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Social Networks

Wikipedia Co-founder Slams Mark Zuckerberg, Twitter and the 'Appalling' Internet (cnbc.com) 97

Larry Sanger, who co-founded Wikipedia in 2001, is not happy with how the internet has evolved in the nearly two decades since then. From a report: "It's appalling frankly," he said in an interview with CNBC this week. Sanger's main gripe is with big social media platforms, especially Facebook and Twitter. These companies, he says, exploit users' personal data to make profits, at the expense of "massive violations" of privacy and security. "They can shape your experience, they can control what you see, when you see it and you become essentially a cog in their machine," he said. Sanger launched a "social media strike" this week to draw attention to his concerns.

In a "Declaration of Digital Independence" published on his personal blog, he said "vast digital empires" need to be replaced by decentralized networks of independent individuals. [...] Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg has responded to seemingly endless concerns about privacy and security on the platform with a new vision for the company, highlighting measures like encrypted messaging. Sanger questioned whether Zuckerberg's intentions are "sincere" and blasted the Facebook executive for abusing the company's power online. "The internet wouldn't have been created by people like Mark Zuckerberg, or any of the sort of corporate executives in Silicon Valley today," he said. "They wouldn't be capable, they don't have the temperament, they're too controlling. They don't understand the whole idea of bottom up."

Social Networks

Wikipedia Co-Founder Calls For a Social Media Strike July 4-5 (larrysanger.org) 138

Wikpedia co-founder Larry Sanger is also Slashdot reader #936,381.

He has an announcement: "Humanity has been contemptuously used by vast digital empires," says my new Declaration of Digital Independence, which you can sign. So I'm calling a massive social media strike for July 4-5 to raise awareness of the possibility of decentralizing social media, which is wildly popular whenever proposed.

Read the FAQ use the resources to learn and spread the word far and wide. Look for lots of news about this soon. And get ready! Maybe we can make a long-held geek dream finally come true.

Programming

Early Soyuz Spacecraft Had a Peculiar User Interface, Says Developer Charles Simonyi (ieee.org) 104

Tekla Perry writes: When WYSIWIG pioneer Charles Simonyi went to space, he couldn't but help notice the awkward user interface on the rocket's control panel. It was a case of legacy systems, not wanting to change training and documentation, and an emulator that ran Unix on a 386 chip, he reported during a recent discussion on space software held at the Computer History Museum. "They liked the older chips because of radiation resistance and the feature set," he pointed out, noting how operation of the virtual interface was trickier than it seemed. "There are rows and columns," he said, "and you move the cursor over the button and use another button to push the virtual button."

"On the right side," he said, "there are these windows that are numbers you type in by pushing virtual buttons below them. You use the cursor keys to go to the virtual buttons then push an entry button that is virtual." He added: "You can see that even as the technology changes, they want to keep as many things the same as possible."
Software

German Regulator Says It Discovered New Illegal Software On Daimler Diesels (arstechnica.com) 73

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Over the weekend, Germany's auto regulator told Daimler that it would have to recall 42,000 Mercedes-Benz diesel vehicles after the group discovered illegal software on the cars that would reduce the effectiveness of the emissions-control system. Daimler said Sunday night that it would take a one-time charge of hundreds of millions of euros against the upcoming quarter's earnings to deal with the new accusations, but it disputed the government regulator's determination that the software in question was illegal. According to the Wall Street Journal, Daimler plans to formally object to the claims.

Today, the Daimler vehicles in question are Mercedes-Benz-brand vehicles that are only sold in the EU. According to a WSJ source, the issue relates to a coolant thermostat in the cars that protects parts of the engine. The related software is found on vehicles made between 2012 and 2015. The WSJ says the type of coolant thermostat used on the diesel vehicles in question is generally found on cars with catalytic converters that don't use selective catalytic reduction, an emissions-reduction technique that uses urea to reduce nitrogen oxides to less-harmful forms. But the GLK 220 CDI 4MATIC Mercedes-Benz models that must be recalled do appear to use selective catalytic reduction.
The latest regulatory action is reminiscent of the accusations lobbed against VW Group in 2015, where the U.S. EPA accused the automaker of including illegal software on its diesel vehicles to ensure that the diesels would pass emissions limits imposed by the U.S.
Movies

Slashdot Asks: Does Anyone Still Like Godzilla? (rogerebert.com) 231

There's now a new $175 million remake of Godzilla: King of the Monsters. I loved it, Msmash walked out of it, and BeauHD didn't bother to go see it. The movie performed poorly at the box office, but I'm not the only person who still likes Godzilla. There's also a new anime version on Netflix. And critic Matt Zoller Seitz (once a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in criticism) is calling the new film "a frequently astounding movie... its imperfections are compensated by magnificence."

