Security Oversights and Complacency Set the Stage For Killers' Escape 80
HughPickens.com writes: The NY Times reports that although no single lapse or mistake in security enabled two killers to break out of the Clinton Correctional Facility two weeks ago, it is now clear that an array of oversights, years in the making, set the stage for the prison break and for the ensuing manhunt. According to the Times, a sense of complacency had taken hold that in some ways might have been understandable: "There had not been an escape from the 170-year-old prison in decades, and officials say no one had ever broken out of the maximum-security section. ... 'As the months go by, years go by, things get less strict,' says [retired corrections officer] Keith Provost. ... [U]nlike many prisons and jails across the country, there are no video cameras on the cellblocks at the Clinton facility that might have detected suspicious activity." And although prison rules forbid putting sheets across cell bars to obstruct viewing, in practice, officers say, inmates frequently were allowed to hang sheets for lengthy periods. Officials say there is a good chance that the two men had been at work on their plan for weeks, maybe months. Night after night, the authorities have come to believe, the two men stuffed their beds with crude dummies, slipped out of holes they had cut in the back of their cells and climbed down five stories using the piping along the walls. They then set to work inside the tunnels under the prison, spending hours preparing their path of escape before returning to their cells unobserved.
No contemporary prison break has reminded me so much of the 1962 breakout from Alcatraz (theories on survival aside).
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Good call, but a pity that it was only the escape part and didn't expose massive high level corruption and abuse as well. I'm OK with Andy getting away, but not those two.
Re:Shawshank Redemption (Score:4, Insightful)
a pity that it was only the escape part and didn't expose massive high level corruption and abuse as well.
The corruption and abuse in the prison system, and the collusion between the prison industry, the unions, and the police, to keep it going, does not need to be "exposed" because it is done openly, and generally with the support of the public. Any attempt to fix the prisons needs to start with a massive reduction in the number of people incarcerated. Per capita, America imprisons far more than other countries, and far more than even authoritarian countries such as China and Russia.
Before election day, you will see ads, and receive mailers, from politicians promising to "get tough on crime", along with endorsements by the police chief, and the police union. Please vote for someone else.
List of countries by incarceration rate [wikipedia.org]
Re:Shawshank Redemption (Score:4, Interesting)
The corruption and abuse in the prison system, and the collusion between the prison industry, the unions, and the police, to keep it going, does not need to be "exposed" because it is done openly, and generally with the support of the public. Any attempt to fix the prisons needs to start with a massive reduction in the number of people incarcerated. Per capita, America imprisons far more than other countries, and far more than even authoritarian countries such as China and Russia.
If you add the number of forced "stays" at mental health hospitals in other countries, the numbers are substantially equalized. This is, of course, damning on its own, as the US has defaulted to using prisons and jails to incarcerate the mentally ill. This is not ideal from a humane or a fiscal point of view.
Another counter argument is that crime rates have dramatically and universally fallen across the US during the same time period that rates of incarceration have risen.
Before election day, you will see ads, and receive mailers, from politicians promising to "get tough on crime", along with endorsements by the police chief, and the police union. Please vote for someone else.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Pretty much every organization, and certainly every union out there from the Piano Tuners 421 to the police, are going to endorse somebody. Having lived in Chicago--well-known as a union town--for several years in the 00's, and around the country, I don't recall anything like the level of organization you are claiming. I've certainly never received a mailer from a police union, nor do I think I've ever seen an ad run by the union.
Re: Shawshank Redemption (Score:1)
Forced psychiatric institutionalization decreased substantially in all industrialized countries in the last few decades of the 20th century.
What you're describing is the Penrose Hypothesis. But the data doesn't support your particular assertion.
As for increased incarceration causing the decreased crying rate? Crime began falling before incarceration rates skyrocketed. And crime fell in all American jurisdictions, even those where the incarceration rates didn't increase. Crime also fell in all industrialized
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I believe its also been proven through a thorough meta-study that the lead in fuel was causing an increase in violent crime.
Yes, it has. And that's why they took it out.
Of course, you can still find people who are pissed that they did.
Re: Shawshank Redemption (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Won't someone think of the valve seats?? ;)
At least they were thinking of the spark plugs.
Re: (Score:3)
crime rates have dramatically and universally fallen across the US during the same time period that rates of incarceration have risen.
1. Crime rates have fallen dramatically in other countries as well.
2. Crime rates fell just as much in states that didn't massively increase prison populations, as in states that did.
Re: (Score:2)
The primary difference between the USA and other developed countries is the length of the prison sentences. As for forced mental hospital stays I don't think that comes even close to covering the difference. I am struggling to find any authoritative numbers for forced mental health stays in Australia but if we assume that all the available beds in our health mental health system are used for forced stays then that is 4625 beds as a maximum. https://mhsa.aihw.gov.au/resou... [aihw.gov.au]
Our criminal incarceration rate
Re: (Score:1)
I thought the incarceration rate in Australia was 100%.
