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Sony Axes eVilla, Offers Refund 256

Posted by michael from the another-surfing-appliance-bites-the-dust dept.
Matey-O writes: "C-Net is reporting Sony's dropping of the BeOS powered eVilla internet appliance. Saying it wasn't performing as planned. Am I the only person who LIKES having a small internet terminal in the kitchen/family room?" Apparently, yes. I suspect that laptops with wireless cards are filling the role that web appliances were supposed to fill.
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Sony Axes eVilla, Offers Refund More

Sony Axes eVilla, Offers Refund

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  • "Oh and we've fired the marketing MORON who didn't realize that eVilla starts with EVIL."

  • Unsurprising (Score:2, Insightful)

    by icqqm ( 132707 )
    Am I the only one who thinks web appliances are too expensive, too cumbersome and too useless to do anything, even at this point in time? Maybe one day they might be useful, if they're cheap enough and have some actual use to them, but I don't see why I should spend $500 to connect my toaster to the WWW.

    • no kidding! (Score:2, Insightful)

      by CrudPuppy ( 33870 )
      $500 seems like quite a ripoff when I can meander
      over to egghead.com or any other auction house
      and get a nice HP refurb with great features for UNDER
      $500...

      I mean, I know HP's are not the greatest machine
      in the world, but they are still 1000 times more
      attractive and expandable to J. Random Buyer
      than an appliance.
    • Maybe one day they might be useful, if they're cheap enough and have some actual use to them, but I don't see why I should spend $500 to connect my toaster to the WWW

      Those aren't the kind of Internet Appliances being discussed in this article. The article references Sony's eVilla [evilla.com] which is similar to 3COM's Audrey [3com.com] and Netpliance's I-Opener [iopener.net]. Most people thought that cheap devices that offered only web browsing would be a hit with consumers who wouldn't then have to buy expensive and powerful machines just to use them as little more than dumb terminals.

      Unfortunately these devices were neither cheap enough nor did they offer enough functionality to entice consumers.
      • > Unfortunately these devices [eVilla, Audrey, I-Opener] were neither cheap enough nor did they offer enough functionality to entice consumers.

        And that's the answer.

        If it takes two years for a business plan to get off the ground, you can - as the guy you're replying to said - just buy a refurbed laptop for the same price. I love my I-Openers. But only because I spent enough time and money h4x0ring them into laptops. They're "mine" in the sense that I take pride-of-ownership and pride-of-craftsmanship in what I've managed to accomplish with them, but on a dollars-and-cents level, a used laptop would have performed as well, cost roughly the same amount in dollar terms, taken zero time to "build", been more compact (laptops have integrated keyboards, I-Openers don't), and would probably have had an active matrix screen.

        The other thing that changed with respect to the embedded/appliance sector is, of course, CPU pricing.

        When an embedded MIPS chip or a WinChip-C6 was $30 and the "real CPU" (say, P200 or faster) required for a comparable non-embedded solution was $200-300, the embedded solution made a lot of sense.

        But anyone starting today will be competing against 1G CPUs for $50 by the time their device hits the market. The "expensive and powerful machines" are far more powerful, but no more expensive, than the embedded solutions.

        Old-sk00l:
        Appliance: $200 in design/PCB-fabbing + $50 in parts. $250 + 6mos design.
        PC: $0 in design, $100 in parts, $500 in CPU/RAM. Ouch, $600. Go embedded.

        New-sk00l:
        Appliance: $200 in design/PCB-fabbing + $50 in parts. Still $250 +6mos to design.
        PC: $0 in design, $100 in parts, $100 in CPU/RAM. Wow! $200! Cheaper, and available now.

  • this not only affects these internet appliances, but computer desk and chair manufacturers as well. I have this nice desk and ergonomic chair in my office, but I -never- sit there because I can sit on the La-Z-Boy with my wireless laptop. When my wife started law school, I made sure she had a nice desk of her own to sit at with her laptop and books. Of course she has a wireless card now also and there is competition at the La-Z-Boy.
    • I have this nice desk and ergonomic chair in my office, but I -never- sit there because I can sit on the La-Z-Boy with my wireless laptop.


