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United States The Courts

Federal Judge Rules Against Trump Administration on 3-D Gun Blueprint Case (latimes.com) 418

A federal judge on Monday issued a preliminary injunction continuing a prohibition on the Trump administration proposal to make available blueprints for so-called ghost guns, untraceable weapons that can be manufactured on a 3-D printer, California Atty. Gen. Xavier Becerra said. From a report: California was one of 20 states led by Washington that won the decision from U.S. District Judge Robert S. Lasnik in Seattle. The injunction extends a ruling last month that barred the Trump administration from taking steps that would allow the firm Defense Distributed to disseminate 3-D gun blueprints. "When the Trump Administration inexplicably gave the green light to distribute on the internet blueprints of 3D-printed, untraceable ghost guns, it needlessly endangered our children, our loved ones and our men and women in law enforcement," Becerra said in a statement. "The Trump Administration's actions were dangerous and incompetent."
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Federal Judge Rules Against Trump Administration on 3-D Gun Blueprint Case

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:08PM (#57205508)

    What is so complicated about "[s]hall not be infringed?"

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 )

      What is so complicated about "[s]hall not be infringed?"

      The Second Amendment talks about the right to keep and bear arms, not manufacture them ...

      • by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:14PM (#57205556)

        Who is manufacturing them? This is like Metallica suing Napster for distributing mp3 files. The judge says you can't download these files. What if you printed the text of these files into a book and sold it? Would that book be deemed illegal?

        • by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:17PM (#57205586)

          What is so complicated about "[s]hall not be infringed?"

          The Second Amendment talks about the right to keep and bear arms, not manufacture them ...

          Who is manufacturing them? This is like Metallica suing Napster for distributing mp3 files. The judge says you can't download these files. What if you printed the text of these files into a book and sold it? Would that book be deemed illegal?

          Then it sounds like a First Amendment issue, not Second.

        • by HornWumpus ( 783565 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:24PM (#57205668)

          The judge says you can't download the files from defense distributed

          The files are readily available.

          As are other files that show you how to make usable guns from metal (AK action from a shovel).

          This one has to be tough for TDS people, he's right. Best to just move past it, as fast as possible.

          An all plastic gun is already illegal to have. They are supposed to set off metal detectors. IIRC 10 years federal, same as an unlicensed machine gun/guided missile.

          You can be up for 10 years for purposely bending a semi auto's firing pin, making it slamfire. The whole area of law is no joke. 10 years for a useless plastic gun would be embarrassing. Like a 'petty' crime bust.

          • by wizkid ( 13692 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @04:02PM (#57206006) Homepage

            The judge says you can't download the files from defense distributed The files are readily available.

            Along with the spec's for a AR15. But those are legal because they're not in cad format. For someone who's worked a c&c lathe, that's not a big obstacle.

            An all plastic gun is already illegal to have. They are supposed to set off metal detectors. IIRC 10 years federal, same as an unlicensed machine gun/guided missile.

            And these guns do have a metal firing pin, so they are legal from this argument.

            It is not illegal to make a gun. It's illegal to make a gun and sell it.. But, what if you make the gun, use it for 20 years, give it to your son, and he sells it?

            • Its federal law. 'danger will robinson'. Gotta be a detectable amount of (likely ferrous) metal.

              Of all the ways to fuckup and end up in fed, playing with a dangerous, useless plastic gun would be about the stupidest.

            • It's illegal to make a gun and sell it.. But, what if you make the gun, use it for 20 years, give it to your son, and he sells it?

              It's illegal to make a gun for the purpose of selling it unless you're licensed. However, it's perfectly legal to make one for yourself and later sell it, though the burden of proof will be on you to show that you didn't make it specifically for resale. In your example the gun was clearly made for personal use, with twenty years of use between manufacture and sale, so the son shouldn't encounter any difficulties.

            • Giving it to your son would constitute transfer and would make both you and your son criminals.

        • Actually it's more like trying to stop the publication of the Anarchists Cookbook in the 60's. The feds lost that case. Or stop the publication of plans for a Nuclear bomb in the 70's. The feds lost that one. Or publish the code to PGP privacy in the 80's, the Feds lost that one.

