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Larry Ellison's Next NC -- But Not Yet For You 92

Posted by timothy from the can-I-have-one-if-I-home-school? dept.
An Anonymous Coward (and numerous others -- thanks) have written with news of Larry Ellison's (not Oracle's) new venture. "$199 for Network PC (w/o monitor). Local storage in flash memory, operating system on CD only. (No HD). 64M ram, 266Mhz Pentium-Class. Small Footprint." Added to which, cr@ckwhore added this link to ZDNet coverage of the device and pointed out " This thing costs $199, and has more power than the i-opener or that other websurfer thing ... get the tools back out ... this one is coming apart soon!!" The gimmick is that for now, no one can buy one for personal use (must wait till later in the year) -- but you can pay to contribute a NIC machine to a public school.
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Larry Ellison's Next NC -- But Not Yet For You More

Larry Ellison's Next NC -- But Not Yet For You

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  • Several easy options to do that. Just use IPChains to block any outside access from the box in question or block the box(s) at the router from getting out to the world.

    We have 30+ public access Linux boxes deployed here in Beauregard Parish Louisiana and you can make em do just about anything ya want. :)

    Not an A.C., just too lazy to login. jmorris@beau.lib.la.us

  • Shockwave? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Hey, the web site says that the NIC supports Shockwave... but it's a Linux box. Isn't that a development?!. I haven't been able to get shockwave to run on my Debian box yet... maybe now Oracle will pay for the cost and we'll all benefit. (-:
  • http://www.ltsp.org and build one yourself.
  • We had a meeting last week with people at SUN and they told us about this. Thing is that it's aim was not a home-webTV it was more like an X-terminal. Using "citrix-metaframe"-like software (they said they had a different soft which used even less bandwith) the boxes can be used like a PC ( if you have a server that delivers to you the apps) Face it. All in all we are finally about to see the NC. No need to buy new PCs every year, just add more serverpower. Yes one last thing, the identification process: the UserIDs will be stored in an ID-card (credit card like) which will be inserted to the terminal and the user's profile AND SESSION will be brought back to the screen. Perfect for "hoteling" policies. M

  • Re:Useful, but... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Actually, they're specifically designed to keep kids illiterate in MySQL, etc. so that no matter what they do they end up paying a fee to one of Ellison's customers and thus to Ellison.
  • With VNC (Virtual Network Computing [att.com]) or something like it, any dropped connection means you just pick up where you left off when you get your connection back. This just follows the "ASP" (Application Service Provider) concept that Sun and Oracle have been pushing for a while.
  • > Shouldn't we be focusing on teaching our kids how to use actual computers?

    So, what is an ACTUAL computer? I'm not really sure myself anymore, but I'll wager it's not what we once thought it was!

    Think about it... At one time, in order to own, or more important, to operate an automobile, you had to know all about engines and spark plug gaps and dwell, and compression ratios and idle RPMs and points. Now, we jump in and crank over the key. Does that mean cars are any less useful than they once were? Some people, like small farmers, may still need to know how to rebuild an entire engine out in the field, using nothing more than bailing wire and a hammer, but for most of us, fixing an internal combustion engine is a long lost art.

    Computers no longer exist as an end to themselves. They are (and some might argue, always were) a means to an end. In this day, that end is further and further removed from what the computer itself looks like. What is more important? Understanding the ins and outs of HTML, or being able to find information for a research paper on the Web, or participating in a discussion of global economics with another student in China, Brazil and Indonesia?

    The only constant in life is change...

    -- Your Servant,

  • If it's a special "OracleOS" is Oracle now getting into the OS market?
    Will we see "Oracle Office" after that?
  • They exclude hard drives because of cost factors and reliability. No hard drive equals cheaper product, higher profit margin (on public version, maybe their being nice with educational prices) and less stuff that breaks, which equals higher profit margins.

    It also gives hardware hackers something to do figuring how to get a hard drive to work on that thing though! Fun.

  • there's no provision for any removable media; the file type is pretty moot.

    Don't these boxes have USB? Sure, USB sucks for storage, but that didn't stop a shitload of removable storabe USB drives from hitting the market.

    it would be a tradgedy if they never learn what's really cool about pc's, and that's the programmability.

    Why wouldn't these things be programmable? So your programs are stored on a remote file server instead of locally, big deal. These things look like real computers to me; it's just that they're not self sufficient and they depend on the network for some services that a traditional personal computer would take for granted.


    ---

  • Here at the library I work at I'm always looking for ways to just have a browser station that I can lock down to just our internal webite.


    Suggestions?

    Configure your router to not route between the internet and certain addresses. If your router happens to run Linux, check out IP Chains.


    ---
  • Take VNC and modify it slightly.
    Have the NC run VNC to connect to the server. If the network goes down no problem wait till the server is back up and continue on. Better yet..
    At your home dial in connect to the server and start working. Oops time to go to work. Turn your NC off and head to work. Use your work PC and fire up VNC continue your work where you left it off.

    See how great that would work.

    BTW I would guess the files would be saved on the database Oracle 8i has this feature.
  • Check this out: Workspace on-Demand [ibm.com]
    That way, every time the machine is powered up it gets "reinstalled". You can also lock the user out of the local HD, so the stuff can't get installed in the first place. In fact, you don't even have to have a hard drive, but it's recommended for the swap file.
  • I think its going to run on Linux...no?

  • Here's a link to Colin Powell and Larry Ellison donating 1,100 of these machines [linuxworld.com] to the Dallas Independent School District.

  • And don't forget the monitor ($150), keyboard ($30) and mouse ($25). And speakers for that sound card. A floppy ($20) would be nice to have too.
  • $50 for a 56k modem! Name brand (other than USR/3Com) 56k soft-modems are like $30, and cheapo nonames are like $10. And $10 is a bit cheap for a case, considering that you have to pay shipping, I had a $20 case i picked up at a computer show, and well, i put a hole in the metal with sandpaper, so, you get what you pay for, also, you could've chose a cheapo PCChips integrated board which would be about $60, and $50 or so for CPU. Oh yeah, and 64MB can be had for about $30 a stick for PC100.

  • In my opinion, Macs would have served the lab better, because (with Foolproof) I've yet to see one actually hacked.

    Back "in the day" (maybe 5 or 6 years ago, freshman/sophomore years of high school), Foolproof could be circumvented. I can't remember the details now but I remember I and a bunch of friends 0wn3d a bunch of Macs (along with the PCs which were trivial) at my school.

    Though as I remember Foolproof was pretty anal about a lot of stuff (like if you saved a doc and wanted to delete it later), and also didn't protect against a user deleting everyone elses files on the disk (by opening them up and removing and/or altering the data). Probably Mac OS X (with it's yummy *BSD core) will protect against a lot of these problems natively. [It does have multiple users, right?]

