Star Wars II: Return of the Name 947
Mutant was among the onslaught of readers who submitted that the final name has been chosen for Star Wars Episode II. It is... Attack of the Clones. Let the sarcasm commence. I'll pass judgement after I see it.
Star Wars isn't supposed to be deep (Score:2)
Was The Odyssey deep? Of course not. It was half blood and gore and half hot, sexy sea nymphs. Was Beowulf deep? Of course not, it was a super-human hero killing evil critters left and right.
There are, in Western culture at least, certain common images and settings that we have come to expect. They're an unwritten cultural and artistic language. "White" is the good guy, "Black" is the bad guy. Good guys have blond hair, bad guys have deep voices. The good guy doesn't kill the bad guy when he's down. Forests are places of mysticism. In American culture, the freedom-loving underdog rebels are always the good guys over the evil imperial military hegemony. (See also: American Revolution. Why do you think all Imperial officers have British accents?)
Star Wars very deliberately and openly plays into every single one of those. It is the "classic" and "quintessential" epic good vs. evil saga, because it pulls in every one of the things that we have come to expect in good vs. evil sagas over the past 2500 years. All good classics have things that you can anchor yourself on and use as a springboard into the plot. If Luke wasn't a goody two-shoes, no one would have liked him. If Han wasn't a "lovable rogue" but was really a nasty guy through and through, everyone would have hated him and Leah hooking up.
We're expecting too much from a saga that was intended not to break new plot ground, but to be a damn fun watch. And it was, because we like seeing the underdog good guys win by being good guys and the evil controlling imperial bad guys go down because they're the bad guys. Accept Star Wars for what it is: A hot damn fun adventure story in the style of classic adventure stories throughout the ages.
Do that, and you can even live with the Ewoks and Jar Jar. (I happen to like the Ewoks, they're cute!)
The problem (Score:2)
Space opera isn't necessarily kid fare. It needs to be done as if it is a _masterpiece_. Yes, everything is overblown and exaggerated- that's the point. But it can't be the slightest bit tongue-in-cheek- and the merchandising machine increasingly makes it tough to do that.
"Defeats the big evil villain who turns out to be his father, and, dying, reforms and looks upon his son with his own eyes" is an opera.
"Wins the big race" is an Elvis movie (and a video game).
Lucas has the _chance_ at great space opera, still. To show the corruption of Anakin is potentially great space opera. But there is definitely a risk that he'll completely blow it- too many computerized extras, too many merchandising tie-ins affecting the scanty plot of the movies, which won't stand much of that treatment. Space opera plot is _cheesey_. Hijack a bit of it for use as a video game or something, and you risk losing all of it by losing the thread and not being able to pick it up again.
At least it ought to wind up an absolutely great issue of 'Cinefex' ;)
Alternate titles for Episode Deux (Score:2)
Rejected titles for Episode 2:
Lucas hopes the 2nd film will make people forget the recent study alleging that the creator of Star Wars is a pedophile. [ridiculopathy.com]
Title for Episode III (Score:2, Funny)
Not a thing of childhood (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, many people are ranting about how "Attack of the Clones" is a retarded movie title. I'd have to agree. Granted, I'm one of those 'saw it when I was young, fell in love with it, altered reality,' types. My parents, on the other hand, are not.
My parents recently saw Episode I. They were appauled at the horrid commericialization of the franchise and the apparent lack of effort that went into the actual film, the story, and the plot. Granted, Luca always triedmake money, but Star Wars was art when Lucas started making it. He said so himself - his opt-outs about how it's simply a childrens film and such are just that - opt outs. I mean, for crying out loud, Episode I didn't even have new music composed for it to fit the film - it simply had a compiled version done by someone else, so they could slap John William's name on it. They spent all their budget on special effects. Bastards.
What was wrong with "The Clone Conflict", anyhow? (Score:2)
Just remember.... (Score:2, Interesting)
The real face of scifi fandom & the geek community (Score:4, Flamebait)
I have been reading Slashdot for several years. I created an account just to post this. And here is what I have to say:
This is getting silly. Half of the comments here seem to be lamenting the fact that the prequel trilogy appears to be geared towards children. Well, I've got news for you: the same applies to the original trilogy as well. You just don't realize it because you were so young when the movies first came out.
Do you know why almost everybody here hates the Ewoks in ROTJ? Because they make you feel insecure. You're afraid that people will laugh at you for watching a children's movie with talking teddy-bears in it. And they will. You should just shrug it off, but you can't because of your low self-esteem. And, for some reason, you can't realize that the average Joe sees all Star Wars movies as children's movies, regardless of whether they have Ewoks or Jar-Jar in them or not.