          This is why the State Dept. was about to settle and allow publication. Because the courts have previously ruled that the government can't silence speech even if that speech includes plans, diagrams and instructions for weapons
      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:17PM (#57205588)

        They are impinging on the first amendment. They are not allowed to tell people how to make them, thats different from actually making them.

        But nonetheless, I find it interesting that the "states rights" outweigh the 1st and 2nd amendments according to this court, which I find illogical. It also seems odd for "libs" to be fighting for states rights... May you live in interesting times.. well these are pretty interesting.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by EvilSS ( 557649 )
        Very true. However this particular case isn't a 2A case to being with since there is no law banning these plans domestically. The case revolves around an ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) issue, where the feds said that making them available on a US website made them available to international users, and thus "export". I'm really not seeing how the states have standing on something like this, which is part of a power explicitly granted to the federal government.
      • by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:33PM (#57205740)

        The Second Amendment talks about the right to keep and bear arms, not manufacture them ...

        It is legal to manufacture guns. Instead of an affirmative right to manufacture guns existing: the federal government doesn't have within
        its enumerated powers a capability to ban the private manufacture of guns --- although they can regulate the manufacture related to interstate commerce;
        the federal government doesn't have the authority to restrict individuals manufacturing firearms for their own personal use,
        and they don't even attempt to (no law on the books prohibits this).

        This injunction isn't a violation of the 2nd amendment: It's a breach of the 1st amendment rights of Defense Distributed.

      • by MBGMorden ( 803437 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:40PM (#57205808)

        Indeed - this has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment - and everything to do with the 1st.

        You see, it's already legal to manufacture these guns in most places within the US. If you have the file it's legal to print it.

        What they're literally saying is that it's illegal to transmit the INSTRUCTIONS. The information on how to do so.

        I'm sorry, but there's no way that will pass constitutional muster. If you want to try and outlaw the home manufacture of guns that's a separate issue that is not currently being debated, but barring the publication of instructional information, PARTICULARLY regarding a completely legal activity, is antithetical to the 1st ammendment.

        This will certainly be overturned.

        • by sycodon ( 149926 )

          Yep. They have tried to ban the Anarchists's Cookbook forever and keep getting slapped down.

        • It will be overturned and a waste of everyone's time and money.

          Is it just me or are there a record number of injunctions than before? It is getting a little bit ridiculous that a few un-elected judges can stop obvious legal actions with questionable standing for the sake of grandstanding and #resist. Maybe not but there have been quite a few injunctions that had no business or standing to be filed.

      • by Woldscum ( 1267136 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:43PM (#57205840)

        More Pro gun control Fake News.

        VERY IMPORTANT point. If you are legally able to buy/own a firearm (AK, AR, BB gun, Shotgun, Pistol, etc). You are 100% legally able to build yourself one or 100 of them. Just not for sale, must be for your own use. Making a gun for someone else would make you a manufacturer and need a Type 7 FFL. They would need to ban blueprints and STL files of gun receivers too. A CNC milling machine uses "flies from the web" also.

        https://www.atf.gov/firearms/q... [atf.gov]
        ATF FAQs
        Does an individual need a license to make a firearm for personal use?
        No, a license is not required to make a firearm solely for personal use. However, a license is required to manufacture firearms for sale or distribution. The law prohibits a person from assembling a non–sporting semiautomatic rifle or shotgun from 10 or more imported parts, as well as firearms that cannot be detected by metal detectors or x–ray machines. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and advance approval by ATF.

        [18 U.S.C. 922(o), (p) and (r); 26 U.S.C. 5822; 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

      • by oic0 ( 1864384 )
        Its completely legal to manufacture guns... You can't sell them, but you can make them all you want.
      • by tricorn ( 199664 ) <sep@shout.net> on Monday August 27, 2018 @05:38PM (#57206678) Journal

        It isn't a Second Amendment case, it's First Amendment, very similar to Bernstein v US DoJ [google.com].

        I don't see why this is even an issue. If a state wants to prevent this, they should pass their own laws, as some have done.

        In most states, it is perfectly legal to make your own gun, it does not need to be registered or have a serial number, and you can't transfer it to anyone.