  • names (Score:1)

    by eel ( 91514 )
    Are you trying to tell me that sombodys chosen name in not appropriate? Well, I for one find you name inappropriate, "Anonymous Coward"!
  • I'd love to have these in the labs at my high school! It might put a stop to all the jerks who download mp3s and whatnot onto the computers used by my programming class(it's my personal mission to delete Winamp from the computer I use every time the bum in some other class installs it).

    Unfortunately, this is nothing new. I remember hearing, years ago, about such empty network terminals...computers for which all software is downloaded or accessed over an intenret, etc. And they didn't take off. Oh well.
    ===
    -J
  • I thought I was the only one with a third of a brain reading that article.

    I was just going to post the same thing...
    Seems like they're all just ridiculously braindead windows users.

    My favorite is the guy who thinks you'll have to download a plugin for (probably IE in his mind) the browser over and over and over.. hahaha
  • BTW, according to Forbes Ellison may very soon edge out Bill Gates (aka Bilgatus of Borg) to become the wealthiest person alive [forbes.com] (at least on paper).
  • ...zd-net comments are, in general, infuriatingly ignorant? i can't even read them anymore. i suppose i'm not the only one (there are the occaisonal "you are all morons!!!" posts that i suppose are written by once-intelligent people reduced to enraged flamers...)

    i'd rather read a zillion fR1sT p057 comments, personally. and so i retreat to slashdot.

    so, uh, no, i didn't read the article... ^_^

  • ...the i-opener or the hackable webtv box - this one doesn't come with a monitor, and it probably doesn't output NTSC video either so you can't just use it with your TV.

    I've seen reports that it uses a stripped down version of Linux, however....

  • how can they begin to figure out a file cabinet organization system

    One of my assignments back in my consulting days (93) was to fix the computer at a local Loomis office.

    While waiting for me to show up, and for the day it took for me to figure out how to diagnose their byzantine setup (most of the extra day resulted in the post-it note "Phone telco and ask for a diagnostic on leased line after any reboot". Their diagnostic probe would restart the link.)

    Anyhow, the office manager had kept the 90-slot dispatch sorting rack just because he thought it looked cool and was a historical artifact. Their lead dispatcher still remembered how to use it, and had brought the other two dispatchers up to speed.

  • Re-read the web page.

    The software platform needs to be open

    It's using Linux 2,2,15. With the GPL, this platform must be publicly available.

    relatively persistent bookmarking

    4 MB of flash

    There needs to be some sort of word processor and spreadsheet, and either they need to be small enough that downloading's quick

    They're betting on Citrix. This is a $1k to $5K (and up) server-side solution that downloads your working image to the terminal. ("thin client") Word/Excel/whatever stay on the server and count clients currently connected.

    There needs to be a good mechanism for caching downloaded applications.

    They're betting on keeping the applications on the server. You work with an image that's maintained on your local screen. I don't know enough about Citrix to know whether this is practical. LE is in the running to be world's richest mand and he's betting it's good enough.

    There needs to be a good way to use an Internet file storage provider - probably easiest to piggyback off XDrive/IDrive/Driveway/50Megs/etc. - but is there another mechanism to use instead?

    The page mentions XDrive and "their network server". (On my office computer, I keep all my data on my "V" drive if it doesn't belong on some other file share. A network share for each user allows well-administered backups etc. The local drive is just config)

    Games -

    I'd like to see some discussion of thin servers cheaper than CITRIX. I'd like to have my big computer running some application server SHARED with my primary user, and the second computer a toy like this one. At a grand per server, Citrix ain't the answer just yet. Larry is aiming this at schools because they have enough machines in one place to be able to afford the citrix server.



  • A popular mulituser package still used today on the Mac platform is AtEase . It's made and supported by Apple. Ironically, Apple
    publishes [apple.com] tips on how to circumvent the 'security' At Ease intends to provide.

    I am eager to see the multiuser stuff built into Mac OS X natively, however...



    Seth

  • Here at the library I work at I'm always looking for ways to just have a browser station that I can lock down to just our internal webite.

    Suggestions?

    Not much for an early post...
  • My 70-yr-old parents asked about this as a cheap way to do e-mail with their kids/grandkids. The specs look good: Linux, bundled browser, USB expansion, $360 w/ monitor, and the hint of an iOpener-style expansion to add a HD and make it a REAL machine. For what they want to do, cool. (Only I wish the 2.4 kernel was out so they could properly leverage those USB jacks...)

    Then you do the math: You can get a low-end Celeron-500 box, 15" tube and printer for around $650, which these $400 ISP rebates then knock down to $250. Hmmm, diskful system, with printer, the free ISPs won't support Linux so they'd be out the $20/month anyway, and the whole thing nets out one-third cheaper...

    If LE could cut a deal with Steve Case to get CIS to support these beasts AND qualify them for their $400 rebate, I'd tell my folks to get in line for theirs today. As it is, I'm probably pointing them at an e-Machines bundle. My gut says the NC should be a better deal, but not going by this. Any suggestions?

  • Not even my female collie would use one of these.

  • I can't quite recall if it was foolproof but the old macs, this was back in early 1994, at university had something to protect them...

    I can still remember the hoops you had to jump through to get Mosaic installed on them. The protection system prevented you from running any programs from any directories out side the applications directory tree which had no write access so you could not install new software.

    There was a bug in TurboGopher that could be exploited to get arround this though. Using TurboGopher download the stuffit expander and save it into the TG executable directory (tsk tsk, not checking permissions, naughty TurboGopher *grin*) where it could be run. Then download the Mosaic archive into the same directory, expand it, and you could surf the web at really low speed until the system crashed (very frequently) and rebooted where the mac would check its drive and remove any extra files so you had to repeat the process :)

  • I think when Larry Elison owns computing, we'll wish we had Bill back!

    --- Speaking only for myself,
  • Why would you want to hardware hack this thing? (other than the challenge).. Cant you get a 266 with 64 megs of ram for less than $200us? The other devices were sold at a lower price than the hardware, because they intend to make money on selling services..
    -
  • Network Computer ,Also known as Internet Appliances are already available. I am posting this from the Free Webplayer I recieved fron Virginconnectme.com which has a cool little 10" Monitor and a wireless keyboard. He also should look at Netpliances I-opener. He will not like what he see's. These devices all run on Linux or QNX which are free. Sorry Larry and Bill no royalty fees for you. of course Bill just went out and bought WEBTV instead of doing it him self, but the DOJ will fix that soon enough, we hope. P.S. check this out: HTTP://WWW.COMPUTECHNICA.COM/WEBPLAYER/

  • Hmm... I think your numbers are WAY off... I just checked pricewatch:

    $10 case
    $31 64 MB (PC100)
    $48 MSI MB w/ 4MB video and Sound
    $7 Cheapo v.90 Modem
    $5 Cheapo 10/100 Network card
    $55 P2/266
    $2 CPU fan
    -------------
    $158

    Sorry, you CAN buy a BARE BONES MINIMUM P2/266 w/ 64 megs for $200

  • Oops forgot the CD-ROM

    $10 case
    $31 64 MB (PC100)
    $48 MSI MB w/ 4MB video and Sound
    $7 Cheapo v.90 Modem
    $5 Cheapo 10/100 Network card
    $55 P2/266
    $2 CPU fan
    $24 24x CDROM
    -------------
    $182
  • I understand and agree that these are Internet-centric computers, and that is exactly my point.

