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Sealand Looking For Partners 108

Posted by Hemos from the give-us-money-please dept.
An Anonymous Coward writes "This article says Sealand may be looking to set up additional hosting services in the future, including virtual hosting services. However, they say a partner will be required to do it. Also an interesting note: Ryan Lackey, their CTO, lives on the thing for up to three months at a time while everyone else spends two weeks on and two weeks off." Most of this is well-known information -- the shift to looking for a partner is not at all surprising given the current market.
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Sealand Looking For Partners More

Sealand Looking For Partners

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  • Re:The problem with Sealand... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Considering that they provide 256Kb/s of bandwidth to each customer, they obviously have a lot more than 128Kb/s total. The last time I talked to Ryan he said bandwidth was not a problem.

    Yup, & the last time I talked to Bill Gates he said Win XP was a stable, robust business solution that respected established standards.

  • Re:This wouldn't be bad. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Have you met Lackey? Having gone to school with the kid for a year before he dropped out, I know I'd go insane if I were cooped up on a rig with him for more than a week.

    I suppose just being there sounds interesting, in the same way that being in solitary confinement sounds interesting, or just living on a mountaintop. But I'd rather just lock myself in a closet with my laptop and a bucket of halibut than live out there with rdl.

  • Take a look at this map of undersea cables [cybergeography.org]. There looks to be plenty of telecom cables near Sealand. In fact, I'd be surprised if Sealand itself wasn't used as a waypoint for the cables laid prior to Sealand's habitation.

  • Wherever I hang my packets I call $HOME (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    One thing that is definitely in store for Lackey is some time off in the near future, as his technical expertise means he's often stuck on Sealand for up to three months at a time (most everyone else spends two weeks at Sealand and two weeks ashore in Britain). Living on Sealand, however, does have its advantages. "It's cheap, my food when I'm there is free and my housing when I'm there is free," he says. And besides, "I have no apartment anywhere else in the world."

    Nice of them to hire the homeless.

  • Re:Eat fish or die (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward

    No nosy neighbors, no traffic jams, no wasted time spent looking for a parking space, free fish, swimming in summer, and best of all, the natives speak English - what's not to like about Sealand?

    What's not to like?! Here's what's not to like. The place [principality-sealand.net] makes a US trailer park look scenic! It's a frickin' eyesore! And NO ESCAPE!!

  • Sealand is not even a country! (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This is kind of ridiculous. Bandwidth issues aside, the whole argument revolves around the fact that Sealand IS in fact an independent state. This is not the case... look at it and then look at other countries. How many horses are there in Sealand ? None! How many horses in the US ? A lot ... in Europe ? A lot... but - in Sealand? You guessed it. NONE. Now, I don't see a problem with people hosting there. But trying to claim it as an independent state, bearing in mind the points mentioned above, does not gel. The first sign of illegal activity, the RIAA/MPAA will put pressure on the UK goverment, and the UK will declare Sealand as within UK national waters.

  • Shift Schedule (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 16, 2001 @08:42AM (#81709)
    Good Lord... two weeks on, two weeks off. What a *dream*! I work eight weeks on, two weeks off and am way more remote than Sealand ever dreamed of being.
  • By that standard, there are very few sovereign nations, because there are very few nations that could even conceivably withstand a conventional military campaign against the United States

    Defeating a country by defeating its military in battle is one thing.

    Occupying a country and actually ruling it is a whole 'nother problem. The US has a powerful Navy and Air Force, and could probably blockade any nation, defeating them be economic means. All that achieves is... well, not very much. Look at Iraq, Cuba, Libya and Serbia for examples. The US Army is built for fighting armored battles under an air superiority umbrella. I doubt the US Army at present could even seal the border with Mexico to military standards without relying on the Air Force.

    That won't help you in a long drawn out invasion and occupation, even assuming there was political support for it back home. If the US could have taken possession of Cuba, they'd have done it. The fact is that winning wars isn't just about blowing stuff up, it's about strategic policy goals, and no-one has "protracted guerilla war" on their "get me re-elected" list.

  • Laserjet: I would get a little runabout boat and do some fishing when time permits

    Have you SEEN the North Sea?

    It's very cold. Fall in it and you generally die within hours. Usually they don't bother with search parties after 4 hours.

    It's very wet. In addition to the billions of litres of water involved in the actual sea itself, it is almost always raining a storm out there.

    It's very grey. This is not a sunny part of the world. British people go on foriegn holidays a lot for a damn good reason.

    And, most importantly...