The Jargon File [tuxedo.org] has a section called "A Portrait of J. Random Hacker [tuxedo.org]". I'm sure most of you here have read it. The section has a list of "Things Hackers Detest and Avoid", and here is how it begins:
"Offensive cuteness" seems to rank very high on the list, right after Microsoft. Why is this? I believe that the reason is the same as stated above: you fear that being associated with any sort of "cuteness" (such as the Ewoks in ROTJ) will make you look ridiculous and childish in the eyes of others. And a lot of people seem to think that enjoying "dark" movies such as The Empire Strikes Back or The Matrix will somehow help you gain acceptance and credibility.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but it doesn't work that way. Nobody cares if you prefer The Empire Strikes Back to Return of the Jedi, or The Matrix to The Phantom Menace, or Babylon 5 to Star Trek. Again, to the proverbial average Joe, it's just "stupid sci-fi for geeks and nerds". That's what people think.
And here's another explanation: many of you are depressed and therefore can't stand the thought of "offensive cuteness" such as talking teddy bears or Jar Jar. You'd rather wear all black, watch splatter movies and listen to German industrial rock while fantasizing about killing your classmates or coworkers. Sorry about being a bit over the top, but this is how "regular people" see you. They don't see you as intelligent persons who appreciate a good sci-fi movie. Instead, they see you as sad computer geeks.
Somebody here wrote something along the lines of "well, Star Wars sucks, but fortunately we'll still have The Matrix and Lord of the Rings".
Huh? Are sci-fi and fantasy movies all you have? If you get mad because the title of the new Star Wars movie did not live up to your expectations, I think you should seriously re-examine the priorities in your life.
Re:The real face of scifi fandom & the geek commun (Score:3, Interesting)
It is lame to bash or even look down on other geeks because you think their tastes aren't hardcore enough-- isn't it enough that half the world already looks down on us? Do we need to add to the persecution?
-m
Re:That wasn't my point (Score:2)
And for the record, I like Pokemon, Ewoks, Smurgfs, the Gummi Bears, and Koalas. I also like Cowboy Bebop, Fist of the North Star, Iguanas, and Spawn.
I think my tastes probably run closer to the average section of slashdot than your projection. I believe we're all pretty eclectic people...
Kintanon
A word for all the naysayers (Score:3, Insightful)
Yea and those who dare not to venerate the name of Lucas and pay the required homage shall be stricken from the rolls of the nation. They will be outcasts in their own land of birth. Denied bland conversation with their fellow citizens about the masterworks of Lucas, they will wallow in their anguish. They shall be stricken from the lists of people to be protected in time of war and their names will be added to the lists of those who will not recieve the bounty of this great land in the form of Blue Light specials and the occasional Buy one Get one FREE sales at the local Piggly Wiggly. They shall be stricken from the rolls of every good and beneficient policy this great conglomerate bestows upon it's consumers. Moreover their name shall be dupliated in all databases related to taxation and if they ever contest this clause, they are subject to auditing by the BSA, RIAA, MPAA and Rectal-Probers-R-Us.
So let it be written(in tiny print behind an encryption scheme which may not be broken under article two of this constitution, formerly known as the DMCA) so let it be done.
Now if you missed this update to the supreme law of our land, that isn't my fault. I suggest you rush right out to your computer and fully enable all the update packages you can and register any and all software you have. I got this preview of our new constitution as a bonus when I downloaded the latest version of Minsweeper, the official game of the land. Baseball isn't bringing in enough money it seems.
Steven
Attack of the Clones (Score:4, Funny)
(To the tune of "Send In The Clowns")
CmdrTaco strikes again (Score:5, Funny)
This will be a first.
You'll never see it. SW2 violates the DMCA! (Score:4, Insightful)
Lucas will be sued by God with penalties of 10 years in jail, a $5,000,000 fine or both. However a plea bargain may be possible if Lucas agrees to please kill off Jar Jar.
Re:CmdrTaco strikes again (Score:2)
first logged in sarcasm! (Score:3, Interesting)
Lucas has lost it.
I was about to apply for a job at Lucasarts, now I just might be too embarrased!~
*sigh* (Score:5, Funny)
Re:*sigh* (Score:2, Funny)
I can see it now... (Score:4, Funny)
Bummer... (Score:4, Funny)
Dancin Santa
Re:cloned army of jar jar (Score:5, Funny)
Re:cloned army of jar jar (Score:2)
Then I was told they were all clones. "Who did they clone, Bozo the clown?", I replied.
I guess I wasn't that far off.
Re:Bummer... (Score:4, Funny)
Without a doubt, that's the title's subliminal message: "How can they be clones, if you only buy one of each action figure?"
Expect the action figures for this one to be sold in sets of twelve.
Re:Bummer... (Score:2)
The first Death Star was destroyed by sending a torpedo down an exaust port that triggered a chain reaction that eventually blew up the main reactor.