For all its crash-and-bash action, this is a real science fiction movie that goes to the trouble of not merely creating a world, but thinking about the implications of its images and predicaments. It cares what the people in it must feel and think about their situation, and how it might weigh on them every day even when they aren't talking about it amongst themselves. It's also suffused with a spiritual or theological awareness, and takes it all as seriously as recent DC films took their comparisons of caped wonders to figures from the Old Testament and ancient mythology...

[A]t the level of image, sound and music, "Godzilla: King of the Monsters" is a frequently brilliant film that earnestly grapples with the material it presents... It deploys state-of-the-art moviemaking tools to try to return audiences to a stage of childlike terror and delight. Arthur C. Clarke famously observed that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. This movie is magic.

No expense was spared. For fans of the franchise there was even a quick Easter egg about what happened to the Mothra twins when they grew up. And of course the film-makers included Blue Oyster Cult's "Godzilla" song in the closing credits -- an over-the-top remake featuring a chanting Japanese taiko drum group, members of the band Dethklok from Metalocalypse, and heavy-metal drumming legend Gene Hoglan. The film's composer called it "perhaps the most audacious piece of music I have ever produced, jammed to the breaking point...It is complete musical madness."

But what it all for nothing? Leave your own thoughts in the comments.

Does anyone still like Godzilla?
Operating Systems

Ask Slashdot: Should All OSs Ship With a Programming Language Built In? 307

dryriver writes: If anybody remembers the good old Commodore 64, one thing stood out about this once popular 8-bit computer -- as soon as you turned it on, you could type in BASIC (Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) and run it. You didn't have to install a programming language, an IDE and all that jazz. You could simply start punching code in, and the C64 would execute it. Now that we live in a time where coding is even more important and bankable than it was back in the 1980s, shouldn't operating systems like Windows 10 or Android also come with precisely this kind of feature? An easy-to-learn programming language like the old BASIC that greets you right after you boot up the computer, and gives you unfettered access to all of the computer's hardware and capabilities, just like was possible on the C64 decades ago? Everybody talks about "getting more people to learn coding" these days. Well, why not go the old C64 route and have modern OSs boot you straight into a usable, yet powerful, coding environment? Why shouldn't my Android phone or tablet come out of its box with a CLI BASIC prompt I can type code into right after I buy it from a store?
Music

We Won't Be Listening To Music in a Decade According To Vinod Khosla (techcrunch.com) 246

In the future, we won't be listening to our favorite bands or artists, we'll be listening to custom made sounds that are tailored to our mood. At least, that's what billionaire venture capitalist Vinod Khosla believes. From a report: "I actually think 10 years from now, you won't be listening to music," is a thing venture capitalist Vinod Khosla said onstage today during a fireside chat at Creative Destruction Lab's second annual Super Session event. Instead, he believes we'll be listening to custom song equivalents that are automatically designed specifically for each individual, and tailored to their brain, their listening preferences and their particular needs.
Power

US Report Finds Sky Is the Limit For Geothermal Energy Beneath Us (arstechnica.com) 154

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Geothermal power sources come in many forms, and they're typically much more subtle than steam shooting out of the ground. In reality, geothermal energy could be a big player in our future mix. That is made clear by the U.S. Department of Energy's recently released "GeoVision" report. The report follows similar evaluations of wind, solar, and hydropower energy and leans on information from national labs and other science agencies. It summarizes what we know about the physical resources in the U.S. and also examines the factors that have been limiting geothermal's deployment. Overall, the report shows that we could do a whole lot more with geothermal energy -- both for generating electricity and for heating and cooling -- than we currently do.

