Analysis: People Who Use Firefox Or Chrome Make Better Employees 127
HughPickens.com writes: In the world of Big Data, everything means something. Now Joe Pinsker reports that Cornerstone OnDemand, a company that sells software that helps employers recruit and retain workers, has found after analyzing data on about 50,000 people who took its 45-minute online job assessment, that people who took the test on a non-default browser, such as Firefox or Chrome, ended up staying at their jobs about 15 percent longer than those who stuck with Safari or Internet Explorer. They also tended to perform better on the job as well. Chief Analytics Officer Michael Housman offered an explanation for the results in an interview with Freakonomics Radio: "I think that the fact that you took the time to install Firefox on your computer shows us something about you. It shows that you're someone who is an informed consumer," says Housman. "You've made an active choice to do something that wasn't default." But why would a company care about something as seemingly trivial as the browser a candidate chooses to use? "Call centers are estimated to suffer from a turnover rate of about 45 percent annually (PDF), and it can cost thousands of dollars to hire new employees," says Pinsker. "Because of that, companies are eager to find any proxy for talent and dedication that they can."
Right for the job (Score:1)
If safari works and is right for the job, why change?
I think I've had to open chrome only a handful of times and that was a Java issue.
Re: (Score:2)
If safari works and is right for the job, why change? I think I've had to open chrome only a handful of times and that was a Java issue.
Kudos. Safari is becoming the new IE in terms of compatibility, web standards, and for workarounds required due flaws / bugs / oddities / whathaveyou. So by using Safari, like the IE users before you, you are helping employ an untold number of web developers. Using inferior products is actually good for the global economy.
And when the "default" is the preferred option? (Score:2, Interesting)
Well... up to a point. I can follow the logical connection that would suggest that people who act as informed consumers are likely to make better employees.
However, I've recently switched back to Internet Explorer after more than a decade with Firefox and a short experiment with Chrome. I did so because I find that comparing across the latest versions of all three, IE was my favourite in terms of performance and user-experience. So I made a reasonably informed decision to use it.
Making practical use of data
Re:And when the "default" is the preferred option? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Google adblock? IE is now supported too and have it installed on my machine
Re: (Score:2)
>The biggest downfall is that IE doesn't have great adblocking.
Tracking protection lists do a pretty good job of it for me.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd buy switched to opera or something but switch back to IE? You'd have to be a sadist
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah pretty much. I was using FF since forever. Now I'm like, "FF why are you such crap?"
So I recently switched over to IE, which offers more stability, a better UI, and equivalent or better performance.
Re: (Score:2)
A better UI??? IE has the worst UI of any browser out there, completely non-customizable, URLbar stupidly crammed in next to the tabs, and its dev tools are appalling.
Re:And when the "default" is the preferred option? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:And when the "default" is the preferred option? (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't matter: they're looking at the marginals. Switching to a non-default almost certainly means you have some level of competence. People using the default will contain a mixture of informed and uninformed people, and about 1/3 of the density of informed people as random selection (assuming informed people are split 3 ways between firefox/chrome/default).
If you have *no* other information, you will get better employees on average if you choose the non-default browser users.
If you've got some way of assessing competence, then you're no longer looking at the marginal distribution and so browser choice provides no further information over employee competence.
Or, looking at it another way, browser use is competence+noise. You can infer competence up to the noise by looking at the browser. However if you know their competence, then all browser use tells you is useless information about the noise.
Re: (Score:3)
Making practical use of data like this would be more justifiable if there was a clear case that the "default" option was inferior (which in fairness, IE has sometimes been previously).
No, it's justifiable by the fact that people who used a non-default browser stayed 15% longer. It doesn't matter if there are false positives (people who used Firefox installed by someone else) or false negatives (people who, like you, made an effort to choose and chose IE). On average, choosing someone who used Firefox or Chrome gets you an employee who stays15% longer (and "performed better" although I don't know the metric or methodology they used to determine that), and if that's what you want, you shou
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
So... you are still using the same old default operating system?
