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Dune: House Harkonnen 165

Posted by Hemos from the my-beautiful-feyd dept.
I've taken some time to read the Kevin J. Anderson/Brian Herbert written Dune: House Harkonnen, which is the second in the prequel series. Find out what I think about the potential blasphemy of Dune prequels *grin*.

Dune: House Harkonnen
author Kevin J. Anderson & Brian Herbert
pages 603
publisher Bantam Books, 2000
rating 6/10
reviewer Jeff "hemos" Bates
ISBN 0553110721
summary Further explores the Galaxy of Dune, prior to the well known series

*

I've long been a confirmed Dune addict. One of my long lasting book passions has been collecting hardcover copies of each of the original series; when I found hardcover copies, then finding 1st edition hardcover copies. So, obviously when I found out that Brian Herbert, Frank's son, and well known science fiction author Kevin J. Anderson (most noted for his Star Wars series work) were going to be doing prequels to the series, I was quite anticipatory.

If you've read Dune: House Atreides, you can imagine my chagrin. OK, some people like it (I'm looking at you, Joseph Arruda), and I understand the reasons behind it. But that book was so abysmally horrid in terms of the one-dimensional characters that I figured Dune: House Harkonnen had to be better. After all, there was no where to go but up.

A tangent: I've never been a real fan of Kevin J. Anderson's work. In terms of the Star Wars series, Timothy Zahn pretty much defined that series, IMHO. So, to be upfront, Anderson is fighting an uphill battle with me.

The meat of the book is this: It explains where Feyd comes from, talks more about his parentage, and the relationships within the Harkonnen Family, which, surprise surprise, are pretty messy. But for those who are interested in the storyline and backdrop to the entire series, there's a lot of backgrond material on how the Atreides, Harkonnen and Corrinos interrelate.

But I'm a little puzzled about why the book is entitled House Harkonnen. Granted, we get the storyline about Feyd, how Rabban gets the name "Beast"...but that's about it in the Harkonnen end of things. The other plot lines are much more interesting.

The first is continuing the development of Pardot and Liet Kynes. You found out about Liet's background, growing up, and how he becomes the new Imperial Planetologist. You get some sense of his caring for Arrakis, as well as the the continuation from the prior book to the ecological project on Arrakis. Also on Dune, you found out more about the connections between the Fremen and the Bene Gesserit.

The Caladan/Arrakis has a number of points to it, some good and some so annoying it made me want to vomit. First bad one: Prince Vernius of Ix. Yes, I like the Ix portion of the storyline, and what the nasty Bene Tleilaxu are up to. But his character, and his sister annoyed me so much that I had a hard time getting through this section. Try counting how many times Vernius says "Vermilion Hells" between this book and the former. It's astonishing. Someone should teach the prince how to curse more. Seriously, though, those two characters are some of the weakest in the entire series. The relationship between the Princess and Leto is extremely predictable and stale. The only member of the whole family that I liked, the Earl Vernius has a plotline that extends basically the length of the book...for very little return.

One of the good parts of the Atredies portion is the meeting between Jessica and Leto - that's a good foundation. The other enjoyable part is Gurney Halleck - the storyline is not "enjoyable" but it's interesting.

So, overall, mixed review. If you are a Dune fanatic, like I am, you've probably already purchased it. If you aren't a fanatic, but are interested, I'd recommend reading the original series first. If you've read and liked it, this might be worth picking up - it's a quick read, and it's fun to head back to the Realm of the Padishah Emporer. But if you thought Dune was OK, but not great - DO NOT PICK THIS UP. If you are interested though, you can grab it from ThinkGeek.
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Dune: House Harkonnen

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  • I've read _Dune: House Harkonnen_, and I thought it was a pretty enjoyable, disposable read. The characters are paper-thin, though, with little of the depth or subtlety that Frank Herbert displayed in _Dune_. The authors apparently understand this, and they make up for it with plot, plot, plot.

    What I miss most from Frank Herbert's novels is the decadent political sophistication that his characters demonstrated. For example: as written by Frank Herbert, the Bene Gesserit are consummate political operatives who get their way through subtlety, finesse and infinite patience, planning generations and millennia in advance. But as written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, the witches might as well be sledgehammer-wielding maniacs. A case in point (MINOR SPOILER ALERT) is the method by which Baron Harkonnen is "persuaded" to sire a child for the Sisterhood's breeding program. Is that the best they could do?

    Another contrast: The dinner party about a third of the way through _Dune_. Told from Jessica's point of view, this scene is a masterpiece of political intrigue: with a large cast of characters all pursuing their own agendas, Frank Herbert conveys motivation for each one while establishing Jessica's credentials as a master of observation, all the while setting the stage for the coming betrayal. What compares to this in _Dune: House Harkonnen_? There is (another MINOR SPOILER) also a dinner party scene early in this book, in which one character inexplicably attacks and kills another, in order to furnish a political background for the rest of the book which is never explored, but simply stated.

    Especially in his later _Dune_ novels, Frank Herbert could be too subtle for his own good, but it wouldn't hurt his son and his son's co-writer to try harder to emulate at least one of the things that made the father's writing so special.
  • The first "sequel" was so bad it became the first Sci-Fi book I've thrown away (recycled actually) in about 15 years. I'm not interested in being fooled twice. About the best I can say is that it was nice and big and hence I didn't run out of something to read when I was stuck in an airport. Someone talented at literary analysis could do a great "Why Frank Herbert was such a good writer" by noting the things that made his Dune books better than these even with similar characters, plot, settings, language etc.
  • Yeah, bascically the first three books are the core, and are what's really good. God Emperor is still good, but starts getting a little bit crazy. After that all bets are off, and everything just gets entirely too crazy
  • You said you read it in Dutch, right? FYI - in the original English it's crysknife.

    --
  • Lots of great books are remade every 20 years or so when there are new societal insights, directors, actors and film technology. Consider Dracula, Cleopatra, Superman, Hamlet, etc.
    Rather than badmouth Lynch, I look forward to the next film interpretation.

    Actually I like Lynch a lot. Though it dropped many subplots, and was too dense for those who hadn't read the book, the movie possessed "film noir" or interesting intepretation of the Dune planets.
  • Theoretically, if any author or collaboration of authors could be put together to handle the Butlerian Jihad, since you'd also have to handle alot of the back drop too the whole thing as well, I'd love to see something like a 3 or 5 book collaboration between good ole brian, David Drake, and Robert Jordan... that is, as soon as he finishes his own damn series. Mumble.

  • The books are even inconsistent with themselves.

    I think that was what disgusted me most about them. Not only do they ignore much of what was said in the original DUNE books, they ignore what they write as well. One example: (Yes, this is a spoiler, if you care) They go through some effort to point out several times that Gurney's sister's voicecords have been cut out so that she can't scream when being tortured. Yet, when she sees Gurney captured in the slave pits, what does she do? She screams. What gives?