There are opportunities to more than double the amount of electricity generated at conventional types of hydrothermal sites, where wells can easily tap into hot water underground. That's economical on the current grid. But the biggest growth potential, according to the report, is in so-called "enhanced geothermal systems." These involve areas where the temperatures are hot but the bedrock lacks enough fractures and pathways for hot water to circulate freely -- or simply lacks the water entirely. Advancing enhanced geothermal techniques alone could produce 45 gigawatts of electricity by 2050. Add in the more conventional plants, and you're at 60 gigawatts -- 26 times more than current geothermal generation. And in a scenario where natural gas prices go up, making geothermal even more competitive, we could double that to 120 gigawatts. That would be fully 16 percent of the total projected 2050 generation in the U.S.
The report also estimates that installations of traditional ground-source heat pumps, which circulate fluid through loops in the ground to provide cooling in the summer and heating in the winter, could be increased 14 times over, to 28 million homes by 2050, "covering 23 percent of national residential demand." When factoring in the limitations for how quickly the market could realistically change, the number only goes down to 19 million homes -- still a massive increase.

Meanwhile, district heating systems, where a single, large geothermal installation pipes heat to all the buildings in an area, could be more widely deployed to more than 17,000 locations, covering heating needs for 45 million homes.
Java

'Java Web Start Is Dead. Long Live Java Web Start!' (openwebstart.com) 62

An anonymous reader reminded us about the open source reimplementation of Java Web Start, a framework originally developed by Sun Microsystems that allowed users to more easily run Java applications in an applet-like sandbox using a web browser.

From OpenWebStart.com: Java Web Start (JWS) was deprecated in Java 9, and starting with Java 11, Oracle removed JWS from their JDK distributions. This means that clients that have the latest version of Java installed can no longer use JWS-based applications. And since public support of Java 8 has ended in Q2/2019, companies no longer get any updates and security fixes for Java Web Start.

This is why we decided to create OpenWebStart, an open source reimplementation of the Java Web Start technology. Our replacement will provide the most commonly used features of Java Web Start and the JNLP standard, so that your customers can continue using applications based on Java Web Start and JNLP without any change.

Red Hat is apparently involved in its parent project, IcedTea-Web, which it distributes as part of their Windows OpenJDK distribution.
Power

The Lost History of Sodium Wiring 111

Long-time Slashddot reader Rei writes: On the face of it, sodium seems like about the worst thing you could make a wire out of — it oxidizes rapidly in air, releases hot hydrogen gas in water, melts at 97.8 degrees Centigrade, and has virtually no tensile strength. Yet, in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Nacon Corporation did just that — producing thousands of kilometers of high-gauge sodium wiring for electrical utilities — and it worked surprisingly well.

While sodium has three times the (volumetric) resistivity of copper and nearly double that of alumium, its incredibly low density gives it a gravimetric resistivity less than a third of copper and half of alumium. Priced similar to alumium per unit resistivity (and much cheaper than copper), limitless, and with almost no environmental impact apart from its production energy consumption, sodium wiring proved to be much more flexible without the fatigue or installation damage risks of alumium. The polyethylene insulation proved to offer sufficient tensile strength on its own to safely pull the wire through conduits, while matching its thermal expansion coefficient. The wiring proved to have tamer responses to both over-current (no insulation burnoff) and over-voltage (high corona inception voltage) scenarios than alumium as well. Meanwhile, "accidental cutting" tests, such as with a backhoe, showed that such events posed no greater danger than cutting copper or alumium cabling. Reliability results in operation were mixed — while few reliability problems were reported with the cables themselves, the low-voltage variety of Nacon cables appeared to have unreliable end connectors, causing some of the cabling to need to be repaired during 13 years of utility-scale testing.

Ultimately, it was economics, not technical factors, that doomed sodium wiring. Lifecycle costs, at 1970s pricing, showed that using sodium wiring was similar to or slightly more expensive for utilities than using alumium. Without an unambiguous and significant economic case to justify taking on the risks of going larger scale, there was a lack of utility interest, and Nacon ceased production.
Games

EverQuest's Long, Strange 20-Year Trip Still Has No End in Sight (arstechnica.com) 144

The world has immensely changed since 1999, when a company in Southern California launched an online game called EverQuest that would go on to serve as the model for many more titles to come in the massively multiplayer online RPG (MMORPG) space. And unlike many games that sought to replace it over the years, this one is still going strong. ArsTechnica has a long-form piece on the old game, its journey and what it has evolved into now. An excerpt from the story: This sword-and-sorcery-based game was developed by a small company, 989 Studios, but it eventually reached its pinnacle under Sony Online Entertainment after SOE acquired that studio roughly a year after the game's launch. Today, EQ marches on with a dedicated player base and another developer, Daybreak Games, at the helm. I've been a dedicated player since the early days, and others like me would likely acknowledge the game peaked early. A variety of factors have whittled down the once-mighty player base since: many just simply walked away, either busy with life or quit because it took up too much time. The impact of World of Warcraft over time is also undeniable.