The second Death Star, if complete, would presumably be without this flaw - at the time of the attack, however, it was incomplete, so the rebels just flew through the infrastructure and blew up the reactor directly.
So only the first Death Star had the flaw - the only problem with the second was that it wasn't finished yet.
Re:Bummer... (Score:2)
Did you see the movie, or just listen to it? The death star had huge chunks missing from it. Sure, it was habitable, and they could fire the laser and blow stuff up, but the thing was unfinished. That's how the rebel fleet was able to fly ships inside of it to get to the reactor - they flew through the part that wasn't completed yet.
Don't argue. Go watch the movie.
Great for the kiddies, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Do people who enjoyed George Lucas' original trilogy (well, minus the last half of RotJ) really care about the George Lucas' current focus on ten-year-olds?
Re:Great for the kiddies, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
I can only speculate why there has been a sacrifice of the genuine quality and depth of the sextet; there is a prolific desire for these to be the universal fantasy of princesses and demons, and yet I personally find the new version of Star Wars providing answers where it is better to leave mystery, showing special effects where there should be simplicity, and employing the enactment of great plot to show power where there should be implication of power through character.
I personally had hoped for the artistic appreciation I now have of the original trilogy, but was disappointed. True power is restraint, something that lacks in the making of Episode I of the Star Wars series, contrasting its predecessors.
Of course, it is not my call to make, but I do wish George Lucas had shown the discretion to appeal to many levels of appreciation.
Yeah, it's like watching Big Bird go into the oven (Score:5, Funny)
"Star Wars" was MY childhood. My middle-school friends and I argued endlessly about "Empire." Vader, Luke's father? No way. Who was this Boba Fett anyway? Why was he masked the entire film. Somethin's gotta be goin' on there.
WE WAITED MORE THAN A DECADE FOR EPISODE 1! I grew up, I became an OLD MAN waiting for that bloody movie. When I heard it was coming, it was like the Return of Gandalf. The World would be OK. I dragged my wife to the theater, promising her it would be great, this would be epic, Strap In and Enjoy the Ride.
Ten minutes in, I wanted to shoot myself. Twenty minutes in, and my wife was openly wondering if this constituted the sort of spousal abuse that would get her more than 50% in the divorce.
To give you a contemporary example, I want you to go to your child and explain that in the next book, which we're all waiting for like it was Christmas, in the next book, Dumbledore turns out to be a child molester.
Watch the look on the face of your little Harry-or-Hermione-wannabe.
THAT's exactly how episode one made me feel.
Re:Yeah, it's like watching Big Bird go into the o (Score:4, Flamebait)
Now, I didn't expect much from Phantom Menace, and I actually got more than I expected. I saw kids leaving the theater with wide eyes and full of excitement. No doubt the same way I looked when I saw Star Wars in the theater more than 20 years ago.
Get over it, man. Star Wars is a children's franchise. It was never good to begin with, so why expect it to be the pinnacle of film now?
Derek
Re:Yeah, it's like watching Big Bird go into the o (Score:2)
Personally I'd love to, but LUCAS WON'T LET ME! I have to buy the stupid "Special Editions". Damn I wish I had bought them years ago before the painful-to-watch Han and Jabba scene in Episode IV.
Re:Yeah, it's like watching Big Bird go into the o (Score:2)
Empire was a kid movie too, my friend. Just because a guy gets his hands cut off doesn't mean the movie is not for children. Many "child movies" do attempt to explore great themes. Look at recent Disney films: Beauty and the Beast (tired cliche that beauty is only skin deep, but still questioned by adults) and The Lion King (the struggles in trying to pass down your values).
In contrast, Star Wars had a lot of stuff blowing up. Lucas goes into how they're "myth-based" and feature deeper stories, but the truth is the more vague he and his writers were about the "force", the better. When they started going into detail (midi-chlorians (sp) anyone?) it became even more laughable.
Face it, people always love what they grew up with as kids. That's why marketers love the 12-18 market: these people will not only buy they're goods then, but continue to buy their goods for years beyond to "reminisce". Meanwhile, Lucas is sitting quietly, as always, laughing all the way to the bank.
Concerning blind spots... (Score:3, Insightful)
"I saw episode IV-VI when I was a kid, and they were great! and now I went to see episode I, and I was shocked to find that it was made for kids!"
well... have you ever considered the fact that the first three were, too? and that you like them now because you saw them when you were kids?