    There were many other things of this nature. I don't remember them in enough detail to write down, though; that one just stuck in my mind due to its sheer obviousness.
  • That's not to say there won't be suspense at all, simply that it will be in "the details"... the rules of war / swordmaster training plotline, etc

    But unfortunately when it's done with all the literary dexterity of a fifteen-year-old whose apparent reading diet consists solely of Marvel Comics, it sucks. I've read Kevin Anderson's drivel and have no time for it. He has a knack for beating to death the great lines of other authors. He can also with almost no apparent effort reduce a complex and interesting character to a one-dimensional knee-jerking idiot. It's seriously doubtful that Brian Herbert adds anything to the mix; literary talent has been proven time and again to be un-inheritable. He's probably just putting his name on the cover so that it goes in the same section as his father's books.

    There are a million better and more intersting books to read than the squeeze-dried castoffs of some long-dead author. Herbert's originals were greats. Read them again if you're dying for some nostalgia. But you can go to a used bookstore and randomly select twenty sci-fi greats that without a doubt knock the socks off of any lame production of Kevin Anderson.

  • I read all six. Stop after the first three. That is fine. You are missing nothing thereafter. Herbert was a genius but he was erratic. It's pretty clear he was on a gravy train after that.
  • Good point. The Rama series went downhill fast after they got that fruit Gentry Lee involved.
  • I read in the past that original Frank Herbert notes were found in a safe deposit box. These spelled out the prequels and the final book to the series. From what I read they(Brian/Kevin) were going to use only what Frank had left behind. So in essence these books should be looked at more like rough drafts from Frank Herbert than complete books from Brian/Kevin. I can't wait for the mini-series or the final book. I alwasy wondered if it was supposed to end with Chapterhouse Dune.
  • I've also been a huge Dune fan, to the extend that despite the lack of sustance to Dune: House Atreides, I still liked it. House Harkonnen however, just wore on me: They never stuck with one story line long enough to get much depth. Core points in the Dune story were also needlessly and seemingly endlessly repeated. It finally got to the point where after getting 3/4 of the way through the book, I just put it down and haven't picked it up since. All the short little chapters are in themselves predictable; there are no real suprises, nothing that requires much of any thought. I meet Brien Herbert at a book reading/signing a couple weeks ago, and in person he's much the same to listen to as he is to read. Will I buy the third book when it comes out? Probably only for the purpose of having the full set.
  • Oh, but the Benford/Bear/Brin additions to the Foundation novels are WONDERFUL!!!

    I read the original Foundation series for the story (Asimov wrote great stories), but the new autors write great prose also. I really enjoyed reading Foundation++. I would recommend reading the base Foundation series (even if you get bored with it), just to get to read Foundation++.

    Joe
  • ...was that after the first two books, its never too late to stop reading. Even if you finished 5 1/2 books, you can stop there and it would be worth it. I scoffed at the advice initially, but I have only made it through the first two books, and could never finish any of the others. This advice probably applies equally well to the prequels. Anyway, with all the comments about "milking it for all its worth", people are not recognizing that Frank Herbert was essentially doing exactly the same thing.

    Of course, since I never made it through the rest, maybe I'm missing the big picture here. But I'm still really excited about the SciFi miniseries that I think is due out next month.

  • Oh I don't know I've enjoyed the following interpretations:

    Robots Vs. Foundation II: The Secret of Empire's Gold

    Han Solo's Great Uncle's Second Cousin's Revenge

    -Insert Star Trek Joke Here-

    Blade Runner II: Electric Sheepalo

  • ... or lack thereof with regards to writing Dune prequels. Much like Star Wars- the potential for going back further is there, and because it's there, greed drives people to crank out a shit product because they KNOW the masses will buy (House Atreides, Phantom Menace).

    I for one have not and WILL not read anything allegedly "Dune" beyond the six books that Herbert wrote. The man put years into the development of Arrakis and the Fremen, and developed a quite remarkable political system, between the Bene Gesserit (sp?), the Tleilaxu, the Guild and the ruling class... all of that depth and detail would naturally have involved some backstory to work from, rough plot notes and so forth about where to start, what happened to bring the elements of Dune together, and so on.

    The fact that Herbert did NOT write or release a book similar to House Atreides / House Harkonnen is testament to the lasting quality of a well-developed setting. The work he has done served to make the novel much more realistic and flavorful. Anderson is doing nothing more than making a quick buck with Herbert's successor's approval (as he's more than likely getting a cut).

    Dune stands on its own and does NOT need this sort of backstory or exploration- it is thoroughly unnecessary and serves to corrupt the quality of Herbert's efforts.

    Dune is one of my favorite novels of all time- one of the best reads of my life. And much like Star Wars, I refuse to let an unnecessary prequel by a shoddy writer tarnish what has come before- one of the greatest fictional works of the twentieth century.
  • First I never got the impression she bloated.. I think the Baron helped her along that path, but only because he was out to ruin her and Paul and Leto II. As for the books giving reason for his condition, that part I actually liked. If you look at it right anything he did to Aila was being done to a Bene Geserit, and hence if he "helped" her gain weight he was simply turning the curse back on her.
  • I read Dune many years ago. I then started reading Herbert's sequels, and I was disappointed. Instead of intricate gems, I got turgid prose and incomprehensible plotlines.

    When I was struck by shingles (a disease I do not recommend), the best description of the pain was the initial testing of Paul by the pain box. I have not read Dune in over twenty years, but that leapt to mind. Although people remember the intricate plotting and fascinating characters, it is the evocative writing that sets Dune apart from all other books in its universe.

    So far, nothing else in that universe comes close.

  • I am a long time Dune reader as well. I have checked out the trailers as well and have no real opinion on the quality of the series.

    What I did want to comment on was that the visuals (costumes, settings) in the trailer reminded me too much of the old Flash Gordon serials (which BTW I loved watching as a kid). The visuals in the Lynch movie were the only thing that rang authentic with the novel series. I thought the "steam engine" Navigator habitats were so right on capturing succinctly in a visual statment the aging clankiness of the Empire just ripe for revolution.

  • I have an additional bone to pick here.

    A large part of writing a novel is creating a believeable backdrop. If you've ever read essays by David Drake, or Robert Eddings, the riven codex, you'd know that most of the work in a novel is the research, and fabricating the world that the characters and events take place in.

    Writing a novel in an existing world gives an auther a serious break, and allows them to focus on quality writing, quality characters, and creating a quality story within an already rich and consistant backdrop.

    Think about it in terms of programming.

    The backdrop is the platform on which the application runs, and the applicaion itself the novel, and the characters and what not are system resources.

    New books write a new os, create new resources, and new applications every time.

    Works within "foriegn" worlds are just applications doing new and interesting things with on an old and beloved platform.