      Why is this moderated "Offtopic"? Michael [mailto] said "I suspect that laptops with wireless cards are filling the role that web appliances were supposed to fill." frknfrk [mailto] responded directly to that statement, and some bozo calls it "Offtopic." Sheesh! I was going to say much the same thing, that my wife and I are using 266MHz PIII IBM laptops that we got for about $500 each on eBay to do anything we could do with an eVilla, but I guess I'd better not or I might get flamed! <asbestos suit> OK, flame away!

  • well now....

  • Yes... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by cavemanf16 ( 303184 )
    I suspect that laptops with wireless cards are filling the role that web appliances were supposed to fill.

    My friend's parents have a laptop w/ dialup in the kitchen, my roommate has one in his room/or wherever he is in the apt, and I would have one too if I wasn't so broke. Heck, you can probably pick up an old 486 or Pentium laptop for the same amount as a bulky monitor/keyboard/mouse 'internet appliance' would cost these days.

    • I like old 486's. No fan and quit power supply makes a nice quit box. With a sound board, it's a stereo. With a SCSI, it's whatever. With a nicer machine serving in another room, a 486 can be a practical satilite apliance.

      The future, however, belongs to devices like the agenda [agendacomputing.com]. Why bother with a big old box?

    • . Heck, you can probably pick up an old 486 or Pentium laptop for the same amount as a bulky monitor/keyboard/mouse 'internet appliance' would cost these days.

      Much, much cheaper [ebay.com].

  • Internet and Appliance Integration (Score:4, Insightful)

    by idonotexist ( 450877 ) on Thursday August 30, 2001 @11:39AM (#2235227)
    The failure of the iOpener (NetAppliance) demonstrated the apparent coming of this failure. I think a strategy, arguable, more plausible and not yet tried is the integration of Internet communication with appliances. For instance, my refrig should 'read' the goods I place into the refrig and allow me to instantly generate a grocery list or track the age of foods, produce and beer (beer must be fresh). The same integration could be pursued with electricity usage, TV, cat litter boxes, aquariums and closets so we may more efficiently and better go about our lives :).
    • The same integration could be pursued with electricity usage, TV, cat litter boxes, aquariums and closets so we may more efficiently and better go about our lives

      Uh... We've got litter boxes covered:

      http://www.members.accessus.net/~dejay/archive.htm [accessus.net]
    • Well - that an the fact that alot of us got the IOpener for $100 and put Linux on it. My only problem has been the lack of a wireless enet connection on such things. Well - now with the availability of a Linksys 802.11b bridge I can deploy wired enet up-stairs I'll be able to deploy the IOpener in my bedroom as planned and run my son's computer system in his bedroom off of our high-speed internet connection down-stairs.

      80211b might be the thing that makes these things more useful.
    • Yes! And after the fridge makes that shopping list, I should be able to point my Palm (or Visor) at it, download the list, take it to the grocery store and when I walk in the door, download a map of the store with all of the products that I need highlighted. Integration would be freakin sweet!

      • Re:Internet and Appliance Integration (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Speare ( 84249 ) on Thursday August 30, 2001 @12:01PM (#2235358) Homepage Journal

        And after the fridge makes that shopping list, I should be able to point my Palm (or Visor) at it, download the list, take it to the grocery store and when I walk in the door, download a map of the store with all of the products that I need highlighted.

        I agree that making devices work together is useful, but what's the fascination with automatic refrigerator/store interaction?

        Who is automating what, in your scenario? The refrigerator is telling you what's its missing, the store is telling you where to go, the coupons are telling you what to buy. Am I the robot that serves the needs of the marketers, the store and the refrigerator?

        The more you automate, the more complicated the rest of your life will be. Remove the easy tasks, and all you're left with are the hard ones. More stress, not less.

