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Tax-Free PC's in Pennsylvania 125

Posted by emmett from the you-have-a-friend dept.
tennisc writes "Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge proposes giving consumers two tax holidays on the purchase of new PC's. Wow! I hope all states take up the challenge!" Most of my friends in Philadelphia head down to Delaware to buy a computer, since there's no sales tax there, and it's only a 40-minute drive. This is still cool, though.
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Tax-Free PC's in Pennsylvania More

Tax-Free PC's in Pennsylvania

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  • Finally! (Score:3)

    by VAXGeek ( 3443 ) on Friday February 04, 2000 @06:56PM (#1304030) Homepage
    Now all those Amish can set up the Beowulf cluster of their dreams.
  • I wonder what exactly the definition of a "PC" is? A case, motherboard, and hard drive? Should the monitor's price be tax-free as well, if it's included? Keyboard? Mouse? Printer? What if I want to put it together myself? Also, some computers include some sort of ISP subscription - will that be tax-free as well?

    I think that the article is a bit vague...

    --

  • This tax-free day brought to you by the number 2, the letter P, and the word POLITICS!

    Politics (pa-li-ticks) adv. Taking advantage of voter support by helping yourself only, or helping yourself by helping others.

    This is peace of mind that there _ARE_ politicians (just one?) in this world that care about people other than themselves! Somebody send him a thank you note for this proposal! ;) ... of course, there will be many politicians who will strike this proposal six-feet into the ground -- all in an attempt to gather support for their "cause" (whatever that may be, no matter how selfish)

    Blah.. blah .blah..

    ?

  • No-tax PC's and monopolistic practices. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I think it is high time that American citizens (appologies to all non-Americans, please ignore this post) wake up and recognize the monopoly that is hiding under the name of "Government." The Government has repeatedly used heavy handed methods, and the "crafting of laws" favoring their monopoly on tax collection.

    They make it impossible for honest, greedy businesses to levy taxes on the American Population. They have shrouded themselves under the "veil of law" in order to protect their draconian method of denying competition. These strong-arm tactics have hit me--being a small business owner--and stopped me from introducing a new alcohol tax. (Tell me that isn't fear of competition). I call for the American people to stand up and demand increased competition for the levying and collection of taxes.

    This lifting tax for short periods of time amounts to a scheme to trick comsumers. Very soon that tax will come right back, along with the total lack of free competition.

    We all know Slashdoters hate monopolies, right?
  • Politics (pa-li-ticks) adv. Taking advantage of voter support by helping yourself only, or helping yourself by helping others.

    by helping others, but only those others that pay for your $10000 a seat dinner parties.

    But I guess this excludes this governor, who definitely gets a mark up in my book.

  • What do you mean, "state"? Delaware is one of those cough-drop sized countries in eastern Europe, right? Wasn't it the assassination of Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand of Delaware that started World War I? Or maybe I'm thinking of Serbia? Or the War of 1812? Christ, I just don't know.
  • *COUGH* First State *COUGH*
    *COUGH* WE OWN YOUR SALES-TAX PAYING ASS! *COUGH*

    Ahh yes, it's all coming back to me now. :-)
  • As my lab science teacher said, "I should hit you with something ugly!@#$"

    Cause that's horrible :)

  • Re:Finally! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    | 4|\/| 4|\| 3l|73 4|\/||5H H4X0R! 7H0U 4R7 0\/\/|\|3D!

  • Well, this was a joke my US History teacher told the class .. I refuse to take credit for this ill-humored joke ;) .. I give credit to my US History teacher and disclaim all heart attacks due to yourself not having a sense of humor below-sea-level.

    Heck, this is the teacher that told the class Eli Whitney's friends used to hide his licquor in his fields on his plantation. And he would come out and say "Hey, where's my cotton pickin gin?"

    He's also the same guy that told us: Thomas Jefferson was ALL FOR THE FARMER .. yes, that's right, he felt they were outstanding in their fields (out standing in their fields) :)

  • When you can order all the parts online, assemble them yourself, not pay any sales tax and not get ripped off paying too much for crappy hardware anyway.

    -W.W.
  • I would like to beg all legislators not to pass this bill I've got enough work as it is.
  • I live in West Chester, PA; south west of Philadelphia. I am about 20 minutes from Delaware so I usually head there for big equipment. This saves me the drive.
    I don't understand why he doesn't go all year. Granted, PA would lose a lot of money from the lost taxes. I think that it would gain more, though.
    Getting people to buy their computers in PA rather then "down south" will help the economy in the Philadelphia area. You can't imagine how many Philadelphians head to little D for big ticket items.
    Making it eaiser and less expensive for people to get computers is a good thing. Sometimes we /.ers forget that the Internet population is a VERY tiny percent of the US population, let alone the world. Heck, lots of people do not have cable, let alone Internet access. Technology shouldn't be for the haves and not the have nots; it should be for everyone. Isn't that what Open Source is all about?
    There is no reason that we do not have a $50 computer. I used to have a 386 that did everything I needed: games, programming, office apps, internet (such as it was at the time). These days, people might pay you $50 to haul a bunch of those systems as scrap. There are uses for these systems. Properly set up with good code, you can do a lot with these machines. So if a 386 can do that much, think about what $50.00 of computing power should be! And you thought that those $500 PCs where cheap...
  • Perhaps you would if were someone who wants a PC but does not have the time, inclination, or ability to build it from parts. Computers should not be just for geeks; they should be for all to use. Computers should not be cheap only for geeks; they should be inexpensive for all. Give power to the people and let's see where they go with it.
  • Let me get this straight...you don't want more sales? You don't want to the ability to discount your product without losing any money on it? You don't want to be competitive with your neighbor down south?
    Being busy at work is a good thing. If people at your company are not busy they fire people until the remaining people are busy. That is not good thing.
  • Republican Senator John McCain (R-AZ)is running for President. Republican Gov. Tom Ridge's (R-PA) name has been being bandied about as possible vice-presidential material for a while now.