    -T

    ps. dont hate because i cna't spel.
  • This scares me about the most recent Dune installment, written by Herbert's son (grandson?) I hear it's pretty good, so I will probably break down and get it. Wasn't Chapterhouse finished after Herbert's death as well? I haven't heard any buzz about the Foundation books, but like you intimated, it depends on the skill of the writer to write whether or not you enjoy a book, not how well he can copy another writer's style. I have thoroughly enjoyed the Berserker stories that were written by third parties.

    I wonder how much of Zelazny's last works were massaged, touched up, and just plain written by someone else? The quality of his writing had been on a downslide for several years anyway, and the second Amber series was a disappointment overall, so I don't expect much would be lost in that case through the after-editing, but I wonder how many great writers have had works trashed or rewritten beyond their original intent after their death or debilitating illness?

    And just for the record, The Silmarillion was one of the most gosh-awful boring books I've read since I tried to read a dictionary. Everyone's different though.
  • True, the original Dune novel is leaps and bounds better than the others in the series. But others have recaptured some of the magic;

    The Bashir's (sp? It's been years since I read them) discovery of his ability to move at superhuman speeds. Ghola Duncan's uncanny warrior technique -- unlearned, but intuited. These kinds of things bring back the awe and mystery I felt at Paul's growing awareness of his abilities. Of course none match the original, but they get close.
  • I am a huge fan of Sci Fi/Fantasy (mostly due to the fact that I'm a permanent escapist), and I wanted to put in a few words of comparison between K.J.A and Frank Herbert.

    Don't get me wrong, Anderson is not a bad writer. Although he has his faults, I think that his stlye makes him very accessible for everyone. However, thats just what annoys me about him and what sets him far apart from Tolkien, Herbert, Orson Scott Card, and the like.

    The absolute worst problem I have with Mr. Anderson's writing is the overwhelming reliance on cliche

    KJA writes a LOT of cliche into his novels! Good lord. . .I am a huge Star Wars fan, and I've read each of his 'Rouge Squadron' books. They are trips into a sappy hell, reminding me more of a futuristic "Hardy Boys" than Star Wars! Almost evey chapter of his early works ends with some character speaking a runon sentance dripping with determination and grit. Annoying. And this is not limited to just this series either.

    When I first read Herbert, I LOVED it because it felt like he was relating history to me. It felt like these things had already happened and he was simply recording the events. This combined with the realistic complexity of his universe made it seem so real! Tolkien gave me much the same effect in that he fills in ALL of the gray areas in his creations. Every race has a language he created just for it (He was a philologist). Both Tolkien and Herbert are similar in the amounts of time they spent mapping out their creations before writing.

    Frankly, I dont want to see anyone else write within the Dune universe. You've noticed that no-one else has written within the LOTR universe (minus a few kids books I know of), and the people who HAVE expanded the Star Wars universe without George Lucas have often annoyed me. The whole process seems like putting on someone else's clothes, almost--and they certainly don't always fit right.

    If only good authors lived forever!

    -s

  • Money milking, (Score:4)

    by JurriAlt137n ( 236883 ) on Wednesday November 15, 2000 @07:10AM (#622486)
    that's what it is. Don't get me wrong. I'm definitely a fanatic, I've read the books god knows how many times, watched the film(very reluctantly), played the games, and reread the books once again. But this stuff may concern the same subject, it does not contain the spirit of Frank Herbert and that's what made the books what they were...
  • An excellent Dune resource is the Dune Encyclopedia. It has a tremendous amount of back history, and covers everything before the last couple of books.

    Unfortunately, I've found it to be extremely rare (it's been out of print since the late 80's, and didn't have a very large print run to begin with). I managed to get a copy find a copy in excellent condition at a garage sale for less than $20, but you'll be hard pressed to find it for less than $100 in even mediocre condition. I would give more information about it (ISBN, etc.), but I'm at work at the moment and don't have it on hand (does anyone read /. from home?).

    If you can find this book, it's a must-have for any Dune addict. (Hemos, if you don't have this one, you owe it to yourself to find it)
  • I have seen on the SCIFI channel that they are producing the TV series. It seems like they are keeping it pretty close to the books. The original movie was hard for most to follow, unless you had read the books. I hope this book leads to better reading than the last. ThinkGeek.
  • personally i think this sort of thing is bizarre. I write. nothing you folks can read but if i were to ever kick the bucket and my child wanted to complete my work for me i would come back from the grave and throttle them. first i'd be disappointed that they couldn't come up with their own ideas. second i'd be pissed that they felt they could do as well as i.

    on long stories. I love long stories in science fiction. Dune and Foundation really sated my appetite for sometime. I just love seeing the references back and the foreshadowing of the other books. its obvious but its so much fun to think to yourself "wow i know who's about to appear on the next page" and then turn the page and there is a character or a reference to a character that you practically slept with for a week while reading the first book (if it actually takes you that long to read it) thats why i love those long sotries with recurrin g characters and the children of characters appearing in and out of the stories. the problem with herberts son doing Dune. by his doing it he changes the characters and the people i expect to be familiar are like some kind of pod-person.

  • Who's really going for this?

    Frank was the bomb. This....well...probably isn't.

  • Re:Amen (Score:1)

    by dru ( 4742 )

    Brian Herbert and Anderson obviously spent a lot of time studying Frank's style

    but they didn't succeed worth shit.

    I'm still trying to get the taste of that 1st book out of my mouth.

  • Isaac Asimov (author of the original Foundation books) was a pioneer in continuing other author's worlds, not that he did it himself, but he promoted the idea of other writers doing it. Yes, I agree that the original author puts a stylistic imprimatur on their work, but sometimes, the story can carry on in others' inspirations. The Foundation sequels are actually pretty well done IMO.

    Kevin Anderson, on the other hand, is just not that good a writer, and neither is Brian Herbert. I have read a few of the solo books of both and can confidently say that I have no interest in reading anything they collaborate on. Sudanna, Sudanna [fatbrain.com], for example, was amusing, but eminently forgettable. Blindfold [fatbrain.com] was an easier read, but a very generic piece of sci-fi. Of course the people who wrote reviews at Amazon loved them.

    Personally I think Candle [fatbrain.com] by John Barnes (which was sort of reviewed here last week) was better than anything by either of these two authors, and Barnes might have the potential to be as much of a classic in his time as Frank Herbert is.

  • You left off: Lorna Doone!

    --

  • I was very disappointed with the use of those zap boxes, rather than a good, old fashioned crysknife. I was impressed by the shields, tho'

    I also wonder if they will still make the worms look like giant phalluses...
  • They did not detect him in the no-ship with powers it was broken he was phasing in and out.
  • I'm reading this book right now, and I found a rather large discontinuity in House Harkonnen.. When Liet decides to go to Salusa with Vernius, he meets Gurney. Well, why doesn't that relationship come out in Dune, when Gurney meets the Planetologist when the Atreides take over Arrakis? I liked the book despite the fact that is INDEED not the style of Frank. Even still it continues some important parts of the back story. The Ginaz information was the most interesting, next to Liet's journies.
  • I read House Atreides and yeah, it sucked. Brian Herbert and Anderson obviously spent a lot of time studying Frank's style, but they got precious little of his substance. Frank Herbert was a passionate and educated ecologist, as strong a scientist in his own right as Asimov and Clarke (regardless of what you think of their writing). The new books (I haven't read "Harkonnen" yet, nor do I plan to) have people acting and talking similarly, but with little coherent motivation.