        It isn't legal to make an undetectable gun regardless of how you make it. There are easier ways to make an untraceable gun. Putting "3-D printer files" (or CNC milling files) on the internet shouldn't be legally different from publishing a book on how to make your own gun out of stuff you can buy at the hardware store with ordinary household tools.

        If someone is going to make their own illegal guns and sell them, restricting the distribution of plans, even if 3-D printers become much cheaper, easier to use, and more capable, isn't going to slow them down at all.

        Restricting the plans for the parts that aren't even controlled seems even more clear.

        I don't own any guns. I just think this is a dangerous precedent.

      • In this case, it's not a prohibition against manufacturing, it's a prohibition about even talking about a specific potential design to make one. Essentially a thought-crime.
    • What is so complicated about "[s]hall not be infringed?"

      Yeah! Why won't they allow me to yell "fire" in a crowded theater? /s

      Every amendment has limitations.

  • DUMB! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Zorro ( 15797 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:10PM (#57205528)

    You can make a shotgun out of two pieces of pipe and a nail.

  • by fish_in_the_c ( 577259 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:13PM (#57205550)

    What grounds are there for stopping this information from being published? I mean, you need complicated machines and a lot of knowledge to actually use it don't you? If you have that much knowledge how hard can it be to come up with the plans yourself? Even so, I can find information on how to build bombs a plenty, destroy sensitive infrastructure , avoid surveillance ,and kill people with various types of poisons and weapons, some of which I can outright buy on the internet.
    So WHAT is danger is this preventing , other then making those lobbing for gun restrictions looks like loonies? I mean , there must be 5000 better ways to protect people from Gun violence, why spend your time and resources? What is the gain?

    • by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:19PM (#57205618)

      Judges and politicians are old and have no clue how the internet works much less 3d printers. This is like saying blueprints of firearms are illegal.

      • Judges and politicians are old and have no clue how the internet works much less 3d printers. This is like saying blueprints of firearms are illegal.

        What this is really about is protecting authoritarian foreign governments from their own people. These foreign governments have applied political and diplomatic pressure as well as "contributed" large sums of money to US politicians to prevent the distribution of such information that those wishing to free themselves from oppression could use to gain their liberty.

        As to posters here who ridiculed the idea that rebels with a one-shot single-use gun could beat those armed with normal guns, it's quite simple.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:35PM (#57205760)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • A 3D printed gun against tanks, aircraft, machine guns and a state willing to use them against their people is not going to be a win for the 3D printed gun group. They'll criminalize possession of the 3D printer, the ammunition, hell even the gun powder.

        The whole stupid idea that a bunch of citizens with guns could stop a national army is stupid propaganda from the NRA. They can't and history is replete with examples even dating back to when the army had the same weapons as the lay person.

    • by EvilSS ( 557649 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:47PM (#57205884)
      The original case was based on ITARS (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) and the fact that the US Gov didn't feel that a domestic website could prevent any exfiltration of the files outside the US. There is nothing illegal about the files, it's international distribution (or the possibility of it) that is at the core of this. Personally I think it's stupid and that all the hand wringing is creating a Streisand effect around it more dangerous than if they had just let it be in the first place.
  • Too late (Score:3, Insightful)

    by callahan2211 ( 1963904 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:15PM (#57205566)
    The code is already out there. Ultimately, the SCOTUS will rule that code is free speech.
    • Ultimately, the SCOTUS will rule that code is free speech.

      Next time you're visiting the future in the time machine, bring back the sports page!

  • Oh c'mon (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:15PM (#57205570)

    it needlessly endangered our children, our loved ones and our men and women in law enforcement.

    I would so much rather a criminal attempt a public shooting with a flimsy piece of shit that's as likely to explode in his hand as it is to hurt someone else than with a rifle with a modified lower receiver. These stupid trinkets are not an issue, actual firearms are easier and cheaper to obtain than a damn 3D printer. Priorities, people.

    • personally I think the bigger issue is the moron kids that will think it is cool and make one, the inevitable blowing up in your face problem rather than the mass shootings.
    • I would so much rather a criminal attempt a public shooting with a flimsy piece of shit that's as likely to explode in his hand as it is to hurt someone else than with a rifle with a modified lower receiver. These stupid trinkets are not an issue, actual firearms are easier and cheaper to obtain than a damn 3D printer. Priorities, people.