Re: (Score:2)
It boils down to two simple facts:
1. The default option is a mix of informed choice and lazy inertia.
2. The non-default options are pure informed choice.
The "informed choice" component of the former blunts the contrast, but doesn't eliminate it.
Re: (Score:2)
If they were able to distinguish those who made a conscious decision to use IE from those who did not, I'm sure there would probably be a similar correlation to the former as there is amongst those who consciously choose an alternative. Unfortunately, it's much harder to separate that class of IE user from the more numerous default users, and so they are not included in the analysis.
Re: (Score:3)
According to that graph, 5% more IE users are likely to quit compared to FF users. So hire only FF users to save money?
Re: (Score:2)
That might work until the word gets around that your call center only hires those that use FF or other non-default browser.
And, yes, the word does get around if it's major employer and it's a consistent policy. There was an AOL support call center in Albuquerque while I was there in the 90s, and word about the right things to say when interviewing there was pretty quickly available.
Why are they talking about call center turn over? (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason call center turn over is so huge is because the job sucks. Low pay, tough hours, no control over what you do, little chance for success, and career means becoming a manager who has no training and needs to explain to his/her bosses why the peons are leaving in droves.
The summary shows the problem with big data: it's not the data that counts, it's what you do with it. And no algorithm in the world can make you make good decisions.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The summary shows the problem with big data: it's not the data that counts, it's what you do with it. And no algorithm in the world can make you make good decisions.
So the problem with pens is that no writing tool in the world can make you a good writer?
Re: (Score:3)
The summary shows the problem with big data: it's not the data that counts, it's what you do with it. And no algorithm in the world can make you make good decisions.
So the problem with pens is that no writing tool in the world can make you a good writer?
You had me for a second, but this is not a valid analogy. The valid analogy would require someone to say that their analysis has found the pen that will make you a good writer.
Re: (Score:2)
The summary shows the problem with big data: it's not the data that counts, it's what you do with it. And no algorithm in the world can make you make good decisions.
So the problem with pens is that no writing tool in the world can make you a good writer?
You had me for a second, but this is not a valid analogy. The valid analogy would require someone to say that their analysis has found the pen that will make you a good writer.
Not quite, The analysis demonstrated that if you've gone a little bit out of your way to get a certain type of pen, you're more likely to be a good writer.
Re: Why are they talking about call center turn ov (Score:3)
Writers don't look for magic pens to make them good writers. Managers seem to look for magic tools (like big data) to make them good managers.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"Low pay, tough hours,"
Apparently they spent half your pay trying to hire people. They should try not being obnoxious managers and paying a bit more or improving perks. I worked in a call centre, bad management was the reason I left. Never again.
How about Linux? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Aside from that, it seems likely studies such as this will be (and probably already are) used to make decisions the facts are unqualified to support.
"Yes it true. According to our studies, people hired on Thursday will take more crap than your average employee."
Re: (Score:3)
"Yes it true. According to our studies, people hired on Thursday will take more crap than your average employee."
Except there is no reasonably way to imagine that's the case. Whereas if in some weird-ass world you have no information on which to base hiring decisions except for browser choice, you'll be better on average with non-default browser users.
browser use = competence + noise
Incompetent always use the default, competent people don't always. Therefore if you have only browser use, you can infer compe
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What if we use them all? (Score:5, Insightful)
I actually use all four of those browsers. I use Chrome for Google Docs, Firefox for high performance JavaScript applications and Safari for most everything else. Occasionally, I'm forced to boot Windows in a VM and use IE because of some idiots who tailored their legacy web app specifically for IE.
I've tried using just one, but each browser has or has had too many deal-breaker bugs. Actually, I used to use Firefox for everything, but there were too many problems with it, so I switched to Safari. It's improved a lot since then, but it doesn't integrate that well with Mac OS X or Google Docs, so I can't use it for everything. One reason I tend to avoid Chrome is that the developers are assholes. When I report bugs, they just argue with me and tell me I'm wrong. I actually formally studied HCI and cognitive engineering, so unlike those assholes, I know what I'm talking about.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
If you've studied cognitive engineering, you should know by now that labeling a person an "asshole" is the best way to get them to seriously want to do your bidding.
