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Lord of Light 100
Lord of Light | |
author | Roger Zelazny |
pages | 261 |
publisher | Methuen |
rating | 10 |
reviewer | Danny Yee |
ISBN | 0-413-58250-7 |
summary | epic science fiction using Hindu and Buddhist themes |
Colonists from Earth, using a mix of mental powers and high technology, have long ago subjugated the native inhabitants -- and are now making themselves into gods, ruling over their descendants within a framework set up in imitation of Hinduism and ancient India. But even as the "Deicrat" consensus firms, there is dissent: Sam, one of the First, the crew of the original spaceship, remains an "Accelerationist," wanting to spread scientific knowledge to everyone. He starts a one-man crusade to bring down Heaven, a crusade that will lead him to the depths of Hellwell and to Nirvana and back.
Lord of Light is a lively novel with plenty of action -- duels, battles, confrontations, defiances, and repartee. Following the structure of Indian epics, elaborated sub-stories adorn a simple overall plot, with each chapter an episode in Sam's war against Heaven: his taking up arms against Heaven, his revival of Buddhism and the attempts to kill him, his loosing of the demons and possession by one of them, his capture and imprisonment in the Celestial City, his escape and defeat in a climactic battle, his return from Nirvana, and his final victory. (The first chapter is chronologically the second-last, which is a little confusing at first.) While few of the characters have much depth, they manage to be both human and (when they take on their Aspects and wield their Attributes) embodiments of fundamental forces. Sam himself is a crotchety old-timer and a con-man and a trickster - but also an embodiment of military prowess and defiance against odds.
The scientific scaffolding always remains visible -- Shiva's trident is a device, "reincarnation" is done through body farms and mind transfer machinery, the Christian heretic Nirriti uses guided missiles -- and Lord of Light is clearly science fiction rather than fantasy. This is affirmed explicitly within the story by Yama, engineer and god of Death, explaining that demons are "malefic, possessed of great powers, life span, and the ability to temporarily assume virtually any shape" - but not "supernatural".
Which is a sentiment to warm the hearts of hard science fiction devotees, even without the "technology good, theocracy bad" plot elements."It is the difference between the unknown and the unknowable, between science and fantasy - it is a matter of essence. The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the unknown. Some do bow in that final direction. Others advance upon it. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. I may submit to the unknown, but never to the unknowable. The man who bows in that final direction is either a saint or a fool. I have no use for either."
Despite the underlying epistemology, however, the dominant "mode" of Lord of Light is mythic rather than scientific. Zelazny does more than raid Hinduism and Buddhism for props - he ends up touching on the genuinely numinous, evoking through language and mood something of the power of real religion and myth. Buddhism, for example, is introduced by Sam as a counter to Hinduism, but his own beliefs are ambiguous and when one of his disciples (originally an assassin sent to kill him) attains enlightenment, it is obvious that Buddhism has taken on a life of its own. Lord of Light sports quotations from Indian scriptures at the beginning of each chapter and uses themes and language and ideas taken from them throughout. At one point Sam delivers a three page sermon, for example, and the penultimate paragraph of the novel is
This could easily have been tedious or trite but in Zelazny's hands it actually works. Myth and religion never actually break free from the scientific scaffolding, but they manage to make it irrelevant -- one could almost consider Lord of Light a demonstration that their symbolic power does not rest on their metaphysical claims."Death and Light are everywhere, always, and they begin, end, strive, attend, into and upon the Dream of the Nameless that is the world, burning words within Samsara, perhaps to create a thing of beauty."
Despite its serious approach to religion and its success as epic, Lord of Light is at the same time rather light-hearted, sometimes verging on the flippant.
Zelazny also includes a few truly terrible puns."It was early morning. Near the pool of the purple lotus, in the Garden of Joys, at the foot of the statue of the blue goddess with theveena, Brahma was located.The girl who found him first thought him to be resting, for his eyes were still open. After a moment, though, she realized that he was not breathing; and his face, so contorted, underwent no changes of expression.
She trembled as she awaited the end of the universe. God being dead, she understood that this normally followed. But after a time she decided that the internal cohesiveness of things might serve to hold the universe together for another hour or so; and such being the case, she thought it advisable to bring the matter of the imminent Yuga to the attention of someone better suited to cope with it."
Somehow all the disparate components of Lord of Light -- humour and epic, science and religion, action and philosophy -- come together in an successful novel. The result is my favourite Zelazny work and indeed one of my favourite science fiction novels of all time. Though it won the Hugo award in 1968, it has I think been relatively neglected; it can bear comparison with the much better known Dune (and I suspect Zelazny was inspired by Frank Herbert's use of Sufism in that work).
Purchase this book from FatBrain. Check out Danny Yee's other book reviews, especially the science fiction and India sections.
Re:hmmm.... (Score:2)
Religion nit. Buddhism predates Christianity by centuries, although some of the earliest stuff in the Bible is about the same age. Many of the sects Westerners are familiar with like Zen[1] are quite recent, but the religion itself is very old.
The Qu'ran has a better chance of "outinfluencing" the Bible over the long haul: Islam is growing much faster than Buddhism.