But while it's no longer a leading game in the MMO space by any stretch (WoW does hold that title), today's EQ retains a small but dedicated fanbase whose members complain as much as they praise it. And in an era where most games have a shelf life of four to six months, EQ has officially spanned four presidential administrations largely off that kind of support. [...] The game still has a trickle of new players, according to Longdale, but it's understandably hard to attract a whole new generation of young players to a DirectX 9 game with 15-year-old player models and a broken Z-axis (that's correct, you can't go straight up and down in EQ like in WoW) where solo play is darn near impossible.

Encryption

What Would Happen If All Encryption Could Be Broken? (wikipedia.org) 316

"What would happen, or what should happen, if tomorrow a trivial method was discovered for Prime Factorization?" asks Slashdot reader medv4380: By trivial I mean an algorithm that runs in relatively constant time that could factor a number like 2737631357921793461914298938174501291 relatively instantly on most modern hardware today. And that even increasing the bit length wouldn't slow it down much. How much chaos would result if such a method were revealed tomorrow with little warning?

Keeping it a secret only means that others may have long ago exploited the method at the expense of others. Should proof be presented without revealing the method, to reduce the impact, and who should be told first if at all?

Slashdot reader Shikaku sees a real possibility of this actually happening when quantum computers are developed, adding that quantum-resistant encryption "is an ongoing experiment."

But if development lags -- what would happen if all encryption could be broken?
Communications

The Invention of USB, 'The Port That Changed Everything' (fastcompany.com) 231

harrymcc shares a Fast Company article about "the generally gnarly process once required to hook up peripherals" in the late 1990s -- and one Intel engineer who saw the need for "one plug to rule them all." In the olden days, plugging something into your computer -- a mouse, a printer, a hard drive -- required a zoo of cables. Maybe you needed a PS/2 connector or a serial port, the Apple Desktop Bus, or a DIN connector; maybe a parallel port or SCSI or Firewire cable. If you've never heard of those things, and if you have, thank USB.

When it was first released in 1996, the idea was right there in the first phrase: Universal Serial Bus. And to be universal, it had to just work. "The technology that we were replacing, like serial ports, parallel ports, the mouse and keyboard ports, they all required a fair amount of software support, and any time you installed a device, it required multiple reboots and sometimes even opening the box," says Ajay Bhatt, who retired from Intel in 2016. "Our goal was that when you get a device, you plug it in, and it works."

It was at Intel in Oregon where engineers made it work, at Intel where they drummed up the support of an industry that was eager to make PCs easier to use and ship more of them. But it was an initial skeptic that first popularized the standard: in a shock to many geeks in 1998, the Steve Jobs-led Apple released the groundbreaking first iMac as a USB-only machine. The faster speeds of USB 2.0 gave way to new easy-to-use peripherals too, like the flash drive, which helped kill the floppy disk and the Zip drive and CD-Rs. What followed was a parade of stuff you could plug in: disco balls, head massagers, security keys, an infinity of mobile phone chargers. There are now by one count six billion USB devices in the world.

The article includes a thorough oral history of USB's development, and points out there's now also a new reversible Type-C cable design. And USB4, coming later this year, "will be capable of achieving speeds upwards of 40Gbps, which is over 3,000 times faster than the highest speeds of the very first USB."

"Bhatt couldn't have imagined all of that when, as a young engineer at Intel in the early '90s, he was simply trying to install a multimedia card."
Wikipedia

The North Face Used Wikipedia To Climb To the Top of Google Search Results (adage.com) 105

An anonymous reader shares a report: When you first start planning a big trip, step one will likely happen at the Google search bar. Step two might be clicking onto the images of your target destination. The North Face, in a campaign with agency Leo Burnett Tailor Made, took advantage of this consumer behavior to keep its name top of mind with travelers considering an adventure sports excursion.