    John McCain makes his opposition of internet-commerce tax a major plank in his platform. Gov. Tom Ridge comes out with a "tax holiday" for buying PC's...

    Hmmm....
  • Does anybody else notice that PA seems to be trying to actually gather more technologically-minded people in their area? Is there a reason? Are they not fulfilling their FBI/CIA quota now? Do they think that by drawing techies and hackers towards the city, they'll improve morale and also maybe up their FBI/CIA output levels? Does anybody think that this post is useless?
  • Why is it cool to have only computer purchases included in these tax holidays?

    The nice thing about an across-the-board sales tax is that it doesn't distort the economy; it just applies a small uniform drag to everything. Now the Governor of Pennsylvania is going to artificially assist the retail PC industry (relative to everything else). As if computer-related industries hadn't got enough artificial assistance in the last few years.

    --Seen

  • Judging from the content of his speech as well as his inability to insert a period in his run-on sentence, I assume he is only an "employee" and not an owner. As an employee, he likely doesn't get a percentage of sales or a bonus because of sales, and therefore it makes no difference whether he is busy selling peecees or just twiddling his thumbs -- either way, he's getting his normal hourly salary. Apart from having his company go belly-up from lack of revenue, there's no real reason why he should unselfishly care about the vollume of sales processed, especially if the company is running on a bare-bones staff as it is (as many such retailers are). His post is entirely valid, except for that little matter of punctuation.
  • Ya know, after I posted this, I got to thinking about sales taxes in general. You come near the point I came to, "...why he doesn't go all year...", but I say why don't all states drop the stupid sales taxes and start being fair in collecting income taxes? I mean, we aren't being taxed on the internet (mostly, and hopefully never), and local businesses are going to lose out in states that do have sales taxes. I can see why brick-and-mortar businesses are getting upset about the tax-free internet, but they have their anger directed in the wrong direction. It should be directed at the whole notion of sales taxes. Don't tell me that states will lose revenues, all they have to do is write realistic budgets and levy resonable income taxes! Quit taxing my already taxed dollars!!

  • I haven't noticed PA "trying to actually gather more technologically-minded people" but I have noticed that there are more there than in most areas. I think ESR was in Chester County for quite some time, but he still could be, for all I know. I'm on Long Island right now, and I can't seem to find many geeks. Everytime I go to Philly/King of Prussia area, I practically trip over tech jobs and big companies. I sure don't have any stats, but that's what I see...
  • I think this is probably an indicator that government is trying to get poor people on the net too. A study done recently indicates that the biggest determining factor of poor vs. middle-class in the US is the ownership of a PC. with tax incentives, this makes it a little bit easier for the less "fortunate" to purchase a box.

    You're right though - i don't think they can allow mainboards and processors, etc. etc. to fall under the same category. Then you run the risk of having to make very subjective determinations. You think our elected officials even know what a mainboard is???

    FluX
    If it's a penny for your thoughts, and you have to throw in your two cents - who's getting that other penny?
  • sez to "benefit those who would not otherwise be able to afford a computer". bah! a bone to the bougeuoise (sp?) masses to get them back to their roles as cogs in the great military-industrial complex we call the united states. seems school isn't enough preparation to get people to show up on schedule and perform mindless boring tasks for hours on end any more. kick 'em a tax "holiday".

    i wonder what computer companies he and his buddies own. nope. probably own part of some telecom co. 8.3million in tax losses == 83,000 new internet subscribers * $50/month. there it is right there! more welfare for the rich, wrapped up as a benefit to the middle class. what a crock!

    if a politician really wants to help computer users, how's about working on the abolition of software patents [linuxjournal.com].

    and yeah i am a part of the bougeuoise (sp? again) masses in this country. i just work for myself, or is it just the illusion of being self-employed? either way, don't start flaming up calling me no hypocrite. i ain't falling for the man's feeble attempt at the ole' jedi mind trick. =) not this time, anyway.

  • You are totally correct. Sales tax is kind of like someone making you pay for a service twice. In fact, that is exactly what it is. I don't understand why many businesses are able to provide similar services in some areas as the government without using all sorts of strange double payments. I just wish I had one tax (I really wish that I that didn't have any taxes...one can dream can't he? ;-) ) that I could figure out with pen and paper in about 2 minutes. What did I make? X. What do I owe? Y% * X. That's all. No loop holes, tax brackets, marriage penalties, limits or anything like that. Just one simple bill. I can handle that. Tax code? The tax code should be an Algebra 1 problem. That's all.
  • Tom Ridge is very outspoken about technology in general. He really wants to keep people who are experienced with computers in Pennslyvania. Too many people who know about technology leave Pennsylvania for better places to live suchas California, and that is what he refers to as the "Brain Drain."

    However, my question for him has always been, what is he really doing about it? For example, I am a student at Penn State and our computer science program accepts only 100 students per year. I think it is hypocritical to complain about a "brain drain" and then have an under-funded compsci program at the largest and most funded university in Pennsylvannia. Other universities that are near high-tech centers, generally have large computer science programs, ie. University of Maryland - College Park has a program with over 1000 students, which is only a gridlocked beltway drive away from Northern Virginia.

    Oh well... he just wants to get re-elected... hypocrite.

    Ben
  • This proposal, while mostly laudable, won't stop another type of flight to Delaware. I speak of laws of incorporation.

    Look at Delaware. Look at how many corporations are incorporated in Delaware. Notice anything? There are lots. Why is Dupont incorporated in Delaware? It certainly isn't because Delaware is rich in petroleum.

    The reason is Delaware, as a small state, can afford to have fewer or less restrictive laws on subjects like these, because what would have an insignificant economic effect on the economy of a larger state like Texas or even Pennsylvania would have a quite significant effect in Delaware. If one of the requirements for incorporating is to produce several hundred jobs in the local state, then that is actually a meaningful contribution to Delaware's economy.