[1] Although Zen, Nichiren, Tibetan and other well known sects are so far removed from Theravada tradition that calling them "Buddhism" is stretching it.
Eric
Re:Zelazny ... (Score:2)
Exactly, Jack of Shadows is a better work (Score:4)
While Lord of Light was a refreshing retelling of many Indian themes, and a masterwork of its time, it probably affected far fewer people than Jack of Shadows did.
Jack of Shadows gave a lot of young people a path that they could really follow, one connected more closely with the change in Western society from mythic fantasy and our belief in supernatural beings to the scientific, rules-based approach. Due to its influence, many of the gaming engines of both RPG and Computer games were created, and I've noticed most authors who came to prominence in the decade following invariably listed it amongst their favorite works.
It may have been juvenile in its characterization, never one of Zelazny's strong parts, but it was earth shattering in its impact on a number of writers, similar to the influence of the new breed that Moorcock belonged to.
However, in recent years we've seen a number of Western authors get in tune with Veddic writings and their own personal search for meaning has led them to rediscover Lord of Light. It's more of a reflection of their changing religious beliefs than the strength of the actual work, and thus a modern redefinition says that Lord of Light was the masterwork, when in actual impact any serious author of the time would have claimed Jack of Shadows as the true masterwork.
Read this too (Score:1)
If you liked Zelazny, you might like . . . (Score:2)
If you're also into roleplaying, the game Nobilis [rpg.net] might also interest you. It's hard to describe it in one sentence (which is why I linked to a review, instead), but it cites Zelazny, and particularly Lord of Light, as one of its influences. It's out of print and hard to find just at the moment, but an expanded second edition is coming out soon. It's a very sweet-looking game.
And as always, Alexlit [alexlit.com]'s collaborative filtering recommendation system can look at the books you like and love, and suggest more you might enjoy.
--
What about Coils? or Damnation Alley? (Score:1)
I suggest you read Coils (co-wrote by Fred Saberhagen) and then all of the Amber series.
Vertical
'Lord of Light' worth Memorizing (Score:1)
I read this novel at a tender age of 14 and always return to it when I need 'psychic renewal'. We even covered this book in a high school sci fi lit class.
My favorite line is "The dawn emerged pink, like the newly bitten thigh of a young maiden".
Well. . . yes and no (Score:4)
RZ does a masterful job of messing with the readers head through much of the book, leaving one with a sense of satisfaction realization.
This is the key, powerful subtlety of the work, and the mark of the true master story teller. You see, during much of the book the reader is ignorant and RZ gradualy opens their eyes and brings them to " Enlightenment." The readers own thought processes mirror the theme of the book. It's simply marvalous.
I'm afraid that those who read your review before reading the book will be denied that experience, and it is that experience that makes this work not just one of the great works of SF, but one of the great works of literature.
KFG
Joseph Campbell (Score:2)
Re:Quite simply the best... (Score:1)
Like so many of Zelazny's protagonists (Conrad from This Immortal and Sandow from Isle of the Dead being just two examples), Sam is very, very old at the time of the story, hinting that he may have been around long enough to actually know who Seeger was. No doubt Sam is to a certain extent Zelazny himself, projected into the future...as a vehicle for commenting on the present.
One of those books you can talk about all night long. :)
Re:Lord of Light as CIA ruse? (Score:1)
Re:One of Zelazny's best (Score:2)
Re:Doorways In The Sand (Score:2)
When I first read it, in high school, I didn't like it! But it has improved with each re-reading, so I think the problem was with me and not with the book.
steveha
Re:Lord of Light (Score:2)
Re:Zelazny ... (Score:2)
In that he wrote:
1. the spikard rings are as ancient as pattern and lorgus
2. the spikard rings are sentient
3. Corwin's blade (grayswild) and Brand's blade (forgot the sword's name, was a while ago), is forged from a spikard ring
4. there is a mirror world (mirros are all interconnected)
5. there is a new powerfull magician who is using mirror world and tries to offset the balance (seems to go after Merlin the most)
6. Dworkin and Suhoy (pattern and lorgus) are preparing for some another grand battle, and real Corwin will be tied into this
There was not much mention of either Ghostwheel nor new Corwin's pattern in those 5 short stories.
You can find the shorts floating online actually 3 or 4 of the short stories actually follow directly after the last Amber book (one or two are positioned between books of the second saga).
too bad we will never know where all this leads to... When I found out about the short stories I said to myself ' great, mysteries will be resolved', but after reading them I was just angry that I ended up with more puzzles waiting to be solved.
ps: sorry for previous post, I hate html default formatting... and I hate having account..
Re:Exactly, Jack of Shadows is a better work (Score:2)
Re:Joseph Campbell (Score:2)
Even worse: Jan Vincent and George Peppard! (Score:1)
Re:hmmm.... (Score:1)
ethical delimmas (speilberg/kubrik) (Score:1)
To get more to my point though... when i would read his earlier work, I would be drawn to these fantastic ethical delimmas he would come up with, which would make the book stay in your mind. I was never really impressed with alot of his imagery and writing style until his later works, he just reminds me a LOT of speilberg sometimes, knowing just how to tap you for an emotional response, while zelazny would remind of kubrik (much more analytical, and making you work for your supper right from the start).
amber chronicles (Score:1)
I always felt badly, because I have some friends who really enjoy them... but i could never get into the Amber Chronicles. I liked some of the images he would pop into my head, but it always seemed so... hokey?