The brand and agency took pictures of athletes wearing the brand while trekking to famous locations around the world, including Brazil's Guarita State Park and Farol do Mampimptuba, Cuillin in Scotland and Peru's Huayna Picchu. They then updated the Wikipedia images in the articles for those locations so that now, the brand would appear in the top of Google image search results when consumers researched any of those locations -- all done for a budget of zero dollars. "Our mission is to expand our frontiers so that our consumers can overcome their limits. With the 'Top of Images' project, we achieved our positioning and placed our products in a fully contextualized manner as items that go hand in hand with these destinations," explained Fabricio Luzzi, CEO of The North Face Brazil in a statement.

According to the agency, the biggest obstacle of the campaign was updating the photos without attracting attention of Wikipedia moderators to sustain the brand's presence for as long as possible, as site editors could change them at any time. The "hack" worked, at least for a while, evident in a quick Google search of some of the places mentioned in the campaign's case study video.
Further reading: Wikimedia is not pleased.
Space

Brown Dwarf Atmospheres As The Potentially Most Detectable And Abundant Sites For Life 79

RockDoctor writes: Yet another provocative paper emerges onto Arxiv from Harvard's Lingam and Loeb. Today they estimate the volume of space occupied by habitable zones (regions where liquid water is stable) in brown dwarf not-quite stars. They find that it could be orders of magnitude greater than the volume in the atmospheres of Earth-size planets. Brown dwarfs are masses of gas which are too small to sustain nuclear fusion (so, they're not stars), but can have a brief period of fusion of deuterium or lithium shortly after formation (so they're not planets; the boundary size is under debate). After this burst of energy, they slowly cool, for billions of years. This leads to a large volume of the star's outer body -- or atmosphere -- with potentially attractive temperature and pressure. If the brown dwarf is orbiting with a larger star, there may be enough light to allow photosynthesis. Supply of chemicals is uncertain, but not impossible.

While this paper is speculative, the prospects for detecting such life by spectroscopy are plausible with observational instruments being designed at the moment. Previous work on abiogenesis and the origin(s) of life has speculated that life could persist in the atmospheres of Venus and Jupiter, using comparable pressure-temperature arguments. In this respect, the proposal is more conventional.
Books

Neal Stephenson Says Social Media Is Close To A 'Doomsday Machine' (pcmag.com) 59

PC Magazine interviewed Neal Stephenson about his new upcoming book Fall; Or, Dodge in Hell, as well as "the digital afterlife, and why social media is a doomsday machine." [Possible spoilers ahead]: The hybrid sci-fi/fantasy novel begins in the present day with Richard "Dodge" Forthrast, an eccentric multibillionaire who made his fortune in the video game industry. When a freak accident during a routine medical procedure leaves him brain-dead, his family is left to contend with his request to have his brain preserved until the technology exists to bring him back to life. The near-future world of Fall is full of familiar buzzwords and concepts. Augmented reality headsets, next-gen wireless networks, self-driving vehicles, facial recognition, quantum computing, blockchain and distributed cryptography all feature prominently. Stephenson also spends a lot of time examining how the internet and social media, which Dodge and other characters often refer to in Fall as the Miasma, is irrevocably changing society and altering the fabric of reality...

Q: How would you describe the current state of the internet? Just in a general sense of its role in our daily lives, and where that concept of the Miasma came from for you.

Neal Stephenson: I ended up having a pretty dark view of it, as you can kind of tell from the book. I saw someone recently describe social media in its current state as a doomsday machine, and I think that's not far off. We've turned over our perception of what's real to algorithmically driven systems that are designed not to have humans in the loop, because if humans are in the loop they're not scalable and if they're not scalable they can't make tons and tons of money.

The result is the situation we see today where no one agrees on what factual reality is and everyone is driven in the direction of content that is "more engaging," which almost always means that it's more emotional, it's less factually based, it's less rational, and kind of destructive from a basic civics standpoint... I sort of was patting myself on the back for really being on top of things and predicting the future. And then I discovered that the future was way ahead of me. I've heard remarks in a similar vein from other science-fiction novelists: do we even have a role anymore?

