Emissions Scandal Expands: Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda, and Mitsubishi (theguardian.com) 420
An anonymous reader writes: Volkswagen has taken some serious heat for deliberately circumventing emissions tests with "defeat devices" in some of their vehicles. While no other cars have been found to use specific devices to fool tests in the same way, we're now learning that many manufacturers still mysteriously perform worse in the real world. Last week, the Guardian revealed that diesel cars from Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo, and Renault emitted significantly more pollution in realistic driving conditions than the tests supposedly allow. Now, we learn that vehicles from Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda, and Mitsubishi emit substantially more than they should as well. For example: "Mercedes-Benz's diesel cars produced an average of 0.406g/km of NOx on the road, at least 2.2 times more than the official Euro 5 level and five times higher than the Euro 6 level. Honda's diesel cars emitted 0.484g/km of NOx on average, between 2.6 and six times the official levels." This provides clear evidence that the automotive industry is designing its cars to follow the letter of the law (passing tests), but not the spirit (actually reducing pollution).
Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)
Or it reveals that the testing mechanism was always wrong. It's a leap to say that differences between the tests and "real driving" represent fraud, until it's proven that the cheating mechanism is actually there (as it is in VW).
Re:Maybe (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, it's important for a test to always be uniform. If you tried to test cars under "realistic" driving conditions the tests would all be different.
Realistic driving conditions are variations in temperature, terrain, traffic flow, etc.
Realistic driving conditions vary based on the habits of the driver.
Realistic driving conditions vary based on the condition of the car over time.
Maybe instead of ballyhooing these tests, we should apply common sense to them. Maybe we should see them as a group of data points and not a limits, guarantees, or absolutes?
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Obviously, it's important for a test to always be uniform. If you tried to test cars under "realistic" driving conditions the tests would all be different.
...
Maybe instead of ballyhooing these tests, we should apply common sense to them. Maybe we should see them as a group of data points and not a limits, guarantees, or absolutes?
Indeed, it sounds like these results should simply inform a better coefficient for expected real-world performance based on the standardized tests.
Re:Maybe (Score:4, Informative)
All manufacturers designed their engine/transmission management systems to pass the test, what happened outside the test conditions were in the "your actual mileage may vary" zone; It's just like "common core" where they teach the kids to specifically pass the test. If you want cars to perform under realistic driving conditions the same as they do under emissions test, you have to make the test conditions as close to realistic as possible. The big three used to test their suspensions by driving down a particular bumpy section of Woodward avenue in Detroit, when they announced that that section of road was going to be repaired and repaved, the manufacturer surveyed the road and duplicated it at their test tracks to maintain continuity, and keep the test as close to realistic as possible.
Volkswagon's mistake was they actually change the operating parameters based whether the vehicle was being tested for emissions or for mileage or under normal conditions, the next step is for the bureaucrats to realise that they can have vehicle emit differing levels of emissions based on location and weather; your car may suck donkey balls in San Francisco, but run like a champ in Montana.
News reports: Volkswagen used special hardware. (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently it wasn't a "mistake". Apparently Volkswagen used special hardware and software to break the law.
Yesterday on PBS NewsHour the CEO of Volkswagen said the dishonesty was the fault of unknown rogue software engineers, and no managers knew about it. However, special hardware was designed into the system; that couldn't have happened without help from other people in the company, including hardware buyers.
See this article: Older VW diesels will need software and hardware fixes, Horn tells lawmakers [autonews.com].
The CEO seems to be lying deliberately. He says "software". Then later mentions "hardware".
That Auto News article was apparently written by someone who doesn't understand that, if hardware is required, the dishonesty must have been approved by Volkswagen management.
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When I read the article linked, it was clear that VW used hardware as part of the "cheat device", just that hardware would have to be changed to meet emissions testing on the first and second generation TDLs. Perhaps I'm being generous but if VW emission engineers didn't know about the "cheat device" then it's likely that the hardware was never tested without the cheat.
My point was the VW demonstrated the ability to change emissions profile to increase performance and fuel mileage (basically trading less CO
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Obviously, it's important for a test to always be uniform. If you tried to test cars under "realistic" driving conditions the tests would all be different.
Realistic driving conditions are variations in temperature, terrain, traffic flow, etc.
Realistic driving conditions vary based on the habits of the driver.