        • It's a convenience. Not everyone will be forced into using these systems -- you can make the same argument for any technical innovation. Here's the way I look at it: when I'm out shopping and see a product I like, I usually whip out my Palm, jot down the details and take it home to get the cost/value analysis by looking it up on the web. Wouldn't it be great to go out and get all that info just by pointing the Palm device at a UPC code?

          Oh...and we woulnd't be robots...we're the ones consuming the food. We decide what we eat and when still. But when I go for that jar of pickles and realize that I forgot to write that down on my shopping list, I tend to get a wee bit irritated.

        • but what's the fascination with automatic refrigerator/store interaction?

          Because it's about the only slightly interesting idea for turning an appliance into an "Appliance" that anybody has come up with.

          Seriously, this might be good for staples, but what other good could come of it? Other than things like eggs, milk, cheese, butter, and beer, the things in my refrigerator where either purchased for a particular recipe, or are leftovers.

          I know when I need beer.
      • wait a minute. the refridgerator should just email walmart and tell them to send over more beer...uhm food.

    • For instance, my refrig should 'read' the goods I place into the refrig and allow me to instantly generate a grocery list or track the age of foods, produce and beer (beer must be fresh).

      Try to write a program to do this.
      My fridge is dynamic. I never eat the same thing everyday (or ever every week). So the only thing my fridge could track would be "Milk". Seeing that I'm observant, I know when I'm running low, and get some on the way home from work.
      The only way for this idea to really work is maybe if I program "reciepies to cook in the future", it knows what I need for those reciepies, then writes the list. But why does my fridge even need to know when I can write that program on my puter?

      Next question. Why does it need an internet connection? Only thing I can think of is that it automatically orders the milk to be delievered when I run low. I see two problems. This makes the milk more expensive, and does the ISP cost counteract the leisure of "always having a good supply of milk"??
    • This post is *not* insightful... he just as read Nick Negroponte's books or heard him speak. This is his ideas almost word for word....

    • Ummm, now, I don't know about you.. but this doesn't strike me as handy. It strikes me as a pain in the posterior. Why do I want my fridge to be connected to the interenet? That'll inflate the cost of the appliance at least $100, and it will likely get out of sync with the products I buy - I'm sure as hell not going to waste time tracking food. I buy whatever suits my fancy at the time, toss it in the fridge, and chuck it when it starts getting nasty. End of story.

      Internet appliances are all going to flop on their ass. Hell, set-top units are having a pretty tough go of it. It's the PITA factor. If I want internet in the kitchen or bathroom, I'll get a discount notebook and 802.11, problem solved. No subscriptions required, even.

      If it's a pain in the ass for me, your average 5-cpu linux hippie with goatee, the odds of a soccer mom buying one of these are slightly below those of Aimee Sweet deciding the pr0n business doesn't pay good enough and moving into VLSI engineering.

    • All of the people who think it's a good idea to have the fridge monitor contents and tell you when you need something (and there seem to be many people who think this) are just crazy. The simple task of just knowing what is in your fridge is nigh impossible - things can be hidden, covered in sauces that have leaked from shelves above, be specalty items there is no way to know about. The effort requored to even keep a good list of 50% of the contents would be so expensive it would never be mass market.

      What would be useful I think is to make use of telepresence - some sort of fridge cam you could manipulate from work to see if you have some key ingredients.

      The other option I can see is to have some sort of "connected" containers or weight-sensitive platforms - since no-one can seem to think of anything but milk or soda/beer to keep track of, why not just have a milk container that could send out a signal when it was low. Much easier than having the fridge keep track of whatever weird container you stuck in and have to use some AI driven chemical sampler to know it is "Milk".

      Similarily, a weight sensitive platform could tell how many soda cans were stacked on top and report that.

      Sounds like a good use for Bluetooth to me.
      • ..except almost everything I put in my fridge these days has a UPC code on it (even some produce now). Seems like a possibility to have a barcode scanner in the door or something that you could waive items past as you load the fridge after your trip to the market. I don't expect my fridge to x-ray itself to determine what is hiding in the crisper.