    It's not very full of fish. The fish stocks are so depleted that fishing is banned for most of the year (dwindling fish stocks caused partly by industrial pollution, and party by industrial over-fishing- god only knows how the industrial fishing vessels get away with it, can you imagine industrial "hunting" of cattle?). You may think that Sealand's independence protects you from this, but I can assure you that various European naval fishing patrol vessels, manned by short-tempered teenagers operating mounted heavy artillery, will think otherwise.

    This is a cold, wet, grey, industrial and environmentally shattered part of the world. The North Sea is not somewhere you go on holiday.

    --

  • Obvious candidate for a partner would be Big Brother [terra.com], surely?

    Regards, Ralph.

  • the shift to looking for a partner is not at all surprising given the current market.

    So it's ok for this place to blame market conditions for needing to find more partners/money whatever, but for companies that file for bankrupcy and die, for them to blame market conditions for thier death is 'silly'?

    Slashdot. News for nerds. Double Standards for companies we like.

  • The real test of soveriegnty remains the ultimate one: force. If someone else can control your piece of land, you're not a sovereign nation. In that regard Sealand may be sovereign in name but it really isn't in fact.

    By that standard, there are very few sovereign nations, because there are very few nations that could even conceivably withstand a conventional military campaign against the United States.

  • One word (Score:1)

    by kenh ( 9056 )
    Embassy.

    Could I get my house declared an Embassy?
    Could my Colo facility become an embassy?

    Just a thought...
  • Sealand/Havenco are skating on thin ice. They have a great idea, but the cold reality of the situation is that all of their bandwidth comes from one place (mainland England, I belive.)


    Not true. Their bandwidth is currently satellite. While they obviously have to downlink somewhere, it's pretty irrelevant where that downlink is. They have plans for fiber, but are waiting for the money to be there-what's the point of having lots of bandwidth with no customers to use it... However, the point that they are dependent on England is well taken. Trying to get supplies from France or something would be an expensive bitch. Clearly, if the UK decided to get nasty Sealand would be in for some rough waters, so to speak.

    Regards,
  • Where I live, in Britain, we have a variety of obscenity laws. And yet, I can go to the pub and watch all nude dancers while I drink. I can also buy hard liquor and hardcore porn from the local corner store, which is more than you can do in Oregon.

    Well, in other states, you can't drink hard liquor and wathc all-nude dancers. I was under the impression (from an article in Bizarre) that all-nude dancing was illegal in Britain. Also, you can buy hardcore porn from the corner store in Oregon ( if they want to sell it).

    There are restrictions on Liquor sales, but that's beside the point for this argument. We're talking about distributing pornography, not liquor. I wouldn't suggest coming to Oregon to distribute liquor.
  • I seriously doubt that it would be legal in any way, shape, or form to set up a kiddie pr0n archive server in Oregon.

    If you were going to set up a kiddie porn server, this is the place to come. Owning kiddie porn is not illegal on its face. Kiddie pornographers are prosecuted not because it's illegal to own kiddie porn, but because their behavior poses a threat to society. I'm telling you, it's the wild west out here.

  • Re:One word: (Score:4)

    by Mike Buddha ( 10734 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @09:45AM (#81719)
    Porn. Plenty of porn companies can afford this. If they're doing something extreme, and they're located in a dictatorial country like Australia or the US, this may be a good choice.

    In the US, what is deemed obscene varies greatly from place to place. We decide what is obscene from community to community. Where I live, in Oregon, we have no obscenity laws. That's right kids, anything goes. You can watch all nude dancers and drink liquor at the same time. Hard core porn? No problem.

    It seems to me that setting up a pornserver in Oregon would be a lot easier to do then to row out into the middle of the ocean to a country with dubious independent status. If Sealand started doing something worth shutting down I don't think UK would have any problem at all "invading" (based on their reputation).
  • I seem to remember there were a couple of entities trying to lay claim to being the "official" government of Sealand. If my memory serves, Sealand passports blessed by the actual owners were never for sale and are not at present.

    Can anyone correct me or clarify the situation?

    D

    ----
  • Porn.

    Alright, now there is a new market! I haven't seen any adds for that yet:

    Low Speed Porn! Come get yours today, or maybe tomorrow.
  • You don't need a dime to back it up. Make it really cheap and easy for both businesses and consumers (credit cards are a pain for both.. especially to get signed up for small businesses and people w/ bad credit) and just let them pay you to create net money for them in your db.. call them digital gift certificates or something if you like.. usable at any excepting online store and transferable between users.. charge a 1% tax and everyone will think your way better than credit cards and you'll still make a nice profit. :) I've been considering setting up my own server and trying it. I'm probably security paranoid enough to do it well. :)

  • OK, maybe it would be more realistic for me to say that Sealand may be sovereign today, but I'm not sure that its sovereignty can be sustained indefinitely.