Re: (Score:2)
Fair enough.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:1)
No Choice? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Judging a book by its cover is stupid, in short. Judging an employee by browser is FUCKING STUPID. Making hiring decisions in ANY part on which browser OR which OS he or she uses is BEYOND GODDAMNED FUCKING RETARDED.
If you have more candidates than you can interview, you need to filter them somehow. And if a criteria such as browser usage is shown to be effective, why not use it ? We don't need causation, only correlation. In this phase all you have are arbitrary criteria, so there is no way you can be fair unless you are using random selection.
BTW, I believe that many business decisions including hiring would benefit from a bit of randomness but it's another story.
Re: (Score:2)
No doubt, if they managed to instead get accurate numbers that removed inaccuracies and noise and narrowed down on a more accurate reading, I expect the variance would be more than that 15%.
Of course, it could also be less, don't know for sure till you figure that superior study out, but for the d
So if you're looking for a job... (Score:2)
Then give me a raise, Jerry!! (Score:2)
I'm sick of not being respected around here for my browser choice!
Further analysis reveals (Score:1)
Safari users spend too much time seeking the approval of others
Internet explorer users like to stroll in freeway traffic
Opera users are entertained by shiny objects
Lynx users are the most productive of the lot
What if... (Score:2)
or maybe... (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I do think it's still entirely possible for some other factor like this to be relevant, well worth considering, or at least keeping in mind.
I feel like there's truth to both.
Causality or coincidence (Score:2)
.
You need to be very careful when sifting through data that you are seeing actual causality, and not just a coincidence that has occurred.
Wait... (Score:2)
....forgive me, but if we're talking about EMPLOYEES installing their own software on company equipment, I think I have a better idea on how to make the workplace more efficient. It has nothing to do with with browser choice, either.
Re: (Score:1)
....forgive me, but if we're talking about EMPLOYEES installing their own software on company equipment, I think I have a better idea on how to make the workplace more efficient. It has nothing to do with with browser choice, either.
Yeah, sack the IT people who are still insisting on insecure-by-default, non-standard, closed source browsers. :-)
IE and Safari users know enough to leave crappy jo (Score:2)
It can be interpreted other way too (Score:1)
"I think that the fact that you took the time to install Firefox on your computer shows us something about you. It shows that you're someone who is an informed consumer," says Housman.
Or it says that you are an arrogant shithead who doesn't want to use the tools that the company provides.
Imagine if you were assigned a screwdriver to assemble an enclosure. You brought in your own screwdriver because "it has better handle". However it would have a Philips head instead of Pozidriv. Yeah, it would do the job, but the project actually uses Pozidriv screws. But hey, I'm so informed about what kind of handle gives a good grip.
Re: (Score:2)
"Or it says that you are an arrogant shithead who doesn't want to use the tools that the company provides."
That can go either way. As-provided end user computing stuff stinks. I know, I help provide it and have to design everything to the lowest common denominator. Thankfully the place I'm at no longer has a hard dependency for all users on IE 6, but stuff like that exists. You also need to design the "for the masses" stuff in such a way that they can't mess it up too badly, to reduce help desk calls. I wou
Wait, call centers? (Score:4, Funny)
IE users are better-informed? (Score:1)
Or else they can't figure out how to click on an ' INSTALL ' icon
THIS! (Score:1)
Yes, this!
They install FF or Chrome and troll /. all day instead of getting out as fast as they can. :)
Ironically... (Score:2)
Many document submission sites of the US Federal Government not only require you to use Windows but also require you to use Internet Explorer. If that isn't bad enough, some require you to fill out forms using this godawful IBM/Lotus form editor.
Is Cornerstone OnDemand full of racists? (Score:3)
If a group, race or gender 'x' can be statistically shown to be more 'y' or less 'z' then it is ok to use generalities about a group to make judgments about individuals?