    States like Pennsylvania can't compete with states like Delaware (just as Massachusetts can't compete with New Hampshire) on the subject of taxes. Being a small state means requiring much less tax revenue, which means it can get away with fewer taxes (of course). Whereas Pennsylvania might temporarily boost revenues or boost economic activity by temporarily lowering or eliminating taxes on items like PCs, Delaware can do so on a permanent basis without many reprocussions. This is inevitable.
  • It wouldn't really matter to me. I build my own computers, and I usually order the stuff from out of state so I don't have to pay tax anyways. Would definitely be nice if I ever did decide to buy a pre-made rig though...
  • I live in Chester County; according to his site [tuxedo.org] ESR currently lives in Malvern, about 15-20 minutes from where I live. There are tons of tech jobs out here. Our market is one of the top five in the US. I am getting ready to look for a new job and with all the possibilities job hunting becomes fun. Philadelphia is trying to attract more technology companies. So is Pittsburg.
    Who would have thought that Penn's Woods would become a technology haven?
  • "Most of my friends...it's only a 40-minute drive." Oh boy!! By the time you drive there, waste 3 hours or so of you life, fill the car full of gas, grab some white castles, and deal with your annoying friends...I bet saving the sales tax is worth it huh?

  • another tax break for the rich (Score:3)

    by djinn87 ( 24245 ) on Friday February 04, 2000 @09:00PM (#1304083)
    governor ridge once again tries to give a tax break to the rich while keeping up pretences of doing otherwise. you mean to tell me that the difference between someone buying and not buying a computer is the 6% tax and not the thousand dollar price tag? this only saves money for the people that can already afford computers.

    perhaps if gov. ridge offered this only saying, "we're losing money to delaware because everyone in eastern pennsylvania is buying their computers there," or, "if you mail-order a computer, there is no tax. this is to give local businesses a chance at that business," i wouldn't complain. but, the article clearly states, "The tax-free holidays will give families who cannot normally afford the $1,800 average cost of a computer and related equipment to purchase them without having to pay the state's 6 percent sales tax." there is no mention of the opportunity at buying lower cost machines because, of course, this isn't the market ridge is aiming to help. and, the 6% becomes more negligible at $300 ($18).

    if ridge were really interested in helping to give families that couldn't afford the computer a chance, perhaps he would say for two weeks the tax collected on computer sales would be alloted to families that can't afford, but are interested in buying. or maybe, for two weeks, the tax collected on computer sales will go to putting new computers in inner-city (or under-privileged) schools.

    *sigh*

    matt from pittsburgh, pa

  • You're absolutely right. I go to school [gannon.edu] in the hometown of Gov. Tom Ridge and just completed a semester long course on his political career. We met with him in person, and one of his prime goals is to bring the "rustbelt" areas in Pittsburgh into more modern times by attracting high technology firms. A Technology scholarship was just introduced that gave grants to college students under the stipulation that they would remain in Pennsylvania to work when they graduate. The "brain drain is pretty significant, so much so that the Secretary of Education himself has 4 out of 5 children living/working outside of PA. Ridge pretty much said that he wanted Pittsburgh to be the next Silicon Valley.
  • you don't pay a microsoft tax. Nuff said.
  • Let me clarify the retail markup on PCs is very, very low about 15 percent. The real profit is in extended service plans markup about 200 percent, now the people who swarm to buy a PC on no tax day are likely to be the same people who have never seen a PC or know anyone who has seen one but don't want the plan. So on the bare bones staff we have i've got enough work already.
  • It's no secret that Ridge, that failed miserably to get his school voucher plan passed. Even though he tried every scheme in the book, the people of Pennsylvania refused to let him do it. Ridge is now looking for a way to sound like the candidate, George W Bush that promises to give huge budget breaking tax cuts, even though most Americans feel it is more important to pay off the debt and preserve social security/medicare.

    There is a lot of talk about Ridge expecting to be
    George W. Bush running mate. However, Ridge, like Bush has not accomplished anything except turn Pennsylvania into the King of Trash, yes Pessnylvania takes in more trash from other states such as New York than any other state in the union. Ridge believes this is the best thing for our economy, while it forces people to move out to get away from all the landfills.

    Pennsylvania, like Texas are both doing well these days because the entire national economy is doing
    better than it ever has. Neither has new or onovative ideas that will work, as posted earlier,
    the 6% sales tax is NOT the reason people can't afford $2000 computers. However, it will get Ridge attention, and now he can say he is moving into the next millinium promoting technology...
    and some people will actually believe it

  • Does my employer's Sun Enterprise 10000 count as a PC? Would the Sun Ultra2 on my desktop count?

    Or is a PC defined in the popular sense - as a computer running Windows?
  • About a year ago the government in Sweden decided that to increase PC-usage in sweden we had to reduce prices. The consept works like this. The employers lease PCs to their employees for three years. Instad of paying cash for this to the employers the ammount of mony is drawn from the salery befor tax. this gives a downcut by 20 to 60 % depending on the tax you pay. It also reduces the "arbetsgivaravgiften" that the employers pays becouse he doesn't have to pay as much salery. This gives another 20 % discount. The ammount that is drawn from your salery is quite small so that the diffrnce in the wallet is about 15 $ a mounth. This caused a lot of people to buy PCs and after this the PC-market has inflated becouse almost nobody needs to buy a pc.
  • Beings that I am from Delaware, I know a lot about the state! I'd like to clear up some common misconceptions:
    • Incorporations: True, over half of the country's companies are incorporated here, but they do not have to have any employees here. Just pay an incorporation fee. Delaware is #1 in incorporations because of its worldwide recognized chancery court where corporate battles are fought and the favorable tax laws for incorporation.
    • Sales Tax: We don't pay sales tax, but we make up for it in other areas. Our state income tax is higher than surrounding states and property taxes are pretty steep too. There are other larger states with no sales tax around too, like Oregon and New Hampshire. People living in neighboring states therefore can benefit from their state's lower income taxes while still flocking to Delaware to buy their goods tax free.

