SDMI; MusicNet; Felton 98
The NYTimes had an article this morning about MusicNet, a new venture of Real and the record industry to provide pay-per-listen music to the masses. (Read the AP version if you don't want to register with the Times.) Meanwhile, CNET reports that SDMI adjourned from their most recent meeting without picking any technologies to go forward with - an admission that they are all thoroughly broken, by the team led by Professor Felton, who spoke yesterday at Stanford.
Link to times article (Score:1)
Direct link to the NYT article [nytimes.com]
$10/month for 75 songs? (Score:1)
We've already lost (Score:1)
Time for changes (Score:1)
The remaining question (Score:2)
I know nothing they do alters _my_ intention of putting my music out there for the widest possible distribution, preferably using P2P networks to supplement ordinary web sites.
So, in the long run, in order to be able to compete with a rent-music model, the music industry has to be able to literally suppress me and take away my ability to legally put my music out there for people to have- because there are loads of people in my position, including a lot of the skilled musicians of decades past who are out of fashion now.
In order for this 'rental' nonsense to really work, the biz has to _suppress_ other music in much the same way Microsoft has to suppress open source software to hang onto its monopoly.
I'm curious to see what they'll try to do. Besides crushing all P2P mediums and changing the consumer media format to something where you need a $200,000 license for the encryption key to produce media for the players, that is. o_O
something I am womdering about... (Score:1)
I have to pay to listen to a song each time I do so.
this assumes I want to listen to that song RIGHT NOW. this also assumes I don't have about $4 worth of cabling to hook up a radio to my computer and record it that way. sure, it's not the quality I like, but if I was that nuts about the quality I'd record all my mp3s at the max bps and not listen to the radio at all. if I had to pay each time I listened to a song you can forget my EVER doing anything BUT listening to the radio. I buy a CD so I can listen to an album. not so I can listen to a song. when I just like one song by an artist, I just listen to it on the radio, and if I get to like it enough I get an mp3. if I hear the album at some point, and really think it's really good (like black lab, big wreck, or eve 6 to name a few of the underappreciated bands I've heard) I'll go get it and wait with bated breath for the next album to come out. and listen to the whole album. a lot. now they say "hey! let's charge him each time he hears each song!" I say "Screw that!" and stop buying any albums, artists that don't release enough of their songs go completely under my radar, and everyone loses. doesn't anyone (in the record industry) see this? they're killing their own revenue stream...
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All that glitters has a high refractive index.
there's no privacy right here (Score:1)
Many believe that the authors of the Constitution did not bother to set forth any rights to privacy, simply because it never occurred to them that it could be taken away. Things like long range directional microphones and satellite photography were completely inconceivable during that era.
Re:Two BIG problem with this strategy (Score:3)
The economics of scarcity that permitted the media industries to grow into their present form has been changed irrevocably by digital technology. People are likely to continue to spend money on music and other media, but "how much money?" and "under what circumstances?" have become open questions. It's just gotta suck when your business model goes *poof*. 8-)
Doomed... (Score:1)
sure it's not (Score:1)
he sould be convicted
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:2)
So, as long as the yankees will be stupid, they will have the DCMCA, and region-locked DVD players.
Fortunately, it seems that the rest of the world is not as stupid as the yankees are.
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Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:1)
But, yes, assuming that the successes with CSS and SDMI can be extended forever is ridiculous. But then Slashdot is full of ridiculous people. Thanks for your post.
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Re:You speak from ignorance (Score:2)
Actually, come to think of it, there's a big difference. Your 60 DVDs are helping pay for the next system which isn't built so stupidly. DVD's content protection was flawed to begin with and many people (including CircutCity Divx) said so. "Fair use" by thinking you (or someone) can stay one step ahead of them technically is not a solution (and frankly, nobody cares if you go to a lot of trouble to skip some commercials). Fair Use from a corporate system that recognizes that right is.
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Re:heads up... (Score:1)
Re:So that they will get the point. (Score:1)
The hard truth here is that not everyone agrees with these ethics, and even if they do, they don't consider something like music to qualify. (They are wrong in their actions, but not in their intent.) This is called a free market, and the force right now being applied to the music companies, software companies, and hardware makers is called 'Market Pressure'. Most people know damn well that they should be able to have loose enjoyment of their music, and will exercise it (wrongly) by doing what it takes to enjoy. This means breaking some agreements.
I do this by buying CD's and trading tracks with friends. This does two things. 1) Brings down the cost of obtaining new music to an acceptable level and... 2) Lets me experience new things without high cost.
Those two things are what people want, and unless the industry gives it to them, they are going to exercise other means to get it. They will do this because 40 Million of them found out that they can and have told the rest.
It this right? No. Is speeding? No. Do people do it? Hell yes they do, because they know they can.
Boycotts work to a degree, but with something like this, getting the average joe to understand what they are boycotting and why is too large a task. It won't have the effect that is needed to do the right thing.
I do try to support my views by recommending products and services that are open and reasonable. When you walk into a store with someone and they say "Why do you want that DVD over this one?" "They look the same, and just play the little disks right?" You know thats a tall order to explain why one player should be bought over another. You get to the end, and they say "Well that does not matter to me, I am just going to watch movies." Depressing.