    These devices do not teach children real computer skills, which will be needed when they enter the "real world" of the job market. They may not NEED to understand things like directory structures, but it would make using a regular computer for day-to-day business (email, documents, budget reports, etc.) a bit easier if they did know. Yet, there appears to be a push in the direction away from educating them on these topics. Things like MySQL and such will always be the domain of the "advanced" user. I am simply talking about having users who can answer questions like:

    "Where did you save this month's report?"
    "Where did you save the budget for next year?"

    Simple, basic stuff. Just to show what I mean, the usual answers I get to those questions are:

    "In Word."
    "In Excel."

    At this point, I begin the file search. (No, they didn't mean a directory named Word or Excel, they meant inside the program itself, they just don't know any better.)

    Scary. At least to me. And it seems to be happening more and more often as companies bring more systems onto computers. We have new-hires coming right from college who don't know this, so it isn't just adults who have been working for 50 years and never needed it before.

    -Zzyzzx
  • Like you are really in the "guts" of a computer when you use a "real" operating system. How "raw" does a computer have to be so it doesn't breed ignorant users? I vote for toggle switches on the front panel instead of a keyboard? Those monitor things make us lazy and ignorant too. Lets just go for binary light patterns.

    While we're at it, It's dangerous to forget how a real car works. It's a shame more people dont have to crank the engine to start it and "prime" the "carb". What's gonna happen to us when the engine computers die? Actually, cars are just plain bad since that technology could come to an end for too many reasons. Let's all ride horses before we lose that skill.


    ...................

    ... paka chubaka

  • 1. I don't agree that society hates curiosity or intelligence. Quite the contrary is self evident at the macroscopic level. Being smart can leverage success and respect. (Anecdotes about smart kids being teased by bullies are microscopic examples of kids being kids. Anecdotes about smart folks that are poor beg the question: What are they doing to make money? Anecdotes about clearly intelligent people that are not respected beg the question: Are they assholes?)

    2. Everyone is welcome to their opinion and I respect yours. However, I don't share it. I see tremendous value in recognizing what details matter to your purpose and which are only a distraction. Everyone does not have to be a computer programmer. Some people have better things to do and learn. (Yes, knowing computers is not the be-all in this world.) Some folks you may not respect have invested their time into developing skills and amassing knowledge in areas in which you or I appear to be simple idiots.

    I applaud the folks that are smart enough to dig into what interests them and get through what is just in their way.



    ...................

    ... paka chubaka

  • This little puppy would have an advantage for schools, in that it's impossible to screw up the software configuration. A few labs full of tamper-proof machines would be worth hundreds of man hours a year.

    Hear, hear. I teach in a computer lab, and an absolutely secure computer would be a big help. It's all I can do to keep them from mucking around in the directory, because they can get to Windows Explorer 8 ways from Sunday. In my opinion, Macs would have served the lab better, because (with Foolproof) I've yet to see one actually hacked.

    Should we be using sub-standard equipment to teach computers? Good question. These appliances could be more appropriate in elementary or middle schools, or in the Library media center, or in an "Internet" class--and the bettter computers would be in the C++ classes. Not only would this be more secure, but also would be a better appropriation of resources, which is always an issue in schools.

  • Puhleeze tell me you are trolling!

    Without a paid-for monthly recurring expense you will have an essentially useless device.

    The web page is very specific about this. The NIC cost $199, and you can get your net connection from anywhere you want... if you are dirt poor, you can even use one of those ad-driven "free" ISP's like NetZero.

    The alternative is to hack these to run linux

    They ship with LINUX on a pre-installed, bootable CD. The corporate world is too pig-headed to use linux/Macintosh where appropriate

    Most corporations have Macs in their marketing and publishing divisions, and LINUX is gaining ground fast on NT when it comes to servers.

    The bottom line here is that this is a $200 LINUX box. Network speed and reliability has reached the point that local storage is really not as important as it once was. Most "Office" type apps run just fine over a LAN or broadband WAN.

    One thing that has escaped some people's notice is the USB port... Granted, it is not as fast as SCSI or "Firewire", but it is still an easy way to connect an external HD, CDRW, Zip, DLT, etc., if you really insist on local storage.

    The knocks against this being a "real" computer are not valid. Other than the fact that you can't write to the boot drive (although you can replace it by changing CD's), it should be capable of just about everything you would really want to do with a 266MHz LINUX box.

    For schools and home LAN's, this will be very cool. I would not mind having one or two for other rooms of my house.

  • Is this where computers are heading?

    Probably, yeah.

    Shouldn't we be focusing on teaching our kids how to use actual computers?

    This is an actual computer. Read the faq at http://www.thinknic.com/faq.html and you will see that what we are talking about here is a fully-functional LINUX box, being sold with no strings attatched, at a price that even a struggling single parent could probably scrounge up. It ships with Ethernet for LAN's & Broadband connections, and a 56K modem for dial-up. It's a Cyrix 266, and the video can run x-windows at 1024x768, so it is a step up from the old P133 that is currently my main LINUX workhorse.

    If this catches on, I could see a whole generation of C programmers, LINUX hackers, and network admins coming out of schools that never had CS programs before because they thought they could not afford it. You can insist that it is not a "real" computer if you like, but it is a heck of a lot more computer than the old Vic20 that I learned BASIC on two decades ago.

  • since there's no provision for any removable media; the file type is pretty moot.

    ...but it would be a tradgedy if they never learn what's really cool about pc's, and that's the programmability.

    There's this neat invention you could know about. It's called a file server. Look into it.

  • Is there an implication here that computers need to be this powerful to be real (or "actual", as you say)? I recently gave up my laptop for a handheld computer ...

    No implication was intended. Handhelds rock. That said, the usefulness of handheld system to hardcore geeks depends on the ability to write programs for them. Until Palm or WinCE includes a really good on-board C compiler, I think that palmtops will continue to be used in addition to another computer, not as a replacement. They do make successful replacement for Franklin Day Planner notebooks, though. :)

    My point was that the NIC is no less a functional computer than any Wintel, Mac, or Unix-based desktop computer. You can browse, run office apps, write code, etc. on these boxes just as you could with any other desktop platform.