Realistic driving conditions vary based on the condition of the car over time.
Maybe instead of ballyhooing these tests, we should apply common sense to them. Maybe we should see them as a group of data points and not a limits, guarantees, or absolutes?
Best way would be-
1. Place devices in 1000 or so vehicles, all over the country, in different settings (urban, rural, suburb) with drivers of all different ages. Measure accelerator position, speed, brake pedal position, exterior temperature, interior temperature, AC/heating load, etc.
2. Come up with some average of this sample. The average becomes the emissions regimen, and the vehicle is exercised by computer control to match this average.
3. Emissions/MPG are based on the vehicle matching these avera
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Best way would be-
1. Place devices in 1000 or so vehicles, [...]
A problem with this is that it can only be done post-hoc, while these tests are designed to test whether a vehicle is allowed on the road at all. And even with such a test the software could potentially detect such a device (by monitoring the data transmissions or whatever). I agree that the regulators test should be as strict and as realistic as possible while still being standardized enough to be useful, but willful cheating is corporate crime and should be prosecuted as such.
The information you propose w
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Are you in the car industry? I'm sure they fully agree with you ;-)
I think may of those variations can be actually controlled without testing on a dynamo meter in a lab:
- Testing on a test track eliminates terrain, traffic and conditions of the car over time.
- Having a clear test scenario and test profile will elliminate the drivers habits and if you drive one way and then the other the wind effects should be minimal.
Then you only need to add a maximum wind speed and a clear day and maximum and miminum temp
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
The testing mechanism may not necessarily "wrong" as much as it may be overly limited to specific conditions. Testing that specific conditions that are only present during tests (front wheels not moving while rear wheels are at 35.1 & then 55MPH for X distance) & changing the fuel injection to limit NO as VW did is cheating. Defining "realistic driving conditions" as rriving uphill or at higher speed than specified in the tests & producing more pollutants isn't.
IMO, the book values on HP & t
Re:Maybe (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. VW did very egregious cheating, deliberately detecting tests and then optimizing for them. It sounds like these others are not engaging a "test mode"; but have optimized themselves for conditions that are tested for (at the expense of power and fuel efficiency) while optimized themselves for power and fuel efficiency in conditions that aren't tested for. Not as egregious, but still clearly problematic. There's clearly gaping holes in the system.
It also puts to lie this massive increase in diesel cleanliness over the years. It's improved, no question, but not nearly as much as has been marketed, particularly in smaller, cheaper vehicles. The same old choice remains: you can get a ~15% increase in fuel efficiency by mass (~30% by volume), and thus ~15% reduction in CO2 emissions, by going with a diesel, but it'll come at the cost of a more expensive engine (has to be built stronger to handle the higher compression, all issues of additional pollution control systems aside) and will kick out more health-impacting pollutants. And it just comes down to chemistry: if you burn fuel in air at hotter temperatures and/or higher pressures, you favor the production of chemicals like NOx - high temperatures and pressures make nitrogen more reactive. And you're going to kick out more PM for similar reasons. The higher temperatures and pressures help with CO and unburned hydrocarbons (they favor more complete combustion), but the scale of the added NOx and PM problems are much greater.
Contrary to what they've been pretending, a major way that car manufacturers appear to have been reducing NOx emissions in diesels is simply by burning their fuel cooler / less efficiently in conditions that are being tested for, and hotter the rest of the time to keep their performance and efficiency numbers up.
Re:Maybe (Score:4, Interesting)
It sounds like these others are not engaging a "test mode"; but have optimized themselves for conditions that are tested for (at the expense of power and fuel efficiency) while optimized themselves for power and fuel efficiency in conditions that aren't tested for.
Or the tests simply don't reflect the typical driver at all. Look the EPA sticker on my car says 39mph high way. Where I live there isn't much other traffic most of the time. Its pretty rural so the determining factor is more my driving than anything else. Weather and time of year in terms of summer blend vs winter gas probably has an effect as well. If I moderate my driving I can get well over the sticker, I have averaged as high as 42mpg over a tanks. The way I usually drive, I get about 27.