Yes, I know they're old... and he often has a lot of "hokey" stuff in his books, stuff that just feels a little "off". But I just finished reading his last book, that he co-authored with someone else, "DonnerJack" and for some reason the hokey images worked (the mastadon sucking on power ups he picked from trees while riding on a giant copper war locomotive) and stuck in my head... the amber chronicles never did that for me.
I always felt guilty reading them, like if someone came up and laughed that i was reading a SCI-FI book, i wouldnt be able to explain why it was a valuable piece of work (like donnerjack, or lord of light).
Re:hmmm.... (Score:1)
I really agree with this- I read somewhere that "fantasy is easy, because you can make the rules up as you go along. If you need the character to be able to wield fire, make up a ring that does that, etc... but science fiction is so much harder because you have to be able to explain why the hell your character can wield fire."
All the sci fi I've read (probably not as much as 50% of the people here, but quite alot) that seemed dated was when the tech was the story (although it can still be a great read).
When i've read things like "the final encyclopedia" I could tell that parts might seem dated, but at the whole it is just a damn good story, with rich protagonists and the tech was used as a device to put them into situations for great story telling about character that would be difficult to do in a normal setting.
Ie, "the lord of the light" deals with issues of humanity, greed, power, hubris, and the sci fi aspect is there to just let that story happen, not take it over. The same with Dune.
Re:hmmm.... (Score:2)
Genre counts. Science fiction, among other things, deals with futurism. And futurism is probably the worst-aging element imaginable. (That, not just in fiction but anywhere.) So for a science fiction work to hold up even 1/3 century is pretty amazing.
That said, Lord of Light can be taken as an exemplar of the sort of scifi that can hold up for a long time. The key is to avoid futurism; rather, take the Asimovian truism to heart, and turn all your tech into magic, and simply remove any tech that may prove troublesome to predict. LoL's contemporary Dune is a great example. There are no serious machines to speak of because of a jihad (how handy!).
Most of the scifi of the sixties and seventies, though, today strikes a reader as rather strange due to the lack of computers. The real future has a terrible way of being unpredictable.
One of Roger Zelaznys greatest works. (Score:2)
Not only is this a great science book it manages to be religious deep without sounding pretentious or overblown. Mahasamatman (sam) is a pacifist and bhuddist in a culture that is primarily fire and brimstone hinduist. He attempts to change the way the word works, spiritually as well as politically by assuming the role of the budda. Along the way he attracts many people who seem to him to be a lot more suited to the role of the budda, and eventually lives up to his own creation.
This story is truly epic, it spans thousands of years and is a fast and lively read. I would recommend it to everyoneone.
But on to the original reason for my post. If you have not read Zelazny before you should also read some of his other works. Most notibly the Amber series. If you can find 'The Great book of Amber' (a compilation of 10 of his books) you will be very lucky. I beleive that this is the best dimension-hopping sci-fi book ever created. Zelazny is a master of creating new and realistic worlds. And unlike some authors, like niven who I love but can recognize faults in, he can write excellent emotional characterizations as well.
Amber is a series about a family of immortals who have the ability to move from dimension to dimension and modify reality around themselves. But mostly its about the tyranical machinations of the heroes immortal brothers who attempt to take over their homeland after their father disappears and eventually the entire universe. Just read it.
Regards,
R. George Davison
Quite simply the best... (Score:3)
My favourite quote : "So that's what they're playing on their fascist banjo's these days..."
after Yama lectures Sam on the "true" meaning of being a god to the populace
I wish the reviewer hadn't given away the fact that none of the "gods" are real, and that" Niriti the black" was the ships chaplain
I spent the first third of the book wondering what the hell was going on, then immediately had to re-read it once I'd finished it (after going "oh... that's what it all meant").
A *perfect* book !
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
Lonesome October (Score:1)
It takes place in and around London in the late 1800s, and is narrated by Snuff, a huge sheepdog.
Snuff's master is Jack, who has a way with knives.
There is also the Count, who sleeps by day, the mad monk Rastov, the Great Detective and his assistant, a witch, a vicar, a druid, and a couple others. All will take part in the Game...
This work I think best shows Zelazny's excellent and warped sense of humor.
--Stafford
Doorways In The Sand (Score:1)
"Creatures of Light and Darkness" is a really experimental work, where almost every chapter is told in a different style, from prose to poetry to screenplay. And, like I said, it mostly works.
But my favorite little gem of his is "Doorways in the Sand". Every single chapter begins in medias res, in the middle of the action, and the rest of the chapter is devoted to explaining how our protagonist got into this situation and how he works to get out of it.
Read it, if for no other reason than the first chapter, which is one of the funniest openings of any book, ever.