    On the subject of sales taxes, I hate them. Buying stuff without a sales tax is a simple transaction. Many stores in Delaware don't price things in units finer than 5 cents and don't have to deal with pennies at all. Heck, I know some that all prices are multiples of 25 cents meaning their cash registers just have a few slots of quarters and the rest bills. Whenever I head out of state, I end up coming up with a pocket full of useless pennies.

    Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey lose a LOT of retail sales to Delaware. Delaware's northern malls, the Christiana Mall and Concord Mall rake in the dollars and their stores are among the best performers in their chains in many cases. The parking lots are full of out-of-state vehicles. Christiana Mall even has out of state tour buses coming in with shoppers from as far away as Virginia and New York.

    The PA Sales Tax break on computer purchases will be very nice for people in central and western PA, but I suspect most people in the Philadelphia area that want a computer have already come to Delaware to buy it.

    p.s. States with sales taxes require people buying stuff out-of-state to claim and pay the sales tax in their home state. Does anyone actually ever do this?!

    Which reminds me, on the subject of Internet Taxation, I've always wondered how it would apply to Delaware. We don't pay sales tax as it is, so why should we pay sales taxes on purchases made over the net? If other states push reciprocal taxation agreements for net purchases, I predict "e-companies" will flock to Delaware. Since Delaware has nothing to gain from reciprocal agreements, anything sold from an e-tailer in Delaware could technically remain tax free to the entire country.

  • Anyway, Philly is better but that place is more of a hole than Baltimore.

    Uh, excuse me...? &nbsp When was the last time you visited Philly? &nbsp I live there and travel to an itty bitty city like Baltimore all the time. &nbsp Baltimore's about 1/3rd the size and has a long way to go to before being anything like Philly.

    And regarding the Governor's announcement (first I heard of it), note that the Republican Convention is scheduled to be held in Philly this year... &nbsp Good timing, eh?
  • Incorporations: True, over half of the country's companies are incorporated here

    Including almost every major bank...

    The PA Sales Tax break on computer purchases will be very nice for people in central and western PA, but I suspect most people in the Philadelphia area that want a computer have already come to Delaware to buy it.

    Nah... we do mail order for almost EVERYTHING! &nbsp ;-) &nbsp Some of the biggest mail order places are just outside Philly (QVC, blah blah). &nbsp PA's got the 2nd oldest population in the U.S. behind Florida, and the little old ladies keep UPS in business big time. &nbsp The rest of us just go to Delaware to buy beer and Powerball lottery tickets. &nbsp ;-) &nbsp Some used to go to Jersey for the beer (lower sales tax) but then the Jesey state troopers started pulling people over on the bridge for having cases and cases of brew hangin' out the back of their trunks, so Jersey's off limits now... hee hee. &nbsp Remember - PA still has a "State Store" system....
  • <I>Why is Dupont incorporated in Delaware? It certainly isn't because Delaware is rich in petroleum. </I>

    Well, DuPont made all of its money initially from gunpowder. Not oil. Sure, it had that whole Conoco thing going for a while, but that's the past. On a side note, DuPont has always been a leader in, say, nylons. That Carruthers guy was pretty useful. And DuPont makes Kevlar (bullet-proof vests), Teflon (Kevlar-piercing bullets), and myriad other useful synthetics. So remember, the next time you think of DuPont, think of that magic word that people here in Delaware associate with DuPont: Downsize!

  • Left wing dogma (Score:3)

    by FallLine ( 12211 ) on Saturday February 05, 2000 @06:34AM (#1304104)
    Why must you left wing types always polarize issues as the "rich" and the "poor". You fail to realize that there are a whole lot more shades in between. In any case, %6 is %6. The "rich" that you speak about are hardly going to get up in arms paying 240 dollars on a 4000 dollar machine, particularly when you consider that those individuals likely to buy a high end machine, and pay a premium for the latest and greatest are likely to have significantly more disposable income than the "poor". You might question the governor's thought process here, but it's unfair to banter about those kind of words.

    Furthermore, I tire of all this crap about "computers in the classroom". When most of these inner city kids can't even read and write half decently, why are you worrying about whether or not they have computers? What about getting decent teachers first? Merely throwing money at the issue is not going to solve it. If anything, it distracts from the real problem.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • If you don't, you are guilty of tax fraud and will go to jail.

    Hold on a sec... there is a difference between "can go to jail" and "will go to jail". It's unlikely that the state government will send you to jail over a mail order computer game from Loki that you didn't pay them sales tax on. I suppose if you did something to piss off a person in power (that wasn't illegal) and they were looking for something to throw you in jail over, they might turn something like this up, but that's the only circumstance I can see anyone being jailed over something like this for.

    --
    linuxisgood:~$ man woman
  • I still have my Chester County Interlink account. I have had it for over five years. It is a great freenet and has some great people associated with it. A great gift to Chester County from ESR. Thanks!
    As for the drivers Mr. Anon E. Mus, they are going very well. You are now looked at a post from the co-creator of one of the fastest FibreChannel card/driver around!
  • Maybe I should have been more specific. When I said "hole" what I meant was "filthy stinking wretched scum hole."

    Yours, I suppose...

    Good riddance to you... We've witnessed the birth of a new Baltimoron...
  • and gnupc.com is based in PA too!