    Most countries are safe from U.S. military threats to their sovereignty, but then again the U.S. has been known to be pretty controlling in economic and cultural ways instead. In a certain sense there aren't too many truly sovereign countries in the world today, since most countries lack the ability to survive without depending on the goodwill of other nations (if not militarily, at least for economic or political reasons). The U.S., newly embarked on a four-year mission to strain the good will of the other nations of the world, seems determined to test this sovereignty principle to the utmost, though :)

  • Re:Sealand (Score:3)

    by ethereal ( 13958 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @09:13AM (#81724) Journal
    I am puzzled to why any site would want to host in a country with questionable bandwidth,

    No argument there.

    bad reputation (it's been billed as a future haven for copyright piracy becasue of the "lack" of laws)

    It depends on whether you view that as a bad thing or not, though - if you don't believe in "copyright piracy", Sealand probably sounds like the only sane country in the world. That's not my position, but I could see how someone could feel that way.

    and proximity to a defginite sovereign entity (Great Britain). Since they are within 12 miles of their shores, Great Britain can easily come forward and claim what is rightfully theirs.

    I believe the story is that Sealand was claimed before the limit was 12 miles. As an existing country, they weren't annexed when Great Britain increased their territorial waters, any more than England would be annexed if France increased its territorial waters to 200 Km. Although if they're entirely surrounded by British waters and airspace, Her Majesty could starve them out with little impunity to make a point :)

    The real test of soveriegnty remains the ultimate one: force. If someone else can control your piece of land, you're not a sovereign nation. In that regard Sealand may be sovereign in name but it really isn't in fact.

  • Ok, Im confused.... (Score:5)

    by SonOfSam ( 15164 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @08:45AM (#81725)
    Is HavenCo looking for a business partner because the market is down right now, or is Matt looking for a "partner" because he has to spend 3 months at a time out there?
  • This is fake, sealand citizenship is not open to all, PRINCIPALITY-SEALAND.NET is not the real site for sealand, it is run by someone who has nothing do with sealnd, and is just trying to make money. Something like 20 people have real sealand passports, they are prince roy, his family, and some of the people involved with havenco, any others are a fake, please mod the parent post down, there is no reason to mod up a post promoting a scam
  • Right now there's some 50 year old UNIX hippie rolling around on the floor while his co-workers scratch their heads going "I don't get it."

    SealandKroft indeed.
  • The first sign of illegal activity, the RIAA/MPAA will put pressure on the UK goverment


    And how will a couple of U.S. entertainment lobby groups do that? Kidnap the BBC?
  • Where I live, in Oregon, we have no obscenity laws. That's right kids, anything goes. You can watch all nude dancers and drink liquor at the same time. Hard core porn? No problem.


    If you think anything goes in Oregon, you need to travel a bit. During the time I lived there, I don't recall hearing about any live sex shows, for example, nor do I remember seeing prostitutes' calling cards by payphones.

    Where I live, in Britain, we have a variety of obscenity laws. And yet, I can go to the pub and watch all nude dancers while I drink. I can also buy hard liquor and hardcore porn from the local corner store, which is more than you can do in Oregon.

  • Hrm, I think you mean havenco (Score:3)

    by delmoi ( 26744 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @04:55PM (#81730) Homepage
    HavenCo is looking for partners, not Sealand. Sealand is the 'country' HavenCo is in.
  • the purpose of the place, as i see it, is to remove your data from the possibility of control by another party. while this can be b/c you are doing "bad" things it is not the only reason. this idea of "if you aren't doing anything wrong you don't have to hide" is terrifying.

  • Re:Citizenship... (Score:3)

    by chill ( 34294 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @09:22AM (#81732) Journal
    Correct. The "real" website is http://www.sealandgov.com/
    --
    Charles E. Hill
  • You cannot ... anymore than a company can hide income and assetts by sticking them in swiss bank accounts

    And santa claus really exists, right?
  • Actually, I heard Lackey give a talk at DefCon yesterday, and it sounds like he burns most of his free time on the internet. They've got an assload of bandwidth out there. :)

    He also said that if someone gives him $5 million, he'd start laying the fiber tomorrow, but since they recently achieved profitability, they'd rather not go into debt just now. It sounds like fiber is a few years off for HavenCO to me.

    -Lux
  • They're already slightly profitable, actually. According to Lackey at his talk at DefCON yesterday, that is. He said that they get a big chunk of their business from companies that had already gone overseas for their hosting, but had crappy service in underdeveloped countries. He also claimed that their hosting prices aren't all that steep compared to others in Europe.