This is very same error in judgment routinely used by racists and crackpots to justify all kinds of craziness.
Re: (Score:2)
Depends on how you're using it. We all make at least tentative assumptions based on sex, skin color, boob display, whatever. Just remember that generalizations don't apply well to individuals.
Have all the obvious proxies failed? (Score:1)
Correlation does not imply causation! (Score:3)
Oddly enough people on slashdot harp on about "correlation is not causation" pretty much all the time, except oddly this thread where it's a classic example, much better, in fact than all the times it does come up.
Use of alternative broswers is correlated with doing good work, because BOTH are correlated with being competent.
But correlation ISN'T causation and in this case using an alternative browser does NOT cause good work to be done. Neither does doing good work CAUSE you to use an alternative browser.
Example: competent person decides based on relative merits to use default browser.
In other news ..... (Score:2)
In other news, job candidates who fill out applications online are more likely to be computer literate than those who fill them out on paper.
What about others? (Score:2)
SeaMonkey, Lynx, etc.? :P
we knew this already (Score:2)
Of course we knew already for years that IE users are dumbest [calcudoku.org].
All of this has to be rewritten once Microsoft drops the IE brand [slashdot.org]...
uhhh.... (Score:2)
How is chrome not a default-browser these days or firefox? both have their own OSses, chrome is the default browser of Android now, and both are so much as the default browser in most Linux distributions...
Also how can they absolutely make sure it's about the browser, as in some companies the browser is set for you (for instance it is set to chrome instead of IE)..
And how does one make you a better employee if you use Chrome or Firefox if IE or Safari is just as good... Also why is it that a lot of webdev's
Both sides of the field (Score:1)
45% turnover rate IS the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
If an industry has a 45% turnover rate, as is cited for call centers, the problem is not the "talent and dedication" of the employees. The problem is that the job is structured in such a way that it is mind numbing, repetitive, and unsatisfying to the workers. And BTW, if you really want workers who can perform under such conditions, you are NOT looking for someone who wants control over their circumstances as indicated by the selection of a non-default browser.
Re:45% turnover rate IS the problem (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, the "proxy for talent and dedication" would be "not working in a call center".
Re: (Score:2)
My thoughts exactly!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey there are lots of talented and dedicated people who end up settling for shitty jobs - we aren't all privileged hipsters with flawless resumes living in big US coastal cities with hot startup scenes.
Re: (Score:1)
Almost got fired from a call center for being too helpful to customers. Had to learn to turn off my brain when I clocked it and ignore the absolute stupidity of those in charge of me. There were days where I literally do not know what happened most of the day since I was on autopilot. When I moved to a helpdesk role in the company, it was a breath of fresh air comparatively. The attitude of the people in the helpdesk totally changed once I was out and they couldn't get enough of me because I was the only on
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Privileged hipster? Hey, I did my time at McDonald's so I know a shitty job when I see one. But it got me through college and college got me a reasonable job and that got me started on a career. I'm not in a big city, not (right) on a coast, and definitely not at a start up.
With all of that said, call center jobs are the sixth level of hell, and I would not recommend to my worst enemy taking that path. "Abandon hope all ye who enter here."
Re: (Score:2)
I spent a summer at McDonald's too, and still have a scar to show for it. These days however it seems like the college kids aren't going for the shitty summer jobs anymore. I rarely see anyone remotely resembling a high school or college kid at fast food places, and when I do see someone that might fit the profile they have difficulty managing how to count out change so they probably aren't in college.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hey there are lots of talented and dedicated people who end up settling for shitty jobs - we aren't all privileged hipsters with flawless resumes living in big US coastal cities with hot startup scenes.
Most everybody ends up settling for shitty jobs, even in the big US coastal cities with hot startup scenes and flawless resumes. Thing is, in those big US coastal cities, you get some experience at a shitty job to put on your resume and get a better job fairly quick. In fly over states, you're stuck with the shitty job. I was dedicated enough to move out of those places and to civilization, I recommend others do too.