    And so is LinuxForce... just bought by Corel. &nbsp Must be the proximity to ESR... ;-)
  • I can't speak for the eastern portion of Pennsylvania, but ever since the steel industry fled western Pennsylvania the economy has been slow. Few have the extra money to "blow" on a PC. Very few in rural areas (which there are a lot of) have experience with computers making them rather intimidating. The idea of this plan isn't to give everyone a tax break on the machine of their dreams (Sparc, Alpha, etc.). The point of this is to make PC's just a little more affordable for the struggling folks. Giving young children the opportunity to become familier with and maybe develop an interest in computers they might not otherwise have. When people think of PA one of the first things that come to mind is the Amish population, who in our area don't use electricity of any sort. Gov. Ridge is trying to change the image popular image that PA is still stuck in the iron age by producing a "crop" of technically educated kids. PA has seen a large drop in population in the past few years partly because of educated people leaving due to the lack of high tech industry. Producing educated individuals is the first step to making an area appealing to an industry. Pittsburgh is trying to pick things up and are off to a slow but good start.
  • Why must you left wing types always polarize issues as the "rich" and the "poor".

    Why must people like you always characterize others as a "type"? &nbsp I doubt that anyone in the /. audience (or any other audience for that matter) can be described in such a narrow, political terms...

    When most of these inner city kids can't even read and write half decently

    Hmmm... your sentence structure leaves alot to be desired. &nbsp What do they say on /.? &nbsp Pot. Black. Kettle? &nbsp Making bold assumptions with nothing to back them up... Do you live in the Innercity&reg or are you just one of those dumbed down Geraldo/Jenny Jones-watching Americans who blindly believe the equally dumbed down media...

    What about getting decent teachers first? Merely throwing money at the issue is not going to solve it.

    I guess Good&reg teachers come for free nowadays, eh? &nbsp Wow! &nbsp That's an idea! &nbsp GNUteachers! &nbsp Opensource the people! &nbsp Free (as in beer) teachers for hire! &nbsp Hear hear!
  • I can't speak for the eastern portion of Pennsylvania, but ever since the steel industry fled western Pennsylvania the economy has been slow.

    I've travelled to Pittsburgh a number of times and considering what it was like before, it has made a remarkable recovery... If anything, the area is very scenic, with the city overlooking the 3 rivers and surrounded by beautiful hills. &nbsp I have found that when you mention this fact to Pittsburghers, they merely pause and say "Yeah... I guess you're right" &nbsp We gotta get you guys out of your shell-shocked state of mind! &nbsp Witness the medical/clinical industry that has taken root there! &nbsp Unfortunately, the Allegheny hospital fiasco and its fiscally foolish takeover and subsequent loss of a number of large, eastern PA hospitals, was something that will have repercussions for the future of the west and will surely cause a setback in the hospital industry in the state in general.

    When people think of PA one of the first things that come to mind is the Amish population

    Maybe that's what you hear over yonder, but over here in the east, we hear people ask about Hershey Chocolates...Mmmmmmm....

    PA has seen a large drop in population in the past few years partly because of educated people leaving due to the lack of high tech industry.

    That's because despite the Media&reg hype, PA's number one industry is agriculture. &nbsp You step one block outside of Philadelphia and you hit farms. &nbsp Hell... I grew up learning about the different types of cows in elementary school (and I mean, they would show you a picture and you had to identify the breed, eg., Gurnsey, Jersey, Holston, blah - anyone know the different types of cows off hand?) and I live in the damn city! &nbsp And NOT in the Midwest! &nbsp Philadelphia! &nbsp Imagine a little kid trying to learn how to spell Philadelphia, Pennsylvania ;-)
  • Yeah, I am a former psu compsci dropout too :), Along with two friends, one an exchange student on full scholarship who turned down the Fullbright scholarship and the other a salutatorian. Hmm.... go figure... if anyone is reading this, DO NOT go to Penn State for Compsci.

    Ben
  • Not necessarily.

    A law to that effect was passed in my state a few years ago. Everybody was supposed to fill out a special form as part of their state taxes, and send it in along with the taxes for stuff they bought via mail order.

    I don't remember all the details of why, but it wasn't long before the law was repealed... So legally in my state there is no requirement to pay taxes on out of state purchases.

  • Do what loads of people do. Find the PC you wants at the store, then mail order the sucker. Shipping is cheaper than tax, a lot of times..

    ---
  • Ridge is a moron who tries to appear as a technically adept person. Pennsylvania doesn't need tax free computers. Pennsylvania needs broadband access and more technical industries.

    There are no decent high tech industries here at all and without high speed access PA will never attract startups.

    Whoopie. A whole bunch of consumers with their tax-free computers and their ancient and slow dialup connections.

    state.pa.us? Sorry, remote host is not responding...
  • Normally I do not like to make sweeping generalizations. However, when I hear people utter loaded phrases (e.g., "governor ridge once again tries to give a tax break to the rich while keeping up pretences...") like that, I will give them a little taste of their own medicine. In other words, when someone resorts to that kind of language they are classifying themselves. If he merely disagreed with the Ridge's actions I would not attack him.

    So sue me, I use colloquial language on slashdot. *Gasp*. Speaking of black pots, "alot", eh?

    Certainly you wouldn't try and argue the results of public education in urban settings (though not exclusively urban) isn't a problem at all. Would you? You might debate the cause of the problem, but not the existence of the problem itself.

    As it happens to be, I know a few school administrators and teachers in a few large cities, namely, Seattle, Philadelphia, and LA. Most all would, and have, agreed with me. Furthermore, look at the damn statistics. The problem is self-evident to virtually anyone that knows what an education is, and is remotely familiar with the system. In addition, the teachers themselves have suprisingly mediocre test scores.

    Do I believe in Free Teachers? No. But I ask you this: Why is it that Catholic schools do a better job, under just about any measure, with significantly less money per head, in the same neighboorhoods, with essentially the same group of students? They pay their teachers less. They don't have a zillion and one adminstrators and counselors running around eating up resources. They don't have these impossible unions to deal with--so they're free from having to mandate things like teaching degrees (not to be confused with a real college education).

    To be perfectly honest, I spent most of my childhood in private school (though not all). I can tell you with absolute certainty that these teachers got paid far less than any public school teacher. This is true at all the private schools too, even the most "elite" (e.g., Andover, Exeter, Lakeside, Episcopal Academy, etc.). Yet these private schools generally attract and retain higher quality faculty. They don't require silly teaching degrees. Instead, they have teachers with mostly meaningful 4 year degrees at good schools. It's not about the money. In addition, it is a little known fact that most of these schools actually spend just (sometimes slightly more) as much per student than public schools.