    The problem with little states getting on the "liberal laws" hosting business, is that little states with liberal laws can, and do, change those laws when it ceases to be in their interest.

    -Lux
  • No more legal threats from TI or anything of the sort. Legal troubles would be quite simplified on Sealand. I'm sure it will cost a pretty penny of course.

  • They've already thought of that. They are covering themselves from that possibility by using the only thing more powerful than money: public relations.

    Havenco is planning to host a number of sites gratis, such as "information about repressive regimes, corporate malfeasance, corrupt politicians etc". The idea is that HavenCo will try very hard to provide a net benefit to humanity. If England ever does pull the plug, there will be a lot of public outrage.

    That's the theory, anyway.

  • No no, it clearly says that Matt is looking for 'partners' ... hard to get bored with multiple partners...

  • Legal problems... (Score:4)

    by bconway ( 63464 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @08:45AM (#81739) Homepage
    The problem they're going to run into is that being funded by a land-based business in any country is going to subject them to some laws therein. IANAL and can't point out specifics for you, but this point was brought up before with the idea of Napster moving to Sealand, because accepting payments from the states or any other country would put them under some US laws as a business.
  • Then, they can be the nation of SealandKroft...
  • nowhere near 50!
  • They have plans for fiber, but are waiting for the money to be there-what's the point of having lots of bandwidth with no customers to use it...

    That's the most insightful thing I've ever read on Slashdot. A lot (most?) of Nortel's current problems stem from exactly that - massive growth of the infrastructure without the customers to support it. IIRC, only 6% of the current fiber-optic infrastructure is actually in use. (This is from my Economics prof, from memory - we'll see how good that memory is when exams roll around in a few weeks.) There was just too much money pumped into IT, and nothing to do with it, so everybody used to upgrade their network. Now that the money's stopped flowing in, Nortel and others can't sell anymore: why would people shell out when their only using a fraction of what they've got?

  • Actually, HavenCo may be doomed, but SeaLand isn't the same animal. The Principality may still fail, but their fate is not completely tied to the colocation facility.

    This whole Data Haven thing does bare a striking similarity to "The Crypt" in Cryptonomicon though....

  • This is fake, sealand citizenship is not open to all, PRINCIPALITY-SEALAND.NET is not the real site for sealand, it is run by someone who has nothing do with sealnd, and is just trying to make money. Something like 20 people have real sealand passports, they are prince roy, his family, and some of the people involved with havenco, any others are a fake, please mod the parent post down, there is no reason to mod up a post promoting a scam.
  • By real i mean officially endorsed by the government of sealand.
  • By the government of sealand, i mean prince roy.
  • When asked what there ccTLD was, they replied that they had not applied for one, and were not planning on it, becuase of the amount of hassle it invloved, dealing withUN, etc.. Im guessing the real reason for this, is if they tried, it would not be granted, and all it would accomplish is setting a precedent that they are not a real country.
  • The FAQ on HavenCo's website says:

    10. Can I invest in HavenCo? What is your stock ticker symbol? What is the minimum investment?

    HavenCo, Ltd. is not currently a publicly traded company, nor is it listed on any stock exchange. We are currently raising our first round of funds from angel investors within the technology industry. If you are an SEC-qualified investor interested in investing at least USD 100 000, please contact our investor relations department at ir@havenco.com.

  • I'm interested in seeing who has actually signed up for their hosting services... is there any way to find that out?

    Frankly, if you had a controversial site, it seems to me that it would be a whole lot cheaper to just keep bouncing it around from country to country. Legal action takes time; domain transfers take less than 72 hours, and even most of that wouldn't be downtime. On average, 4 hours has been my experience.

  • Porn. Plenty of porn companies can afford this. If they're doing something extreme, and they're located in a dictatorial country like Australia or the US, this may be a good choice.

    But why would they? You can get colocation for a lot cheaper on the mainland, in less stringent countries. And HavenCo has already said that they won't host child pornography, no questions asked, so even HavenCo won't touch the "extreme stuff".

  • I agree with you that their position of independent status meaning anything is dubious at best. The question is, will they ever get a fringe political or religious group angry enough to attack them? All it would take is for one terrorist organization to send a boat out in the middle of the night with a payload the size of the one that McVeigh used in OKC (or even the smaller one Osama Bin-Laden used on the USS Cole), and blow Sealand out of the water.

    The crux of the problem is that HavenCo is expensive, therefore they will only attract the most controversial, well-funded and high-profile sites. The issue becomes, can you afford to have your server located at such a potential target with so many "offensive" sites in one place?