    Also, who really gives a rat's ass? Dune is a messiah story. Writing prequels would be like writing prequels to the Bible. Who cares how Joseph and Mary met? Who their parents were?

    Of course, some people do, and these people are buying the new book. But I suspect that most people who buy these books are pining for the old days, wishing Herbert himself had continued the Dune series. My answer: go read something else of Frank's. Dragon in the Sea/Under Pressure, The Green Brain, Hellstrom's Hive, The Sanataroga Barrier, The Eyes of Heisenburg. Frank wrote many great novels, and there's something to learn from each of them.

    Also, notice my sig - I love Frank Herbert. :) His son's a sorry hack, though, and Dune isn't the sum total of his work.
  • IMHO, novels are defined by the author who wrote them.

    In that case, what do you think of Brian Herbert's plan to finish his father's last _Dune_ novel, based on his recently-discovered notes? Will that book be "defined" by the father or the son?
  • Dammit, I previewed, too. Should be Santaroga Barrier. Very interesting novel about ecological and psychological dependence.
  • I was working for a furniture company some 10 years ago. Late August, around 1 in the afternoon, maybe 100 degrees (F), 100% humidity, flies buzzing around a tractor-trailer packed full of school desks to be unloaded by three or four people. Driver opens the doors and this wave of hot air just rolls out of that trailer like he'd opened an oven. Dead silence, and then one of my coworkers (perhaps the only literate one) starts to intone:

    "Fear is the mind killer..."

    It was a highlight of my summer.

  • Tell me of your home world Usell (sp?)
  • I can't wait to check out the miniseries, but I think the GLOWING blue eyes of the Fremen are going to drive me batty. I think actual "blue within blue" would be so much more disconcerting than a silly neon-eyeball special effect. In all but the best light levels, "blue within blue" eyes would turn the eyes into black pits....creepy. I can understand the movie makers wanting to make sure we get it, but man, turn the volume down.

    I'm a little afraid that much of this series is going to suffer a similar problem of taking what are supposed to be subtleties, turning up the volume, and hammering them into us repeatedly.

    May the God-Emporer save us from catering to those with short attention spans and little imagination.

    ~~Galen~~
  • it seems that the series will be a visual masterpiece, nothing like the horrible David Lynch adaptation... The director of photography for the new series, Vittorio Storaro, is widely known as "the master of color" - and I think this is justified - so the film will probably be beyond eye candy

    1. Not everyone thinks the David Lynch adaptation was horrible (of course, some people are so enamored of Dune that they'll watch/buy anything with the name... [raises hand])

    2. "the master of color" -- so that means the Fremen now get blue glowing eyes like indiglo watches?! How colorful is the desert?

    I was actually thinking of picking up the new Dune book today at the bookstore, but not for $28 dollars! (Not even for $20...). Instead, I got a DVD for $10. Maybe that's why I shop at Half-Price books a lot...

    The first Dune prequel was entertaining, and irrestible because it was Dune, but a very, very light and quick read with little to no suspense. But I still liked it.
  • no, Chapterhouse: Dune was completed just before Frank Herbert's death - you may be thinking of The Ascension Factor, which he did not complete, but it was collabo anyway...

    while it's true that these Dune boooks lack the depth, insight, and conviction of Frank Herbert, they weren't written by Frank Herbert.

    the whole thing reminds me of Larry Niven and his Man-Kzin War series - his stories are undoubtedly the best of the series, but by allowing (in Niven's case) other authors to contribute to the whole world-building process, new writing styles and ideas and points of view make the whole thing much more rich.

    My two-line review on House:Atreides and House:Harkonnen: If you're looking for another Frank Herbert masterpiece, you'll be disappointed. If you would enjoy exploring the Dune universe through the eyes of two different authors, give them a read.

    for what it's worth, i liked them.

  • It is an observation that in general books produced not by the original authors aren't as good as the original ones. You may suppose this is becuase of puritanical reasons. It isn't really. I have tried to read Benford/Bear/Brin continuations of Foundation, as well as Lee/Clarke's continuation of Rama. (Why do you think I actually mentioned them? Becuase I tried!) Gave up halfway - not worth the effort. But YMMV.
  • The really tragic thing here is how little understanding of the history is shown in the first book, let alone direct contradictions such as the bull which kills the first Duke Leto not being killed in the arena by his son.

    William


    --
    Lettering Art in Modern Use
    http://members.aol.com/willadams
  • Have you heard there is a Sci-Fi channel "Dune" series coming out? The previews look like it is filled with special effects, and at least one "Velvita" level cheesy line.

    The Makers look the best I have ever seen them, much better than the movie.

    I remember watching the movie, and thinking it was edited poorly and that it sucked. Then I watched the long version, and I remember thinking it was edited poorly, sucked and was sucking too long.

    -Gando
  • I enjoy reading fantasy series (less so these days) and I used to be big time into the Dragonlance series started by Hickman and Weis. The biggest problem I found with spin-off books was not only that they were written poorly (I was young, I didn't know the difference), the problem was that they were so inconsistent! It seemed like every book had some major revelation of the Dragonlance universe that spun the whole series a different way, or some element that just didn't make sense which (IMHO) spoiled the whole book.

    My question is this: How are spin-off books written? Do the spin-off authors even talk to the original authors or do they just read the originals and write what they feel like? I'm tossed up between the purist camp of only reading the originals and the I just want to find out more about this and I don't care if it's crap camp.

  • I have to agree.

    I saw the movie first. I LIKED the movie alot. It was good and I didn't have much trouble following it. However...it left out ALOT.

    What got me though was just that. Those voice weapons. it wasn't a terrible idea...it was just wrong. I kept expecting it in the book...it never showed up...frankly, I was glad. The book worked much better.

    Another thing...the whole famous thing "It is by will alone that I set my mind in motion"...did I miss that or was it JUST in the movie?

    I am glad I saw the movie first...because it was good. I think I would have hated the movie if I read the book first because it would have annoyed the hell out of me.