I saw episode one on the premier night here in Sweden. never in my life have I witnessed such excitement. the one boo! I heard was when we saw that they had translated (!) the magical three paragraphs to Swedish!
then it was all cheers, every time a reference to the old movies were made, or a familiar character was presented.
most of my male friends thought it was great, with the exception of Jar-Jar. and I see the same consensus here. I have yet to find a single gyu that likes him, or even stands to watch him. and I would like to offer another view of that.
me and some of my female friends have discussed this phenomena. we all think he's cute. the one bone we have with him is that he's the only one in all the movies that succeeds not by doing his best, but by being chronically clumsy and equally lucky.
but he is a caricature of a lot of negative male characteristics. and maybe you guys don't like to be reminded of those.
it's the only way we could explain the extreme, one-sided hate we have witnessed. and maybe there is some truth in it...
now, flame all you like... I have mail filters, and I know how to use them.
Re:Yeah, it's like watching Big Bird go into the o (Score:3, Insightful)
Remember finding out about child abuse on Gont, and why wizards from Roke avoided girls, in Ursula Le Guin's Tehanu?
Remember when all the kids got killed, and Aslan turned into Jesus, in C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle?
Remember when Bilbo Baggins turned into an old, evil monster (if only for a moment) in J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings -- and then the "sequel" to that had no hobbits, only elf genealogy and linguistics?
If it's not what you expected -- that is, what you extrapolated from the first movie(s) or book(s) -- you're not going to like it. We build cosy little worlds from the "original" stories, then hate it when the author intrudes.
No, I don't think there's a solution. But the problem isn't unique to George Lucas. Sequels to creative works you unconditionally love will tend to suck.
Especially with speculative / escapist fiction -- part of the appeal of which is (I assume) that the "world" presented is self-contained, and the (usually young) reader can comprehend it in its totality. Unlike the all-too-confusing real world.
Re:Yeah, it's like watching Big Bird go into the o (Score:2)
A book, written for children, in which the child leads are all killed off -- and that's presented as a "happy ending"? Stuff Christianity, that's un-Christian!
I agree completely. But additions by the author can have an unpleasant effect on the audience, who may have been expecting something different. With "Star Wars" (bringing us belatedly back on topic), it looks like many fans-from-childhood were disappointed that the new film appealed to current children, not to thirtysomething original audience members. The examples I suggested take other paths:
-
Earthsea - a "mature" sequel to a kids' trilogy;
-
Narnia - a pretty shocking ending to a series intended for kids;
-
Middle-Earth - progressively more "complex" add-ons to a kids' book
The thing is, if you enjoyed the "originals" as kids' stuff, you don't necessarily want the add-ons to be more complex. Do we really want to see "dark", "edgy", "adult" themes in kiddie-lit sequels? I doubt it. I want my kids to be able to enjoy the same simple pleasures as me. Including films and books that are aimed at kids, not aging nerds like us.Re:Great for the kiddies, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Like many others, I was heavily influenced as a child by Star Wars, and Star Wars played a huge part, I think, in the shaping of my personality. To this day, I still enjoy movies with starships, lasers, and weird monsters. And I still enjoy Star Wars.
However, I never expected Episode I to magically return me to twelve years of age. I never expected it to erase my capacity for critical thought and open a world of childlike wonder in my head for one simple reason: I'm no longer a child. Neither did I expect the Messiah to come down and fellate me, as so many who were disappointed by Episode I seem to have expected.
So, while I wasn't all that crazy about Jar Jar, I had relatively few other complaints with the movie. It didn't blow me away, but then, I didn't really expect it to. Especially being an expository prequel such as it is. I feel its biggest weakness as a movie is that it's essentially all backstory. A computer-generated Gungan... not that big a deal.
To be honest, what's disenchanted me more than anything about Star Wars is all the Lucas-bashing and vitriol that seems to characterize the "fans".
I get tired of "Kill Jar Jar" humor that's neither clever nor funny. I get tired of seeing Lucas demonized and slandered by people who won't put their money where their mouth is and just refuse to see the movie they supposedly hate -- instead of demanding it be put on DVD immediately. I get tired of people pretending that someone's putting a gun to their head and forcing them to buy merchandise they don't want. I get tired of people attacking Lucas and his movies for not living up to their "mythical hype" when Lucas has said many times that it's just a Flash Gordon serial with a budget.
That, more than anything, has sapped my enjoyment of the Star Wars universe, far more than any annoying CGI character ever could. But I still enjoy the movies. I just wish others could do the same, or at least move on with their lives if they no longer find the movie enjoyable.
Re:We are right to be disappointed (Score:2)
All throughout the movie, I kept asking Lucas, silently, "was that really necessary?