        I would love to be able to know when the last time a gallon jug of milk was scanned in (my family consumes bovine lactate products at a fairly constant rate, so knowing that it has been 6 days since the last replentishment would be enough for me to stop on the way home to pick up more. I hate coming home and hearing "oh, we're out of milk, can you run out later and pick some up?")
        • Yes, I had thought of that - but do you REALLY want to remember to scan everything you put in the fridge? How would it know when the items were really consumed - would you have to remember to scan the empty container before you threw it out?

          I don't think you could rely on any kind of time based system as invariably you'd be getting milk before you needed it (which the time based experation might label as gone before you even opened it!) or you might make something with a lot of milk in it and run out days early. Not to mention that it has to be able to index against all of the store and generic brands of X to know that what you scanned really was a container of milk. Some families have a fairly constant rate of consumption but even then I'll bet you'd be off one way or the other - give it a try sometime, mark on a post-it on the door when you buy the milk and then see if you really do have a constant rate of use. Not to mention that if you really DO have a constant rate of milk consumption, why not just put a reminder in your organizer for a few days hence when you buy the milk? Just as easy as scanning it in...

          As I said before, why not just a special container that knows when it's near empty? All of these conditions (constant rate of consumption, consistent barcodes [assuming you mostly buy the same brand of milk which is probably true]) really apply only to milk. I'd like a container I could label as holding any liquid with a simple "reset" button for when I refill it and a signal that it had fallen below a certain amount. Much simpler and more practical, all you have to do is fill it.

          I know a lot of people who empty milk into other containers anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a switch - I really don't think people would buy into the concept of having to hand-scan everything that goes in the fridge (if you put 24 sodas in the fridge, are you going to scan them one by one - or add a keypad to key in qty after a scan?). What would you do with produce?

          If you really want to try the scanner system, just set up a cuecat with a laptop connected via wireless ethernet by the fridge, and then explain to your family about how all milk going into the fridge must be scanned. Good luck!

      • What would be useful I think is to make use of telepresence - some sort of fridge cam you could manipulate from work to see if you have some key ingredients.

        Hey, I have one of these! It's called "House Wife 1.0." I just call up and ask it anything. 9 out of 10 times I get a straight answer. I still have no idea how the damn thing works, though.

        Unfortunately, it was considerably expensive, and requires a monthly subscription fee consisting of roughly 80% of my salary...

  • Web appliances aren't dead... (Score:4)

    by seldolivaw ( 179178 ) <me.seldo@com> on Thursday August 30, 2001 @11:41AM (#2235247) Homepage
    Apparently, yes. I suspect that laptops with
    wireless cards are filling the role that web
    appliances were supposed to fill.

    Really? I don't. People who buy web appliances are people who don't like complicated computers, not people who want access in their kitchen. Web appliances are a good idea, but they are hindered by the way websites all assume you use a computer: and once you've loaded your web appliance with a full keyboard and all the other bits and bobs you need to effectively utilise a PC-optimised site, you may as well be using a computer anyway.

    I'm not sure what the solution is, though -- you could simplify the device, but that would limit its functionality. Or you could redesign web pages, but thats impractical.

    • Re:Web appliances aren't dead... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by scenic ( 4226 ) <sujal.sujal@net> on Thursday August 30, 2001 @11:58AM (#2235343) Homepage Journal
      Really? I don't. People who buy web appliances are people who don't like complicated computers, not people who want access in their kitchen. Web appliances are a good idea, but they are hindered by the way websites all assume you use a computer: and once you've loaded your web appliance with a full keyboard and all the other bits and bobs you need to effectively utilise a PC-optimised site, you may as well be using a computer anyway.

      I disagree with part of what you're saying. The issue isn't the current state of web design, it's the cost and infrastructure. The eVilla failed in part because it required an ISP account with some Sony-affiliated ISP... I looked into buying one to hook into my home network and was turned off by that single requirement.