Re:Orson Scott Card (Score:2)
Re:hmmm.... (Score:2)
I agree with the parent posters premise. Being released in '68 hardly makes LOL an ancient tome whose "modern" relevance is surprising, because the *bible* itself is only somewhat middle aged in the pantheon of the written word.
KFG
Zelazny, the only Cool Guy (Score:1)
Think about it: Which other author could pull thhe following off (not correctly quited, I dont have the books with me) without sounding ridiculous?
"I shall not rest, until I have smitten thee!"
"Hey, whats your bitch!?"
Jack of Shadows (Score:3)
In Jack of Shadows the opposite is the case. On the surface the fictional world is purely fantasy, but the plot itself is scientific: the main character is concerned (among other things) with finding out the rules that his world obeys, to use them to gain power. In this sense it is truer to science fiction than Lord of Light is.
It is also a very good read.
Re:hmmm.... (Score:1)
If nothing else I get to reread the book a couple of times, hardly a punishment.
KFG
Read more Zelazny (Score:1)
Lord of Light is one of his best novels, in my opinion. Many would say the Amber books were the pinnacle, and in the beginning they were, but I thought they became to formulaic later, epecially the Merlin series.
Here is a fantastic bibliography of Zelazny work:
http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/exact_author.cgi?
I heartily recommend his short stories. Zelazny can develop a marvelous character and setting in just a couple of paragraphs, making his short stories quick, delicious and to the point.
I had the opportunity a number of years ago, to meet Zelazny while I was in Albuquerque, and I always regret not doing so at the time. Now that the supply of Zelazny has been cut off, I must spend my time hunting for that last elusive work that I haven't yet read, and obtaining it.
A short list of my recommendations:
Now, if some Amberite can just tell who exactly Corwin's "Carmen" was, I'd be thrilled...
Re:I think the review is a bit out.... (Score:1)
I think he got it right, but did a rather poor job of conveying his thought. It happens.
KFG
Re:hmmm.... (Score:1)
Sorry, dude, but that's Clarke, not Asimov. The full text (I believe it's Clarke's Third Law) is "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".
My favorite by Zelazny (Score:3)
Personally, I call it "science fantasy". There is a lot of magical stuff going on, but a handwaving explanation of machines and psi powers doesn't really convince me to consider it hard science fiction. This isn't a problem, of course, and in fact is a large part of why the book aged gracefully. Describing in detail how the tech works is usually a recipe for looking quaint later. (Remember the Heinlein novel that described the "computer" that used elaborate 3-dimensional cams inside its mechanical guts? One of the characters was wishing he could put in some 4-dimensional cams to make it more powerful... overclocking, kinda sorta.)
The book would have been awesome if it had just been a straightforward telling of that incredibly brilliant plot. But Zelazny had his own style of writing, and his use of language puts the frosting on top. Where other writers use words as bricks and mortar, to build the story, Zelazny also plays around artistically with the words themselves. At times this leads to pages that are poetically beautiful, at other times this means bad puns and outrageous dialog. In this book, the playing with words is not done too little or too much; it works.
A must-read.
steveha
Re:Joseph Campbell (Score:2)
Re:Crew and colonists (Score:2)
Speciesist. The Rakshasa, demons, "the Glow", and other energy beings were the native inhabitants of the planet. Physical body or no, they had feelings too, you know! The human colonists either destroyed them, imprisoned them, or drove them into hiding. That sounds pretty subjugated to me.
The ordinary human inhabitants of the planet are referred to more than once as the descendents of the original colonists, whether or not they were the crew. We actually meet only two characters positively identified as crew members: the captain Jan Olvegg, and the chaplain Nirriti. The rest of the gods and "First" are simply those who arrived on the ship Star of India, whether crew or not, or their near descendents. Their descendents at greater remove were relegated to a more primitive existence outside the Celestial City, to which they can aspire by building up enough "karma." Cold storage is never mentioned.
Not that I've reread it recently or anything....
Re:Spoilers in the review... (Score:1)
Re:Doorways In The Sand (Score:1)
Mysterious first chapter... (Score:2)
That said, I have one quibble with the review:
Colonists from Earth, using a mix of mental powers and high technology, have long ago subjugated the native inhabitants -- and are now making themselves into gods, ruling over their descendants within a framework set up in imitation of Hinduism and ancient India.
I interpreted things a little differently. WARNING: YET ANOTHER PLOT SPOILER COMING
The colony ship carried a very technically competent crew of mostly American or NW European extraction (the chaplain was Christian with an anglo-saxon name, Captain Jan Olvegg was maybe Dutch, and Sam Kalkin certainly seems American), and a large cargo of Hindu Indians with apparently no technical knowledge at all. (This is the one way in which the book has aged -- while India still has plenty of ignorant farmers, they've got very good engineers and coders too and I can't imagine any Indian government loading up the most ignorant of their people on a ship crewed by foreigners.) The destination world turned out not to be completely uninhabited, although a survey from space wouldn't have spotted the inhabitants (beings of pure energy and sea-dwellers), and the crew had to lead in many wars to make the world safe for humans. In the process, they forgot to educate the farmers, or even many of their own children, and the new world settled into the old pattern of peasants, princes, warriors, and Brahmans. There was one big piece of technology made available early and to all who could afford the fees: "re-incarnation" through copying your mind into a tank-grown body. (If you want to populate a world fast, immortality helps. And this particular technology fits right into the Hindu religion -- although having your next life depend on cash rather than how well you've acted doesn't fit, Christians accept much bigger discrepancies.)