Given that, I happily watch the market pressure do its thing, and make sure as many as possible understand why these things are going on.
Peace,
Pay Per listen is just not going to happen! (Score:2)
Pay per play is problematic for a few reasons. (There are lots more.)
1. People are used to just buying music and being able to do what they want with it.
2. Paying by the song will be annoying. The work you do to listen is about as much as the listening itself. Besides, who listens to music at their computer. Sure we all have our mp3 collection, but how valuable is that really if you have to be at the machine to listen?? Monthly subscription models will mitigate this somewhat, but still there is the problem of copies. If people can't make them easliy, then they are still tied to their machine. Not too appealing.
3. People want to trade tracks. Why not profit off of that? Answer: Control. Alternative labels could make good use of something like Napster and friends to get known and compete. God knows the majors can't have that!
If I could predict the future....
--------------- Begin Wistful Fantasy ------------
1. RIAA -vs- Napster.
2. Napster gets neutered.
3. The slightly smarter consumer goes to one of at least 10 alternatives, or at the least just starts
trading tracks through ICQ or something similar.
4. RIAA and friends push hard for content controlled inferior means of distribution. In doing this they blow much of the gift that P2P technoloiges offer in the first place, but they take the long view, and decide maybe it is worth it, after all if they are the only means of distribution, even if it sucks, they will win in the end.
5. The slightly smarter consumer just moves the content off the content controlled platform, if they even buy any of it, and goes about business as usual...
6. The Feds watch in amusement as the battle goes on and on and on...
7. SDMI arrives stillborn, and is "supported on the windows platform", new players sporting lots of colorful logos appear. The slightly smarter consumer asks "Why?" I have that now!
8. The hardware guys don't like any of this so far because they just want to sell things, and the only way that works for the masses is if it is simple. People buy their stuff now, anything that makes that harder is not in their interest so...
9. SDMI will get about the same attention as AM Stereo did.
10. The Fed decides that they have been here before, and lays down the law. People like Hatch see that they can actually make some rules, and look good to the voters, so they do what they can to please the largest number of them. Soft money only goes so far. When push comes to shove, the RIAA does not have the numbers voterwise so they get the shorter end of this exchange.
11. Through all this the slightly smarter consumer has already found and mastered a number of alternatives. The hardware guys cater to these people as they are actually buying things. Easy, simple things, just the way they like to make them.
12. It takes the RIAA 10 years to pay off their investment in content control due to the lack of paying users on their new services. But again they take the long view and realize that they are getting paid anyway, and that they are in control.
13. RIAA begins to market around the new services in an attempt to boost revenue, and gets sued by the mainstream retailers, because of unfair competition and price fixing. RIAA is seen as trying to milk an old business model at the expense of their partners. (They are still trying to sell CD's at $16.99...)
14. New labels sprout up that utilize an alternative distribution model. It is P2P based. Their fans begin selling for them. The artists have a lot of control in the process, and share in the success. New labels make services avaliable for the small talented groups that would otherwise get looked over. Reasonably easy online access results in lots of exposure. They partner with Amazon for those more mainstream buyers that still want their traditional media, and those same angry retail outlets by helping to fund their law suits against the RIAA.
Eager to level the playing field the new labels are more than happy to invest a little as they are now beginning to take the long view of things... Because they are young, and can adapt they are confident that they can compete in the new more open distribution channel, their future looks bright indeed.
In the end, people are going to get what they have now. Access to a large music catalog unfettered with albums, and unwanted tracks. The hard truth here is not ethically correct, but simple. The service and technology is here now. Somebody is going to use it, and they are going to continue to use it. Sombody will force the issue, but they are not going to just make a new thing like this go away because everybody wants it. Would be political suicide to do otherwise and deny the advantages of the technology that is out there now ready for people to use.
--------- End wistful fantasy ------------
Do I think this will happen? Maybe.
Do I want it to happen? Oh yeah. The sooner the better. I know damn well that current P2P technology permits people the freedom to get music they want, and make a ton of money. Any other lame pay to play scheme pales in comparison. One source quoted 40million Napster users at one point. That is a lot of people that are going to realize the same thing...
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:1)
I don't think it's just simple denial - there's real fraud being perpetrated against the RIAA and other content producers. No, not by "pirates", but by the SDMI technologists, the DVDCCA, etc. They've totally sold the content industry on their methods, knowing full well that they'd never stand for long. Their only problem is that they've been cracked before they could get the content industry totally bought into their plans. Otherwise they'd be sipping coconut-flavored drinks on a Caribbean island with lax banking laws at this point.
There's denial going on, but you'll know the worm has really turned when the MPAA finally starts lashing out at the technologists that promised the sky and delivered - for a while.
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Re:sure it's not (Score:1)
[OT, as seen on ESPN prior to last year's Fla/FSU game]
Remember, you can't spell "felon" without "Nole".
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Atomic Airplanes. (Score:1)
Sometimes you have to let the underdog have a shot, because sometimes that's where the best things come from. defeatist attitudes get you nowhere.