  • ...And become a henchman? Phlueeze, I've seen what happens to poor henchmen's families. I'd like to stay away from evil plots from now on thank you very much.

    - Steeltoe
  • Well, I've got to say this. I may not want to live out at sea for three months at a time, but this guy has it good. He's got cheap, high-speed internet access while he's out there.
  • The problem I see with hosting a site on Sealand is physical security. If I host my site at, say, rackspace.com, and someone else hosts a site there that pisses someone off (e.g., the official Salmon Rushdie fan club is on the next server in the rack), no one is going to lob a missile at rackspace.com to take out the site they don't like, because it would cause a hell of a lot of diplomatic or military problems from them.

    Sealand, on the other hand...if China doesn't like a dissident site there, what's to stop their navy from having a little "accident" while passing by?

    Yes, I realize the place is built on a gun platform designed to withstand some serious force, but that was serious WWII force.

    It just doesn't seem wise to me to put things that might become targets out in international waters if you don't have a good military backing you up.

  • Sealand is in international waters (that's the whole point...when you try to declare soverignity inside someone else's territory, it doesn't work very well...you've got to get outside to have a chance). You can get close enough to them to blast them out of existence without going through anyone's waters.
  • If you want physically secure hosting, try The Bunker [thebunker.net]. This place really has barbed wire fences, blast doors, airlocks, EMP shielding, UPSs, and Diesel generators.
  • IANAL either, but the partner would probably incorporate in Sealand as an independent subsidiary of the parent company, which loosens the grip of the nation the parent company is incorpoated in.
  • Considering that they provide 256Kb/s of bandwidth to each customer, they obviously have a lot more than 128Kb/s total. The last time I talked to Ryan he said bandwidth was not a problem.
  • /me tries -- and fails -- to find anything in the UN charter requiring resident horses as a condition of sovereignty.

    /me sends a E-Mail to Aitutaki telling them to get a few just in case.

    By the way, the UK government already has declared Sealand is in UK waters and will remain so, sovereign or not, unless they redefine either the length of a mile or the definition that international waters lie outside a 12-mile boundary, except for that bit right over there, where six or seven miles ought to do it.

    woof.

  • Sure... Now all we need is about a billion dollars in gold bullion to back it up, and we're in business. Someone get me a corporate AmEx.
  • Established companies like Exodus can't stay in the black, Sealand is probably doomed. Cute idea, but really, who is that interested in dealing with them?

    At the end of the day, they're a colo like any other and you have to evaluate them on throughput, response time, and data security. Sealand puts an emphasis on physical remoteness as an enhancement to security, but this is more of a gimmick than an actual asset.

  • This wouldn't be bad. (Score:5)

    by laserjet ( 170008 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @08:58AM (#81762) Homepage
    Honestly, I would like to work at Sealand for a year or so. I think it would be quite interesting. I would get a little runabout boat and do some fishing when time permits, and browse the internet at night while drinking some scotch or whiskey and listening to the whine of all of the fans in the server room(s) and staring at the blinking lights. It would be an interesting chapter in life.

    scott

  • There are already plenty like what we read in the Cryptonomicon. The only problem is, someone has to be brave enough to jump in. You'll be sure and let me know if these are worth pursuing. They sound too much like the spam I've been getting lately.

    e-gold.com [e-gold.com] , goldeconomy.com [goldeconomy.com], goldmoney.com [gonldmoney.com]

  • Doubtful that it's that easy. Plus there's that whole going to war thing that involves citizens participating. Being a citizen of only one country sort of reduces the chances of my being involved.
  • In. On. Whatever...
    If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.

  • "The few things that only we can do because of our physical location we'll do, and we'll do it well," says Ryan Lackey, a former MIT student who now serves as HavenCo's Chief Technical Officer.

    This is the crux of HavenCo's problem. There are only currently a few customers who both need this service and can afford their steep price. It is very likely that gross income will never make this a good financial gamble, as there are so many other little states getting in on the "liberal laws" hosting business.

    1Alpha7

  • thin ice (Score:3)

    by jchristopher ( 198929 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @09:10AM (#81767)
    Sealand/Havenco are skating on thin ice. They have a great idea, but the cold reality of the situation is that all of their bandwidth comes from one place (mainland England, I belive.)

    Step on the wrong toes, and they'll be crushed. How hard would it be to simply cut off their internet connection using a DMCA type law? Not difficult, I imagine.

    Declaring sovereignty is one thing, but becoming your own nation does not automatically get or guarantee you an internet connection to neighboring countries.