I don't suspect cheating either because I can reproduce the results to my satisfaction. It don't even think its a case of optimizing to the test. I think its just a case of optimizing period. The best fuel economy is observed by traveling at a constant speed and accelerating slowly when that is required. Highway travel is usually constant speed over several miles or more @55-75mph, so that is the behavior that should be targeted. Its pretty easy to work out that is what the car is optimized to do just using your trip odometer and recording how much fuel you buy. Sure you could tune it to deliver better acceleration (just change the gear ratios would be one obvious way) but the cost would probably be economy cruising, anyway you go about it.
As other have pointed out the test has to be specific and control for as many variables as possible, otherwise we can't use it for comparative use cases. So add additional test conditions, maybe publish results and set standards for different driver profiles, aggressive, nominal, hyper miler, and publish them all. Don't develop a new single test case because you will create a perverse incentive to target that use case and it will likely be more distant from actual use than city/highway profiles they have now.
Cheating on the Test (Score:5, Informative)
It pretty much sums up the whole EU (Score:2)
Its one big deceit foisted on a gullible public for the benefit of political class gravy trainers.
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" It's a leap to say that differences between the tests and "real driving" represent fraud, until it's proven that the cheating mechanism is actually there (as it is in VW)."
Hey Potsy, they found cheating. You even referenced it in your post. FTA:
"...carmakers designed vehicles that perform better in the lab than on the road. "
So yeah car manufacturers are gaming the system.
Re:Diesel are more eco-friendly than gasoline (Score:5, Funny)
Yes. Blasting a black cloud of carcinogenic particulates in my face every time you accelerate is definitely eco-friendly.
Re:Diesel are more eco-friendly than gasoline (Score:4, Interesting)
Here's a newsflash: particulate emissions are regulated by mass, but biological harm is proportional to the number of particles. The fact that those carcinogenic particulates from Diesels are big enough to form a visible cloud means they're less dangerous than the much larger number of tiny invisible particulates that gasoline engines emit.
(Not to mention, the modern Diesels being discussed have particulate filters -- which do actually work; the "emissions cheating" is about NOx, not particulates -- but modern gasoline engines still don't. And by the way: gasoline engines emit a fun mix of toxic substances such as benzene and formaldehyde that are much lower in Diesel emissions, and which are totally unregulated. New gasoline engines are way more carcinogenic than Diesels, even by a wider margin than they used to be.)
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You are dumping 40 times the amount of nox in the air, how exactly are you more ecofirendly?
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No you are dumping UPTO 40 times the amount of NOx into the air than the maximum from the test. The important bit is the UPTO, It could mean that if I floor the accelerator from a standing start for the first 0.5s it is wildly over the limit aka 40 times over, for the next 0.5s its is only a bit over say 4x and after a second it is back under the limit. The UPTO 40 times has not been qualified to my knowledge though is almost certainly only going to apply to transient conditions and anyway only applies to V
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Acid rain was caused mostly by SO2 from coal-fired power plants. NOx from vehicles is small potatoes in comparison.
Only in NOx-limited areas. In VOC-limited areas, increasing NOx actually helps.
Nope! In fact, the opposite. Wikipedia claims [wikipedia.org]:
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That makes zero sense. What you're suggesting is that we let automakers continue to destroy our environment, just so they can make profits, like they have some sort of god-given right to make a profit. It's this kind of whoring that has put the planet in the state it's in now. All automakers should be moving to 100% electric at this point anyway. Lowering the bar for emissions would be a step backwards.
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It couldn't possibly be that people preferentially choose cars with certain performance characteristics; rather than choosing exclusively based on some kind of greenwashed idealism? Or that automakers cater to consumer demand?
This is the exact line of reasoning that would see fast food restaurants serving broccoli rather than burgers and fries because .. idealism.
when pure EV's are ready for mass consumption, people will buy them.. and not a moment sooner.
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Translation - Are all your cars 100% coal-powered? Electric-powered means coal-powered.
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Well, no. Where I live an electric car is powered by natural gas (the only generation we have here). In the UK, depending on where you lived, your electric car may be nuclear powered, gas powered, wind powered or coal powered. Coal is on the wane, being replaced by natural gas and wind. If you live in France, your electric car is nuclear powered pretty much all the time (France generates more than 100% of its power needs with nuclear, exporting the balance to neighbouring countries).
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It doesn't matter
The official figures might be perfect when every customer is driving in a suburban environment in fall near Luxembourg...
The rest of us will drive in Arizona's summer, Florida's summer, Alaska's winter, through Colorado passes, or more often, 1 mile at a time on a cold engine to ferry kids to school...