Re:price. (Score:1)
But let's not forget the important question:
"Which is easiest to use?"
Napster was a success because most people could use it right out of the box. I've never successfully downloaded a song with any of the Gnutella clients, and I consider myself more technically knowledgable than the average Napsterite. And MusicNet will most likely be easier to use than Napster.
Will vs. Logic. (Score:2)
Despite what information theorists tell them, the music industry presses ahead with schemes for encryption destined for failure. It's a classic case of "I know you told me it's impossible, but we'll show you by just going ahead and doing it!"
This is a great way to waste a huge amount of money. A couple good examples are the Atomic Airplane [megazone.org] attempts of the late 60's, and currently, President Bush's dogged determination to produce an missle defense system [time.com].
America's love of the underdog and the axle grease and spit way of getting things done can really get in the way of common sense sometimes. If the music industry would just get the fact that these watermarking and other various types of protection during widespread distribution are doomed to failure, perhaps we could all get on with enjoying some music online for a reasonable price.
Re:What happened with the paper? (Score:1)
I haven't checked to see whether they have put the paper online.
Re:The purpose of musicnet and duet (Score:2)
Hanlon's Razor:
Re:In a closed format only? (Score:2)
Microsoft, of course, has used a lot of astroturf to accomplish this - fake calls from phony members of the general public requesting WMP because "That other one doesn't sound good but the Microsoft software always sounds good." Of course, the people in charge of making the decisions are so blinded by the simultaneous offers of assistance that they usually fall for the obvious fake calls.
These companies are probably losing lots of money on this, but they see the future profits of total subjugation to their rule as so deleriously wonderful that they will be willing to sink a lot on this for a long time.
Little does NPR realize that that kind of ass-kissing will get them the same fate as pacifica, eventually. This is a hardball game.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Re:You speak from ignorance (Score:2)
Project X (Score:1)
Re:The cryptographic process (Score:1)
The cryptographic process (Score:2)
Re:The cryptographic process (Score:2)
Re:heads up... (Score:1)
Ergo, if there is no privacy, there's really no need for things like search warrants.
read my lips (Score:1)
nobody
Re:there's no privacy right here (Score:1)
i think so, anyway.
peter
Re:heads up... (Score:3)
um ... you do? i don't see that in my copy of the constitution ...
nobody
Re:Professor Felton (Score:2)
RIAA general counsel Cary Sherman told The Associated Press late Thursday that the [threatening] letter [from Oppenheim] was a mistake. "We simply weren't as sensitive as we should have been about how the letter would be perceived," Sherman said.
When asked if the RIAA would sue if the paper were published, as Felten fears, Sherman said "No."
I'm counting that as a win for the good guys...
What happened with the paper? (Score:2)
This paper explains and analyzes successful attacks submitted by the authors on four audio watermark proposals during a 3-week SDMI public challenge. Our analysis points out some weaknesses in the watermark techniques currently under SDMI consideration and suggests directions for further improvement. The paper also discusses the framework and strategies for analyzing the robustness and security of watermarking systems as well as the difficulty, uniqueness, and unrealistic expectations of the attack setup. [Keywords] audio watermark, data hiding, SDMI, attack analysis. [Websites] (1) http://www.cs.princeton.edu/sip/sdmi/ (2) http://www.ee.princeton.edu/~minwu/sdmi/rsch_sdmi
Re:You speak from ignorance (Score:2)
br.
Re:Fourth and Ninth Amendments to U.S. Const. (Score:1)
How effective are privacy advocates in reaching the masses? While privacy advocates view privacy as a fundamental principle, the (sheepish) masses just want to have and play their music, videos, whatever. As long as it "just works" for them, they don't give a damn about so-called privacy issues.
While we could launch a massive educational campaign on the web on how privacy issues affect people, explaining that citizens won't even be allowed to own what they have purchased---this is apparently what the music and software industry want---I would be concerned how effective this would really be, given that the likes of AOL/Time Warner has a stake in the recording industry and can cordon off a majority of the US internet users from any pro-privacy propaganda.
IANAB (I am not a businessman), so how does one promote privacy issues among the masses?
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:1)
They are both fundamentaly different.
SSH/PGP work on public/private key basis; You give people your public key, they encypt using the public key, but only you can decrypt since only you know the private key, and only the private key can be used to decrypt.
HE (Hollywood Encryption - CSS in particular) works the other way around. Only they have the encyption key, but everyone (e.g. dvd players) have the decrytion key (infact, there's actually multiple decryption keys). The point is that programs which decrypt, will need to store the key in some maner to access the media. This places the key in a vunerable state.
Re:The cryptographic process (Score:1)
Re:there's no privacy right here (Score:1)
Fourth and Ninth Amendments to U.S. Const. (Score:4)
i don't see that in my copy of the constitution
Cornell's copy [cornell.edu] of the U.S. Constitution contains a Fourth Amendment [cornell.edu] to protect some forms of privacy and a Ninth Amendment [cornell.edu] to provide for loose construction of the rights of the people, much as the "necessary and proper" clause allows Congress to spread its powers a bit. For example, the right to fair use is a Ninth Amendment extension of the First Amendment right to freedom of press; without it, the current implementation of copyright law would be on shaky constitutional ground. (Weather report for DMCA: earthquake warning.)