On the whole, Episode I could have been a really fantastic film. Even now, with just a couple of edits, it could still be saved. Cut 1: take Threepio out of the film. He adds absolutely nothing to the advancement of the plot, and it stretches the suspension of disbelief to the breaking point that he was built (or rebuilt) by the dorky little kid that Anakin Skywalker is portrayed as. He's little more than a victim-bot throughout, and his lines are meaningless. Cut 2: most of Jar Jar's scenes could be removed. He could just be digitized out of about half of his scenes, and no one would notice. The actors don't really react to him anyway, since he doesn't exist on the soundstage while they're filming. He could be brought in only where he advances the plot, such as in the scene where he brings Amidala to the Gungans.
There's nothing to be done about the kid. His acting can't be improved by digitizing it, and I suspect any attempt to do so would just make it worse. But taking those two irritating elements out of the story would vastly improve its belivability. The rest of the plot is fair-to-middling, and I really didn't have any problems with it.
Re:Great for the kiddies, but... (Score:2)
That's a very good point. I had never thought of it that way, but you're right. Han is supposed to be a lying, cheating, stealing, arrogant braggart. But he starts to see the bigger picture, and he learns what is really important.
Sure it's bad.... (Score:3, Insightful)
but Blue Harvest [blueharvest.net] was already used....
ENOUGH already! (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, someone else has probably already posted this sentiment by now...
Re:ENOUGH already! (Score:2)
Mmm hmm, check. Those Mad Magazine guys were onto something, I tell you. The future of Star Wars is right there for anyone not too blind to see it.
Ok, I have to go buy some more tinfoil and rewrite my pamphlet debunking the Clone Gunman theory. More later, if Lucas' minions don't catch up to me first.
-rpl
Re:ENOUGH already! (Score:5, Funny)
When Jedi Attack (Score:5, Insightful)
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
???
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
They're all silly unless you've been conditioned as a child to think they're all amazingly cool. Fortunately, I have. :-)
get over it (Score:2)
Re:When Jedi Attack (Score:2)
Re:When Jedi Attack (Score:3, Funny)
Star Wars: Episode 3: Your Childhood Memories are Raped For Two Solid Hours, then the Orchestral Score and Mood Lighting in the Last Thirty Seconds Tricks You into Thinking that this is a Worthy Prequel to Episode 4.
A little unwieldy, I grant you, but it's only a working title.
Re:When Jedi Attack (Score:5, Funny)
Nope, sorry but Snap Action Tongue and Mini Rocketlauncher are patented and used exclusively on Monika and Bill action figures.
Gah (Score:3, Interesting)
- It [using chapter titles] harkens back to the sense of pure fun, imagination and excitement that characterized the classic movie serials and pulp space fantasy adventures that inspired the Star Wars saga.
Gag me. Worse than merely being cheesy, it's an evil blend of marketing and cheese.Episode III leak... (Score:4, Funny)
Very sad ... (Score:4, Flamebait)
By poisiong the debate with such senseless propaganda as "Attack of the Clones" he does injury not only to an honorable public servant with only the public's best interests in mind, but he also places in jeopardy the lives of people needing a cure. To eliminate the hope of these people is a crime against humanity.
For shame Lucas! For shame!
Re:Very sad ... (Score:2)
To eliminate the hope of these people is a crime against humanity.
I guess they need A New Hope.
Excerpt from leaked screenplay (Score:5, Funny)
Anakin looks up to see Queen Amidala and Obi-Wan dressed like clones, holding miniature billboards advertising the clone college and dancing to clone music. "Amidala...?" asks Anakin slowly. "Yes, Anakin?" answers the clone Amidala, starting to hum clone music.
Anakin: That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clone college! [leaves]
Obi-Wan: I don't think any of us expected him to say that.
The full story arc: (Score:4, Funny)
Official Clone Action Figures! (Score:4, Funny)
What I think is sad..... (Score:4, Flamebait)
The problem is most of the people bitching, IMO, were children when they saw the movie. They saw with a child's eyes and a child's viewpoint on life. The people complaining have lost the ability to view the series through that childish viewpoint and have attached a sense of reverance towards it that will certainly get me modded down for saying this.
I think that the people who retain the ability (or a part of it) to view things as a child are probably the ones who loved ST:TPM as I did and yes, they will even like Jar Jar.
The real problem... (Score:4, Interesting)
...is that George Lucas isn't fit to direct or be otherwise associated with any Star Wars film. Of the four that have been released, which one would most fans say had the best script, the best directing, the best overall tone, and the best all around story-telling? The Empire Strikes Back. Coincidentally, this is the film that Lucas had the least involvement with.
Who else was disappointed by the last two films, ROTJ and TPM? Hands up, I know you were. Ewoks? Jar Jar? With the three prequels ROTJ just doesn't hold up as the finisher. It took the novels (i.e., Zahn), to to that. Fire Lucas and put some Sci-Fi folks in charge, someone who hasn't tackled Star Wars. I fear George simply doesn't have it.