Stephenson answered questions from Slashdot's reader in 2004, and since then has "spent years as an advisor for Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos' private space company Blue Origin," the article points out. He's also currently the "chief futurist" for Magic Leap -- though he tells his interviewer that some ideas go back much further.

Part of his new book builds on "a really old idea" from security researcher Matt Blaze, who in the mid-1990s talked about "Encyclopedia Disinformatica", which Stephenson describes as "a sort of fake Wikipedia containing plausible-sounding but deliberately false information as a way of sending the message to people that they shouldn't just believe everything that they see on the internet."
The Courts

Wikipedia To Fight Turkey Ban in European Human Rights Court (cityam.com) 93

Wikmedia, the foundation that runs Wikipedia said Thursday it had filed a lawsuit with the European Court of Human Rights to lift Turkey's two-year block on the online encyclopedia. From a report: Wikipedia said the ban violates fundamental freedoms, including the right to freedom of expression, which is guaranteed under the European Convention. The application, which was announced today during a press call, comes after Wikipedia's "continued and exhaustive" attempts to overturn the ban in Turkish courts failed to bear fruit. "Wikipedia is a global resource that everyone can be actively part of shaping," said Katherine Maher, Wikimedia executive director. "It is through this collective process of writing and rewriting and debate that Wikipedia becomes more useful, more comprehensive, and more representative. It is also through this process that we, a global society, establish a more comprehensive consensus on how we see the world." Turkey rolled out a blanket ban on Wikipedia citing national security concerns, in a move that has been widely condemned as a crackdown on free speech.
Facebook

'Treat Facebook Like Big Tobacco' (bloomberg.com) 94

Instead of regulating Facebook like a traditional telecom or media company, Bloomberg Opinion columnist Elaine Ou argues "Facebook should be regulated the same way as other vices like tobacco, alcohol and gambling": Facebook achieved outsize market share with an addictive product. A competing platform would need to do an even better job of exploiting psychological vulnerability to topple the incumbent. But the solution to a harmful industry dominated by a monopoly is not to foster equally harmful competitors; it's to reduce our dependence on the industry as a whole. Regulatory proposals should begin by protecting the youth. Facebook has a messaging app designed for kids under 13, but expecting the platform to protect children from harmful content is like asking the tobacco industry to make a kid-friendly cigarette. There's sort of a conflict of interest going on. If Silicon Valley execs refuse to let their own children use apps, perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to market their apps to other people's children either.

A lot of our complacency toward social media platforms stems from a lack of understanding of how they take advantage of emotional vulnerabilities to keep users engaged. This is not unintentional. And much like the tobacco companies that spent four decades denying a link between smoking and lung cancer, Facebook has been equivocal in acknowledging its own harmful effects. That brings us to another response outside the realm of antitrust: Tobacco companies are now required to disclose the contents of their products and open their processing facilities to inspection to reduce information asymmetry between the consumer and manufacturer. The source code behind Facebook's news feed should be made available for inspection as well. The nationwide decline in tobacco use was the result of decades of public awareness campaigns. The government should recognize social media for its psychologically exploitative properties and treat these companies the same way - with restrictions on youth targeting and with publicity about the risks.
In closing, Elaine suggests the anti-drug ads depicting a fried egg "can be repurposed to illustrate what your brain looks like at the hands of tech employees who like to 'move fast and break things.'"
Wikipedia

Wikipedia Is 'Doing Very Well Financially', Says Co-Founder Jimmy Wales (phys.org) 69

Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales said this week that the free online encyclopedia is in good financial shape, although increasing mobile phone use may cut into future donations. From a report: "We are doing very well financially," Wales told AFP ahead of Vivatech, a Paris tech fair for start-up companies. "We spend less than we bring in every year," he said. Wikipedia had "never been really good" at attracting major donors, with most of its money coming from people each giving around 15 euros ($16.80) in endowment money, he said. Wikipedia has published nearly 350 million articles, and has clocked up more than 190 billion views over the past 12 months. But Wales also said he feared a threat to Wikipedia's business model from increasing use of mobile devices coupled with personal assistant applications like Apple's Siri. "We see a rise of people using Wikipedia in ways that don't involve websites," he said. "We love that but you don't come to the website and see the (request for donations) banner. We haven't seen any impact yet but we worry, we think we should raise money."

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