Re:Fourth and Ninth Amendments to U.S. Const. (Score:1)
And which of these says `citizens who voluntarilly give personal information to some company shall have the right to whinge if the company knows things about them'?
_O_
Re:heads up... (Score:1)
No search or seiszure is involved here. If this organisation asks you to agree to have your music use tracked before letting you buy their product, you have the option of saying yes or no. If you say yes, you are giving them the information voluntarilly.
Shock! My cable TV company knows what Pay Per View movies I watch!
The issue here is not one of rights, and fools who start yabbering on about rights and old bits of paper are just throwing up dust which hides the real issues of concentration of ownership.
_O_
heh (Score:1)
so pirate everything? (Score:1)
price. (Score:3)
With Gnutella and friends you pay $0 to play several million songs forever.
Which one is the better deal? Which one will users choose?
Whoa there, copyright is not the evil here (Score:1)
Now, does that mean get rid of the copyright laws that are being abused? Ask the NRA a similar question and you'll get the "cold, dead hands" answer. But there is a point there. I, like 4,000,000,000 other people have dreams of one day selling a script to hollywood, getting fabulously wealthy and dying of a drug overdose. However, the only thing that binds a production company to actually PAY me for my work is the copyright I have on it. In your guerilla-distribution scenario, my script would no doubt see the screen without me seeing a dime. It's THAT good.
Reform, not obliteration. Protest, not sabotage. And keep your hands off my copyrighted works!
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm downloading 23 mp3s on gnutella..... Ah, maybe there is no hope.
Re:How about this? (Score:2)
/Brian
Re:Goodwill (Score:3)
But anyway...
The industry has it even worse than that. Economy of scarcity aside (which it is, by now), there has been a general trend, driven originally by youth culture and especially the warez community of the early PC era, towards the total monetary devaluing of IP as we know it. I don't think anyone is going to argue that this trend won't continue now that Napster and Gnutella have blown the whole thing wide open (and Fraunhofer had best kiss its patents goodbye -- if there's any better way to screw up a revenue stream than the nudge-nudge-wink-wink-say-no-more distribution method Apple is using for iTunes, I'd love to see it).
The big question is how long it will take this whole mess to come crashing down. It's not far from that now...
/Brian
Professor Felton (Score:2)
Are they going to sue Professor Felton for talking publically about SDMI like they did last time?
[satirical question based on the asinine past actions of the SDMI group]
---
Check in...(OK!) Check out...(OK!)
Re:when is vorbis coming up ? (Score:3)
Re:heads up... (Score:1)
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:1)
But maybe it doesn't have to work all the time. As long as an encryption system makes it too fidddly/time consuming for most people to play music on their stereos and walkmans, it won't matter that there is a free copy floating around the net.
After all, people have been quite happy to buy regionally encoded DVD players.
The problem with this is... (Score:2)
Not meant to be flamebait but the Real players are easily the lowest quality media players available. Unfortunately, the better (WMP) and best (QT) options don't include Linux into their list of supported platforms.
Will people listen to and pay for music than sounds like it's being played from a 1920's era phonograph? Dunno. I just hope this isn't a future glimpse of the new standard of listening to digital music.
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:1)
There are a number of differences. The first and foremost has to do with what is being accomplished by the algorithm. In most cases, the recording industry is trying to protect something that has to show up in the "clear". This means they are vulnerable to recording after they have been decrypted. It also means that "authorized" devices can be used as an oracle to assist in the attack against them. There are also issues that can occur when devices allow mixed modes (playback MP3 and SDMI work). SSH and PGP are used for different, and ultimately much simpler tasks.
Another big issue is key management. Ignore the fact the CSS is a really horrible encryption algorithm for a moment. The DeCSS break exploited a key management issue. Furthermore, once the key was broken, they did not have any recovery scheme. Take another example, satellite receivers. The basic method of breaking this scheme is "cloning a valid box". They can get away with this because of two reasons: the information is universally broadcast, and the de-scrambler does not communicate information back to the host.
The watermarking used by the SDMI had another classic weakness... security by obscurity. A particularly fun quote from the "leaked" SDMI crack paper went to the effect that security by obscurity is a really poor idea when the technique has been patented! Essentially the watermark, as used by the SDMI, relies purely upon obscurity. If the contents of the watermark were encrypted using a good cryptographic key, they might be more useful for other purposes (such as tracking who originally bought the song, if the watermark was not removed).
Another issue is the concept of trusted hardware and checking in with a trusted host. Early smartcards were easy to break into, but it is getting more difficult all the time. I never heard of a DIVX crack, which I'm sure were made much more difficult by the requirement to dial-in and "check-up" on a regular basis.