      Companies that want to play in this space need to start from the assumption that everyone has broadband, and realize that they're playing in the market of those with broadband. This is because folks with broadband are the ones who start really using the computer as an integrated part of their lives, simply because their connection is always on.

      Look at the offerings by Linksys, 3Com, and Orinoco/Lucent. They all have a variety of hub/firewall/residential gateway products out and available. Which means that for an appliance to be successful, it needs to exist with that infrastructure. The eVilla did NOT coexist with that infrastructure at all, which meant it was aimed at a different market.

      If you follow the tack I'm taking above, the larger problem is one of cost. eVilla seemed to me to be aimed at those folks without a PC. The points mentioned by others make the problem with this market choice pretty clear: who's going to pay retail for an "appliance" when they can have a "full-fledged computer" (the actual real similarities and differences matter less than perception...). However, I wanted one for my living room that I could flip on like my palm (instant on, check email, shut off) or dreamcast that integrated into my home network. eVilla, IIRC, doesn't have an ethernet jack, and (though I'm not certain about this) doesn't have any expansion that could take a 802.11b card/adapter, either.

      Since the eVilla and Audrey all retail for close to the price of a low end computer, it just doesn't make much sense to buy them. If they can drop the retail price to that of a DVD player or VCR, they'll do really well. $100 for an appliance and I might be there.

      To go back to your point, it's not about the web content... though it's important, you can check your Hotmail/Netscape Webmail/whatever with most any browser, and read almost all the major sites with any browser out there (with a good experience)... I should know... I use Opera, Mozilla, and Netscape 4.76 on my various Linux boxen, and there are very few sites that things don't work well (and those have been pretty easily corrected with a polite email to the webmaster).

      Sujal

    • People who buy web appliances are people who don't like complicated computers,

      I don't see how you can quantify anything about people who buy web appliances - Audrey and eVilla hardly sold at all.

      More likely they were just gadget freaks who wanted to play with a new toy. I highly doubt these products ever penetrated to the level of mainstream consumers.

  • So my question is, are these still going to be available for purchase, and hopefully at a discount? I tried to go to the site, and the "Buy Now" link is dead.

    If these go on sale at anything like a reasonable price (I wasn't willing to pay $499), I'd be all over buying a few of these to sprinkle around the house.

    While I could probably go just as cheap with a refurb. PC and Linux, the compact nature of these devices is *so* appealing for having in the kitchen, bedroom, guestroom, etc. for quick email, surfing, reference...

    Anyone know where I can snag one (or three) of these cheap??
  • Has anyone actually used this thing? I saw it at Fry's and it looked pretty slick. Seems to me that with modem-only internet access it simply wasn't flexible enough. I would have loved to try one just to check out BeIA, but that didn't seem worth blowing the money on.

    I'm glad Palm bought Be before this happened. No doubt this explains the low price, since I'm sure Be knew what was going on.

    Has anyone here actually used it? I'd be curious to hear more about it from an actual user.

    D
    • Having one in the kitchen would be useless in my opinion. We've been testing them for our office (don't ask, we just did :) ) and web surfing is all. No word processing, calculator, just web. The email is only through online (hotmail, yahoo, etc.) Personally, if I wanted something to look pretty, I'd buy a Mac. They're smaller and probably weigh less. Drop the price on the eVilla to less than $150, then I may be interested.

  • BEIA not BEOS (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Actually it was, BEIA not BEOS, same company just 7meg version of the os not the full bore nt strenth edition.

    Also from what I hear it was due to a dial-up connection instead of the network connection on the back of the machine. One of the us hotel chains was selling it for other hotels with high speed and it seemed that its speed was no problem.

  • iCEBOX may be your answer (Score:4, Informative)

    by dmccarty ( 152630 ) on Thursday August 30, 2001 @11:44AM (#2235263)
    Am I the only person who LIKES having a small internet terminal in the kitchen/family room?

    If you really mean that, and you're not opposed to spending a lot of money for one, check out the iCEBOX. There are two versions, the CounterTop [cmiworldwide.com] and the FlipScreen [cmiworldwide.com].