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TYPICAL DRIVING across the US. So you get arbitrary number, which gives you a ballpark for comparison.
Be happy that it's usually pretty close to the real thing.
Realism (Score:2)
Is there some compelling reason why these tests aren't being conducted in realistic conditions in the first place?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
You need a controlled environment for consistent results.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Is there some compelling reason why these tests aren't being conducted in realistic conditions in the first place?
Jobs. No government wants to all of a sudden have car manufacturers have to stop making diesels until they can comply and thus or lay off workers or require cash injections to stave off bankruptcy. In auditor, given the fuel cost advantage of diesel over gas the car buying public is likely to be upset. Since politicians neither want to piss off companies or voters they prefer to pretend the problem doesn't exist and delay changes through the beuracratic process know as "Studying the problem to come up with
Re: (Score:2)
Repeatability. If you can't repeat the measurement, then the result can result in a "he said"/"she said" fight in the courts or in administrative hearings. That said, the testing you do on the dynamometer should bear some relation to what actually happens in the field. Engineers will tune their products to the tests. Some engineers will also test "in real life", but only if they have time an
Re: (Score:2)
Because the car manufacturers don't like it. They have stalled the efforts (at least here in Europe) to have realistic test scenario's for many years: 'not objective' 'too expensive' etc.
Now Europe has said it will push formward this legilation which has been ready for years. It clearly wants to make use of the momentum while the car industry is on the defence...
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Not at all. As an engineer, you give me clear goals:
Meet these specific standards under these specific conditions.
I can do that. I will probably do that at the expense of performance under other conditions. That's engineering. that's not being a corporate apologist. Now VW took it over the line, by actively modifying the code to pass those tests, something that is forbidden, but without third-party review it's impossible to catch this sort of stuff.
What needs to be happening is that the software is aud
Well, goodbye passenger car diesel! (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think diesel passenger cars will be a thing much longer in North America after this. And time to change the tests to measure results in real world usage conditions.
Re:Well, goodbye passenger car diesel! (Score:5, Interesting)
I took autoshop in the late 90s. I remember my autoshop teacher swearing up and down that diesels could not be cleaned up enough to make a good passenger car engine. He swore up and down that they were cheating on emissions tests back then. Never underestimate the "shadetree mechanic" type of person.
Re:Well, goodbye passenger car diesel! (Score:5, Interesting)
The standby generator market which I am very familiar with half jokingly refers to the next round of emission standards as "diesel air cleaners"-- the standby generators will be required to have cleaner air out of the exhaust pipe than what comes in.
Emission standards have become very strict; while the objectives are good, they are pushing the realm of what is viable.
For standby generators, continuous monitoring is practical, but when it takes 20-30 minutes to come up to full temperature and the normal run time is less than an hour, actual emissions are going to be much worse than the idealized continuous running state. We actually need to add artificial load to make the emissions control systems work properly-- increasing CO2 and NOx, and DPM t(o some level) in absolute terms, but reducing them relative to the engine size. I imagine cars are in a similar condition; "real world" is an ambiguous design condition.
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Except in places where CNG and LNG are not viable options.
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Not really; most standby diesel generators run less than 50 hours in a given year; in their lifetime it is uncommon for them to have over 1,500 hours, and most 30-year old gensets I see have less than 1,000. Compare that to a typical passenger vehicle, school bus, or even fire truck, and the money is best spent elsewhere.
Moreover, diesel fuel is easy and safe to store. LNG or CNG not so much. Piped utilities are unreliable in earthquakes, and not 100% in hurricanes and many other natural disasters.
Mind y
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well think again...
http://s.newsweek.com/sites/ww... [newsweek.com]
you forget the rednecks
Forfeit all revenues from sales (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, if they want to cheat then they should have to forfeit 3X any revenues (not profit which is a much smaller figure) they made from the products they sold. Have the money fund the EPA or something similar or refund the customers. Any engineer or manager who signed off on or was involved in this should be liable for damages as well as criminal charges with no corporate protection since this was a fraud.
I've also read in the last day or two that VW is (predictiably) trying to claim that management knew nothing about the emissions and that "a handful" of engineers were responsible. While there were obviously engineers responsible I have NO doubt whatsoever that management requested and signed off on this. They're just trying to throw a few peons under the bus to save their own skin.