    -Steve
  • What I consider the very most valuable bit of information in the book are the conversations and anecdotes about leadership. They really make you look around you at our so-called leaders and think about what they're trying to accomplish. Also the way Paul slowly turned from a quite nice young guy to a IMHO tough piece of shit was impressive. I mean, face it, the Kwisatz Haderach wasn't really the person you'd like to hang out with, now was he?
  • I got the impression he was fully phased when they detected him. Still the issue of their being able to detect him mentally and at such range is well beyond what you get from the real Dune novels. I was a little annoyed even by the mind tricks played upon the Baron and his guards on the Sister's homeworld... too me they were way too strong... I don't remember anything from the original series hinting at the powers of mental projection that was exhibited by Sisters in HH. The real fault of the books is that the authors seem to endow major "groups" with powers/abilities not seen later in the true Dune novels. With some of what these authors endow upon their "favorites" its hard to imagine portions of Dune's later history from ever occuring.
  • Make that krys knife. I don't usually whine about spelling, but you just commited blasphemism!
  • 1) I think you can sum it up by saying that the prequels are light, pulpy reading. The originals most certainly are not.

    2.) "Vermillion" has two L's, Hemos. Yes, the phrase is annoying, but my sense of irony refuses to let you criticize it before you can spell it. ;)

    That is all.

    -Omar

  • ... but it has a way of driving many creative efforts.

    Another well-known spin-off of the original series is the Dune Encyclopedia. Impossible to get nowadays, but well worth a read if you're a fan. You can sometimes come across it at swap meets or library sales.

    There's also a core of fine fan fiction, such as Revenant of Dune [geocities.com], and some pretty good stuff at Usul's fandom page. [usul.net]

    And for those of you old-skool enough to be into MU*s, there's an excellent Dune-based MUSH at dune3.fremen.org 4201 [fremen.org], with an informative webpage at www.fremen.org/muds/dune3/ [fremen.org].

    THS
    ---

  • DUNE was worth reading, and could be argued to be a masterpiece.

    DUNE MESSIAH was a halfway descent sequal.

    CHILDREN OF DUNE would have been a descent place to stop, with Paul's end and the children taking over.

    GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE can be summed up like this: "I'm a big slug, and I have an army of amazons, and I'm so smart I keep reincarnating the same guy so he can take me by surprise and kill me."

    Needless to stay, I stopped after the fourth book. Sci Fi is about what you write, not how you write it--and DUNE degenerated from saying something interesting to being, well, something that I can't say in polite company.

    It's sad when Sci Fi authors do this. Of late, Anne McCaffrey (among others, I'm sure) has been more than guilty of this little sin.
  • The Silmarillion (by the then deceased J.R.R. Tolkein) may be the exception that proves the rule. It is listed as being edited by Christopher Tolkein, following in the pattern of universe-books-as-family-business.

    What the listing does not show is that the person who put flesh on the bones was Guy Gavriel Kay [brightweavings.com]. I much prefer his own writing, and the original writing of J.R.R., but the Silmarillion is a worthy contribution.

    Perhaps the standard we should use is not "Does this match the best of the original author's writings?", but instead, "Does this further my understanding of this universe, and do I enjoy this time in it?" That said, most continuations don't meet even the lesser criteria.

    As a reader, I would gladly accept any truly well written continuations, authorized or not. My favorite example of one that's well written is Nicholas Meyer's The Seven Percent Solution, although his other offerings to the Holmes ouvre are not quite so fine. Yes, I have read the Benford/Bear/Brin works, and I did not enjoy them as I enjoyed Asimov's Foundation.

    I enjoyed them, and that is enough for me.

  • Ok, Ok, I'm a yuttz. I went and did a search in the /. archive, and yes, you know about the SF Channel series.

    I hang my head in late news shame,

    -Shame Boy Gando
  • Oh I had not thought of David Drake but yes he could do a very good job. Also I just thought Jerry Pournelle would also be really good. Ok here is my, worthless, proposal. Neal tells us how the AIs came into being and why they hate humans then David Drake, Robert Jordan, and Jerry Pournelle each gives us one book during the war. Have not read the other author mentioned I should look him up. That would be very cool
  • "Dune" isn't a christ story, it's a 'the one' story. It doesn't matter WHO is the subject, it could be Tommy [imdb.com], Neo [whatisthematrix.com], Connor [imdb.com], etc...

    Remember, Moses was one, that's a HELLUVA long time before Christ...

    "Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
  • I don't think the movie was that bad up to the point where Paul and his mother have to flee the palace. Then we get to the laughable sandworms and it drops fast. (then when Alia hits the scene, ooooh yea, ripe b-grade movie stuff here! :) Basically, the first hour (sans the 6hr long versions' voiceover) is pretty good and does a decent job of capturing the politics and the class distinctions and just the SIZE of things, literally. What it doesn't capture, but that's emphasized strongly in the books, is that Dune is a planet that is completely devoid of any natural water source, even moreso than the deserts of Earth, and thus is completely hostile to humanity, yet the most valuable substance in the universe can only be found on this planet, and thus humanity's survival depends on the planet. Sure, they talked about it in the movie, and there's some imagery of it, but it's just a plot device as opposed to a constant theme. Compare this with Blade Runner: sure, the movie was dark and wet, but it reflected the human condition; throughout the movie, we have many different scenes and places, but not once did we see anyone enjoying themselved -- the future is a dark cold place.

  • I love Dune. From the moment I first dug it out of the school library some 14 years ago I have loved it - the book contains some truly great stuff; characters, plot, wierd 'n' kooky science fiction stuff. It has it all. Some of the best science fiction ever written, it would definitely come in my top five sci-fi (along with Neuromancer, Excession, The Nanoflower and Consider Phlebas).

    (The film, despite what many people think, is verging on a masterpiece although I admit that it bastardises so much of the book. I guess I just like David Lynch movies.

    "And he will know, he'll know that it is I, Baron Valdimir Harkonnen who encompasses his doom! Muah ha ha ha ha haaaaa!" - It just doesn't get any better than that.)

    Then I read 'Dune Messiah' and it wasn't bad. It had some of the same plotting elements but lacked the gritty nastiness and sheer beauty of Dune. I decided not to read any of the rest after 'God Emperor of Dune', it sucked: Unfortunately Frank Herbert just lost the suspension-of-disbelief element for me with the 'Golden Way', just a rehash of the Kweisatz Hadderach elements already discussed and in no way as good. (I did like the revelation that the bene tleilaxu created their own supreme being who ultimately committed suicide, as of course, does Paul.)

    Elgon

  • A tangent: I've never been a real fan of Kevin J. Anderson's work. In terms of the Star Wars series, Timothy Zahn pretty much defined that series, IMHO. So, to be upfront, Anderson is fighting an uphill battle with me

    Tell it, brother! Anderson's stuff stinks of trying to emulate Zahn and failing. Miserably. When I saw Kevin's name on this book, I immediatly thought back to his Star Wars books.

    Anderson's Admerial Dallaa is a far cry from the kick-butt strategy of Zahn's Thrawn.