Just to summarize the list of weaknesses, I believe a fairly difficult to crack system could be designed, if we just give up some of those pesky [real-world] requirements. Give me high-quality trusted hardware, use unique keys and format feeds for each device, require playback to interactively check with a centralized host (probably at the speaker level), OK to sacrifice sound/video quality to resistant watermarks in the system, and finally remove all devices that don't have these features. OK, it is a bit of a stretch, but this is what the recording industry is trying to accomplish. Luckily, they are not doing a very good job of it (CSS, SDMI so far), but I don't want to trust that they will keep on messing up.
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:1)
I wish I could find the link to the CSS anaylsis. The summary was that due to poor design the CSS algorithm had an effective bit strength of approx. 23-bits (despite 40-bits keys). I think that qualifies as "bad".
Comments on the Stanford Speech (Score:5)
Thanks to /. and a variety of other sources I already knew most of the information presented by the speech. There were a number of interesting quotes (from memory). He said the paper leaked to the internet was part of the peer review process, and the final paper was better (no details were discussed). He refused to discuss future strategy, but said he had not given up.
Perhaps the most important clarification to me was explaining exactly why the RIAA could make this threat. The DMCA encryption research exception only applied to researching, not to publishing (i.e. disseminating). Prof. Felten made some excellent points about the value of analyzing existing systems in security research, which is not generally recognized by the legal system. He also repeated several times that analysis is an important tool in many types of research. Although this is currently a computer security issue, he predicts the DMCA as it stands now will have a dramatic impact on many other areas of science and academia.
One of my favorite quotes, which did not make it into the Salon story went to the effect of "They made the threat, and once it was effective, tried to withdraw it". He also mentioned that there were some verbal communications from the RIAA, which made the threat even more clear.
John Gilmore (of DES Cracking fame) was also part of the hallway crowd. He was wearing his mind-bending shirt (a very brightly colored tie-died t-shirt with the NSA seal on it). After most of the crowd had dispersed, we went into the hall, and John wondered when "they" would be coming after him for his part in producing the contraband (he was waiving his co-authored book around Cracking DES: Secrets of Encryption Research, Wiretap Politics and Chip Design).
Indeed, one might almost think this is a government plot, as well as the more obvious RIAA/MPAA plot. Got any encryption research you want to discourage? Just use it in a copyright protection scheme, and now you have the ability to suppress any information about that technology.
Tried & true methods work best.... (Score:1)
And that is probably the only way they can stop people from sharing music....
Jaysyn
Re:heh (Score:1)
Jaysyn
Re:so pirate everything? (Score:1)
Wow....thinking of the above sentence for too long makes my head hurt with the possibilties....
Jaysyn
Pay per listen can work (Score:2)
You speak from ignorance (Score:5)
What experience do you have besides wearing your t-shirt? I've used CSS, firsthand, for legitimate ways to access the content I legally purchased. I've used it to avoid the commercials at the beginning of my The Sixth Sense DVD. I've used it to DivX;-) my Die Hard trilogy to watch on my laptop during a recent flight to California. I've used DVD Genie to defeat the region-coding to watch my legally purchased, Region 2 ER Season 1 DVDs without having to lock my DVD drive to region 2. Can you say the same?
I also mirror a DeCSS binary, DeCSS code (multiple versions), and region defeating software. I post explanations why DeCSS is ethical and legal to use. Not Robin Gross' saying "The MPAA sux" but my own, explaining my own legitimate uses with the 60+ DVDs I've purchased. Hell, I even bought the same t-shirt you did and contributed to the EFF. Let the MPAA laywers come to my door - I am a concerned supporter of DVDs who wishes to use his posessions beyond the limited ways the movie studios have predefined for me. I am a living, breathing example of why DeCSS is right.
So stop fucking telling me that I cannot be against CSS and still "have one of these things". The MPAA will not change their tune by you whiny 0.0000001% of the buying public saying, "I won't buy these. So there!" while patting yourselves on the back. Until they, the lawmakers, and the public at large see that THERE * ARE * SIGNIFICANT * AND * LEGITIMATE * USES * OF * DECSS nothing will change.
Flame away.
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Re:heads up... (Score:1)
Then don't buy their music.
Or if you really want to listen to music, just listen to the stuff that is over 20 years old (or listen to CDs for as long as you can). Despite what our current laws say, these older works should be under public domain.
Nothing wrong with a little civic disobedience. Just need to be a little selective about it.
Re:In a closed format only? (Score:1)
I'm not happpy with NPR on how they helped kill low power FM, and I'm not happy with the pacifica network takeover by corporate Nazis.
That aside, there really isn't a reason why NPR couldn't use MP3s or Vorbis for that matter. But I would be willing to bet that they got a sweetheart deal with Real (maybe they're an underwriter) to use their encoding tools so real could increase the use and distribution to their player spamware that you seem to need to upgrade every four weeks. They probably also like the fact that you can't save to your hard disk what your listening to.
However, I listened to it when it aired on my FM radio today.
I'm planning a couple of websites that will deal with all these issues (hopefully in a couple of months)
Talk of the Nation Science Friday (Score:3)
http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDat
The had the chair of the SDMI working group on, Talal Shamoon. Also, Jessica Litman, author of Digital Copyright : Protecting Intellectual Property on the Internet, and Lawrence Lessig.