Re: Forfeit all revenues from sales (Score:2)
And now for what will actually happen:
A round of wrist slapping followed by executive bonuses for successfully dealing with the crisis.
Probably... (Score:2)
A round of wrist slapping followed by executive bonuses for successfully dealing with the crisis.
Sad but probably true...
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Have you ever worked in a larger corporation? There are quite a few layers of managers and worker bees, so the upper layers do
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Some folks pretty high up had to know (Score:2)
Have you ever worked in a larger corporation?
Probably more than most people reading this and I've spent a good chunk of my career (several decades) dealing directly with large automotive companies. I run a small company that is a supplier to some of these big companies we are talking about.
There are quite a few layers of managers and worker bees, so the upper layers don't necessarily know what the lower layers are doing.
At least in the case of VW this wasn't some minor engineering decision. I don' t have a doubt in my mind that some folks pretty high up the food chain at VW knew. As for the other companies, we'll see. If it is merely a difference in real world vs test bench the
Re: (Score:2)
I've also read in the last day or two that VW is (predictiably) trying to claim that management knew nothing about the emissions and that "a handful" of engineers were responsible.
This is true; VW is trying to isolate this to "a few software engineers." The most poignant moment in yesterday's testimony before the House was from Rep Chris Collins (R-NY); he pointed out that VW is not merely a car manufacturer, but also a major IP concern. VW, like the other major auto manufacturers, has teams of IP lawyers that analyze every aspect of their engineering and file for patents on every `innovation.' Yet somehow, after the inevitable struggle they must have had achieving the necessary p
Proving it was more than a few people (Score:2)
It's not a couple of software engineers, but proving that will be impossible
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I guarantee you that there is a paper trail here. NOTHING happens in an automotive company that large without a lot of documentation being generated. R&D, engineering, testing and management all HAD to be involved. If the government really decides to go after this (big if I know) I don't think it would be hard at all to prove that it was more than a few folks involved.
It's possible to get to the truth. It wouldn't even be that difficult; just arrest some engineers and file criminal charges. At some point one of them would cut a deal and talk. That won't happen, however.
It might if the right people are doing the prosecuting. It will take years however and the damage is
Not surprising and can you blame them? (Score:5, Insightful)
The law says "pass this test" so they pass the test.
How is this different than standardized testing in schools? The state says "pass this test" so the teachers train the kids to pass the test.
Do they actually LEARN anything useful for the real world?
Do these cars actually have low emissions when driven in the real world??
You be the judge.
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The law says "pass this test" so they pass the test.
How is this different than standardized testing in schools? The state says "pass this test" so the teachers train the kids to pass the test.
Do they actually LEARN anything useful for the real world?
Do these cars actually have low emissions when driven in the real world??
You be the judge.
Which is the fundamental problem with many metrics used to judge success. People measure an outcome without think about what they really want to accomplish. You want me to hit X? Ok, I'll hit X. Oh, you really wanted me to do Y which might stop me from hitting X? Sorry, I got rewarded for hitting X so Y got run over in the process. Thank you for playing, better luck next time, and I have some lovely parting gifts for you...
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Standardized testing doesn't accomplish much IMHO. You teach the test, learn nothing else, and you end up with people who can past tests, but otherwise cannot actually do what the tests were designed to test for.
BUT If you have non-standardized testing, it is somehow unfair because testing isn't consistent and therefore subject to bias (or worse).
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Moron.
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And you wonder why there are so many regulations. It's because of these circumstances that the government has to SPELL EVERYTHING OUT, or business will act like little children and say, "well you didn't say take of my cloths before I get in the shower."
Moron.
Since this is a technological site I think it's interesting to consider that VW (and all the others as we're now seeing) can't make a clean diesel.
Well, they CAN make a diesel run clean, but only under specific controlled conditions for a tailpipe sniffer test.