    At one particular private school that I attended, we had worse facilities than many public schools, and certainly fewer computers. In addition, we also had less money per head (it was a growing school, without these secondary sources of financing that many schools enjoy). Guess what? We did every bit as well as the "elite" schools when it came down to it--certainly far better than the public schools. Many alumni are also working in the high tech sector and software industries. Call me old fashion, but I believe that a student who is educated traditionally (without any emphasis on computers) is far better equipped for the "information age" than these students at schools that pay a great deal of attention to these latest technologies, while neglecting the fundamentals. One reason for this is that, as we all know well, technology changes every day. You'll never be able to teach students the exact system that they'll be using 10+ years later. Instead, you should try to equip them with the tools to learn, like the ability to read a manual, the ability to think critically, the ability to teach yourself, etc.

    Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that money is not the answer for the public school system's ailments. You might try to argue that these private schools simply have more "professional" parents. It does not explain the success of the kids on scholarships at private schools. Nor does that explain the Catholic schools, even though their success isn't quite on par with the private (non-parochial) schools--it is still worlds better than public schools (to avert any flames, this does not include many of these wealthy suburban public schools). I've seen too much money wasted (In fact, I've already heard a few about wasted computer money from my friends at these schools). My concern is less my own wallet, than it is simply the fact that in worrying about computers excessively they inevitably get that much further from a solution.


  • I would like to beg all legislators not to pass this bill I've got enough work as it is.

    hey! you're that pimple-faced package checker from Best Buy, right?

    ======
    "Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16


  • Why is it cool to have only computer purchases included in these tax holidays?

    Since the plan favors the PC as an internet delivery device, I expect lawsuits based on unfair market interference will soon be filed by WebPC, WebTV, and those web-enabled refrigerator folks.

    ======
    "Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16


  • When I was a little kid (first or second grade or so) I thought "Arkansas" was pronounced "Our Kansas." This had special meaning for me because I believed, for whatever reason, that the state of Kansas belonged to some other country and that Arkansas belonged to us (meaning the United States.) I also believed that "Utah" was a nation-state like Vietnam where wars were being continually fought (to this day, the word "Utah" brings visions of air-raid bunkers to mind for no apparent reason.)

    What makes a person remember weird shit like this? :)

    Inbreeding.

    ======
    "Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16

  • Why is it that Catholic schools do a better job?

    I've heard these arguments a million times. How shall we count the ways?

    Private schools have students with dicipline problems? They can expel them. The state guarantees an education to all kids, so they end up in a public school.

    How many private schools have you seen lately that are funding remedial reading classes? That have entire classes for learning diabled students? That have real and severly physically disabled students in their schools.

    If an 8th grader who can't read wants to get into your private school, what do they do? You get the point.

    Not only that, it's hardly as if private schools do a better job for less money (which I'll agree they do) with a random sampling. The sample of who can afford to go to a private school (any private school) already skews the results of the claim since the pools that they are picking from is already more capable.
  • ummm, see subject

    he's probably not at the top of McCain's list ;)
  • Spend a little less time listening to Rage Against the Machine and and a little more time reading about what really happened.

    -uberfetus, philly native
  • I'm sorry, my last sentence was suppoesd to go with my first. I agree with you on the fact that Pittsburgh is making good progress. There aren't too many citys that I'd feel entirely safe walking around the streets downtown, alone at 2:00 in the morning. I live there during the week as a student and come home (about an hour north via I-79) on weekends. New schools (good ones) are popping up all over the place. Mostly I was talking about areas between Pittsburgh and Erie. New Castle for one used to be an industrial wonder. The main road from Pittsburgh to Erie ran through there. Then the steel mills closed and I-79 began diverting traffic away from the area and the city has suffered. Million dollar homes now located in the projects used for mental hospitals. It's a damn shame. True again, farming is the main industry in PA. The biggest programs in our high school were AG and Shop. However, it's not the only one. Though I'm not a native of the area I live just north of New Castle and see real potential there just waiting for a green light. Steel is dead here, never to return but you don't need to dig something out of the earth for knowledge. The technological resource is smart people. If enough people were interested, enough people educated, New Castle could really build a tech industry there. The people exist and the roadways exist, they just need money and direction. Then again, it may just be a stunt to get more people buying PCs with windows to boost M$ sales, but it might have some good side effects. NT on every government PC? Not for me thanks. If I ever offend with my remarks please know that I never intend to.
  • Are you going to tell me that the entire public school system has to be mediocre on the aggregate, merely because they can't be selective? What about Europe (though I do realize they're less "forgiving" in many ways than American education, atleast if you want to follow a particular path)? Japan? You'd have to ignore their success. What about American public schools of yesterday? Why are our averages slipping? I don't buy that our children are just getting dumber. Nor do I believe Americans to be any dumber other nations.

    In regards to private schools, most are not nearly as selective as is widely percieved. Granted, many private schools are somewhat selective, atleast when it comes to remedial students. To write it off their success to the natural intelligence of the students is a mistake. Furthermore, it would be difficult to claim that the private schools have a lock on "intelligent" students--or even most of them. Quite the contrary infact, when it comes to "natural intelligence", the best at private schools are no better than the best at public school. Also, there are selective public schools. The charter schools are selective, yet they've only had limited success.

    On the other hand, I do think the fact that public schools have to find seats for all students is a contributing factor. But it is not a sufficient excuse. It is the way the public schools react to these children that compounds the problem. If a kid is acting up, you kick him out of the class. You do what you need to do, but it's not fair to allow a couple bad eggs to drag the entire class. I realize that the teachers and the adminstration have their hands tied to some degree, but that is part of the problem.