The original crew meanwhile had not only kept their grip on technology, but been reincarnated so many times that their particular talents grew into god-like powers. They lived off by themselves in particularly favored real estate ("heaven" -- maybe like Boulder Colorado?), and argued about how to re-introduce the rest of the world to technology without gross disruptions. Of course, the longer they sat and argued, the larger the gap became -- but it did maintain their privileged condition. Sam Kalkin eventually became disgusted with that and set himself up as Prince Siddhartha in some remote area. The story actually begins (chapter 2?) with Sam coming into a town for a new body after a long absence and discovering that things have changed very much -- the First (and some favored descendants) are now officially gods, the body merchants are "the Lords of Karma", and you get karma by feeding coins into "prayer machines" which are slot machines with no payout. Obviously Accelerationism lost, and Accelerationists have the choice of persuading the "gods" to let them into the club, or being reincarnated as dogs, epileptics, or whatever. So Sam insults "Brahma", has his troops overrun the Temple of Karma, gets his new body (and one for Captain Jan Olvegg also), and hauls away some critical machinery. Only after thus using violence to provide for his own present and future reincarnation does he then become the apostle of a non-violent religion. 8-)
Re:Quite simply the best... (Score:2)
Inscribed on the head is the phrase:
"This machine surrounds hate and forces it to surrender."
As for your point about the review being a spoiler Danny has been taken to task over that elsewhere in the thread, and partially defended himself. You can see my post to him, but at the risk of being redundant I agree with you fully. The reader is intentionally left "ingnorant" and thus full of "illusion" about just what is going on in the story and Zalazny masterfully leads the reader to an "enlightenment experience." This enlightment experience is key to properly enjoying the book and, and is what elevates it from meerly a masterful piece of story telling into a masterful piece of literature.
KFG
Re:Quite simply the best... (Score:2)
Zalazny was quite familiar with Guthrie and Seeger and not a bad folk performer himself, which is what leads me to believe the quote in question was indeed a reference.
I'm friends of friends of all three and have heard the odd story or two, not to mention the fact that all three have given us an extensive body of written work.
KFG
Got to find my copy now (Score:1)
It's like an onion with layer after layer; every reading reveals a little more. In fact, I'm going to have to look for that thing now and give it another read.
But, please, no Phil Dick. After half a dozen readings, I never did figure out The Three Stigmata of Palmer Aldritch. And I refuse to drop acid to get it to make sense!
Re:Lord of Light as CIA ruse? (Score:1)
Was Zelazny mentioned in this context?
Re:Reading this book gets you hit on (Score:2)
Excellent! All we need now is Phil Dick (Score:4)
I read Lord of Light when I was 16, and I went out and bought everything else I could of his, especially the Courts of Chaos series. By coincidence I rered Dilvish The Damned the other week, it is still as good as I remembered it.
Zelazny had (he died a couple of years ago as I recall) a unique tone to his work; he wasn't afraid to stitch in some poetic stuff amongst the swords and wizardry. Again like Vance he had an eye for sketching credible women in his stories.
Pleasant to see him mentioned here where he might posthumously gain new readers!
One of Zelazny's best (Score:2)
Orson Scott Card (Score:1)
Sounds like a good book. (Score:1)
blah (Score:2)
Hi.
I began my notorious career in trolling because I thought it would be fun to get reactions out of the regular Slashdot readers. To doing so I've posted trick links to corpses, written paranoid, homoerotic articles on members of the Open Source community, and in general made a pest out of myself by violating others' good taste and personal value.
Probably the most immediately disturbing of my habits, as I noted above, is posting articles that detail a false gay homosexual past for members of the software community, such as ESR, Rob Malda, Alan Cox, RMS, and others. Usually in these stories I create, the main character is a desperate homosexual who commits acts of sodomy left and right, without remorse for his actions. I make people who truly care seem like vice-ridden, unconsciousable monsters!
This stuff just is not funny; in fact, my own son stumbled across my comments one day and has been leary of me ever since and won't call or visit. I'll never forgive myself for the chasm between us.
I now realize how disgusting and even damaging unintentionally looking at a gutted human corpse or reading graphic descriptions about anal sex with men can be.
It is my sincere hope that CmdrTaco, the other Slashdot staff, and you, the reader, can find it in your conscience to forgive me for the awful things I have done to the Slashdot community.
Thank you.