  • After working at Oracle a mere few months, I can say that this is neither the emphasis of the company, nor will it likely be a large profit center. At a meeting with the charged Ellison, you could easily see how excited he was about large dB backed thin-client devices.

    This is a cash-cow wannabe that they have attempted several times.
    Think about it - this device will suffer from the same thing as all other NCs. Without a paid-for monthly recurring expense you will have an essentially useless device.

    The alternative is to hack these to run linux, in which case they will be half the speed for half the cost of recent
    The corporate world is too pig-headed to use linux/Macintosh where appropriate, ie: servers & simple/"thin-clients" and has decided on Windows for everything.

    It is unlikely that they will ever make money or market-penetration with NCs.
  • While this may be an Ellison venture, think about this:

    Ellison is Oracle, at least as far as being the largest investor, and having the the most influence there.

    Thin Clients are perhaps the most likely way for Oracle to expand. They are a potentially huge market, and happen to be one that I don't see the need for...

    regarding their running linux: Simply ask yourself what the probability is that they will really sell fully enabled un-restricted linux boxes for $199.
    Dozens of companies are now taking advantage of linux as a cheap embedded/customizable OS. Simply announcing "powered by linux" isn't enough.
  • This reminds me of DemoLinux, but with less functionality (which may be a good thing).

    If it has a working X server, it seems like it would be pretty nice for most uses-- put the apps on a central server, have users run them from there.

    I think my mother would like one too... The simplicity would certainly appeal to her.

    Oh yeah, the URL for demolinux is http://www.demolinux.org/ but I'm too lazy to figure out the link syntax here.
  • Did you read the article? It says that the NIC is using Linux - from CD only.
  • >>>>>> This is an actual computer. ...you will see that what we are talking about here is a fully-functional LINUX box, .... It ships with Ethernet for LAN's & Broadband connections, and a 56K modem for dial-up. Is there an implication here that computers need to be this powerful to be real (or "actual", as you say)? I recently gave up my laptop for a handheld computer (the Revo from Psion, running the EPOCH operating system). It does about 80% of what I want. I'm in love with the thing. And handhelds are the real future of computers, at least in terms of growth potential. The power of these little machines is just going to grow and grow. Their growth over the next 5 years, at least measured as a percentage of current sales, is going to be greater than that of PCs or Macs. And in dollar volume they might easily represent a bigger market 5 years from now than NCs will. They do now, and I don't see them losing that to NCs in the next 5 years.
    • The relevance of mentioning "Big Iron" is that this is what made Ellison rich.

      Oracle doesn't get its revenue flows from selling Network Computers with StrongARM chips; that was a loss. It makes its money off selling licenses and services for the DBMS products.

    • I will believe that PostgreSQL [postgresql.org] (which is quite distinct from Postgres [berkeley.edu]) has "serious corporate backing," as compared to ODS, when we see availability of at least two of the following:
      • An XA interface is produced for PostgreSQL
      • Tuxedo becomes available for PostgreSQL
      • MQSeries becomes available for PostgreSQL
      • Talarian becomes available for PostgreSQL
      • Tibco TIB becomes available for PostgreSQL
      • Tengah becomes available for PostgreSQL
      • R/3 can run atop PostgreSQL
      • PeopleSoft can run atop PostgreSQL

      Those are good examples of "enterprise" software that integrates with ODS and (on the middleware side) are used to allow ODS to be used to build very large scalable applications.

      Substitute MySQL for PostgreSQL as needed here...

    By the way, Michael Stonebraker answered the question, Is there a connection between the Ingres and Postgres projects? back in 1994 with the clear answer of NO [iupui.edu].

  • Humbug indeed.

    I think you didn't read what I wrote.

    I didn't say "A lame email client like Lotus Notes. "

    I wrote "somewhat lame mail client reminiscent of the email functions of Lotus Notes."

    Why you projected into that the notion that I'm calling Lotus Notes "lame" escapes me. I said nothing about the qualities of Lotus Notes.

  • To some extent, the "Ellison Effect" is more self-defeating.

    The fact that Oracle licensing fees are more blatantly large makes it rather clearer that Oracle is out to Take Care Of Your Money (by putting it in their bank account!), which shows off the clear need to periodically use other vendors' DBMSes.

    The other fortunate thing is that Oracle primarily is connected to selling Big Databases, which is something that only people with big chequebooks tend to get involved with.

    There is not any reasonable likelihood of any of the "libre" options ( e.g. - PostgreSQL, [postgresql.org] InterBase, [interbase.com] MySQL, [mysql.com] ... becoming reasonable alternatives at the Big Iron / Enterprise end of things any time soon, although they may become quite reasonable choices for "small, departmental" applications.

    All you need to do is to look at the licensing of Designer 2000 and see how while the fees may rise exponentially, this results in a die-off of deployment amongst anyone that doesn't have deep pockets...

  • (Yes, I saw you missed the CD-ROM, and posted in a followup..)

    Here's the problem with the price differentials:

    1) 31$ for 64 Megs + 12 $ shipping and handling. The way I've seen it, it's around a buck a meg no matter how you slice it. Cheaper online, but they get you on shipping. Still, I was 20$ off there..

    2) MB and Processor. Price difference is a few bucks, at the cost of using a motherboard that robs several megs of your RAM. These MB's actually use system RAM for their components, so if you *WHERE* going to use this, you'd need a few extra megs, which makes up for the cost different between your solution of the inc. MB components, and mine of just buying cheapo cards.

    3) v.90 modem. You know as well as I that these boxes where being compared to possibly run *NON Win32 OS's*. You cannot buy a cheapo 7$ card to do this. 50$ was even lowballing it.

    Basically, I'd say your at *least* 50 bucks off. Granted, a few bucks cheaper then my estimates, but still abive the 199$ mark. Add in the fact that the Oracle box has a bit of build in flash RAM, etc, and I still don;t think you can beat the price, unless you go out and buy an older, used 266.

    It should also be noted that for the price of the P2/266, you could also have simply bought a K62/500 and practically doubled the horsepower. This I could see as a valid reason for spending a few bucks more..
  • I was basing the comparison on what the Ellison PC has, which does not include any of those.. :-P
  • Half of your answer is already answered. It runs Linux. I'm guessing it also runs X, or some other derivative, as it runs Netscape 4.7. These facts I think answer at least half of your questions..
  • To go further on this point, it should be noted that nearly all of the school in Mexico now run Linux. Gotta make you wonder how long it will take before other countries reach the technological level of the united states, and perhaps, surpase it..
  • Larry has been talking about this for years. He's an outspoken advocate of networking computing. That in and of itself is an understatement. Anyway, he would love nothing more than to move computing progress towards large centralized servers with thin clients connecting to it. To paraphrase Mr. Ellison, bits are electronic and thus shouldn't be packaged into boxes and instead should travel over the network. Also, it makes good sense for the use of Oracle in many aspects of thing clients with this model.