    USA Today wrote a review of the unit here [usatoday.com].

    • The FlipScreen version looks almost perfect. Too bad there's no prices/purchase options.
      There's also no mention of what hardware/software it runs.
      The weight listed(40lbs.) seems a bit worrysome as well.
      Definitely something worth watching, though.
  • If I wanted a terminal in my living room, I'd mount a moniter, keyboard, & mouse to an old 300MHz processor to a small little linux box with KDE & Konqueror on it.

    You can hide it all in a cabinet, run RJ45 under the carpet to it, making it a nice little kiosk, and all that would still be less than a laptop with a wireless connection....

    Maybe even put in a touchscreen monitor instead of the keyboard & mouse.... hmmmmm....
  • eVilla was featured in the Internet appliance panel at SIGGRAPH. It was considered one of the products of the future... doesn't look like that now. It's cost was amazing high and never had a chance to get to a level where a normal guy could get one.

    Of course, it looked like a big old Mac classic. If you want a quick terminal in your kitchen, but a Mac Classic from your local University surplus auction, put Open Transport and NSCA Telnet on it, and you can get your e-mail. There are other small computers you can get to do the same thing without the HUGE cost.

    Anyway... just a highlight of some of the problems here: the Microsoft guy on this SIGGRAPH panel said something that caused me to have to walk outside and laugh: "The PC has spoiled consumers... we must get them used to paying on a subscription basis and paying more." That's just great. This guy was on the XBox team... same M$ strategy on every device!!

    Also.. this panel didn't mention Linux once... interesting since it's such a major player. Maybe they'll choose a linux appliance over something that they have to subscribe to every month...

  • Phase 1) Get one, cheap.

    Phase 2) Scratch the "la" off of the name.

    Phase 3) BOMBER PHATZ.
  • Hopefully the continuing bad news for these types of Internet appliances doesn't kill any plans for wireless webpads. There is quite a difference between the two, although I'm afraid that the webpad folks will be hesitant to gamble on their products after seeing the failure of the iOpener and eVilla. I'd much prefer a touchscreen webpad to an appliance of even to a laptop for casual Internet activities from the living room if the price was right. But considering that some of the prices I've seen for these webpads are equal to and in many cases higher than the price of a decent webpad, I'll continue to use my low-end, wireless laptop in my living room to connect to my Citrix server in the basement.
  • What I would like to see is the Sybian [sybian.com] become an Internet ready device. This way I can sit at my computer fragging some lamerz or reading /. while controlling the sybian which is in the bedroom with the lady friend!! It would be the best of both worlds! No more, "Honey! Quit Half Life and get in here and satisfy me!"

    Or maybe the Venus 2000 [sybian.com] could be hooked up to the computer and be set to "activate" when you frag someone or get modded up, that would add a whole new dimension to gaming and reading the latest news for nerds. Then it really would be 'News for Nerds, Stuff That Splatters"

    You would think since more innovations have come(pun intended) about because people want faster and better quality pr0n that they would have this already. I propose someone write some quality open-source software for the Sybian, maybe even provide email and instant messaging ability in case the lady wants to chat while "relaxing."

    • > What I would like to see is the Sybian [sybian.com] become an Internet ready device.

      ROFLMAO!

      (And when implemented, my SO would be ROFLHCO? ;)

      Actually, what you suggest would be a majorly cool hack. Sounds like all you'd have to do is hook up a PIC to the input device on the Syb, and then use the parallel port (trivial to build, just 8 TTL latches on the PP's data lines - this hardware could be built in an afternoon on a RatShack breadboard for about $5.00) or a USB port (harder/more expensive), then control with software.

      Hook that up to the obligatory webcam and some sort of plug-in for an IM client, and voila, no more worries about sex over long-distance relationships.

      The real problem is that gadgets like the Sybian are large, bulky, and people are prudish about ordering such things.

      > No more, "Honey! Quit Half Life and get in here and satisfy me!"

      It's gotta be said. "Sybz with gibz!"