It covered topics that have already being milled over here, but it was still interesting to listen to. The conversation was polite, but the SDMI guy was noticeably squirming at a couple of points (they did mention the Felton story). Ms. Litman really argued the need for fair use/public representation well. It ended on a caller saying the music industry is "greedy." All in all a good listen.
Two BIG problem with this strategy (Score:5)
Second, the systems being proposed in this article aren't flexible enough. Their current model is to alter the consumer music licensing model, moving from a perpetual personal use license, to the rental model mentioned in the aticle:No consumer would go for this. It ranks up there with Microsoft's software subscription model, but even more restrictive. Microsoft Backed off [slashdot.org] their plan, and so will these music services.
--CTH
--
Re:In a closed format only? (Score:1)
Re:How about this? (Score:1)
Well then please do kill yourself, like it or not you have a choice in the matter. No it's not easy or even convenient but having a spine seldom is.
Before you pull the trigger though consider this. Who says we gotta let the record companies do this? A well written client program connecting to a reasonably secure database and distributed to the artists might do the trick. Does that calm your paranoid delusions?
Ok....fire away....Re:How about this? (Score:1)
Re:How about this? (Score:1)
How about this? (Score:2)
I'd do something like this under 2 conditions
The bulk of the profits go directly to the artists
I could order (for the cost of the cd) the songs I've already downloaded and paid for.
They can bite me if they think I'm gonna "rent" a song.
Re:Only Way to Defeat the Blood Suckers... (Score:2)
broken encryption (Score:1)
(Well it might be possible if the encryption/compression is lossy in some way... I dunno... I don't know the science of the technology very well myself.)
Re:Wow!!! (Score:1)
But, to make a troll, you need Gene Roddenberry himself....
"...Fear the people who fear your computer"
Re:How about this? (Score:1)
Control (Score:1)
"The record labels like this format, since they can keep track of where and when the music is played."
This scares me. When I read this, almost jumping back in my chair, I pictured a controlling and abusive husband wanting to know everything about his poor, little wife. This is unhealthy and destructive behavoir, in any medium. They need to get a clue that consumers aren't here to control, we're customers and are the sole reason people like them make any money at all.
"In essence, consumers wouldn't buy music, just rent it."
This violates the Betamax case which states consumers have the right to do personally whatever they want with any content (e.g. copy it to tapes for personal viewing, etc.). You don't rent music like you can rent a house. Pretty soon all ownership will be in the hands of giant companies, and the consumer will own nothing. We can already rent our house, our car, furniture, computer, TV, software, cable or satellite service, why not music? Why don't we just start paying monthly fees to eat at McDonald's?
"Is this going to end up as some sort of monopoly control, where the companies you own and partner with will be the only ones who can do this?"
I think so. Napster obviosully can't do it, even if they pay the Artists.
Well, that's it. We might as well give ourselves to Corporate America. We should each pay to rent our lives, we should pay for our air. One way or another it isn't going to be free, but what is? Who today isn't looking to make a buck off of anything people will buy? This is truly a sad state of affairs.
Re:heh (Score:1)
Re:there's no privacy right here (Score:1)
Re:so pirate everything? (Score:1)
"If you can listen to it, you can record it." (Score:2)
This seems to be the common wisdom here. Think the RIAA/MPAA will finally take notice of this lesson now that it's been attached to a major PR problem? We can only hope.
Disclaimer: The quotes might be slightly off. I'm not perfect.
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:2)
Yes, the crypto's all going to be broken. And fast. But we've never had a DMCA before, and that makes things a little bit different. The music industry now has unprecedented rights to control the medium of distribution, which makes it easier for them to invoke "piracy" in order to maximize their revenues. First sale and fair use are going to become pay-per priveleges if they get their way.
CSS is not clever encryption, but it gives the MPAA the right to do things they've never been able to do (region-coding, etc.) Yes, it's been broken, but if the anti-circumvention provisions are upheld, we won't be seeing commercial unrestricted DVD players anytime soon. And that's what this whole war is about.
Re:Will vs. Logic. (Score:2)
Unfortunately you're very very wrong. The DMCA law (US) was based on an international copyright treaty (the World Copyright Treaty) that has already been ratified by the EU and a handful of other nations. And more are on the way. Check some of the provisions [loc.gov] (PDF, sorry) coming soon to an industrialized nation near you. Further developments such as the FTAA will certainly bring these IP protections to other countries that currently ignore them.
You are of course correct that a large percentage of the world's population doesn't have such laws. BUT a) the countries that are affected are the richest in the world, and therefore the most significant for the content-production industry. And b) they're us: I could care less if Chinese have the right to watch movies as they please, if I (and neighboring countries, for that matter) don't.
There are plenty of REGION-FREE DVD players on the market, available NOW
Those that exist are expensive, or not available for import to this country. The CSS folks still have control of the license. If you produce a region-free commercial DVD player for sale in the US (or other nations where and when applicable laws are in place), you'd better have a CSS license or you will be sued. Having a CSS license means you agree to a long list of conditions which the CSS folks will enforce upon you.