    My personal opinions of Larry Ellison aside (I think he's an ass. I've seen him speak and done some research on him. He's just the kind of guy I wouldn't invite over to a barbecue. Ever.), I wish he would get off of his thin client high horse, get into the real world and actually start innovating instead of pushing an updated mainframe/timesharing model of computing that, while it might have it's place, currently makes no sense in the current market (lack of available bandwidth both to the home and on the "backbone" (what another crock), lack of consumer acceptance, limited choice of applications, etc.).

    I'm sure he is and will continue to put a great deal of capital and personal effort into this project. This is America and I'm glad every man and woman with an idea, no madder how ignorant, has the chance to try it out.

    But, Larry, you've tried this before and nobody has bit.

    *sigh*

    Some people never learn. Maybe his Fu dogs or pond goldfish made him do it.
  • There is not any reasonable likelihood of any of the "libre" options ( e.g. - PostgreSQL, InterBase, MySQL, ... becoming reasonable alternatives at the Big Iron / Enterprise end of things any time soon.

    I'm not sure what that has to do with Net PC's but I'm quite sure you're wrong. Postgres descends from Ingres - one of the first relational databases, came out just a little before DB2 (the big iron IBM db) - and begat Informix. That should tell you enough right there.

    Posgres is now getting some serious corporate backing. That also should tell you something.
    --
  • I've been building, using, repairing and programming computers for a long time. That means that the technology doesn't scare me and I actually understand most of the cryptic error messages.

    When I stop and think about it, I feel sorry for what has been inflicted on the non-technical computer user by the computer industry. Too much of the hardware and software is designed by programmers and engineers, for other programmers and engineers. Unless you are careful, it is easy to forget that the non-technical user is not an engineer or a programmer, and doesn't understand I/O ports, interrupts, low level disk formatting, tracks, sectors, file systems, video signal timing and hundreds of other concepts that the typical slashdot user takes for granted.

    I would argue that non-technical users shouldn't be expected to learn the technical details of their computers. The operating system should not allow them to do things that will damage or disable the computer. The computer should be an appliance, with all the gears and wires carefully hidden away. The user should only see a carefully designed set of abstractions that are proven to be useful and understandable. Everything else should be invisible. A computer is a tool, not an end in itself.

  • A local hard drive with a file system means that the computer has state that isn't portable, must be managed and backed up. If it breaks, you can't just ship it off for repair and seamlessly replace it with another unit. The user's files should be on a well managed server. If there is a local hard disk, it should be used for virtual memory, temporary files and cached copies of files.

  • ...wasn't that Apple's strategy when they had special educational pricing for the Apple ][ and Mac lines? I seem to recall a whole lot of Apple ][s and Macs in educational institutions between... oh, 1983-1993. But once the kids got out into the Real World, guess what they found? PC-compatibles, running DOS or Win3.1. Since Macs and Apple][s were used in schools, they were considered toys, not appropriate for Serious Computing.

    Well, maybe Apple didn't push hard enough. I think it's defeatist just to give up and resign ourselves to the immutable fact that Wintel is the way things have to be. Maybe it's not so immutable after all. There are already other strategies for getting alternative OSes (specifically Linux) into the workplace. I don't know if they're going to work, but adding another prong to the attack sure can't hurt. When Johhny grows up and gets a job at Mr. Smithers' office, he'll say, "Yeah, I can learn Excel. That's a Gnumeric clone, right?" If Smithers hears that one too many times, maybe before he signs the PO for another Office 2008 license, he'll ask, "What's Gnumeric?"

    Oh, and the reason Macs were considered toys wasn't because they were used in schools. Macs weren't accepted because no one could run their legacy apps on them. Give Helix and KOffice and platform-agnostic middleware (e.g. web apps, Java, etc) a little more time.

    And Macs were alien. Linux is a little alien too, but not as much since it has already been accepted in other contexts. The box that runs the company web site is hardly a toy. And maybe Mr. Smithers will remember how that longhair rebel added a cheap server using something called Samba, instead of having to pay for another NT or Netware license.

    And now what do I see in the high schools? Labs full of Pentia, where teachers give classes on how to use MS Word instead of how to do stuff with Applesoft BASIC and/or Pascal. There's a lesson or three here: Business needs drive what happens in schools in subtle ways.

    Yes, that's how things are. This may be an opportunity to change that.

    LANs can be flaky, as anyone knows

    Back in the 10base2 days, I would have agreed with that. But now? I'm sure everyone has some horror stories, but overall, I think the days of LANs being flakey are long past.


    ---
  • Public availability starts on 15 June, according to this [thinknic.com].
  • >These computers can be useful, providing nice
    >email access and such, but are they really that
    >good in the long run? Is this where computers are
    >heading? If not, why are we arranging for our
    >children to learn on these things, and not on
    >real computers, which will undoubtedly have more
    > challenging interfaces,

    I don't think history is on your side here. The average PC user in 1992 knew how to move files around at a DOS prompt, was capable of formatting their own diskettes, etc etc.

    This is certainly no longer the case. People are working around the clock to make interfaces as idiot-friendly as possible. (I don't think they are succeeding, but they sure are trying.)

    >will be more capable, and will also be more
    >complex. As a network administrator, I see
    >users who cannot understand the simple (in my
    >mind) concept of a directory tree structure.
    >Shouldn't we be focusing on teaching our kids
    >how to use actual computers? Unless, this is
    >where computers are heading. I like to think not,
    >however the current trend appears to be
    >simplification of computers, rather than
    >education of users. I think those two are both
    >needed, but they should meet in the middle
    >somewhere. Whatever. Random mumblings from a
    >lunatic, take them as you will.

    I agree with you. If you can't understand what a directory structure is, then go use a fscking typewriter or something. The industry, and the average consumer, have different ideas, I guess.

    This little puppy would have an advantage for schools, in that it's impossible to screw up the software configuration. A few labs full of tamper-proof machines would be worth hundreds of man hours a year.

  • Well, OK maybe I was harsh on that one, but the maint point is that you're spreading FUD about this box. The web site referred so says absolutely nothing about Oracle office.

    Do you have any reason to believe that this box is in any way tied to Oracle office? If you do I'll gladly apologize.

  • Humbug! (Score:2)

    by hey! ( 33014 )
    The problem with a "NC" where no storage sits locally is that this means that your applications are 100% dependant on the reliability of the network connection betwixt you and where ever storage resides.

    Sure, so this is not for the home user with a lousy ISP. In most business environments, the user is pretty muched hosed anyway if he doesn't have network access. If you walked in to an office and said you're giving them a terrific computer, but it wouldn't be networked to their other computers, they'd laugh at you. In a well designed and managed ethernet network, network access is very reliable, just as reliable as power or telephone service if not more so.