Zelazny ... (Score:2)
If you've never read the amber series, and you need something to do this summer, there is a "Complete collection" that can be had fairly cheaply. It will keep you engrossed and interested for a very long time
other Zelazny wih mythological content (Score:2)
I recently re-read Lord of Light for what must have been the fourth or fifth time. I also re-read his books Creatures of Light and Darkness, which features characters who take on the roles of Egyptian deities, and Isle of the Dead, wherein a human become a sort of avatar of an alien god. If you enjoyed any of these, check out the others too.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Re:hmmm.... (Score:1)
I've read it twice, a few years ago now. The second time I read it, it wasn't quite how I remembered it. One friend told me that Z rewote the second edition to better match the more recent research into the original myths. Anybody know any more?
Measure Twice.
Spoilers in the review... (Score:2)
Try coils by Zelanzny (Score:2)
Re:Me Too! (Score:1)
One of my favorites (as should be obvious from my nom de Slashdot) is Creatures of Light and Darkness, which is fairly weird but has awesome imagery.
TSG
Re:Try coils by Zelanzny (Score:1)
Coils was co-written with Fred Saberhagen. It's a good 'un.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | http://www.infamous.net/
Crew and colonists (Score:1)
As I remember it (and I admit it's been a decade and a half since I read it), there are no native inhabitants on the planet... the inhabitants are the colonists and the rulers are the crew. The colonists were in cold storage or some such, and when the ship arrived the crew who ran the ship made themselves gods and the colonists (when they took them out of cold storage) their subjects.
This makes sense when you think about it... The crew are awake when they arrive at the new start system, and therefor have complete power over the frozen colonists. Earth and authority are beyond reach (or if I recall correctly, maybe even destroyed) and so there is no one to prevent the crew from doing as they like. It's actually a pretty likely scensario!
--jürgenRe:Another less well known Zelazny (Score:1)
Donnerjack (Score:1)
Re:hmmm.... (Score:1)
Unless you are reading the unexpurgated source material in greek or hebrew, you have a dumbed and watered down copy, which is usually too much even for the tiny brains of most american xtians. eventually, the catholic church cut out all the confusing stuff with all the hierarchies of angels and demons and streamlined the bad guys and good guys to a few notable main characters in order to prevent the mass confusion resulting from tiny-brained worshippers trying to comprehend a complex and philosophical theological system. Try reading a few history books and you might begin to get an idea.
more unsubstantiated babble. I am well aware that many xtian propaganda groups try to fob off meaningless "factoids" like this one to influence the gullable. Now, which books have outsold the bible?here comes my favorite:
With this kind of ignorance, you could only be an American. Buddism and Hinduism (Hinduism being one of the oldest religions in the world, Judaism doesn't even come close unless you count the years when they were ripping off the Sumerians) outdate the fledgeling xtianity by quite a bit. The Koran is younger than xtianity, but the book itself is older than the version most commonly misquoted from by semi-literate bible thumpers, and far less adulterated from the original source.
Of course, all of this is immaterial. why don't you take your mindless yankee bible-prattling to some other forum where it might be more likely to influence the gullable: like alt.fan.richard-nixon?
Re:Doorways In The Sand (Score:1)
In that frame of reference the experiment becomes rather natural.
KFG
Re:Exactly, Jack of Shadows is a better work (Score:1)
I found the three-page sermon delivered by Sam to be very compelling. It actually makes a strong foundation for a value system that does not conflict with rational thought. I know because I read it as an young teen, and promptly adopted it.
"Down with Ugliness!"Cool, code gurus dig Zelazny! (Score:1)
It was really cool to find out that Mudge's favorite book is Jack of Shadows; now it seems Jeremy Allison's fave may be Lord of Light!
Two of my all-time favorites, also, incidentally. I recommend Creatures of Light and Darkness to those unfazed by the mythic imagery of LOL, and This Immortal (aka Call Me Conrad) to those who found the philosophy a bit daunting.
Jeremy, I agree that the review is a spoiler. I liked being suprised by Nirriti's motives.
--Charlie
"Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen."
--Marduk, in Zelazny's "Creatures of Light and Darkness"
cyberspace (Score:1)
Re:Mysterious first chapter... (Score:2)
There is absolutely nothing in the book to support this interpretation. Sam states explicitly when speaking to Kali about midway through the book that the current low-tech human inhabitants of the planet are the descendants of themselves, by which he meant the original colonists, or the "First" as they were called. Those of the First who were still living, if not gods of the Celestial City, were "prince[s] among men," as Hawkana declares. The racial stock of the humans on the planet would thus have been a blend of the races represented by the First. What this was exactly is impossible to determine since we aren't generally told the gods' original names and their current bodies have been sujbected to extensive genetic engineering. The names we are told are "Jan Olvegg" (Norweigian, not Dutch), "Renfrew" (no given surname, but Germanic I think), "Sam" (actually Hebrew in origin, so he could be from almost anywhere, by intent I imagine) and a run-of-the mill (to American ears) female name that escapes me for the moment, but who was incarnated as Brahma at the beginning of the story. This is pretty inconclusive about the what the racial mix of the First was supposed to have been. It's hinted that the use of Hinduism was inspired by the name of their ship, The Star of India.
And where the hell are you getting "Sam Kalkin" from? Kalkin was the name of Sam's Aspect, borrowed from Hinduism like the others. In this case it's the name of a future avatar of Vishnu. His real name was Sam; we aren't told his original surname.