The logical conclusion is that when the diesel engine runs clean, it has other undesirable characteristics. This, because, if it COULD run clean AND also have desirable characteristics, they would have it run clean all the time. It's simpler. Why add
Why no diesel hybrids? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Cost. Diesel engines, plus the associated emission control equipment, are expensive. Batteries, electric motor, regenerative brakes and other hybrid equipment are also expensive. Both provide pretty good mileage improvements, but having both on will hit diminishing returns, so it's not worth it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Why no diesel hybrids? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why no diesel hybrids? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder about this, in the context of long-haul semis. I've wondered what it would be like if someone, say Peterbilt, would make a truck tractor with a fixed-speed diesel driv
Re:Why no diesel hybrids? (Score:4, Informative)
Diesels already almost always run in their optimum range. A car engine basically has three operating states that are important. Accelerating from a stop, cruising (usually at highway speeds), and accelerating at highway speeds (to pass).
Gasoline engines hit peak power and torque at the high-end of their RPM range. That's great for accelerating at highway speeds, not so good for cruising and accelerating from a stop. Because most of the engine's time is spent cruising, that's where you need to optimize fuel burn rate to improve overall fuel efficiency. Gas engines have a lot of problem with this because it's not coincident with their peak power and torque production. Consequently you're having to optimize the engine's performance at two hugely different RPMs. The hybrid helps a lot here because the electric motor provides a lot of torque at 0 RPM for accelerating from a stop (power = torque * RPM * a constant),and allows the gas engine to be shut off completely for a while during cruising. So now you can optimize the gas engine for high-RPM efficiency, and rely on the electric motor for what would normally be low-RPM operation.
Diesel engines have a higher compression ratio so hit peak power and torque at the low-end of their RPM range. That's great for cruising and accelerating from a stop, not so great for accelerating at highway speeds. This is why they're so common in tractor trailers - it's OK if the truck takes a long time to accelerate at highway speeds, but you want good power and fuel efficiency during cruise. Since the diesel engine's peak torque and power happen close to cruise, they're a lot easier to optimize for fuel efficiency.
A hybrid won't actually help much here because it doesn't add much - the diesel engine already has lots of torque close to 0 RPM, and is fuel efficient during cruise. About the only thing a hybrid would add would be regenerative braking. While that's a big deal in city driving, the vast majority of the driving tractor trailers do is on the highway, so again there's little benefit from the hybrid. The best thing to add to a diesel is actually a turbo. Their weakness is power output at higher RPMs, and a turbo provides extra power at the high-end of the RPM range, which improves accelerating to pass at highway speeds - precisely the driving stage diesels normally have problems with.
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optimization problem (Score:2)
Parameter optimization is always a difficult problem. Even if the engine parameters change with varying conditions, the "operational envelope" is not going to be uniform under all conditions.
If you have to choose between optimizing "road" emissions or "test" emissions, which one do you think is going to ship?
Note I'm not talking about VW style cheating.
Cycle beating. (Score:3)
Beating test cycles by engineering to the test is hardly a new phenomenon, and it is the bulk of why current EU tests [wikipedia.org] are being replaced by new standards currently in development [wikipedia.org] that are harder to game [researchgate.net]. Even with this improvement, expect some level of optimization for test conditions while either ignoring or even harming real world performance.
The relentless cycle beating has had a myriad of harmful effects beyond just not accomplishing the purpose.
Re: (Score:2)
Increasing wear and tear and drastically reducing the life of the vehicle.
Ever hear someone say, "the don't make stuff to last anymore"?
Well now you know why (in part at least) stuff doesn't last as long as they used to.
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One of the worse effects of all of this are the cultural consequences inside these corporations; your willingness to defeat the testing regime determines your fate. You can be certain the managers in charge today are the guys that "got it done" years ago by beating the tests. They're the ones that keep quiet, look the other way every time, and quietly make sure the honest ones don't get anywhere near responsible positions.
This reminds me of a story. (Score:2)
Couple of Engineers (Score:5, Funny)
The VW boss recently said "It's the decision of a couple of software engineers, not the board members." It looks like those two software engineers snuck into all these other car companies and altered their systems also! How nefarious!
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Sensational but misleading headline? Not on /. (Score:2)
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Test quality (Score:3)
who get billions in fines? (Score:2)
What if emission requirements are unrealistic? (Score:3)
The correct approach is incentives, tax pollution via fuel taxes and give out incentives to manufacturers exceeding the average. This way cleaner diesel, that are more expensive to produce, will be eligible for a credit, making them cost-competitive.
The root cause of VW fiasco is that they couldn't produce a clean engine at a price point. Making too-expensive car that very few people would ever buy (because it costs too much!) does not benefit the environment in any way.