    ------

  • This is the version I always use:

    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
    It is by the beans of Java the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

    John

  • ok, I admit I did not read House Harkonnen, but I read House Atreides. The thing is, it lacks the depth of any of the real Dune books. As a stand alone adventure story it's ok, but it's by no means in the same league as the original books. That said, I will probably read House Harkonnen, for no other reason than to make another journey into the Dune Universe.
  • You're totally right. A book is only as good as the person or people who write it. But I think it's more an issue of bias towards one style of writing which one has become used to rather than a complete or partial lack of either originality or genius. You read Dune, all of the books, like I have, and you start to get an idea of what the author is thinking about. You start to get used to it, and you become almost expectant of it. So naturally when someone else tries to continue in the same vein of the series, yet with a different style, your first reaction as a fanatic would be to absolutely reject the premise that someone could continue such a masterpiece. So even though the writing _might_ be as good or even sometimes better, you decide you don't like it as much. Just my $.02

    The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all, is the person who argues with him.

  • It's never impossible to get a book. You can find a used copy of the Dune Encyclopedia, if you are willing to pay for it. The best site for this is BookFinder [bookfinder.com] which is a search engine that allows you to search many used book stores. I found copies of the Dune Encyclopedia from about $50 to about $250. So, if you are truly obsessed, you can find anything.

    Thalia

  • Oh, you are so wrong (IMHO) (Score:4)

    by legLess ( 127550 ) on Wednesday November 15, 2000 @08:03AM (#622527) Journal
    Granted, Frank Herbert wasn't the greatest writer of all time. Like many science fiction authors, his ideas were sometimes better than his execution. The rest of the Dune series, however, is fascinating. If you stopped after Dune Messiah I don't blame you - it's easily the weakest of the 6. Many people don't know that he wrote the first 3 books more or less at the same time. He's written (in the intro to Children of Dune, and elsewhere) that he spent 6 years researching and plotting the story before he laid pen to paper to begin writing. I think this shows - Messiah feels a little like a stepping stone to Children.

    The last 3 are very different. God Emperor of Dune, for all its faults, is one of the most fascinating character studies ever put to paper. It's a good book, too, and worth a read. The last 2 focus very strongly on the Bene Gesserit, and make up somewhat for the 2D female characters in the first 3 books.

    No one before or since Frank Herbert has realized such a coherent (I don't mean, of course, "correct") vision of the future. His books are political, economic, ecological, religious. Most science fiction ignores this as background noise, but he correctly believes that it drives character motivation to a great degree.

    So yeah, leave Messiah alone. I re-read the series earlier this year, and I couldn't get through more than 40 pages of it. So I skipped it. Children is better. And I think you owe it to yourself to at least give God Emperor a try.
  • Yes, Dune should be required reading for anyone interested in politics. Paul went from breaking up over killing Jamis (can't exactly remember his name) in Sietch Tabr, to dismissing with a wave of his hand the billions that his Jihad had killed. And no, I wouldn't want him for a friend. :)
  • I'll say yes to that. It has to be enjoyable, preferably with the same style and extending its universe in a coherent fashion. An example is Dan Simmons' Hyperion, and Fall of Hyperion. Two books of wholly different styles, but hanging together nicely. I can't imagine anyone else coming in to write consistently within that universe.
  • What was most annoying with House Atréides was that the authors could have consulted the Dune Encyclopedia , because there are annoying discrepancies here and there.

    And the baron being a fitness freak seems just a cheap way to think of a Bene Gesserit punishment...

    --
    Americans are bred for stupidity.

  • First, I just have to say that even though many think the Dune sequels were not
    very good, I find the entire DC quite good. Though Dune Messiah was somewhat
    thin, I thought Children of Dune was very good, setting up the rest of the
    Chronicles perfectly. God Emperor was a bit slow, but had lots of good
    philosophy. The last two, which are really just one book (Heretics &
    Chapterhouse), are superior to the original in my opinion. I think the original
    Dune didn't really even start to expound upon the main themes of the DC, mainly
    what it means to be _human_ and the constant need for change in order for
    humanity to survive. It's not until after CoD what we get to the Golden Path,
    the Scattering, etc, which are essential to DC's overall theme. And the last
    two feature the Bene Gesserit, who have become less than human in order to save
    humanity. Very very good stuff.

    As for the prequels... blech. Not only are the characterizations paper-thin,
    there's huge inconsistencies with the rest of the DC. Yes, FH had some within
    his own world as well, but none so glaring. The BG as protrayed in the prequels
    have powers way beyond what was presented in the DC. Not to mention there was
    no such thing as no-technology (no-ships etc) until the time of the God
    Emperor. There's also many other events such as characters meeting in H:A and
    H:H who meet for the first time in Dune. Maybe there'll be some kind of time-
    warp in the next prequel. :-P If you're a real Dune fanatic, just check these
    out from the library if you have to. Don't give money to BH and KJA for
    bastardizing FH's works.
  • your melange may vary????
  • It has been many years since I've read the book, and though the concepts may all still be in my cavernous skull, the spelling has gone the way of the dodo.
  • Fine, if you want to ignore the sequels to Rendezvous with Rama simply because of Clarke's collaboration with Lee. IMHO Clarke could not have written the series (Rama 1 - 4, I'd rather exclude parts 5/6 by Lee alone) nearly as well just by himself. I enjoyed the series a lot, and that's what matters.

    On the same lines you could argue you want to ignore any version of Linux not written by Linus alone, although collaboration might have improved it a bit.

    --

  • Unfortunately, that's a load. Anyone who was seriously going to sit down and write a Dune prequel/sideline/whatever should be required to find a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia.

    The Baron was a sick, twisted individual who ended up having sex with his own mother-- then killing her. Shortly thereafter, he began to entertain and explore his latent homosexuality, and continue his slide into decadence.

    After picking up on some of the non-events in the prequels, I'm going to have to give them a pass. I loved the hell out of Dune, and I don't want to see it debased with silly prequel tripe.

  • No-ships? In the Dune prequels? According to the original series, no-[ships/chambers] were developed during the reign of the God-Emperor, long after Paul was dead. I was thinking of reading these, but now I know for certain that it would be a mistake.
  • The first thing I ever read by Kevin J. Anderson was the Jedi Academy Trilogy of Star Wars books. I've not let myself make the same mistake again.

    --Ty

  • What is the plural of 'Harkonnen'?
  • Blasphemer! Ok, I you meant "Herbert," but you did say "Hubbard." That's scary, man.

    What I'm saying is that Dune is complete. Frank Herbert invented the story and characters, set them in time and space, and let them loose. The only meaningful addition to the series would be something like The Silmarillion (sp?) - very dense mythology and history.

    What these dolts (Brian Herbert and Whatshisfuck) don't realize is that you don't have to write everything down. Ernest Hemingway always said (paraphrase), "I write on the principle of the iceberg. I know much more about the story than I write down. Everything you know about a story that you don't write down makes the story stronger." Stronger as in coffee - for a given amount of coffee beans, the less coffee you make from it the stronger it is.

    Frank's son is participating in the willful dilution of his father's work. Brian's stuff is nothing new. He's trying to flesh out notes that his father left, and doing a sorry job. Exactly how sorry a job? Well, he needed to bring in a ghost writer to help him. If he were capable of writing the thing himself, I'm sure the publishing company would have preferred that.