It ought to have been clear to the attentive reader that most of the gods were not all that technically competent. The vast majority of their most effective weaponry was designed and built by a single individual, Yama, and his loss crippled them. The City was designed by Vishnu, and Sam seems to have been a fairly competent engineer in his day. Other than that, the gods didn't look to be any more competent than the average inhabitants of any technically advanced culture who are well able to operate the sophisticated machinery around them but who have only the dimmest understanding of how it all works. How many Americans are able to repair their own TVs? Microwave ovens? Automobiles? Toasters?
Deus Irae (Score:1)
Re:One of Zelazny's best (Score:2)
Re:Well. . . yes and no (Score:2)
And I think it's a good enough book that it's not dependent on a particular intellectual progression by the reader. Different people will find different things in it (I started off thinking of it as "SF" - which is what my copy is labelled as - and ended up reading it more as an epic). So I'm not convinced that telling the reader it's an sf/fantasy science/religion mix up front is going to spoil their enjoyment much. I was more worried about the minor plot spoilers.
Danny.
Re:Joseph Campbell (Score:2)
It had better apply to Star Wars. Lucas used Campbell's work as the outlines of a paint-by-number set to construct the story. That's probably why it resonates so well with so many people despite it's numerous -- and to an objective observer, possibly fatal -- flaws. The motifs are ones we are accustomed to see as the framework of a great myth, so we're inclined to see Star Wars that way even though it is patently not such.
I can't say I was ever a great admirer of Campbell. I never got through any of his books because they annoyed me so much. He seemed so focused on what he saw as the basic equivalence of mythic motifs across cultures that he often seemed to miss the things that made the legends essentially unique. It's undeniably true that there seems to be a limited palette of mythic motifs (and Campbell was hardly the first to notice this either; check out Jung sometime) but IMO each culture used that palette to paint very different pictures.
No doubt this was a reflection of Campbell's own personality more than anything else. I watched a couple of the Bill Moyers interviews. I have never in my life seen someone so acquainted with so many stories who nevertheless seemed to miss the point of so many of them, and then to suck the soul out of them in the telling. He managed to make every single story he related boring as hell, and nothing the producers of the show did by way of illustration or background music could make them interesting again.
ObZelazny: Yes, Lord of Light was one of his best.
Re:Spoilers in the review... (Score:2)
When one's read a novel so often, it's easy not to think about people reading it for the first time!
Danny.
Indian input? (Score:1)
At least in the early '60's, there weren't enough Odinists in America to mount a really big protest against "Thor" comics---although the "National Lampoon" did a great job on the subject with their "Son o' God Comics".
Lord of Light (Score:2)
This is one of my favorite science fiction books. Zelazny always married the mythic to the scientific. Aren't the Nine Princes in Amber also akin to Greek Gods? Pantheistic religions have always believed that earth is a reflection of heaven.
Lord of the Light is his most extended fugue on that theme. The book isn't very politically correct, though. The bad guys are Hindu gods and a follower of Christianity. The hero follows the path of Buddha on purely pragmatic grounds.
Re:Excellent! All we need now is Phil Dick (Score:1)
Is this just TOO much to ask ?
I also read Lord of Light at about 16. This book has to be in the top 10 "required" science fiction books (along with Foundation, Stranger in a Strange Land, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?,
-- Rich
A trip to the bookstore, I think. (Score:1)
Re:Excellent! All we need now is Phil Dick (Score:2)
I had named my machines ghostwheel, logrus and pattern, and for a year used Dilvish in muds and d&d sessions. For a great read, check out _Unicorn Variations_ if you haven't already.
HIs characterization was supreme. If any characters could be alive, his would. But what I most enjoyed were the incredible worlds he would create. I've never had a problem separating fiction from reality, but his worlds were so real that I often imagined myself cursing Stryggaldwir. In some passages he'd seem an Impressionist, in others Cubist...
Winner-take-all future (Score:2)
Sure, there is the religious/secular, technologist/antitechnology, Buddhist/Hindu, stuff going on, (and check out Creatures of Light and Darkness, for his treatment of the Egyptian pantheon), but the aspect that I find chilling and relevant these days, and why I still buy copies of this book for friends, is the exploration of what it means to have a winner-take-all society (like ours), when winning means god-like powers and eternal life while losing means a life of hardship followed by ashes to ashes.
Incidentally, iBooks (http://www.ibooksinc.com/) is in the process of reprinting all (they say) of Zelazny's books, in nice-looking trade editions. Lord of Light is out yet, though.
Good to see... (Score:1)
Yama is one of the coolest characters, along with the demon lord (Taraka, was it?). The overall characteristics/personality/beliefs of the demons was really interesting. But Zelazny's integration of Sci Fi and religion was the real masterpiece of this novel (yes, I suppose I'm repeating a lot from the review, but whatever...).
Zelazny was such a unique and versatile author; I've never read anything by him that wasn't likeable. The whole Amber series (how many were there?) was just fantastic.