There had to be collusion or awareness (Score:3)
There's no way the other diesel manufacturers were unaware of what Volkswagen was doing. Here's a little more on this: http://geekcrumbs.com/2015/10/... [geekcrumbs.com]
No defeat device == No scandal (Score:3)
VW is a scandal because it detected the car being not on the test bench and relaxed to emission control.
It's the regulations that are a sham (Score:2)
If you look at air pollution statistics from any first-world country, you'll find they have been getting significantly better over the last decade.
The ONLY way forward from this "cheating" mess it to raise the standards to allow what cars are already emitting - because we know for a FACT that pollution has gone down with those levels of emissions actually allowed.
Geared for passing tests... Thats todays society (Score:2)
"This provides clear evidence that the automotive industry is designing its cars to follow the letter of the law (passing tests), but not the spirit (actually reducing pollution)."
Sounds a lot like the educational system of today too. We got a lot of work to do.
Corporations are corrupt (Score:3, Insightful)
That is the real problem. The entire basis for the corporate system is avoidance of responsibility. Maximize profits at any cost, even human life. And bad emission controls do threaten human life, see the killer smogs in London in the 50's or in China today. Look at the BP oil spill, the Piper Alpha, or Bhopal India and not a single C level manager or member of the BOD was held responsible, despite the fact that when things go right they get bonuses.
Until we hold executive officers, whose title comes from the word "to execute" as in to make happen, or members of the BOD are personally held civilly and/or criminally responsible then nothing will really change.
What do you bet (Score:2)
I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that most if not all vehicle manufacturers are doing this.
I don't think they all are, but would I be shocked to find out they are? Nope.
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up." - Lily Tomlin
Something completely relevant.... (Score:2)
Here's something for all you CI/CD volkswagon geeks out there.
https://github.com/auchenberg/... [github.com]
Thank me later
Re:Honda Diesel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? It's not like Slashdot is a US centric web page... Why does it have to make special mention of the status in the US?
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[quote]The majority of slashdot readers are in the US.[/quote]
Citation Needed.
[quote]The majority of slashdot commenters are in the US as well.[/quote]
Citation Needed.
Re:Honda Diesel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? It's not like Slashdot is a US centric web page...
In all actuality, it really is. Slashdot covers US politics to an extent that it covers no other country (or even perhaps all of them combined). And it's not "politics in America affects everyone", either: I can't for the life of me figure out why, say, a Scandi cares about H1B tech hires in California.
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Is that a thing?
Has the day finally dawned when we can have an ethnic slur for Scandinavians? Here's hoping.
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I don't think he's saying they aren't relevant if you can't buy them in the US. He's just saying that for prospective buyers in the US, this isn't an answer.
I think that is changing though. Jeep is said to be introducing a diesel engine option for the Wrangler in the next few years, and there are rumors of Toyota expanding their availability. There are significant barriers to introducing a new diesel import to the US market, so there must be some significant demand showing.
Environmentalists don't like diese
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http://gas2.org/2015/03/10/jee... [gas2.org]
"According to AutoBlog, an anonymous source at FCA has confirmed that the next generation Jeep Wrangler will be available with a 3.0 liter V6 diesel engine coupled to an 8 speed automatic transmission. While the parent company offers this combination in the Dodge Ram 1500 pickup truck and the Jeep Grand Cherokee, this is the first indication the powertrain will be offered in the Wrangler."
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I used to sell Jeeps. Never saw a car leak so much when new before. Every other unit leaked ... from the factory.
Re:Honda Diesel? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Honda Diesel? (Score:5, Funny)
Obviously anything not concerning US citizens should be labeled as such. After all, the site's motto is "News for US Nerds, Stuff that matters to US only".
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I wonder if it is a clue they talked about "Euro" levels in the summary. It is almost as if Euro means Europe or something..
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Corporate lawbreaking is "human nature" but whining isn't?
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Skirting artificial barriers to gain advantages is "human nature". The problem is, that it is acceptable from just about everyone. I dare say that just about everyone here on Slashdot supports breaking artificial barriers in at least one area. If you're upset in one area, and complicit in another, you're just a hypocrite (we all are)
Immigration
Corporations
Politics
DMCA
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Also I understand that "the fix" would decrease the performance of the car, which is likely to affect its resell value.
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Instructions unclear. Decorative photos tastefully hung on wall. Please send help.
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