Not only that there are in fact precedents [tennessee.edu] indicating that the courts will have no problem declaring you a jackass for trying to use pennies, and uphold your debt regardless of your shenanigans.
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The fix is to tender the bills in a non-assholish way. IE reasonably large bills, not defaced or origamied.
You show up with 7 'clean' 20 bills to pay a $128 bill, you should be good.
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In the U.S. you cannot decline payment made in cash (if you normally take cash).
Sure you can, if you haven't delivered the goods. Notice the reference to "all debts"? If a debt doesn't exist, you have every right to demand pork bellies before you hand over the merchandise.
OTOH, if the restaurant cashier doesn't want to take your bill in cash after your meal, you can tell them to take it or leave it.
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In the U.S. you cannot decline payment made in cash (if you normally take cash).
Sure you can, if you haven't delivered the goods. Notice the reference to "all debts"? If a debt doesn't exist, you have every right to demand pork bellies before you hand over the merchandise.
OTOH, if the restaurant cashier doesn't want to take your bill in cash after your meal, you can tell them to take it or leave it.
Uh no. There is no legal requirement for an individual or business to accept cash. If they refuse cash payment and you walk out with out paying they can file a theft complaint. Just because a note is legal tender does not mean it must be accepted for payment.
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Do you have a citation on how the courts handle a reasonable attempt to pay in cash? IE bills of reasonable denomination that have not been defaced or altered?
Okay, they don't have to accept $100 worth of pennies or $10k worth of $1 bills. What about 5 $20 bills or 100 $100s*?
*$100 being the highest denominator in common circulation
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Just to be clear: Is this your opinion, or do any courts share your view on the matter?
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Legal tender: when i began my search, i typed in legal tender and the first result was this
"legal tender
noun
coins or banknotes that must be accepted if offered in payment of a debt."
The root meaning of the words themselves are Lawful OFFER. It seems to me that its not just my opinion? Care to counter?
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they can file a complaint, but ouu would win in court. If you refuse cash for a debt, then person who owes you the debt can legally tell you he considers the matter settled. No court is going ot look favorably on you if you dont take cash for a debt.
Except there is no requirement to accept cash and you'd still wind up losing and paying up. For some reason people think "Legal Tender" = "Must Accept" when it does not.
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31 USC 5103 [cornell.edu] - Legal Tender and UCC 3-603 [cornell.edu] Tender of payment disagree.
Keep in mind the difference between a sale and a debt. If you OWE a company money, they must accept cash to settle it. If you're PRE-PAYING, ie giving them payment before the good is provided or service rendered, then they don't have to accept cash to provide the service.
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Can you explain what happens if a restaurant comes up with a bill, and a reasonable attempt to pay the bill in full is made with cash, which the restaurant refuses? By reasonable, I mean in appropriate denominations with no particular reason to suspect fraud and which pass reasonable anti-fraud validation (so sufficient defacement is unreasonable).
I really have a hard time believing the claim that you will be charged with theft in this scenario. Can you cite an example?
I'm not trained in law but surely yo
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You'd have a hard time claiming theft if a reasonable attempt to pay was made.
Not really. When you go to a store, the seller has no obligation to sell you anything. When you attempt to purchase a good, at that point you are offering an exchange with the vendor; they can lower the price, raise it, give the item away, or even refuse to sell you the item at all (all of which have happened in the real world). Until you and the seller come to terms and exchange currency for the good, you do not have legal posession of it.
Im sure there is a much more accurate legal explanation for this,
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Not really. When you go to a store, the seller has no obligation to sell you anything.
The context, in this case, is a sit-down restaurant. The meal has already been served and consumed. You're not getting it back. The eater has incurred a debt with the restaurant for the price of the meal.
They have to accept cash at that point. A gas station or McDonalds would be free to keep their product and refuse the cash, because the exchange hasn't happened yet.
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ITT: Not-lawyers discuss not-law.
Now, Im not a lawyer, either, but I am familiar with Treasury.gov's stance, and with at least 1 court case where the court held that you dont have to accept payment in pennies.
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18 US Code 333 - Mutilation of national bank obligations: [cornell.edu]
Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
It'
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Can you spot me a Spock? I need a few grams of weed.
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5 loonies = 1 Spock? Kewl!
Spock is an odd choice (Score:4, Funny)
Remembering Nimoy this way is illogical. (Score:5, Informative)
His family has requested that donations be made in his memory to one of the following charities
Everychild Foundation http://everychildfoundation.or... [everychildfoundation.org]
P.O. Box 1808
Pacific Palisades, CA 90272
Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD) Foundation http://www.copdfoundation.org/ [copdfoundation.org]
20 F Street NW, Suite 200-A
Washington, D.C. 20001
Beit T’Shuvah Treatment Center http://www.beittshuvah.org/tre... [beittshuvah.org]
8831 Venice Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90034
Bay-Nimoy Early Childhood Center at Temple Israel of Hollywood http://www.tiohnurseryschool.o... [tiohnurseryschool.org]
7300 Hollywood Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90046
Source: http://www.startrek.com/articl... [startrek.com]
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Beit Tâ(TM)Shuvah Treatment Center
Is that a relative of T'Pol? I guess funding the Vulcan economy is only logical.