    (An example of how to do this well is Christopher Tolkien, who's made a life's work of studying his father's writings. Christopher is generally recognized as one of the foremost Tolkien scholars in the world. He illuminates JRR's work better than anyone. Of course, Frank didn't leave 10% as much unfinished as JRR did, so Christopher had more material to work with. More talent, too.)
  • OK, so it's a cheap exploitation, and its authors lack the depth of vision that Frank Herbert had. But if you're *going* to do a cheap exploitation, they picked a pretty good place to hang it on the story lines. Trying to write Dune: Volumes 7,8,9 would have been an utter failure - even Frank Herbert was running pretty dry on stories by the end. Picking a random thread and going sideways would be pretty lame, though perhaps Frank left around some notes they could use; writing Other Children Of Dune to try to make up for the relatively lame Children Of Dune would only emphasize that Frank was the better writer, since they'd be lamer than it was. Doing a prequel at least gives you *some* chance to think about "where did these characters come from? What makes them tick?" which wasn't in the original. Worst you can do is come out like the lasest Star Wars I: A New Prequel.
  • I see this is posted as news, but why not create a separate story category for book reviews? Surely that's more apropos. (And since I've raised the subject, I'd still like to see a separate category for religion | metaphysics | spirituality, since that's come up from time to time.)
  • Is the princess/Leto storyline "Stale and predictable" because its poorly written or because you've read Dune and know that Leto has only one child, Paul, and lives with the Lady Jessica, so you "know" that something has to happen to both of them.

    When reading prequels, it is REALLY important to remember that you are prescient. You KNOW how it turns out in the end. It's like reading the last chapter of a mystery novel. You've not going to encounter suspense on major plotlines like that -- its just not possible. What you ARE going to get is the background into "What made 'character' who he/she is?"

    That's not to say there won't be suspense at all, simply that it will be in "the details"... the rules of war / swordmaster training plotline, etc. You know he's a Swordmaster, but its all the fine details of that process that are withheld and slowly spoonfed back out.

    Overall I liked both, and can't wait for Dune: House Corrino to come out (next year is it?)

    D

  • Hemos you left out... (Score:4)

    by SquadBoy ( 167263 ) on Wednesday November 15, 2000 @07:16AM (#622567) Homepage Journal
    The Duncan Idaho storyline with the swordmasters or Ginaz and the background on the rules of war. This I thought was *very* cool. No it is not Dune and maybe someone besides Anderson should have been brought in but I thought that overall it was very solid. Now what I would like to see the do is take Brian (for the names sake) and someone else (Neal Stephenson leaps to mind) and do a set of books based during the Butlerian Jihad (sorry if my spelling is off at work nothing to check with) Stpehenson because I think his take on the AIs would be great. I would love to have a book with the Battle or Corrin in it. OTOH I really hope they don't do a book about Paul's birth I think that would take things just a step too close to the great original.
  • Continuations, prequels, dossiers, etc. done by other others. Some is just milking it, some is just other people fulfilling their own literary fantasies (Now if I wrote a Dune book it'd go this way...), but not often worth it. Granted, sometimes the original author goes off on bizzare tangents (i.e. Douglas Adams) leaving the faithful scratching their heads.

    --

  • The original Dune books have the Duke as having always been a fat bastard, not an fitness fanatic layed low. In trying to "reveal" some hidden portion of the Dune past in their money milking prequels (ooh, sounds familiar!) they ignored the fact that the Baron was portrayed as a lazy sensualist when he posseses Alia, causing her to become overweight and slothful.

    Ignoring the original series, its religion and its subtlety can also be tacked on to the list of problems with this abuse of the Dune name...

  • Poor Duncan... (Score:4)

    by Atreides_78723 ( 228515 ) on Wednesday November 15, 2000 @07:18AM (#622573)


    I always feel so bad for Duncan Idaho. Eight books spanning five thousand years and they just won't let him stay dead...

  • Kinda like Kenny from South Park..

    "Oh my god, they killed Duncan!! YOU BASTARDS!!"


    Sean

  • When I saw Dune at the theater they actually gave you a sheet of paper with a *glossary*! Not a good sign the movie will be easy to follow. I think I still have it lying around somewhere.

    Hopefully the SciFi series won't have characters whispering their thoughts to themselves. Whenever Kyle McLachlan kept whispering "the spice..." to himself I wanted to yell "Yo, Spice Boy! No one can hear you!"

  • Re:Amen (Score:2)

    by Masem ( 1171 )
    Also, who really gives a rat's ass? Dune is a messiah story. Writing prequels would be like writing prequels to the Bible. Who cares how Joseph and Mary met? Who their parents were?

    Actually, a prequel to the Bible is a rather deep thought, isn't it? :D

    But seriously, prequels all depend on the series, the authors, etc, particularly if they are a messiah series. Take Foundation; Asimov wrote about a future of humanity that basically seems to follow all standard sci-fi genre; massive colonization, faster-than-light drives, a robot holocaust, etc. Because his Foundation world is so 'predictable' up to the point of "Foundation", he doesn't go into much about how we got there, what the technology actually is, etc, nor was there a need to. Instead, we launch into the first with the introduction of pyschomathematics and the vision of one man that sees the falling of this empire and the need to preserve knowledge. The 4 sequels that Asimov wrote take that long term planning and show how it works out, including and not limited to flaws in the plan (The Mule) and the fact that there was multiple redudancy in it to take care of those problems. Given all this, the prequel which was about this one man and the developement of this long-range science was a pretty good work , and worked well for basically the backstory of a messiah. Would the Foundation series have worked so well if Prelude to F was the first book published? Probably not, as Prelude was a bit more focused on the one man rather than the long-term fate of the Empire.

    Dune's a bit different; the universe that Hubbard arranged is somewhat more unique: we still have vast empires, interstellar travel, but the government's now controlled by powerful houses, and what we normally think of as the limits of human ability are above and beyond what we can imagine today. However, Dune does start with the introduction and 'awakening' of our messiah, so any prequels are going to have to set the stage for that universe: how did the bene gessert come about? how are Mentats trained? how did the guild come about? Sure, these are answered indirectly in the existing books, but a more thorough history might be most interesting to read. However, based on comments here and this review, it sounds like more that all they are trying to do here is go back one generation and set up the players for the actions in Dune. Now, true, Dune was probably written with more of a focus on politics than science fiction, so the setting the stage idea does work here, but we aren't really gaining anything new about Paul, so these books start to lose the focus of the original series.

  • Seeing the Dune movie on SciFi a little while ago and reading Dune: House Atreides prompted me to start reading the entire series once again (much to the chagrin of my fiancee), and I don't recall reading anything about Alia getting fat. There was mention about her maintaining a youthful appearance, which made people think she had become Abomination, but nothing about being fat. Towards the end she also took on numerous willing lovers (most of which ended up dead eventually), which seems somewhat inconsistent if she had become fat and lazy.