If you like Sci Fi and haven't read Zelazny (especially this book), then you are missing out on something great.
amosley
Re:Sounds like a good book. (Score:1)
hmmm.... (Score:1)
Yeah, you know; every now and then and we have a book that remains popular...Shakespeare, Dante's Divine Comedy, Milton's Paradise Lost, Homer's The Odyssey (not not Duff Beer), go even earlier, to the first known story, the Epic of Gilgamesh [evansville.edu].
In the grand scheme of things, a third of century isn't that big of a deal.
Re:Zelazny's Amber series (Score:1)
Then Amber came along. Origionally there were only three of our 8-person group who had any clue about Amber, one was our GM. We came up with an epic game that ran for the entire school semester, and it was by far the best game I've ever been a part of.
Ahh memories....
Great review too, LoL has been on my (way too long) reading list for a while now, ever since I read the Chronicles of Amber and Jack of Shadows. I'll bump it up a bit now
- kazin
Re:Quite simply the best... (Score:1)
Jeremy (Allen)
I remember reading this in the 70's... (Score:1)
I would also recommend "Creatures of Light and Darrkness" which uses the Egyptian deities (among others) as its starting point.
It's a favorite... (Score:2)
Internet Top 100 SF/Fantasy List.
Re:Orson Scott Card (Score:2)
The point? That I believe that this is really his view on religion; that it is an allegorical history more than anything else; an integral part of society. And I think he would agree with the statement that all religion has some truth in it.
All that said, he is a devout mormon! I have a lot of respect for someone who can reconcile a fundamentalist religion with these kinds of beliefs; not that I think they're contradictory, just that it takes an amazing amount of will and conviction to continue to hold beliefs like this in that kind of an environment.
Recurrent themes (Score:2)
This is his best work in this vein, although Creatures of Light And Darkness is also excellent.
It is certainly entertaining with the thousand and one details that come to mind to make a coherent world.
I recall with amusement the prayo-mats (think arcade like devices with flashing lights, etc. that send your prayers to heaven for a few coins), and someone filling a bunch of them with slugs.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip
Re:Crew and colonists (Score:1)
Zelazny is one of my absolute favorite authors; I was quite upset to hear the news of his death. (Ironic, in a way, since nearly all of his protagonists are immortal or at the very least extremely long-lived. I've occasionally wondered whether the screenwriters for Highlander (there was only one!) were influenced by his stuff.)
I'd have a hard time picking a favorite RZ book. They're all excellent. Something else to check out (next time you're in the used bookstore, they're damned hard to find new) are the collections of shorter works, such as The Last Defender of Camelot, Unicorn Variations, The Doors Of His Face, The Lamps Of His Mouth, , etc..
Re:Crew and colonists (Score:1)
A nit:
The original inhabitants of the planet play a significant role. They most definitely are not human, though.
OBPlug: Brust is the literary heir to Zelazny.
Kind Regards,
Reading this book gets you hit on (Score:2)
"I too am an enlightened individual. Nice brand of smokes!"
I had no idea what she was talking about for the longest time. Then I searched around on Amazon and found that there is a book called "Lords of Light" by Deepak Chopra (who is a "new age" writer). Apparently, she had misread the title.
Classic? (Score:1)
the first sentence (Score:2)
Danny.
Re:Lord of Light as CIA ruse? (Score:1)
Homeric nod, plot, and other 3am hallucinations (Score:2)
This same structure is found in Homer's Odysee. IIRC from freshman literature in high school (a disturbing number of years ago), the term for this was in media res or "in the middle" (someting like that anyway).
Rather effective for a heroic work as you see the penultimate part of the plot and the character's struggles to reach that point, with the final segment providing the climactic resolution / bad-guy-smiting. This yields a sense of inevitability to the character's actions, as they are drawn to their fate in the future. This "charmed life" atmosphere is of course fitting for a heroic character/story arc. So the use here could be a deliberate nod to Homer.
OTOH, this device is used everywhere in literature (and things derived from literature such as TV shows and movies, eg. how many times has a Star Trek episode gone like this: two minutes of stuff from the 'end' of that show's plot, intro/credits, back to the beginning...). Consider that this meme has had a few millenia to propogate through the writing culture and it's no wonder that this device is so frequently employed. So maybe RZ wasn't thinking in particular about Homer at the time.
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org [geekaustin.org]
Re:Zelazny ... (Score:1)
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Re:Spoilers in the review... (Score:3)
Danny (who feels he should post if only to stop himself using some spare mod points on this story)
I think the review is a bit out.... (Score:2)
From what I can remember, ALL the human inhabitants were descended from the spaceship crew
The planets original inhabitants were the demons (in the form of "fire elementals")
Correct me if I'm wrong, it's 30 years since I read the book
Re:hmmm.... (Score:2)
Another less well known Zelazny (Score:1)
Zelazny's Amber series (Score:2)
Slightly off topic, Zelazny/RPG fans should definitely check out the Amber Diceless Roleplaying game published by Phase Press (dunno if it is still in print though) - revolutionised our RPG group's perspective of gaming. Why be a 1st level fighter on a dungeon crawl or a poe-faced vampire pretending to be human when you can instead be a demi-god who can reshape the fundamental nature of reality.