Re: (Score:2)
I thought the incarceration rate in Australia was 100%.
That word doesn't mean what you think it means.
Re: (Score:2)
While we did have a mandatory life sentence for cannabis cultivation in QLD (don't laugh, it's only 10 years for killing a cop, and one guy got life for being in possession of cannabis seeds that "sprouted" while in the evidence locker) - the law was revoked a while back. Meanwhile in the US there is at least one guy serving 13 years for possession of 2 joints - he's not eligible for parole until he's served 10 years. (here in Oz it's called a "spent conviction" after 5 offense free years - which makes it a
Re: (Score:2)
Your definition of a spent conviction is not quite right. In particular if you have served more than 30 months in prison a conviction is never spent. There are also a number of exceptions to when spent convictions must still be disclosed, in particular around background checks for working with kids, security clearances & criminal proceedings.
It also doesn't prevent someone from pointing at you and calling you a criminal. What it allows is for you to choose to not disclose the information that you hav
Re: (Score:2)
[...] In particular if you have served more than 30 months in prison a conviction is never spent.
Spent conviction schemes vary [humanrights.gov.au] from State to State (and Vic has none). The 30 month rule only applies to the Commonwealth and QLD (I've worked in Cth vetting). Note also that exemptions are made to those rules e.g. Michael Coutts-Trotter [wikipedia.org] I don't disagree with the rest of what you say - except that you've overlooked the Privacy and Discrimination Acts, and civil remedies that apply "if you have obtained a spent conviction and someone makes it known that you have a criminal record" e.g. an NV1 cleared person
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
To be fair? Russia hasn't executed anybody for 20 years or so.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well to be fair, regarding China and Russia, if your criminals are not already executed
Russia has not executed anyone since 1996. China executes more than any other country, but they still account for a miniscule proportion of the prison population. They both have smaller prison populations because they imprison fewer people for shorter durations. Duh.
Re: (Score:1)
The corruption and abuse in the prison system, and the collusion between the prison industry, the unions, and the police, to keep it going, does not need to be "exposed" because it is done openly, and generally with the support of the public.
Could you expand on this? What is it you think is going on? Do you think people are put in prison that haven't committed a criminal offense? Note that is different from things being against the law that you think shouldn't be. Do you think people aren't being released properly? Is this a rant about private prisons? What exactly is your complaint? The concern about Russian and China wasn't solely a question of how many people were in prison, but how and why they got there.
Re: (Score:1)
People are being imprisoned for essentially 'made up' reasons, yes. For instance you might be one of a certain unfortunate minority who is constantly pulled over by the cops basically for every conceivable excuse. Now if you were me (a WASP) you might get a warning for your tail light being burned out (as I did a while back by a cop who was very polite). If you're not so fortunate you're getting tossed against the fender of your car, beat up side the head, and when you object you're tossed in jail for 'resi
Re: (Score:2)
No, that isn't "literally the standard operating procedure in most of the US today." That is nonsense.
Your statement about "black children are incarcerated like this and put in debt bondage to the state" is rubbish, absolute rubbish.
Re: (Score:2)
Your statement about "black children are incarcerated like this and put in debt bondage to the state" is rubbish, absolute rubbish." That is nonsense.
Do you have a source to back your claim that Giant Electric Bra is wrong? Because it seems, sadly, you are very much incorrect:-
Next you'll be telling us people don't go to jail for owing the IRS.
Re: (Score:2)
Which if that applies to black children? I hadn't noticed that black children were a big target of the IRS.
Re: (Score:2)
Which of that applies to black children?
What age range do you define children by?
Note: I'm not suggesting that incarceration for debt is "literally the standard operating procedure in most of the US today.", only in some states of the US (a minority - the Angola Plantation would be a case in point).
I hadn't noticed that black children were a big target of the IRS.
Apologies, that was wrong. It was a poorly considered response meant about debt incarceration in general (something the USA is not the only country that's guilty of). I've no reason to believe the IRS is racially bigoted (not that I've researched the s
Re: (Score:1)
This all is only for failures in the system that are failures also with
Re: (Score:2)
First, I can guarantee you people are put in prison for crimes they didn't commit all the time in the US. This is a known fact, not conjecture. Of course the real issue is that so many people are incarcerated for victimless crimes, as you well know.