    I personally feel that cause of the majority of the "bad" / "dumb" children is more the result of developmental problems (nuture, not nature) than it is genetic problems. Furthermore, I think that schools have a hell of a lot more say about this than they're given credit. If you allow students to fall hopelessly behind and graduate them perpetually, regardless of their learning the material or not, they're going to be hopelessly behind come 10th grade (I believe maybe even permanently). I believe most of these kids can be sufficiently educated before they reach that point though. Again, I'd refer you to most of Western Europe, Japan, and even those few good public schools in American suburbia (though you can argue their parents are "better" influences).

    In any case, the public schools have many different problems to contend with. I do not believe more funding is a solution to these problems. Likewise, if these children can't handle even the most basic of an education, I don't see how anyone can reasonably expect them to be productive with computers. I'm not an "expert", for whatever that is worth, but I know this much to be true....

  • Oh! Well, when you put it that way...
  • I guess we're about to get moderated to (-1,Offtopic) but...

    Normally I do not like to make sweeping generalizations. However, when I hear people utter loaded phrases (e.g., "governor ridge once again tries to give a tax break to the rich while keeping up pretences...") like that, I will give them a little taste of their own medicine. In other words, when someone resorts to that kind of language they are classifying themselves. If he merely disagreed with the Ridge's actions I would not attack him.

    People often utter what I consider "sound bites" like that one, and others like "read my lips, no new taxes" and crap like that. &nbsp Someone came up with it (usually a politico) and it "sounded good". &nbsp Doesn't necessarily mean they're left wingers when they utter it back.

    So sue me

    Careful what you wish for, I'm from the city known for the "Philadelphia Lawyer"... &nbsp ;-)

    Certainly you wouldn't try and argue the results of public education in urban settings (though not exclusively urban) isn't a problem at all. Would you? You might debate the cause of the problem, but not the existence of the problem itself.

    Your initial stated characterization was that of an American problem (as in U.S - no offense to our northern or southern neighbors), that was predominately urban-based. &nbsp The "dumbing down of America" is nationwide - everywhere... city, suburbs, small town, rural. &nbsp How can we expect children to even deal with high tech when they're being drugged up with Ritalin? &nbsp Something that has become more and more prevasive in the 'burbs... &nbsp How can a computer compete with the idiot box (TV for those younger than 30) or Nintendo? &nbsp You can attend an Episcopal Academy or Andover or whatever, and your parent's $$$ can guarantee that you pass on to the next grade (even though you may have cut maybe 50% of you classes - the more they "donate" to the school, the better your chances are of not being expelled - this is REALITY)... &nbsp and this is whether you have the smarts or not.... &nbsp sadly no different than when an idiot teacher in a public school promotes a barely functional illiterate. &nbsp Ever heard of Hampshire College in Belchertown, MA (not far from Amherst)? &nbsp Probably the costliest private college in the U.S. and containing the most bizarre group of students you could ever meet - many are mentally not all there. &nbsp Believe me. &nbsp I went to college in that "5-college" area.

    Do I believe in Free Teachers? No. But I ask you this: Why is it that Catholic schools do a better job, under just about any measure, with significantly less money per head, in the same neighboorhoods, with essentially the same group of students?

    But tell me this... &nbsp why is it that Catholic schools are also closing shop left and right? Disappearing? &nbsp Right. &nbsp Lack of $$$.

    You can't compare apples and oranges. &nbsp Before 1911, the only ones "educated" in this country were done so in "private" or "religious-based" institutions. &nbsp As a previous poster stated, you had better not be disabled or poor. &nbsp Thus before 1911, you had a country with nearly a 90% illiteracy rate. &nbsp Enter public education. &nbsp It ain't perfect, but it helped make the U.S. what it is today. &nbsp And I can say this being a 5th generation college graduate educated in the best of the public schools. &nbsp I agree that the schools have gone down considerably over the past 30 years as the 60's wackos decided to try experimental teaching methods such as the "open classroom" crap and "new math" mess, but now that more parents are starting to get involved again in a child's education (note that in the past 10 years, something like 70% of 2-parent families have both parents working, so it's rough), I think there will be a steady shift upwards again.
  • Mostly I was talking about areas between Pittsburgh and Erie. New Castle for one used to be an industrial wonder. The main road from Pittsburgh to Erie ran through there. Then the steel mills closed and I-79 began diverting traffic away from the area and the city has suffered. Million dollar homes now located in the projects used for mental hospitals. It's a damn shame. True again, farming is the main industry in PA. The biggest programs in our high school were AG and Shop. However, it's not the only one. Though I'm not a native of the area I live just north of New Castle and see real potential there just waiting for a green light. Steel is dead here, never to return but you don't need to dig something out of the earth for knowledge. The technological resource is smart people. If enough people were interested, enough people educated, New Castle could really build a tech industry there. The people exist and the roadways exist, they just need money and direction.

    What this state needs, other than the a half-assed effort such as a "no-tax for computers day" so the Governor can posture at the Repulican National Convention this summer, is a decent P.R. group who can go to Silicon Valley and say "Look... we've got good inexpensive housing, lots of beautiful scenic land for building, a relatively low state income tax, and a pool of talent just waiting to work for you! &nbsp Leave overblown California and Nevada and Arizona (and Redmond too... snicker) and come to Pennsylvania!". &nbsp I rather like have something like that than that corny old "You've got a friend in Pennsylvania" mentality... &nbsp ;-)

    NT on every government PC? Not for me thanks.

    Not to worry... the gov't is too damn cheap to spend $$ on something as stable&reg as NT on every PC. &nbsp Winblows 95 is good enough...!

    If I ever offend with my remarks please know that I never intend to.

    Accckkkk! &nbsp You used the word NT (is that a word?) in a sentence! &nbsp But then I did too, so I guess I offended myself.... (gurgle)

    ;-)
  • No, your girlfriend's. You dumb turd!