  • Can't wait. However they would have to pass through _someone's_ territorial waters: (lets say it's British waters)

    British radio operator: Identify yourself and state your business, unidentified vessel.
    Chinese radio operator: Oh, we just going for little cruise, just passing through, no need to worry.
    B: I say again, identify yourself and state your business.
    C: We Chinese military vessel on official manoevres
    B: Here?
    C: Yes
    B: In our waters?
    C: ...Yes
    B: Did you ask first?
    C: ...Yes?
    B: Who?
    C: Err, the Queen? <wincing sound>
    B: A likely story
    C: Yeah, honest, she said it okay. She fine lady
    B: You're after that Sealand place aren't you? Just because they have a site that says Mao Tse Tung is a twat. Well, I'm sorry, you're not allowed through.
    C: Chairman Mao is no twat British dog! You rue the day you impugn the glorious leader! Now we at war!

    etc.,etc.

  • Yeah, but I'll bet most of that bandwidth is dedicated to the servers.

    I wonder how long it will be before they lay some fiber down? Maybe even a satellite dish or a microwave relay?

  • ...for the info.
  • Ted! Fire up the boat! I smell a DOT-GONE auction coming up!

  • What will sealand's TLD be ? obviously it can't be .sl (Sierra Leone). Maybe .psl (Principality of SeaLand) ? or .co.sl because they're so close to the UK ?

    Incidentally, Sealand is a nation destined for greatness : can you imagine, if they build a high-rise on it (*the* high-rise), they'll multiply their landmass by 50 or more :-)

  • It doesn't look all that different from Bora Bora, [tahiti.com] except it's cheaper, cooler, there's no mosquitos, you don't have to tip, and did I mention the natives speak English?
  • No nosy neighbors, no traffic jams, no wasted time spent looking for a parking space, free fish, swimming in summer, and best of all, the natives speak English - what's not to like about Sealand?

    In most of the world, there is no such thing as a doggie bag . - Prof. Kelly Brownell
  • Only if I can get a Sealand Drivers license. (c=

    --
    All your .sig are belong to us!

  • Actually it was meant to be ironic, as in China turning the tables on Great Britain through Sealand. Consider for a moment the sabre rattling going on over Taiwan and the fact the UK and US fail to recognize Sealand. What's to stop China from 1) Recognizing Sealand and 2) Extending diplomatic relations. Other than, of course, the damage it would do to their WTO application, but nobody ever thought of that back in colonial days, eh? The chinese government, too, seems to do as it pleases, and yes, it would be funny to see them claim a colony in european waters, much the way the founder of Sealand has. :)

    --
    All your .sig are belong to us!

  • Sure, now all you're missing is some geek chick to be signed on there, too and you got it made.

    Really though, all they need to do is route traffic through there, the actualy servers could be anywhere in the world, right? Still this thing would be a beauty dream if it were, say, off the coast of Baja California. If anyone has a few million bags of marine concrete lying around, lemme know. We can call it SlashDotLand (c=

    --
    All your .sig are belong to us!

  • China Vs. Sealand (Score:3)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @09:12AM (#81778) Homepage Journal
    This just in, The Peoples Republic of China have claimed Sealand (Tse Chin) is actually a renegade Colony, in much the way Hong Kong was to Great Britain. In a firey speak with many veiled threats Jiang Zemin said the wayward colony will be brought to heel and warned world governments not to interfer.

    --
    All your .sig are belong to us!

  • Wrong, Sealand was in international waters, before britan extended its claim of the ocean. Now it surrounded by british waters. The story is here [sealandgov.org], scroll down to the part that says: Extension of Territorial Waters


    --
  • Porn. Plenty of porn companies can afford this. If they're doing something extreme, and they're located in a dictatorial country like Australia or the US, this may be a good choice.

  • The real test of soveriegnty remains the ultimate one: force. If someone else can control your piece of land, you're not a sovereign nation. In that regard Sealand may be sovereign in name but it really isn't in fact.
    Read the history - they've already fought a war, defeating Germany and Holland. If Sealand had only been around 60 years ago WW2 would never have happened!
  • Nah...do a little research and you'll discover that in the 60's and 70's this was all worked out in the British courts. IIRC, some British citizen in a boat got too close to Sealand and the King of Sealand started shooting at him. The boater reported it to the police, who arrested (illegally) the King of Sealand for violating British laws. When he stood trial, his defence was that he was the king of a sovereign nation defending his territory and was no subject to British law. The courts pretty much agreed with im and set him free.