  • I want my freaking webpad!!! I too want to look like Jean-Luc Picard with my trusty cyber-clipboard. I want to surf while walking down the street, bumping into mundane non-technoweenies. Give me webpad or give me death!

    Seriously though, when the heck are the webpads/tablet PC's coming out. I've only been seeing prototypes for the last 3 or 4 years. Anyone have one?
    • ViewSonic [viewsonic.com] is releasing the ViewPad 100 [viewsonic.com]. Personally, this one makes me kinda moist, although I really want more than a PDA ...
    • Fujitsu has been making them for years. You can see them in all their glory on www.fujitsu.com. These puppies are near star trek like in their geekness, but alas, they are expensive because they are a full powered PC.
    • And while it's nice, the lack of a keyboard is more of a drawback than you'd expect. A downright pain, in fact.

      I mainly bought it to use as a drawing tablet, and for that it seems to suffice.

      Wireless internet connectivity would be neat, but it's a battery killer (unless I got a cable that would run to a cellphone, hmm...).

      Look at http://www.linux-hacker.net [linux-hacker.net] for more details.

      Jon Acheson
  • Be stopped development of BeOS and concentrated on BeIA. The only hardware BeIA runs on is the eVilla, which is history, and Palm has stopped development of BeIA. Exactly what did Palm pay $10 million for?
  • I've had the laptop in the LR with both wireless and wired NICs for many years now. It works, but it's not exactly ideal. You always have at least the power cord to drag around. Since wireless doesn't work for me (clashes with my 2.4 GHz DECT phone which there's no way I'm getting rid of), I also have to drag the damn CAT5 cable around. Plus the L-form factor of the laptop, which isn't exactly ergonomic.

    What I'd like is a letter-size webpad with a touchscreen, a whopping battery (maybe the whole back a 1/2 inch Zinc-air battery) and 802.11a networking. The screen could be color, but I'd put up with a reflective monochrome job if it seriously extended battery life and was readable enough. The form factor and weight should be such that I can use it heads-up while lying on the couch. I'd really like the whole thing to work like my Pilot: pick it up, turn it on, and it's on instantly where you last left off. Oh, and please leave out any frills (multimedia and crap like that), make it $200 to $300, so I can have several.
    • I use many 2.4Ghz devices at the same time. Have you actually tried to use WLAN stuff and it didn't work or are you going on the idea that they will conflict? Any of the current WAPs will let you set and lock a channel in the 2.4Ghz range to talk on.

      Getting rid of cables all over the place is one of the best things to happen in a long time to computers.
      • > Have you actually tried to use WLAN stuff and it didn't work [...] ?

        Yes, though it's been pre-802.11b stuff. As soon as I turn the phone base station on (don't even have to be talking on the phone), my packet loss on the WLAN shoots up. I've also read about bad experiences from others with 802.11, so I've held off. My phone is a Siemens Gigaset. If you have experiences to the contrary, let me know.
        • I use 802.11 in one of the worst environments possible and it works well throughout my entire apartment.

          I have concrete walls with a metal mesh in them. There are also metal meshes between the floors and the ceiling. I also live in downtown SF which has much interference. In addition I have a Panasonic 2.4ghz phone. Everything plays well together and I have WLAN connectivity throughout my apartment and up 40 feet outside of it. The only tricky part was placement of the WAP and making sure the Gigahertz phone and the WLAN were set to channels far apart.

          WAP placement is extremely important. Make sure to get it high and take into account the walls throughout.
          • Isn't the Panasonic analog though? The Gigaset is FHSS, though with probably fewer (and wider) channels. I haven't really read up on DECT that much, but I think it's pretty similar to 802.11 technology, so the two would be expected to interfere with each other like hell.

            Thanks for your input, though. I might just get some 802.11 cards anyway and simply return them if they don't work out.
  • Indeed, Internet appliances dont' stand a chance against the almighty Minitel.
  • What a coincidence, I just read in PC Magazine how this was a POS. True, it had USB and such but it ran Opera (shudder), it used BeIA, had a mere 56K Modem, wouldn't save MP3's, can't run anything Shockwave or Windows Media, etc. They gave it one star. No woner Sony killed it.