    Also, network hosted data is way more reliable than workstation based data, as anyone who's managed more than a handful of computers knows. I've never had to pick around a trashed server hard disk to recover tiny file fragments for a distressed user. It's practically a daily task when you have lots of workstation based storage.

    But unless there's a whole lot more to "Oracle Office Applications" than impressions suggest (the last I heard, Oracle Office was a somewhat lame mail client reminiscent of the email functions of Lotus Notes), the overall system would resultantly be LESS RELIABLE THAN MS-WINDOWS.

    Can you please, please, read the article and follow the links before posting your FUD?

    The venture has nothing to do with Oracle or Oracle office. You can burn custom CD-ROMs with your own applications, or use an ASP model if you wish. And, there are lots of bad things one can say about Lotus Notes e-mail, but "lame" is not one of them. Unless lame means being capable of handling e-mail for the CIA, or having had a secure scripting model for over ten years (no melissa).

    The big problem with NCs has been they have not been enough cheaper given that you're paying for less. This box is getting there, but I think the magic point will come when the box gets down around $100. I'd also like to see an iMac like all in one design coming in at under $300, with options for wireless networking, or perhaps a combined power and network umbilical cord. This would be attractive because there'd be less clutter and users could move their machines around themselves.

  • Yes, however they haven't released it to the general public -- only to their customers. And their customers are the people who put PC/Tel chips on boards. So if you want the PC/Tel linmodem [linmodems.org], you have to ask the people who sold you the board.
    -russ
  • Source to the PC/Tel linmodem is not available. As far as I can tell, no vendor is EVER going to release the source, because they feel that the FCC would consider them in violation of the law.

    And no, Linus interprets the GPL as having no standing over separate binaries designed to be linked into the kernel.
    -russ
  • Windows 1 sucked. It was a failure. It sank into the mud. Windows 2 sucked too. It also was a failure. It burned down, fell over and sank into the mud. Windows 3 didn't suck. It's still standing.

    Patience.
    -russ
  • If you go read the web page, you will see that it
    will run the Linux 2.2 Kernel. The CD probably contains the kernel, enough to get into X, and Netscape.
  • Hey, I would love a Sol or an Altair to toggle code into - no problem here.

    I don't think computers "breed" ignorant users. I think society does. Somehow, through some mechanism (many would call it the public school system, but I am sure there are other factors - consumerism comes to mind), society has allowed ignorance to be "OK" (as well as laziness, because one has to be motivated to move beyond spoon-feeding).

    As far as cars are concerned - yes, I think it is a failing that many people don't really know how their car works - not even at a conceptual level. Most can't even begin to imagine how a car works, or how they could build their own "simple" vehicle, if they had to. Society has a problem when it is deemed better to push responsibility of a problem, such as fixing a flat, onto someone at the far end of a cel-phone conversation - rather than getting the jack and tire, and doing it yourself.

    Certain problems I can understand - I am not saying everyone should do everything themselves (no home surgery, or major auto repairs, for instance - unless that person REALLY wants to). But certain things - taking apart and putting things back together, or learning a simple structuring and organization system, or cooking a cheese sandwich - one should either know how to do these things, or be willing to learn.

    My landlord, who is a very old man, wanted me to explain computers to him in terms he could understand. As we were talking, he asked me if the reason why he wasn't getting it was because he was stupid about such things. I told him "No, I don't believe you to be stupid - I would rather have you asking me the questions, being truely interested in expanding your knowledge - rather than pretending things were too complicated, and burying your head in the sand".

    That man is, by far, smarter and wiser than many of my "peers".

  • Has anyone ever wondered why these units are so hostile to HD's and other PC-like features? They add a lot and don't cost very much, and extend the flexibility of the device a LOT.

    You know what all these network computing devices remind me of? The Amiga 500 and the other Commodore computers of the 80's - they're all in one units that do a pretty good job on everything, with limited (intended) expansion capabilities save what the company liscences and intends, except this time, that extends to the system software too. Ick.

    It strikes me there is a hard-core demand for a simple PC compatible (well, will it run linux) machine like the iopener, with an embedded flatscreen and motherboard, a HD, and a keyboard. I could use one of these in my car, and I could use one in the living room, the bathroom.. you get the idea. Notebooks cost too much because they need to be light - a desktop machine has no such requirement.

    Maybe Redhat should release a terminal (Or debian, or suse..) that runs their distro nice.. it strikes me that might make a lot more money then ad banners, eh.

    Kudos!

  • Good job, Larry. Focus on the schools. In five to ten years, the business market will be ready too.

    ...wasn't that Apple's strategy when they had special educational pricing for the Apple ][ and Mac lines? I seem to recall a whole lot of Apple ][s and Macs in educational institutions between... oh, 1983-1993. But once the kids got out into the Real World, guess what they found? PC-compatibles, running DOS or Win3.1. Since Macs and Apple][s were used in schools, they were considered toys, not appropriate for Serious Computing.

    And now what do I see in the high schools? Labs full of Pentia, where teachers give classes on how to use MS Word instead of how to do stuff with Applesoft BASIC and/or Pascal. There's a lesson or three here: Business needs drive what happens in schools in subtle ways. And good marketing will overcome superior products any day.

    I'll just have to say "M3 T00" to the comments about local storage. LANs can be flaky, as anyone knows, and if there's no {floppy, ZIP, LS-120} drive equivalent on these little NCs, there damn well should be. What if little Johnny needs to take work home, but he lives out in the sticks at the end of a 33.6K pipe? (This will be a problem for the next 2-3 years, if not longer.) Oh well, maybe the time for thin clients has finally come... though I tend to use my P-150 laptop as a thin client these days and I'm always annoyed by how slow it is!

  • Hmm... and the specs are not that bad, either.

    I have a bootable BeOS r. 4.0 CD, that I got with PCPlus a year or so ago. I was flabbergasted when I could boot it on my Thinkpad, with both video and the soundcard perfectly working! I tried the famous BeOS teaser, so I started 4 quicktime movies FROM THE CD!!! and it managed perfectly!

    I could actually burn the image of BeOS 5 to a CD and this should work, too. And there is some limited storage on the flash memory. Wonder if that could be mounted as a drive....

  • Compare this with a $150 game console or a $400 PC which has a $100 disk drive, some PCI slots, legacy interfaces, $50 power supply, $50-100 Windows license, etc. It's well within the range of practical manufacturing and production, as long as there's enough sales volume to amortize the costs. From a hardware perspective, it really needs USB or Ethernet or another expansion mechanism, but that's not tough to include in that price range.

    The question is whether the applications are well designed (and of course whether the marketing is done well.) What software support does one of these things need?