    Except, as I pointed out the last time we had a Sealand article on Slashdot, some random court in Britain does not have the jurisdiction to recognize nations. If I convince a traffic judge in Oklahoma not to fine me $50 for speeding because I have diplomatic immunity as the Grand Poobah of Burpistan, does that mean George W Bush has to run out and appoint an ambassador to Burpistan City? From smoking what kind of drugs would you get such a ridiculous idea?

    First the Germans tried going through Britain, but Britain washed it's hands of the matter because Sealand was a sovereign nation.

    The Foreign office stopped returning calls on the matter because they didn't feel it worth their while to play referee to a childish spat between playmates.

  • pulling the plug on even a semi-recognized independent nation is dangerous

    A. No it's not. Countries have dropped off the net over the years for all sorts of reasons, ranging from non-payment to pissing off the wrong functionary at a university in some other country who had the key to the right satellite downlink cabinet.

    B. "Semi-recognized" means - I would hope - something more than formal diplomatic accreditation by the protocol offices of Wired and Slashdot.org. Taiwan is semi-recognized. Notice any difference?

    I doubt UK or anyone else for that matter wants to get into a plug pulling war even if it is just with miniscule Sealand.

    Nobody cares, because Sealand can't pull anyone else's plugs (without committing actual crimes in actual countries).

  • It just doesn't seem wise to me to put things that might become targets out in international waters if you don't have a good military backing you up.

    What are you talking about? Between King Roy's (known in France as Roi-Roy) one good eye, and Crown Prince Michael's popgun collection (they can't use the helicopter for wargames because that would forfeit their rental deposit) they could easily fend off an entire school of angry scrod.

  • Being subject to laws and having the law enforced are different things. Many foreigners are subject to US law, but it is difficult for the US government to enforce it against them.

    For some reason, it ends up being pretty easy. It seems that large numbers are unable to resist:

    • Coming to the US for vacation
    • Coming to the US on business
    • Dealing in US-based securities, or financial instruments that pass through US brokerages
    • Ordering goods directly from US-based suppliers

    I'm not being sarcastic, it does actually surprise me how often people fail to avoid these simple behaviors. Among a fairly large class of sleazy ausländers there are major style points to be had from a high-rolling trip to New York City.

  • Wouldn't Sealand have their own 6 or 12 miles zone, allowing them free access to the ocean, to be supplied from Netherlands if the need arose?

    Let's see, which relationship is more important to the Netherlands... that with Sealand, or, um, Britain? Sheesh.

    Moot in any case since under no possible hyperbolic misapplication of geometry is the Netherlands in any physical position to grant sea access to Sealand.

  • Their bandwidth is currently satellite.

    Are you sure about this? I'm quite certain I read that it was microwave point-to-point to Britain.

    I cannot imagine anyone on God's green earth paying money for the molasses latency of a satellite-connected colo facility.

  • Sealand, on the other hand...if China doesn't like a dissident site there, what's to stop their navy from having a little "accident" while passing by?

    I'm sure we're all looking forward to the day China conducts naval exercises in the North Sea (echoes of Chung Kuo [amazon.com]).

  • Something like 20 people have real sealand passports

    I think you meant to say "nobody has a real Sealand passport", as in, nobody has a Sealand passport that they could use as ID to get into a bar, let alone to cross a border.

    We might as well argue about who has real passports for my treehouse.

  • That wasn't funny, merely racist.

    What was racist about it? Nobody is allowed to mock the often-mockworthy Chinese government because the people who run it happen to be of an identifiable ethnicity?

  • Take a look at this map of undersea cables. There looks to be plenty of telecom cables near Sealand. In fact, I'd be surprised if Sealand itself wasn't used as a waypoint for the cables laid prior to Sealand's habitation.

    Take a look at this map of Sealand [sealandgov.org]. I'd be surprised if any of those cables came within 50 miles of Sealand. The cables on your map head off from Dover Peninsula to the south and near Yarmouth to the north. Sealand, meanwhile, is tucked in there within spitting distance of delightful downtown Harwich.

  • Since they are within 12 miles of their shores, Great Britain can easily come forward and claim what is rightfully theirs.

    Nah...do a little research and you'll discover that in the 60's and 70's this was all worked out in the British courts. IIRC, some British citizen in a boat got too close to Sealand and the King of Sealand started shooting at him. The boater reported it to the police, who arrested (illegally) the King of Sealand for violating British laws. When he stood trial, his defence was that he was the king of a sovereign nation defending his territory and was no subject to British law. The courts pretty much agreed with im and set him free.

    Again, this was back in the day before Britain claimed 12 miles of territorial water. When Britain expanded, I believe that Sealand did as well and that they share some of the same territorial waters (so that Sealand isn't boxed in).