You clearly know all the real issues and are trolling (as usual), as you keep mentioning the issues and denying them. Obviou
Why is high incarceration bad? (Score:1)
What "corruption and abuse"? Do you have citations?
Police and prison guards are unionized everywhere — including countries much further down your list...
You seem to imply, the higher incarceration rate is automatically bad — without offering any evidence or even arguments to support the implication.
Maybe, our police are just
Re: (Score:2)
Because many people are in prison for non-violent offences. The companies which make money from prisons, and the unions along side them, put pressure on the police to ensure people are sent there, as it is in their financial interests. Hell, the police like doing it because it makes them seem "tough on crime", without having to explain the difference between someone having some weed or stabbing a nun in the face - "crime" is "crime", and the tougher they are on it the better for them.
If the people in pris
Re: (Score:1)
First of all, like the GP above, you are making statements without citing evidence.
Second, "non-violent" does not mean anything — Mr. Madoff, however non-violent, is far more deserving of prison time, than some guy involved in a (violent) bar brawl, for example. That Madoff's will die in prison, while a brawler is unlikely to spend more than a few weeks in the lock-up, seems perfectly fine to me. In addition to embezzlers, other examples of (
Re: (Score:2)
You are close. There are too many innocent of any crime with an actual victim in prison. Perhaps you forgot, but here in the US most places still lock people up if they are discovered having a good time and enjoying the day, bothering nobody, smoking a joint.
break out or break in (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
We care because of the crimes that were committed.
No you don't. You care because the media keeps bringing it up.
Are you really suggesting that somebody who subjected you to a criminal act like that shouldn't be punished for what he did, and that he shouldn't be isolated to try to prevent such a crime from happening again?
So when that occurs in prison, what do you suggest we do?
Re: (Score:1)
I suggest we keep them isolated but there are many people complaining about administrative custody.
Re: (Score:1)
I don't want to spend the money to keep such a person, just kill that kind and reform the appeal process so that kind of garbage disposal is very cheap
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
conviction in a court of law AND proper appeal process that doesn't drag, that's is due process. News for you, the Founding Fathers were ok with due process that ended in death sentence.
Re: (Score:2)
Try asking how many people have been raped in that prison.
That's why they have to put the sheets over the bars.
On the plus side (Score:1)
Convicts usually don't have much of a plan for when they get out so will likely be caught.
We are fortunate that most criminals are epically stupid because law enforcement and correctional officers are generally quite dumb.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
... dismembering your boss with a hacksaw, you might not be on the cutting edge of interpersonal diplomacy.
On the contrary.
You need outside audits (Score:1)
Rigorous audits, some coming at unannounced times, that will collect the logs, records and surveillance tapes for the past several weeks and then go analyze them. With authority superior to the local prison officials.
The problem is that nobody is ever rewarded for averting a catastrophe that nobody suspects has a non-negligible chance of arising. Before 9/11, the chairwoman of Massport, which operated Boston's Logan Airport from which two planes were hijacked, made it clear that her #1 priority was to get
Thanks, Obama! (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Did you buy your low UID? That group is usually more insightful.
The Republicrats are one party and they control the entire election process. Third parties are doomed from the start regardless of funding.
Re: (Score:1)
Woosh
Re: (Score:1)
You might be joking but I wouldn't be surprised if there's pre-election period motivation for this story :/
Where they're searching next (Score:5, Insightful)
Does anyone else find it odd that the press is reporting where the police will be searching next for the escapees? Who are they trying to help here?
Re: (Score:2)
Nuclear Power (Score:2)
That's the best analogy here. Sooner or later you get a bit too complacent, and then BANG! Every system is flawed as long as it has humans in it. What we need are robot police and prison guards, errrrr overlords! Yeah! lol.
Google street view did not help? (Score:2)
"We've always done it that way" (Score:1)
'As the months go by, years go by, things get less strict,'
Sounds like if they had kept doing things the way they'd always done them, the two guys wouldn't have escaped.
Hmm, I guess "we've always done it that way" is a good reason to at least think before changing things.*
* However, in many cases, once you do think about things, you realize that the old way is no longer the best way. But in the case of the operations at this particular prison....
The Worst Part Here... (Score:2)
...is that NY has proven it has no place to put Cuomo when they finally convict him of being the most corrupt governor in NY history - which, in view of the competition, is one hell of an accomplishment. But he burnished those credentials right in the midst of the escape when he demanded the police drop everything to give him a tour of the prison and then held everything up so he could take reporters on that same tour to get the right slant down on it. That's why the prison authorities are hopping mad, and
Fox robs hen house (Score:2)
Film at 11.
Re: (Score:2)
crap, wrong thread. Please ignore.
But did Bill get corrected? (Score:2)