In any case, region coding is not the end-all example of player control. The movie studios aren't going to foam at the mouth if a few people are using such players. If everyone began using them, they'd probably have something to say about it, and the DMCA would give them the right to go after unlicensed CSS-enabled player manufacturers.
CSS is just a first step, a sort of trial balloon. It doesn't really prevent copying as we all know. It's purpose right now seems largely to test the laws in the courts. If they stand up, we will be seeing much more aggressive use of "encryption" used to permit legal shenanigans.
So, as long as the yankees will be stupid, they will have the DCMCA, and region-locked DVD players.
Hell yes. We are stupid. I only wish the rest of the democratic world were showing signs of brain life. Unfortunately, it looks like they're as bad as us.
Re:Two BIG problem with this strategy (Score:2)
The irony is that it hasn't gone *poof*, it's gone *whoosh*. Both the RIAA and MPAA have the tiny problem that their members' revenues have gone up in the past few years. When they talk about "losing money" to content sharing, they actually mean "failing to make even more money".
The ball's in their court. When there's a one click solution that lets me credit the artist (not the hard-copy distributor) small amounts per track (not per play, or time limited), I'll happily use it.
Re:The purpose of musicnet and duet (Score:2)
Bang on. Here's the sequence of events as I see it:
Your move, Gubmint.
This is no victory (Score:4)
As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, content protection is inevitable. You know why I think that? Because every time there is an Anime' story posted here, it's usually only available on DVD and everybody here seems to have seen it. Now if the DVD CCA and its heathen spawn CSS are so evil, how come all of you have one of these things? The only way to make a statement to the RIAA and the MPAA is to vote with your pocketbook, and Slashdot has got more hanging chads than Florida.
And when content protected HDTV hits the market, how many of you are going to "just say no" then? From what I've seen here, probably far too few to even make the needle twitch on the copyright robber baron's give-a-shit meter.
I'm not trolling for flames, just stating what I see as obvious. If you want this copyright idiocy to go away, then large numbers of people have to revolt in the only way that's understood by content producers. If they lose money on this, it will die, but right now any sane person would place all his bets in the content provider's corner.
By the way, I don't own any DVD-related product. Well, except maybe for my DeCSS T-shirt.
The purpose of musicnet and duet (Score:3)
My friends, you are missing the point
The big five are not interested in online distribution, and will do everything they can to impede it's process. You've seen this for years. The lawsuits against mp3.com, the locking out of online music companies that had a desire to produce for pay music service working with the labels.
The labels have a very specific agenda. Preserve their very high margin compact disc sales at an ASP of $12-$15. As the digital music revolution has unfolded, the labels knew all along that steadfast refusal to do anything was causing problems. So they invested in companies they didn't want to succeed, and produced trial products that were intentionally poor user experiences. They have intentionally allowed the SDMI spec, once heralded as the way the big five would play online, to wither and die with little direction.
This is not incompetance. Say what you will about rhe big five but you don't become billion dollar companies without the abilility to execute on a plan. While perfection may not have been possible, certainly something was... to date they have allowed years of delays in delivering a reasonable spec... all the while leading partners on by the nose, confusing them and keeping them from working on competing solutions.
Fast forward to 2001, you have Hatch on the hill talking about compulsory licenses for on demand systems. Hatch and other know very well there are at least a half a dozen such solutions complete and backed by well funded partners. The only thing all of these lack are the licenses, which they aren't getting come hell or high water. It was said on the hill, in essence, either you do it or we'll let them do it for you.
So the answer? Launch a pair of mediocre services that don't cross-license and essentially produce a failure. Throw in a couple of launch delays, a relauch, and at least a year to declare them total failures. Tah-dah they've just bought themselves at least two more years of unconteseted cd sales.
And that, brothers, is the cold hard truth.
A service I woud pay for (Score:2)
Now, for what would bring me back to paying for music. I would pay for a non-subscription, pay as you go service, of the following description. It would have most of the published music available. You check the tracks you want, and they send you by snail mail, one or several compilated CD's with those tracks. You can choose an image to go printed on the CD, if you want a booklet with the lyrics, biographies... you name it. No protection of the tracks, of course, just a regular CD. The tracks should have their volume and dynamic range normalised (as far as possible, of course, if you try to mix classical music and AC-DC, you are in for it).
I reckon some kind of automatic process could take care of mostly everything. The new releases would have a waiting time before being available in this service, like for the video version of a film, only probably longer. The price? About half a dollar for track, plus post, packaging. Total price of a ten-track CD at home, less than $10. No box, of course, only a hard envelope.
The web site would be a gigantic central point for music, with lots of user comments, forums, cross-references (if you liked that, you would probably like to check...), and so on. Probably would be one of the most visited sites on Earth, for buying, but mostly for hanging around.
That I would pay for, and gladly. I do not know if I check with the profile of many others, but I know that those half-baked, half-hearted attemps to a paying service leave me cold. I'm just not buying it. I will refuse them my attention till they start doing something interesting. I suppose they don't care, they are busy with other kinds of users. But I don't care either, I'm busy burning my own CD's.
Re:read my lips (Score:1)
Hmm, I watched your lips and they looked exactly the same both times.