    Maybe I need to read it again. I'm half way through Chapterhouse:Dune, which I've always thought of as Herbert going off on some kind of strange religious episode or something and not at all in the same vein as the rest of the series.

    I also had a problem with House Harkonen inventing the first no-ship in Dune: House Atreides. Completely against what was said in Heretics about the discovery of Leto II's archives in the first primitive no-chamber.

    I think I'll wait until this latest installment appears in the local library before checking it out.
  • Well, I gotta add my 2 cents.
    I started reading the books *after* seeing the movie. I enjoyed the movie, and after reading the first Dune, I could see what Lynch was doing: trying to condense a 500+ page book into a 2hr movie is not going to please anyone, so do the best you can trying to fit an ending onto it.

    Now, as for the books, IMHO, God Emporer tried my patience and seemed to go nowhere. I almost gave up halfway through it, but was determined to finish it.

    Now, Chapterhouse, that I found very intriguing! It was like God Emperor sucked all the momentum out of the series, and it was picking up steam with Chapterhouse.

    Having said that, I think prequels to Dune make about as much sense as the sequels to "Bladerunner," ie pointless. Esp. since those were sequels to a Movie, not the PKD book. Argh, adaptations, deletions and sequels. Just ask Spielberg: his sequels (JP2, Indy 2) always suck.


    Pope

    Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
  • Ok, sure, Paradise Lost is by any measure one of the greatest literary achievements. I've read it several times, and despair of ever understanding what Milton wanted me to. First, of course, I don't share his beliefs. Secondly, however, Milton had a good 100 IQ points on me, and a near-photographic memory to boot. He assumes, actually demands, that his readers are well-versed (no pun intended, of course) in a stunning catalog of literature. Having said that, it's worth reading for the language alone.

    But, if you take that quote of mine and drop it back into context, I'm pretty clearly talking about the New Testament, for which no prequel has been written (AFAIK). You could argue that the OT is prequel, but it's so far removed in time as to stretch the definition of "prequel" to breaking point.

    I don't know much about secret societies (just what I see on the backs of dollar bills ;), so I'll let that go. It wouldn't surprise me, however.

  • Why Bother? (Score:4)

    by (void*) ( 113680 ) on Wednesday November 15, 2000 @07:21AM (#622601)
    IMHO, novels are defined by the author who wrote them. That is why I have ignored the Benford/Bear/Brin additions to the Foundation novels, the Lee/Clarke sequels to A Rendevous with Rama. With Dune, even the sequels don't compare, in terms of literary quality and insight. For me, the series has ended. It does not matter one bit if Brian Herbert wants to milk the series for all its worth. The genius and spirit of the original is just not there anymore.


  • I mean, there has rarely been a more long-winded, dull book with shoddy characterisation, awful prose and a setting that lacks interest. If it wasn't for the fact that the other science fiction around at the time was even worse, nobody would have ever even considered Dune, let alone call it a "classic".



    One of the reasons that I loved the dune series was their scope. Few books in any genre manage to successfully (or even unsuccessfully) carry a story over several thousand years.

    It was interesting to watch the development of their government, the way the Bene Gesseret would engineer religions and entire societies, the way the God Emperor built up Arakkis...

    Sure, some of the dialogue was a bit bogged down, but I sat down and read the first 5 books in less than a month. It also gave me a lot of interesting ideas about OUR society and cultural development, which (IMHO) was Herbert's whole point to begin with.

    Sometimes it isn't the plot line that causes something to succeed or fail... it's the effect on the reader that make it great.
    -The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)

  • Question - Does anyone know whether this will be any good? I was watching the Dune movie (the long version) on sci-fi a while back and I kept thinking how it hadn't aged especially well. A lot of the effects just don't look good, or even worse, look like obvious special effects.

  • All of these Brian Herbert books are written based on a very small (less than a hundred pages total) collection of Frank Herbert's notes they found in the attic. I would much rather see the raw notes collected into a book, than to see these hacks try to write 500 pages of drivel to fill in the spaces between the actual stuff Frank Herbert wrote.
  • The new prequels are worh reading once for their elaboration of the Dune universe. However they lack depth and sublty. The original series you could get more out of it re-reading it several times because there was a lot of texture and under-explained background.

    This is the same as Kubrick's space odyssey versus the sequel. Kubrick explained little- just presented imagery and action. 2010 explained everything and took the mystery out of it.

  • The Dune website said this is the title of third volume. I presume it covers Paul's childhood, goes more into depth about the Emperor's machinations, and the reason for awarding Arakis to the Attredies. The book has been finished and is in editing.
  • I suspect that would be fertile ground for exploration of the Dune Universe. That is the major historical event in Dune history (I forget about 2000 years earlier). It laid the ground for the new organizations like the Guild, Bene Gesserit, Ix, Empires etc.
  • In the six or so millennia of human history that we have decent archeological and written records- the Jewish-Christian-Islam religious triad is a late-comer. Egypt and Mesopotomia each had a fairly stable pantheon going for 3-4 thousand years or more. Why was there a lot of religous flux for the millennia 600 BCE - 400 CE and then things fossilize again? Frank Herbert looks at another religious upheaveal in the far future, and millennia-old organizations behind the scenes.
  • First off, the characters are not that one dimensional as you claim. I grant you that some are, but they are usually fringe characters. The later books in the Dune series had similar characters too, pretty much simple but needed to move plot along.

    Now the Ixian prince is interesting because he wants/wanted to do something but never had the chance to learn how to act as he should of. In essence he had to learn his role while Duke Leto learned his. His big problem was that its very hard to learn a role when your actions are constrained such as his. For the most part I think he fell by the wayside as his sister obviously took center stage in the second book.

    The books do provide lots and lots of background helping explain how the situation arised in Dune. I don't find them bastardizing the stories, for me they finally fill in the little details that were seemingly missing.

    As for the book naming, the authors simply laid down names for the series without regard to the focus of the books. However the second book does concentrate a lot more on Harkonnen people that the first. BUT, where you are confused is that you seem to expect it to concentrate on the Baron, but he is not all that is Harkonnen. Duncan and Gurney are both involved heavily, and their stories are very important to set how the Harknonnen worlds were/are.

    As for the Emperor and the Bene Tleilaxu situation is very interesting and folds in well with the last 3 books of original Dune (with artificial spice).

    Now the only issue I have with the books is the power exhibited by the Bene Geserits (sp?). To me the current authors have made them too powerful in the aspect of their mental powers. Sorry, but the fact they could detect Rabban in the no-ship was uncalled for and not-canon. It was an ability the sisters did not have in Chapterhouse. If all they had to do was detect people then the issues in Chapterhouse about detecting no-ships would have been a moot point.

  • If you are a Dune fanatic, like I am, you've probably already ... turned away in disgust at people who try to make a living off the back of dead writers.

    TWW

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