    (Score:-2,Troll)
  • There are no decent high tech industries here at all

    Actually, although it might not be considered "high tech", we have (along with Jersey) one of the highest concentrations of the pharmaceutical drug industry right here...

    and without high speed access PA will never attract startups.

    I have broadband access - thanks to Comcast cable! &nbsp If you wait just a little longer, they may buy up your local cable provider, become a monopoly in the state, and get cable modem access out to you! &nbsp Seems Comcast and Time-Warner/AOL are in the serious "buy everything in sight business"... &nbsp I have no complaints. &nbsp My cable modem ROCKS!

    state.pa.us? Sorry, remote host is not responding...

    Yeah... &nbsp and speaking about that... &nbsp For all you non-Pennsylvanians... &nbsp note that our illustrious state is allegedly the first state to put the state's offical web address on our damn license plates... &nbsp Can you believe this? &nbsp As if somehow that will attract high tech industry... Someone needs to get a damn grip....
  • *COUGH* First State *COUGH*

    Only 'cause we felt sorry for you and let you sign first ... So you OWE us! &nbsp Hee hee
  • $3000 which is a massive home machine for the average user would equal a savings of $180...most likeley they'll spend about $1800 on a machine, that is $108. I am just saying that for the time and effort to drive there, gas, etc...for the person who posted this, would not be worth their time unless they were buying high-end servers or their life was so pitiful they had nothing better to do with their time.
  • And just because someone duck walks and quotes the Mein Kampf doesn't mean they're necessarily Nazis either; that doesn't mean they deserve much better.

    Anyhow, in regards to education, I agree with you that standards are slipping across the board, and that it is unacceptable. However, the slippage that you see at private schools and good suburban schools is of a vastly different nature (and cause) than what is typified in most inner-city public schools. The source of the problem in private school is more a slow perversion from what an education is considered to be; instead of an outright loss of control (like many public schools). Most students graduating from private school have a decent shot at getting into a good college. They atleast conform to certain CURRENT social expectations (e.g., acceptable reading, writing, etc), that allow them to land professional jobs.

    Having been to numerous private schools (I've made a few moves), and being very familiar with many more, I can tell you that you're overstating the problem at private schools. First off, most children at private school don't have that kind of money, not to where even 5% of the parents are making significant donations. While I have seen a few cases of private schools extending slack to students of particularly wealthy students who donate, there is normally some sob story (BS) to accompany it, and it's relatively rare. I would not say it is a systemic problem by any means.

    In addition, i'd be the first to tell you that private school students are not exceptionally smart (on average, "genetically"). However, I will say that students' intelligence is essentially distributed the same way it is in the public schools. What sets these students apart from public school is not innate intelligence, it is their education system, and their approach to it. The approach i'm referring to is a certain desire to succeed, atleast within that particular framework (e.g., getting an A, for whatever that means). In other words, they're "upwardly mobile" or "professionally oriented".

    Most inner city (yes, yes, I know) public schools have problems through and through. From teaching, to administration, to discipline, etc. Thus when I hear Clinton get up on a podium, and tell us that we need computers in the class room or the inner city (etc.) children are going to get "left behind", I get a little bit annoyed. These same kids already are being left behind, throwing computers at them isn't going to make them read and write any better. Unfortunately, until they acquire these basic skills, computers are entirely besides the point.

    Anyhow, that caffeine is wearing off, pardon me if I'm somewhat incoherant/non-linear sounding at this hour. Good night ;)

    PS:
    I live just outside Philly,

    Where are these "closing" Catholic schools? In any case, their dollar/student ratio is much lower than public school. The Catholic schools can't merely raise tuition such that their dollar / head ratio could even approach that of public school.

    What do you expect at a small private liberal arts school in suburbia? I'm partially kidding. Still, I hardly think they're particularly representative of the "average" or "better" private school student. Even if 90% of such schools are private school students. =)
  • While PA isn't exactly the most high tech or startup friendly state, your statements are simply wrong. Besides the pharamsuetical industry, there are many biotech firms here. I happen to work for one, though, like many, it is incorporated in DE.

    It is a shame that high speed access isn't more affordable. This is more due to regulation than anything else. However, having been involved with a number of high-tech startups (e.g., not Dot-Coms) I can tell you that high speed net access is a not a significant issue for most.

    That being said PA (particularly Philly) has lots of problems, but Net Access ain't top on the list. Tax issues? yes. Attracting/retaining quality employees? Yes. The general apathy/no-can-do attititude? Yes. Problems attracting capital? Yes. Inefficient/troublesome state and city governments? Yes. Old boys club type attitude? Yes. In order to compete with the West Coast (e.g., Seattle, Silicon Valley, etc), PA is going to need to tackle these issues first.

  • Geez, then why don't they learn Silicon Valley's lesson (while also trying to mitigate the impact of that success better)?

    It always intrigues me, these state governments, if they want jobs and tax revenue from tech companies, then why not MAKE THE STATE BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT FRIENDLY TO (BIO|COMPUTER)TECH STARTUPS?

    • Provide tax relief for startups up to 5 yrs, both corporate and sales
    • Provide red-tape 'expediting' services and official support for people with ideas but not a lot of knowledge of the levers and machinations of state
    • Provide funding and equipment for technology education
    • Locate the 'tech startup incubators' near college campi
    • Improve your schools and quality-of-life to attract good, smart people and keep the ones you have from 'brain-draining' to 'nicer' areas..


    Western New York has always frustrated me.. There's a corridor between Buffalo and Rochester which could be a serious tech contender if someone in state government could remove their head from their posterior and clean the feces out of their sensory regions long enough to take notice... You've got UB (the SUNY flagship university, and that is _not_ damning with faint praise..), RPI, Kodak, Xerox IIRC, a reasonably decent infrastructure, low rents and high vacancy, a nice place to live (if you like winter sports ;).. What (besides the weather) is keeping this area from pulling a Rte 128 or Silicon Valley? LACK OF VISION if you ask me...

    Your Working Boy,

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