      The people trying to block this are fully aware of their priorities. This is not about a plastic gun that will likely fail after the first shot. This is about people making firearms at home without serial numbers. This technology is one small step from people mass producing firearms with machines and tooling that cost less than some people spend on a TV set.

      I can already see people making a working metal firearm with a common 3D printer. It's called investment casting:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      Th

  • by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:16PM (#57205580)

    preliminary injunction continuing a prohibition on the Trump administration proposal to make available blueprints for so-called ghost guns, untraceable weapons

    The Trump administration makes no such proposal to make available blueprints for so-called ghost guns.

    Defense distributed plans to do this all on their own; The administration simply acknowledges the rule of law that
    under the constitution that congress is not allowed to have a prior restraint on the release to 1st amendment Free Speech rights;
    that is, the US government has no lawful authority to interfere with Defense Distributed publishing plans.

    The same is true of the states as well; the mere fact that they found a judge to issue an unlawful order restraining the
    publication does not mean that it is the Trump Administration's preference that DD release their plans, let-alone a proposal.

    • It might seem obvious to most that written content on a website is protected free speech. Others make the argument that it's the same thing as yelling "fire!" in a movie theater and not protected free speech.
      • by mysidia ( 191772 )

        Others make the argument that it's the same thing as yelling "fire!" in a movie theater

        and not protected free speech.

        ALL speech is protected speech. The first amendment doesn't say "shall not abridge ..... EXCEPT (something)"

        Yelling "Fire" in a theatre is not protected because yelling ANY WORD in a theatre is not allowed -- the restriction is not one regarding
        the content of a message --- The word "Fire" in particular is not restricted, but the act of yelling a word or sig

    • by mentil ( 1748130 )

      Note the tortured wording to try to lay responsibility directly at the feet of Trump. He's become the nation's whipping boy, apparently.

    • preliminary injunction continuing a prohibition on the Trump administration proposal to make available blueprints for so-called ghost guns, untraceable weapons

      The Trump administration makes no such proposal to make available blueprints for so-called ghost guns.

      The term "ghost gun" gets tossed about so much that it's definition seems to keep changing, much like "net neutrality" and "assault weapon". I've seen "ghost gun" defined as a firearm lacking a serial number that can be traced back to who made it, w

  • Politicians are such idiots, a bunch of Granny Smiths. All that data is out there available as torrents, etc. Everyone who wanted it now has it, anyone new who wants it can just download the info elsewhere.
  • by pecosdave ( 536896 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:23PM (#57205650) Homepage Journal

    The AK-47 is way ahead of these on the open-source fire arm bandwagon. [wired.com] The Trump administration is sticking with what the constitution says, this activist judge and all the me-too's from elsewhere are virtue-signaling their left wing stances.

    This is a combined 1st and 2nd amendment issue - shutting it down is violating both, I don't care what the laws of non-U.S. countries are. It's not our job to enforce the laws of other countries, if they don't want their people getting what's on U.S. servers it's their job to block their users, not ours.

  • This whole case so much reminds me of the PGP and DeCSS cases, and if printing them in books was protected speech or not.

    • This whole case so much reminds me of the PGP and DeCSS cases, and if printing them in books was protected speech or not.

      I still have my "This T-Shirt is a Munition" shirt, with the machine-readable RSA algorithm barcodes on it.

  • 2 pipes, one pipe cap, one nail, solder, heat source, drill + ammunition: a shotgun.

    I think it's equally hard to protect against "ghost guns" as against Spectre. Anybody that can make a working weapon using a normal 3D printer can make one anyway IMO/IME. Sensitive basterds those glorified hot plastic squirters...

  • Doesn't matter... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Karmashock ( 2415832 ) on Monday August 27, 2018 @05:52PM (#57206776)

    ... The technology is inherently uncontrollable. They can't stop pictures of naked children getting raped and you think you're going to stop gun blueprints? You can't stop pirated video games or bomb recipes...

    This cannot be stopped.

    All the judges and lawyers are doing is demonstrating their impotence.

    It cannot be stopped.

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