Re:45% turnover rate IS the problem (Score:5, Interesting)
However there is a skill, in finding empowerment even in mind numbing jobs. Installing Chrome or Firefox, is usually one way, as it is one of those things that are normally "officially" against the rules, but you do it anyways, because you know your browsing experience will be a little bit safer. Knowing when to bend/break the rules, and when follow them is an important skill.
I see too many people who just suffer their job and their performance hinders, because they so cautious on following the rules, that they cannot break out of the hum-drum activity. I also see people get fired for just going too gung ho and broke the rules just because they didn't like them.
But there is a line, It is one thing to use a different internet browser, then to say use a different email client.
Re: (Score:3)
Installing Chrome or Firefox, is usually one way, as it is one of those things that are normally "officially" against the rules, but you do it anyways, because you know your browsing experience will be a little bit safer.
Really? Most of the time when I catch someone using an unauthorized software it's to get around security features like a white listed proxy.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is that the job is structured in such a way that it is mind numbing, repetitive, and unsatisfying to the workers.
That is inherent to all call center jobs. Phone based customer service jobs suck. The Internet has made the situation worse, since non-stupid customers can now use email or chat, so the phone reps are dealing with nearly 100% idiots. If you have some magic fix for this situation, I would love to hear it.
And BTW, if you really want workers who can perform under such conditions, you are NOT looking for someone who wants control over their circumstances as indicated by the selection of a non-default browser.
The actual data says otherwise.
Re: (Score:2)
The options are limited but getting rid of the boiler room environment and doing away with the burn 'em and churn 'em productivity metrics would help a lot. The losses of productivity would probably be paid for in better customer satisfaction and lower training costs.
Re: (Score:2)
The options are limited but getting rid of the boiler room environment and doing away with the burn 'em and churn 'em productivity metrics would help a lot.
My experience is that customer service reps don't hate their environment or their co-workers. They hate dealing with customers. Most of them accept the job as a last resort, and almost no one expects to make a career out of it. It is just something to pay the bills until a decent job comes along.
Even moving your call center to India doesn't help much. Indians hate doing phone support as well, and they also quit when a better job is available. The only advantage there is a deeper pool of replacements.
Th
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
There seems to be a movement in industry to *make* jobs mind numbing, repetitive and unsatisfying. Currently we're going through the Lean "Standardized Work" process, which in itself isn't necessarily bad, but the stated goal of management in this case is to use the data to reduce jobs to the simplest, most repetitive tasks possible. [1] This goes along with the whole "replace admins with 'best shore' operators" mentality, which at its root has the belief that in IT jobs there is no actual thinking invol
Re: (Score:2)
If an industry has a 45% turnover rate, as is cited for call centers, the problem is not the "talent and dedication" of the employees. The problem is that the job is structured in such a way that it is mind numbing, repetitive, and unsatisfying to the workers. And BTW, if you really want workers who can perform under such conditions, you are NOT looking for someone who wants control over their circumstances as indicated by the selection of a non-default browser.
Having worked in a call centre and knowing many others who have. It isn't the repetition or mind numbingness that causes dissatisfaction. Its the constant abuse from unreasonable callers that makes the job so unpalatable that you'd rather work in a real cesspool. It stems from the fact that most people are ignorant, arrogant, unreasonable and uneducated arseholes that are only ever constrained by the fact that someone will punch them for being such an arse to their face. When given a safe distance, they're
Re: (Score:2)
Re:No doubt: (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're going to try a hackneyed troll like this, kid, learn to be a little more subtle. You're like a guy running naked through a shopping mall, screaming "I'm a troll, I'm a troll! Please give me some attention! Pleeeeease!!!"
Re: (Score:2)
If you're going to try a hackneyed troll like this, kid, learn to be a little more subtle. You're like a guy running naked through a shopping mall, screaming "I'm a troll, I'm a troll! Please give me some attention! Pleeeeease!!!"
I say that guy. Trust me, he should have kept his clothes on, because when I looked, there was nothing to see there :-)