Why wasn't this posted earlier? (Score:5, Interesting)
"was among the onslaught of readers who submitted"
I know I submitted it nine hours ago, and it was almost immediately rejected. I figured someone else had already submitted it and that it would be up on the Frontpage almost immediately. Yet, hours go by, and still no news.
If anything would qualify as "news for nerds"--I figure this would. Why the delay?
Re:Why wasn't this posted earlier? (Score:3, Funny)
Microsoft Balmer dis'es linux! cool!, accept, next, "attack of the clones", wtf? reject, next...
marching clones. (Score:3, Funny)
Probably a fake (Score:4, Redundant)
My $.02.
Re:Probably a fake (Score:2)
Re:Probably a fake (Score:2, Funny)
The title really might be "Send in the Clones"?
Ratguy
Re:Probably a fake (Score:2)
When Clones Attack.
Actually I was under the impression... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or at least that's what I read in one of Shatner's "memoir" books... god only knows why I voluntarily READ that trash, one never knows how much is true and how much is 110% "Billshit"...
--=Major
That's what I said about "The Phantom Menace" (Score:3, Insightful)
Say it ain't so, George!
Star Wars all sucks, but it's hard to notice (Score:3, Insightful)
Lucas was a devotee of Joseph Campbell [jcf.org], the late comparative mythologist, and he used Campbell's work as a paint-by-number set for generating the plot of the first movie, by his own admission even if not in so many words. (By "first movie" I mean the first one that was actually made, now called Episode 4 but originally called just "Star Wars".) It's filled with motifs we expect to see in great stories, so our minds naturally associate it with being a great story. Aided by the admittedly competent cinematography, we are presented with the semblence or illusion of a good movie. This blinds us to the plot holes, the shallow characterization, the cliched dialog, and the shoddy acting that it typical of the series.
Plot Holes: Try, for example, to reconcile the timeline of ANH with what is now known to be required for even the beginning of Jedi training. Luke can't have had time to learn much on Tattooine, and he only has the time during the trip to Aldaraan for serious instruction. How long does this take? There's nothing in the movie to suggest that more than a day or two passes in transit, possibly less. And Luke's starting out as a teenager, when even Anakin at 8 (or is it 10? I forget) is thought by Yoda to be too old to begin.
Shallow Characterization: All the characters are very close to their archetypes. There are many assumptions we therefore automatically make about them, and Lucas doesn't have to do very much work at all to make them "pass" for deep ones. And he doesn't.
Cliched Dialog:"I can't believe he's gone." (Luke about Obi-Wan. He'd known him, what, a week or less?) "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." (Han about the Jedi. Substitute the appropriate weaponry and it could have come from a spaghetti western.) "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." (Leia to Tarkin. How many times has the plucky revolutionary said something similar to the dictator in numerous other settings?) Et cetera.
Shoddy acting: Alec Guinness' opinions on this are well known, but even so he and the other few competent actors deliver even the most hideously bad lines in a credible manner. Unfortunately, they don't have enough screen time to make much of a difference. Seen Mark Hamill in anything lately? There's a reason for that. He was bad enough in ANH, but he really showed he didn't have it in RoJ. When he tries to sound mystical he sounds stoned. For serenity we get vacancy. Instead of firm resolve we get a sort of vague assurance. Man he was bad. Carrie Fisher wasn't much better in the first movie, but at least she improved in the craft after a few years. Harrison Ford might have been good enough, but he failed to rise to the level of genius it would have taken to break Han out of the "rogue with a good heart underneath it all" mold.
If after thinking about it all in these terms I had any doubt about the quality of the story, I simply have to think about TPM. If Lucas ever had it, he's lost it. There just isn't any enthusiasm left any more. He should have been thinking of the people who'd been waiting almost 20 years for that film, not the 10 year olds the promotional tie-ins were designed for.
Or maybe he was, and this was the best he could do. Oh well. It could have been a lot better.
Re:Star Wars all sucks, but it's hard to notice (Score:2)
Interesting points, but I have to nit pick over a few of them.
Maybe Luke's midichlorian count is way over 20,000. (BTW, saying that makes me feel like a two bit whore. Thanks for raping my childhood memories, George).
And yet, strangely, we believe him. We feel it. Same for all the other cheesy dialogue, which fits the archetypes that you berate above so well that we can suspend our disbelief.
Uh, OK, wait a second. Have you been to see a Hollywood blockbuster recently? George showed us how to make a great films by just shooting scenes over and over and editing our the really bad bits, a tradition that's still going strong today.
Which is where we agree completely. All your points about episodes 4 through 6 are valid, but (apart from the latter parts of RotJ) the sheer verve makes up for the technical flaws. Episode 1 is just a cynical flashy quota piece, the cinematic equivelant of those 8 bit computer demos that were great technical showcases but ultimately uninvolving. In contrast, Episode 4 was Pong - only as good as it needed to be, but made with flair and gusto, and enjoyed as such.