Maybe I'm missing something but... (Score:2)
1001101110100101101011010101010101010101...
Just a bunch of one's and zeros. Now the RIAA (and MetallicA) says they "own" that particular sequence of digits on a CD. OK, fine, now take and MP3 of the same song:
1110110101010101111110100101101010111111...
Now the RIAA says they "own" this sequence of digits and you cannot copy it and give it to someone. let's say I invert the digits:
0001001010101010000001011010010101000000...
Persumably the RIAA is going to says they "own" this sequence of digits too. Since I can conceivable write a program to turn any string of digits into an infinite number of different strings of digits and back, the RIAA is going to claim that they own all different strings that can conceivablly be somehow turned into that original string? With that logic the RIAA could claim the scanned image of my girlfriend is an illegal copy of MetallicA's Fade to Black. (given the right "decrypting" program)
What does this mean? Napster isn't illegal. The people using it may be doing illegal things, but even that is a bit suspect. At the basic level Person A is sending Person B a string of ones and zeros. Might be music, might be my girlfriend's picture, might be BOTH! Oddly enough this sounds like another similar arguement:
"Guns don't kill people, people do"
The root of the problem is the RIAA is trying to shoe-horn a 100 year old law into a new age of technology. The whole concept of copyright and IP is flawed. It just doesn't work anymore.
As a final example, I'll use my own industry as an example of what works. I write software. I am fully aware that if my software got into the handds of some unscrupulous person, it's sequence of bits could be changed, while preserving the basic function of the code to the point that any court would rule that the new seqments of code are different and thus not violating my copyright.
As an example:
for (int i=1;i10;i++) x += i;
is the same as:
x += 10*i
While my software is copyrighted, I do not rely on that to protect my code from others, what I do rely on is my secure server where my code runs, properly encrypted so that those unscrupulous people cannot access it.
Not to light a flame, but SDMI was "the right way" to go about the problem the RIAA has. Unfortunately, the current CD format cannot properly protect the artists data. One option would be to change the format. An econmically bad idea. I don't have the answer to the RIAA's problem (that of illegal use of their "property") but I know the problem is not Napster, it's Napster's users.
--
He had come like a thief in the night,
Re:heads up... (Score:1)
nobody
parturiunt montes, nascetur ridiculus mus
Just wondering... why do so many "strict constructionist" constitutional commentators on /. have sigs written in latin? Seems like a trend.
Actually, I'm not certain it's latin, as I'm not a linguist. I certainly have no idea what it means. Looks cool, though.
Re:heads up... (Score:1)
Amendment IV:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
We won the rights...and once won, they're worth fighting for.
I appreciate the response, and I stand by my statement. Peace.
Re:there's no privacy right here (Score:1)
I'll admit that it's an interpretation of the Constitiution, but it's a document meant to be interpreted, as the authors can't have forseen the communication age and the speed at which information moves. I agree with you on that point, and it was well made (i.e. long range directional mics and satellite photography).
However, I think they had a pretty good idea of what a powerful government could do without equally powerful rights of the people. I think it's been a good system, and that it has held...but only with support and proactive involvement by all parties, including the citizens.
Vigilance is the key word. What's next? Ben and Jerry monitoring whether or not I enjoy Rainforest Crunch over Cherry Garcia, under the auspices of "Marketing"?
I'm not asking anybody to pick up the sword here...just to realize that small steps eventually turn into miles.
I enjoyed the comment, and I enjoy the debate. Peace.
Re:heads up... (Score:2)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Sorry if the italics offended you...but it's my right. Free speech is not to be taken lightly, nor is it to be scoffed at.
Re:Rights blah blah blah (Score:2)
Abraham Lincoln: "No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent."
Moore's law is relative to the computer chip industry, while Lincoln's statement speaks about huumanity.
I ain't no chip.
heads up... (Score:4)
Folks, that raises the hairs on my neck. I pretty much don't want anyone tracking my preferences for music, film, art, literature, or whether or not I have an innie or an outie.
As an American, I have inalienable rights under the constitution to protect my privacy.
This ain't cool and this dog won't hunt.
when is vorbis coming up ? (Score:2)
Goodwill (Score:5)
Initially when this whole filesharing stuff started, I was of the opinion that I would listen to new songs and buy them if I like them. For quite a while that seemed very plausible.
However, when the RIAA/MPAA started with their nasties, more and more of this plausability turned into a 'no... these people have no relation with 'art' anymore.' If anything has been established by their actions, it is that they have shown their true face, and so have a whole bunch of so called 'artists'.
Art... to me is an expression of one's inner emotions. It shows just how great people can be when they are in the right frame of mind and talented enough to display their art to the public. But Metallica, MPAA, RIAA, and then some, are like a big stinking oozing sewer leaking poisonous chemicals into a sparkling mountain creek. While I used to like Metallica, now when I hear their music, all I think is 'oh it's those assholes'. While the existance of the RIAA was safely hidden from me before this all started, now every CD branded with their logo is tainted.
So no, I will not use their 'service'. Just like I would not buy Nazi memorabilia.
SDMI Tricks Artists (Score:1)