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Spocking 5$ bills has been a thing for a long time now up here in Canada. It's just seeing a spike due to the recent sad news.
It's not like this is some specific tribute thing.
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Man, I have got to start reading the news letter more often.
Here I've been going around with un-Spocked bills like a n00b.
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Why not run with it? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not issue commemorative $5 notes? Commemorative coins are issued in the US, although actors aren't usually on them. There is, AFAIK, no commemorative US or Canadian note like that. Stamps are more liberal in that regard. I'm sure a lot of conservatives would hate it, say it's "undignified", blah, blah... It's Canada so they might even have to get permission from the Queen; but if they don't, then why not innovate? Come on Canada. You're so cool in many other ways. Make it happen.
Re:Why not run with it? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I don't think we've ever had a commemorative bill circulating that wasn't part of an official set (like 1967). Coins, sure, they have a new design all the time, but not bills.
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Probably because all of the automatic bill-verification stuff would fail if the design is completely different.
Coins don't have this issue because they can be recognized by size and weight.
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British paper money currently features (£5-10-20-50) Elizabeth Fry (prison reformer), Charles Darwin, Adam Smith (philosopher) and James Watt and Matthew Boulton (engineers), so there shouldn't be a problem from the queen. But I think people tend to have been dead for a while.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B... [wikipedia.org]
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Because you need standardized bills that change infrequently to minimize hassles with automatic validators. The validation steps for coins don't require imaging their surface.
Revisionist history? (Score:2)
I read this story [bbc.com] on the BBC site yesterday, and the title of the story was 'Spocking' not illegal, Canada Says at the time. It even still appears on Google search with that title. But now the headline has been changed to Bank spokesman says writing on bills "inappropriate".
Some shiny-shoed people getting a bit upset and influencing the media?
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Given that I never heard of "Spocking" before these articles, and now that I have heard of it wished I was Canadian and had a ready supply of $5 bills, I wondered if their intent wasn't contrary to the stated purpose.
I will have to settle on "Bill Murray"ing US $5 bills for now.
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or go with "daniel day lewis-ing' and you don't have to do anything!
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If you were Canadian, you would have been seeing Spock on the $5 for years and years. Even the older [cdnpapermoney.com] bills [cdnpapermoney.com] with different portraits were suitable for being "Spocked".
Not only that, you would know how to fold two $1 bills so that "Banque du Canada - Bank of Canada" changed into a request to do something impolite with a banana.
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I wanted to do some john belushi'ing of my money, but I wasn't sure if I should use pollen or dark sunglasses.
(yeah, right; 'why not both?')
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Some shiny-shoed people getting a bit upset and influencing the media?
Never trust a man in clean shoes. (Also never trust a man in a wheelchair with dirty shoes.)
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They'll stop defacing when govt stops devaluing (Score:2)
silly reasons not to (Score:5, Insightful)
I have an old $5 in my wallet, will be fun to do. The enjoyment I get out of doing this is easily worth $5. ... putting maple syrup on my bacon.
The bank listed "important reasons". I call BS on each one.
- Reduced lifespan, so what? It is being replaced anyway.
- It might be rejected in a transaction. Lame, someone else will take it. Its only $5
- Source of national pride. Really? My guess is half of Canadians have never heard of him or know he was the PM.
Checked my wallet, there is an old $5, jackpot! I am feeling more Canadian pride in doing this on a Canadian bill then
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- Reduced lifespan, so what? It is being replaced anyway.
Do you replace your car every time you use it? It is going to be replaced anyway, eventually. By reducing lifespan one is increasing the costs of to the government and wasting my taxes.
It might be rejected in a transaction. Lame, someone else will take it. Its only $5
If it is my last cash and the machine will not accept it that I would quite perturbed.
Source of national pride.
Canadian money has national leaders on it not actors.
Negative Spin, Positive Spin (Score:5, Interesting)
Other articles spin it the other way.
'Spocking' Laurier on $5 not illegal, says Bank of Canada
http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/sp... [www.cbc.ca]
Hey Canada: Stop "verbing" proper nouns! (Score:2)
Re:Hey Canada: Stop "verbing" proper nouns! (Score:5, Funny)
Bushificationism of verbicates will continue to continuify. If you are bothertized by it, then please seekify some therapification.
- Thankitize You, The Managementors
oblig (Score:2)
Cue Streisand effect.
Subject misses the point (Score:3)
They are Canadian, the Bank of Canada is (politely) asking people to stop "Spocking" their Canadian five dollar bank notes ("bills").
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Looks fit to be Neelixed or Quarked though.