Re:Star Wars all sucks, but it's hard to notice (Score:2)
Sure, I meant no disrespect to you, and I agree in substance with your points. My only bone of contention is that while Star Wars 4, 5 and the first half of 6 (pre re-master) are superficial, they don't necessarily become irritating with age. For me, at least, the magic is still there. It's remembered childhood magic, but it doesn't have Jar Jar screwing it up for me, like he'll do for the kiddies who squealed and giggled at him in Phantom Menace.
Incidentally, I didn't mean to imply that modern blockbusters are in any way worthy pieces of film making. Perish the thought. ;)
Re:Star Wars all sucks, but it's hard to notice (Score:3, Insightful)
Shallow Characterization: Hence the wide-spread appeal! People know who to love and who to hate, and Lucas backs this up. (People's emotions about the characters make them seem "deep" like you said.)
Cliched Dialog:"I can't believe he's gone." (Luke about Obi-Wan. He'd known him, what, a week or less?) "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." (Han about the Jedi. Substitute the appropriate weaponry and it could have come from a spaghetti western.) "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." (Leia to Tarkin. How many times has the plucky revolutionary said something similar to the dictator in numerous other settings?) Et cetera.
The lines might be cliches, but they're effective. To me, the movies weren't about romance. First and foremost they were action movies (with a smattering of several religions thrown in for flair and "depth").
Shoddy acting:By my count, only two actors were "stars" (Guinness and Ford, and Ford not until later). What were you expecting? I agree with the sentiment, but wasn't the first movie made with very low budget (I could be wrong, if I am forgive me) so they had to deal with bad acting, and had to keep the same people through the series.
Unfortunately the 10-year olds are where the money is. Not many people above 10 are going to get their Moms to buy figurines (of which Lucas gets a big cut). Nothing you can do...
Re:Star Wars all sucks, but it's hard to notice (Score:3, Insightful)
All these attributes served to make the original series stand out in all our minds, not to mention our young, impressionable minds at the time. (E.g., in my mind, Transformers will always be the greatest cartoon of all time, even though I can barely sit through the non-sensical episodes now.)
Re:Star Wars all sucks, but it's hard to notice (Score:3, Interesting)
Or even us 13 year olds. But it wasn't just the kids who were taken in. Sober, serious, adult critics were almost uniform in their praise. Harlan Ellison's was the sole, lonely critical voice to be raised against it, and even in his case his point wasn't so much that it sucked, but just that it wasn't quite as good as everyone else was saying. I suspect that even Lucas was surprised at the critics' reaction, but he knew good luck when he saw it and ran with it. Can't blame him for that, but I can blame him for pretending to have made something profound.
Re:Star Wars all sucks, but it's hard to notice (Score:3, Insightful)
I saw it at college age. I was disappointed because it was space opera rather than "hard" scifi of the 2001 variety. But at least it was fun. I've rented it several times, and I'll rent it again someday.
That Pathetic Movie wasn't fun, and I certainly won't be renting it.
The CBG said it best... (Score:5, Funny)
Top Ten Rejected Titles for Ep 2 (Score:3, Funny)
9. I Married a Dark Jedi
8. It Came from Tatooine
7. Die, Jedi, Die!
6. Will Success Spoil George Lucas?
5. Evil Sith 2: Army of Clones
4. Urotsukijedi
3. Pod Racer Summer
2. Midichlorians: the Awakening
And the number one rejected title for Star Wars Episode 2...
1. Surf Gungans Must Die
Re:Wish List for Scenes in Episode II (Score:2)
Or by the goatee - everyone knows the evil version always has a goatee
Re:You can never go home. (Score:3, Insightful)
Circa 1977:
Circa 1999:
Re:George Lucas is slowly losing his mind (Score:2)
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:3, Funny)
(ducking)
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:5, Funny)
Attack of the Killer Human Stem Cells.
Killer Klones from Outer Space
Episode II: Hype
Episode II: Luke's Dad Was a Whiner, Too
Episode II: Reporting is Pravda the Clone Attacking
Episode II: Bloodsucking Clones from Pittsburgh
Episode II: Plan Clone From Outer Space
Episode II: Clones Are EEEEEEVIL
Episode II: Lucas Must Die
Star Wars Episode 2: All your clone are belong to..
Send in the Clones!
Tears of a Clone
Jar-Jar's Big Adventure
Star Wars Episode II: The Second Episode
Star Wars II - Just like 83/84, only more missle based...
Star Wars II 1/2 - The smell of Lucas
Episode II, JarJar Binks, Return of The Kingfish
-= rei =-
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:4, Funny)
here's mine: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:here's another: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:4, Interesting)
Star Wars Episode II: A Darkened Heart.