    • The software platform needs to be open for developers - either something widely supported like WinXX or Linux or *BSD, so existing applications work, or at least a higher level such as JVM where everything's supposed to be easily portable.
    • Obviously the browser's built in, and relatively persistent bookmarking.
    • There needs to be some sort of word processor and spreadsheet, and either they need to be small enough that downloading's quick, or else pre-loaded. Sounds like a job for Java?
    • There needs to be a good mechanism for caching downloaded applications.
    • There needs to be a good way to use an Internet file storage provider - probably easiest to piggyback off XDrive/IDrive/Driveway/50Megs/etc. - but is there another mechanism to use instead? Is non-free storage part of the business model?
    • Security is essential - do any storage providers support SSL?
    • Games - If you're going for the home-user market, and supporting television display interfaces and modem network connections, that's an important market growth mechanism. You'
      re not just selling them to schools and businesses, you're selling them to Nintendo/Sega/Sony consumers, so you need some standalone games and some networked games.
  • Did you even read any of this? This isn't an Oracle venture, it's Ellison and Ellison only. It has nothing to do with Oracle.
  • Who gives a crap that someone is releasing
    a piece of shit Cyrix based computer running
    Linux?

    What is the big hype? There is no LCD screen,
    and in fact the monitor just costs more.

  • From that page:

    The New Internet Computer Company is offering a special price for donation to under-served schools.

    So expect to pay a more reasonable price (as in higher) for it as a Joe User. But if you can buy it without a keyboard, mouse, or monitor, then you can scavenge those cheap from thrift stores, flea markets, and swap meets, and save a few bucks... then blow the money you've saved on an LCD screen to hang on the bathroom wall in front of the crapper so you can read Slashdot! Yep, now you can have your open source hot grits AND pour 'em down your pants without making a mess in the living room!
  • I don't think history is on your side here. The average PC user in 1992 knew how to move files around at a DOS prompt, was capable of formatting their own diskettes, etc etc. This is certainly no longer the case. People are working around the clock to make interfaces as idiot-friendly as possible. (I don't think they are succeeding, but they sure are trying.)
    And the average PC user was also more technically inclined. They were not nearly as commonplace as they keep getting every year. You want to play that game...when the first PC's were developed the average user knew how to build a computer...why? Cause that's they way they came. Kits. That argument is quite invalid.

    I agree with you. If you can't understand what a directory structure is, then go use a fscking typewriter or something. The industry, and the average consumer, have different ideas, I guess.
    What an elitist attitude to have...go read my post ^ there about cars...get over it. There are some things I bet you havent mastered...so we should stop you from using the device or whatever at all? Sure thing.
  • Now you've done it..

    By decrypting that word, you have made this offensive material availiable to minors.. You will be charged under the DMCA for reverse engineering the code, and under COPA for posting the offending term where it is accesible by minors. Please turn yourself in ASAP to avoid further charges.

    -
  • I don't think history is on your side here. The average PC user in 1992 knew how to move files around at a DOS prompt, was capable of formatting their own diskettes, etc etc.

    First of all, the number of personal computers in use in 1992 was probably a third of what it is today. The Secretary, Word Processor, and Accountant would have had one - the Middle Manager wouldn't. So, in the last decade, we've taken a whole group of people who primary job function doesn't revolve around computer programs and given them computers.

    Second - I actually don't think that "most users" understood how to manipulate files from the DOS prompt. People primarily used the file manager that was built into WordPerfect, and launched applications from a 'boot menu' which used to be a standard part of Novell Netware. It was very common to find every document a user had ever written in their C:\WP\ directory.

    Third - In those days, IT departments actually had the concept of Basic User training. They would actually pay money to send people to a class where they were told how to copy their files and print their documents. Even as late as 1996, I worked in a place that required a 4 hour training class before an e-mail logon was issued.

    How many of you work at places where you offer any sort of end-user training at all? How many can say that there's been a proactive policy in place to tell users not to click mystery VBS files and so on?

    I'd guess not many - the tendancy nowdays is to drop something on a users desk and let them figure it out. Which they sorta do, but not without a few disasters and much snickering by the IT goons.
  • Yeah, but he's cool in terms of his outside interests, i.e. he doesn't think about computing _all_ the time like Mr Gates does. He'll make us feel good about being owned.

    Plus he's trying to get Linux in schools.

    Let's see now, replace the CD-ROM with a cd-rewritable, make a copy of the OS onto a CD-RAM and patch the kernel so that it can use HDD. Who's got a crowbar?
  • Well According to the NICs website it is linux (kernel 2.2.15) with Netscape. Looks like it would make a cheap XTerm
  • The problem with a "NC" where no storage sits locally is that this means that your applications are 100% dependant on the reliability of the network connection betwixt you and where ever storage resides.

    With the limited reliability of ISP connections, that is a severely dangerous dependancy.

    What if...

    • You get half-way done work on a "Oracle Word Processor" document, haven't saved it recently, and then the ISP connection goes wonky?
    • Ditto for running GnuCash? [gnucash.org]
    • Ditto for any application that saves documents as complete files ?

    If Oracle provides a set of "databased applications," where documents are "saved" based on pushing DB updates out to a networked database, where updates are pushed out ASAP, that may be one thing. (One thing that assumes applications that we don't know, with any certainty, exist.)

    Supposing that scenario is true, and there is some persistent local storage where updates can be queued if the network connection goes down, that's a bit better still.

    But unless there's a whole lot more to "Oracle Office Applications" than impressions suggest (the last I heard, Oracle Office was a somewhat lame mail client reminiscent of the email functions of Lotus Notes), the overall system would resultantly be LESS RELIABLE THAN MS-WINDOWS.

    And the only way for it to be wonderfully reliable would be if there was a set of terribly proprietary Oracle Applications that would tie your documents quite forcibly to sitting at Oracle. A situation rather scarier than the present one of documents being held hostage to What Format Will Microsoft Make You Use Today?

    I just don't see this working out. The reasoning not fully agreeing with yours, but the conclusions certainly being similar...

  • Cheaper to buy this beast...

    10$ case
    64$ 64 Megs Memory
    20$ S3 4 Meg Video Card
    15$ Low end sound card
    24$ CD-ROM Drive
    82$ Cheap Mb w/P233
    50$ 56K modem
    10$ 10/100 BaseT cheapo Network card
    == 275$

    These are the BARE BONES MINIMUM prices listed according to www.pricewatch.com today. Sorry, but you cannot buy a *new* 266 w 64 megs for less then 200.

  • Re:How about the reliability question? (Score:3)

    by Sloppy ( 14984 ) on Tuesday May 09, 2000 @02:25PM (#1082634) Homepage Journal

    You're right about the consumer market.

    But what about schools and businesses, where your server could be on a LAN instead of somewhere out on The Internet? That would certainly fix the reliability problem, and also give Ellison a chance to sell an expensive server and make some money. Lord knows he needs to! ;-)


    ---

  • Imagine if this were the 1960's... (Score:3)

    by cr0sh ( 43134 ) on Tuesday May 09, 2000 @02:10PM (#1082635) Homepage
    "Brenda, where did you put that report?"