    There are some other interesting stories about a time when a German man tried to invade Sealand for his own purposes. The government of Sealand took him as a POW and the government of Germany was forced to negotiate with Sealand for his release. First the Germans tried going through Britain, but Britain washed it's hands of the matter because Sealand was a sovereign nation.

    Sealand has a quite fascinating (albeit short) history.

    Say "NO!" to tax money for religious groups. [thedaythatcounts.org]
  • I believe the story is that Sealand was claimed before the limit was 12 miles. As an existing country, they weren't annexed when Great Britain increased their territorial waters, any more than England would be annexed if France increased its territorial waters to 200 Km.

    The court case that the Sealand folk have trumpeted did not involve recognition but the jurisdiction of the English courts. Just because the English courts rule that the platform was outside their jurisdiction does not mean that the platform was considered 'sovereign'. Under the British Constitution that is reserved exclusively to the Crown in Parliament which effectively means the government of the day.

    Man made structures are not considered to have sovereign status under UK law or indeed under any national law I am aware of. The North Sea is peppered with oil rigs. The occupation of which has no territorial consequence. Each oil rig is registered as a ship would be and national law applied accordingly.

    As for the situation with France several of the Channel Islands that are under the British Crown are part of the Dutchy of Normandy and there is an Anglo/French dispute over their status since there is a large oil field in the English Channel.

  • pulling the plug on even a semi-recognized independent nation is dangerous. so far everyone has been playing somewhat nice with the cables. I doubt UK or anyone else for that matter wants to get into a plug pulling war even if it is just with miniscule Sealand.
  • We decide what is obscene from community to community. Where I live, in Oregon, we have no obscenity laws.

    Now I find out why Dad moved to Oregon when he retired. 8-)

    Seriously, this works for a bar or a store. It doesn't work for a web business. If some nosy parker in Memphis downloads it and reports it to the authorities, you can get indicted and tried under Tennessee law and Memphis community standards. If you want to be safe, you've got to be somewhere out of reach of interstate extradition, and probably the feds also. (I pick on Memphis because it was long the home location of a porn-obsessed postal inspector whose lifelong mission was to impose Memphis community standards on mail order literature everywhere. And under US laws he could, until the vendors learned to refuse all orders from those zip codes.)

  • If they'd just rename the place "pr0nland" I'm sure there'd be plenty of takers.
  • Where I live, in Oregon, we have no obscenity laws. That's right kids, anything goes.

    No, I'm not planning on moving to Oregon to set up a server... however, I seriously doubt that it would be legal in any way, shape, or form to set up a kiddie pr0n archive server in Oregon. Maybe I'm just a little skeptic, but I've never heard of ANYWHERE on the planet that has *no* obscenity laws.

    You can watch all nude dancers and drink liquor at the same time. Hard core porn? No problem.

    Just a few miles north of you is this little country called Canada. For the most part, you can watch completely nude dancers and drink liquor, and rent hard core porn (subject still to some restrictions) anywhere. (/me dons flame retadant suit) Helps to not live in a country that seems irrevocably tied to its churches :)

  • Ahh, thats right. That's not really as fast as it seems though. That's 1 board brand user or a few 56kers. Definatly NOT practical for major file hosting.
  • of Sealand is open to all those who want it.

    Irrespective of his/her origin, race and his/her religion, anyone can become a citizen of the Principality of Sealand if he is prepared to make use his/her talents to establish and boost the acceptance of an emerging state.

    If you think you'd like a second (or third, or fourth...) citizenship, you can contact them at INFO@PRINCIPALITY-SEALAND.NET
  • I have heard many times on the old Napster Forums (closed now) to move Napster's servers to Sealand. Since the demise of the "pirate" Napster, I gather they're looking for other sites to derive income from.

    I am puzzled to why any site would want to host in a country with questionable bandwidth, bad reputation (it's been billed as a future haven for copyright piracy becasue of the "lack" of laws) and proximity to a defginite sovereign entity (Great Britain). Since they are within 12 miles of their shores, Great Britain can easily come forward and claim what is rightfully theirs.

    So far, they've managed to fly under their radar since they really haven't done much.
  • You are correct. There were even fake passports circulated in 1997. Find out more here:

    Official Sealand Site [sealandgov.com]

  • Fault Tolerance? (Score:3)

    by deathcow ( 455995 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @10:04AM (#81805)
    Fault Tolerance must be an interesting topic around that place.

    "Perhaps we can get another provider's fiber feed, laid 100ft apart from the first!"...

    "No, I say we build a complete second redundant data center! Over there!" (Guy points to other side of platform.)

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