Would be a good title given the primary story line in this edition (Anakin->Vader), and would be a good-natured poke at El Presidente.
Star Wars : the musical returns.... (Score:5, Funny)
Anakin: Quick, send in the clones
Obi-Wan: Don't bother, they're here
Lucas: Isn't it rich, isn't it queer, Losing my timing so late in my career
SW Fans: There ought to be clones
Lucas and Fox Studios:: Well maybe next year
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:5, Informative)
-jon
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:3, Interesting)
True; it was changed to prevent confusion with Star Trek II: The Revenge of Khan, which was in production at the same time. Upon discovering the similarity, both movie studios agreed to change their titles.
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:2)
The Criterion edition has all (many?) of the cut/edited scenes. Plus directors commentary on why the MPAA said to cut it, and why he thinks it makes the movie worse (in many cases seeming more violent). It is one of the first DVDs I bought.
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:3, Informative)
you still hoping for the Zahn novels too? (Score:2)
Re:Might this not be a ploy (Score:2)
J
Re:Appropriate (Score:2)
I would NOT put Joss Whedon on that list. I think he does a great job at being The Man and putting together a good show... but his dialogue is weak. Well, it's GOOD, actually... but I was noticing the other day that all the characters in his shows sound the same. The actors/acresses give some life and variation, of course, but imagine reading all the lines in a typical episode... everyone sounds the same. The same wisecracks, the same modes of speech...
YMMV, but man, I just can't put JW in the same league as KS and QT. The latter 2 have a serious gift for dialogue.
Re:More Anti-Cloning Propaganda (Score:2)
I've looked closely and the Bishop at the end bleeds red blood when tolchocked. Add to that his reaction to Ripley's impending suicide and the conclusion is pretty clear - he's a human working for the company.
Re:More than half way. (Score:2)
Re:sounds like an old song... (Score:2)
>
> Isn't it rich?
>We're a matched pair.
>Waving our lightsabers
>Around in the air.
>Attack of the clones.
>
>Lucas gone mad
>We've all been had
>After the first one was so
>Incredibly bad.
>Attack of the clones?
>Does he think that we're drones?
>
>Just when I'd stopped
>Trashing Jar-Jar
>Lucas is going
>Even further afar.
>Making a loser again
>With his usual flair
>Expecting big lines...
>They'll probably be there.
>
>Oh, what a farce.
>Our fault, we hear.
>We're supposed to like what he shows
>Year after year.
>And where are the clones?
>("Attack of the Clones"???)
>It's too late, they're here.
>
>Isn't it bad?
>Isn't it dull?
>And the worst part of all is that
>The theater'll be full.
>And so it's the clones...
>"Attack of the Clones"
>Will open next year.
><<<<
>
Re:The REAL trilogy is that everybody is waiting f (Score:3, Funny)
Peter Jackson! Ian McKellen! Christopher Lee! Hugo Weaving! Cate Blanchett! John Rhys-Davies! How could anyone not be waiting for this?
Assuming that Natalie Portman will be neither naked nor petrified, the only trump card that When Clones Attack has is Samuel L. Damn, they should have cast him in LotR, maybe as a badass orc or something. "Does Sauron look like a bitch?"
Clone wars - read Frank Herbert (Score:5, Interesting)
Read more Herbert - he was one of the most important minds in fiction all last century.
Parenthetically, Herbert followed this 20 years later with a trilogy: The Jesus Incident, The Lazarus Effect, and The Ascension Factor. It's really some of his best work, aside from the Dune books. Sadly, he died before he finished the last one, and his co-author for the series (Bill Ransom) finished it. Bill Ransom's a decent poet, but a lousy novelist, and The Ascension Factor was pretty weak. The first two are great though, and spend more time with the clone issue.
Re:OT: Why Real Clone Wars Aren't Gonna Happen (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Clone Wars? (Score:3, Informative)
I've got a better title (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Okay... (Score:4, Insightful)
Due to now being an uncle I saw the re-releases of the first 3 movies a few years ago, and they hold up pretty well, allowing for the shrinkage of theater screens and auditoriums in the interim. Then my nephew and I went to see Phantom Menace. He liked Jar-Jar just fine. I wanted to see Darth Maul grab his tongue and garrotte him with it. Slowly.
Jar-Jar aside, Phantom Menace was the quality I'd expect from a movie made by the same person that made the 1977 movie, but if he'd made it 25 years earlier, not 25 years later.
How old you were when you first saw any of the movies has nothing to do with the shortcomings of Phantom Menace.
Karma Suicide! (Score:3, Funny)
Natalie Portman stars in "Attack of the Hot Grits"
(Rated R for nudity)