    "Oh, gee - I dunno, the typewriter?"

    Rather than "The report is in the file cabinet marked 1966, filed under reports, sub-filed May..." or whatever other system was in use.

    One thing I wondered about the whole Y2K scenario (ya know, everything stops working), is that everyone was saying "We'll just use pencil and paper!" - except, if no one knows what a directory tree structure is or how it is used, how can they begin to figure out a file cabinet organization system (which is all directory trees really are - virtual file cabinets)?

    What I find really amusing is the secretary (or other lamer) who can figure out a filing cabinet organizing system - but fails to understand a directory tree - it is like they sit in front of a computer, and go stupid!

  • Re:Useful, but... (Score:3)

    by jonnythan ( 79727 ) on Tuesday May 09, 2000 @12:57PM (#1082636)
    Because a very small percentage of these children will ever need to know what a directory tree structure is or how to manage a large database. These computers are NETWORK computers. Think Internet.

    The Internet is a useful medium for anyone, just as television, magazines, and radio. These aren't intended to make kids literate in MySQL, but to give them the opportunity to make use of the vast resources available on the web.

  • How many of you even read the link? (Score:3)

    by Megane ( 129182 ) on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @03:02AM (#1082637)
    The day after this article was first posted, I'm surprised to see how many people were griping about it not having Ethernet or running some OS other than Linux... when it clearly states on the web page that it both has Ethernet and runs Linux?

    Folks, this looks like what I've been wanting to see for a while now. These are the specs of the "C64 of the 90's" I've been wondering when someone will make, only it's a couple of years late. :-)

    Now, the specs you have to go a little deeper to read say "The NIC includes a 56K soft modem (PCTEL) onboard.". So basically it's a WinModem. Or rather, a LinModem. But the GPL virus means that they almost certainly have to release the source code to the driver along with the rest of the base operating system and utilities. They don't have to release the source to any custom applications they might have, but there don't seem to be any mentioned, just publically available software like Linux and Netscape.

    But the important thing is that it has a USB port. You can add a real modem, and you can (probably) add a USB hard drive although the speed won't exactly rock. And it should work with any old cheap VGA monitor you can find at a swap meet, since it supports up to 1024x768x millions VESA modes with XFree 3.6.

    For the home user who has never used a computer before, this can be a cheap way to get on the internet, do e-mail, and browse the web.

    And for the power user, it does have 10/100 Ethernet, so this would make a nice home workstation so you could read Slashdot on the crapper with the addition of an LCD screen. I already have Ethernet wire strung through most of the house by running a 10B2 coax backbone on the floor around the outer walls, taping it down where there is no carpet, so I can just have it boot from one of my servers.

    One more thing... this past weekend I figured out how to set up PPP dial-ins on my server (with TWO modem lines!), although the IP addresses are are on the wrong side of IP masquerading (because my fixed IP block comes in in bridged mode). But since most of the services that average users will use work fine behind IPMasq, they can leech off my DSL line in "mini-ISP" mode! Open source hot grits! Of course I have an understanding ISP (who has an "any server you want" policy), and will pre-educate the few friends I give passwords to to NOT spam anyone, because it's MY ass on the line if they do.

  • Re:Useful, but... (Score:3)

    by Zebbers ( 134389 ) on Tuesday May 09, 2000 @02:27PM (#1082638)
    to an extent. Stuff as basic as file saving..and directory concepts should be known...but then again, if you can develop something that eliminates/simplifies it, that's even better. I disagree that people now a days need to learn more and more about computers. True, they need to learn basic programs like word processors and spreadsheets, etc etc...but it isn't like it once was...where computing was totally cryptic and was only avaliable for technowizzes. In the future it will prolly become even more simplified for the enduser...and rightfully so.

    Lets use cars for example...A vast, vast, vast majority of Americans use/own cars. They use them frequently. Most of them have a general understanding of the functional components...ie: what the engine does, what the trans does, why you need to change your oil...etc, etc...basic stuff. Some wont even know that much. But most will....then there will always be two groups above the average...the mechanics who do it for a living, and the weekend mechanics...both have superior knowledge of the automobile...one gets paid..the other does it for a hobby...but the common user doesnt even need to know half what they do.

    IMHO this will apply to computing...as it does everything else.

  • Useful, but... (Score:3)

    by Zzyzzx ( 172119 ) on Tuesday May 09, 2000 @12:49PM (#1082639)
    These computers can be useful, providing nice email access and such, but are they really that good in the long run? Is this where computers are heading? If not, why are we arranging for our children to learn on these things, and not on real computers, which will undoubtedly have more challenging interfaces, will be more capable, and will also be more complex. As a network administrator, I see users who cannot understand the simple (in my mind) concept of a directory tree structure. Shouldn't we be focusing on teaching our kids how to use actual computers? Unless, this is where computers are heading. I like to think not, however the current trend appears to be simplification of computers, rather than education of users. I think those two are both needed, but they should meet in the middle somewhere. Whatever. Random mumblings from a lunatic, take them as you will.

  • I think this is a Good Idea (Score:4)

    by Sloppy ( 14984 ) on Tuesday May 09, 2000 @02:50PM (#1082640) Homepage Journal

    The more I think of this, the cooler it sounds. I hope he actually follows through on the idea of getting these into schools.

    Schools don't (in theory) have the legacy needs of businesses. They can really use whatever works best, instead of having to conform to Microsoft formats. And if Johhny brings his homework back to school and it's in MS Word format and the school computers can't read it, well, that's just too bad. Sorry, Johnny. Save it in RTF or some open format next time. Make it a habit for life, Johnny.

    Think about it: kids growing up using lil' Linux boxes... Most of what mainstream society considers to be "normal" is really just a matter of what they're used to either by random chance or clever maniacal plotting, rather than choice. That's why Windoze is considered "normal" these days. (How sad!) Change what people see every day, and you'll change what they are.

    And look at the donation angle. This is a way for people like us to directly subvert Microsoft's strategy of using the education system to indoctrinate the next generation. Instead of having to work through the political system to convince the school board to buy a fleet of [pick your favorite non-Wintel platform], you can fight piecemeal, just a little bit at a time, by whipping out your credit card. No muss, no fuss. Hey, I'm a lazy slob and I don't know how to lobby. But I wouldn't hesitate a minute to drop $379 on the middle school a few blocks away. At least I'd know what I'm getting for my money, unlike the situation with taxes.

    Of course, one terrifying possibility is that Microsoft would make a bootable Windows CD for these machines and then donate those to the schools. Hmm. Maybe Larry ought to put the OS on a ROM. Not that it would slow down a real hacker, but at least it would make bastardizing these things nontrivial.

    Good job, Larry. Focus on the schools. In five to ten years, the business market will be ready too.


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