    Schnapple

  • I wonder if the fact that Palm is buying BeOS [slashdot.org] has anything to do with the fact that Sony is dropping BeOS?
  • Lets see....


    Netpliance I-opener

    MSN companion

    Gateway Connected Touchpad

    E-Pods I

    3com Audrey

    Sony E-villa


    Id say that pretty much sums up the success record of Internet appliances. Score one more for the The I-Appliance BBS [http]
  • I suspect that laptops with wireless cards are filling the role that web appliances were supposed to fill.

    Which is fine for me, but it doesn't work for my mother-in-law. I'd really like to get her email, but the appliances available either 1) go out of business in nothing flat, 2) charge too much for internet access, or 3) don't have access in her area (fairly rural downstate IL).

    I am still waiting for one that's stable long enough to be comfortable with....

    I'm already doing remote Windoze administration for my dad (don't even suggest Linux, that's like suggesting I get him an indy car to drive to the store in), and I don't want to be doing it for my in-laws too....

  • Its still too early for internet appliances. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Shivetya ( 243324 ) on Thursday August 30, 2001 @12:03PM (#2235369) Homepage Journal
    They need to be built around "casual" and "passing" usuage. What I mean is, I don't need some computer looking thing in my living room or kitchen (hell, I got a microwave for that).

    What I would like to see is something that is wall mounted ala flat panel that I can talk and touch. That technology isn't here yet, or that of which is is too expensive to do.

    Regardless, it needs to be unobtrusive (and being able to wall mount it helps, but flat table/desk mounting would be good, and have speech recognition and be instantly ready.

    Right now they keep trying to use that damn computer layout everyone already has. Let alone the costs are silly
    • so you need a Microwave with a touch screen on the door. hhmmmm

    • AOL/Gateway/Transmeta have already built such a device:

      See links:

      AOL's page [aol.com]

      CNet Article [cnet.com].

      In all the pictures they show it as a countertop item, but in the original press-release video they showed it wall-mounted.

      Again, the pricing (at $599) and the ISP restrictions (AOL only) kill any chance of success for this device...

    • What I would like to see is something that is wall mounted ala flat panel that I can talk and touch.

      Hmmm. Why mount it to anything? I'd much rather have a webpad (touchscreen LCD, 802.11b), and 3 years down the road a newer one with voice recognition. And then 3 years further on, an IA with no LCD, but an option to beam the image into my retina so that it appears the screen floats in front of my face, and it only comes up when I tell it.

      Most of this tech is here, but is rough and cost prohibitive.

      But it is definitely NOT too early for a killer IA -- the webpad. CmdrTaco thinks laptops with wireless ethernet are cool. Well rip the keyboard off, add a touchscreen LCD, and a couple of USB ports for add-ons, and you've got a killer net appliance.
  • I think Palm should continue the BEIA. Find a way to port it to a Color Palm. They should add a keyboard and mouse and sell it as an internent appliance for about $200. I would buy that.
    • Don't expect to see BeIA running on a Color Palm as you know them, They do not have the processing power.


      I hope they use it on their StrongARM based Palms after making appropriate changes to use it on a hand-held device.


      It will be interesting to see.

  • One of the biggest reasons many of these things bombed is that you had to subscribe to a proprietary service to use them. You can't bring your own ISP, you have to use MSN, AOL, etc. Subscribing to an additional service is no big deal if you live in an area with local dialup for that service, but in rural communities like mine even AOL and WebTV are long distance so at best you have to pay ISP charges, then an additional amount to use the service packaged with the device. At worst, you pay long distance for the privilege of getting email on the thing.

    The people who would actually consider buying something like this probably want a bit more versatility. I desperately want a web appliance I can take around my apartment with me, but I want it to be configurable for my own internet service.

    As I said in another comment, so far ViewSonic seems to have the closest thing to what I am looking for: http://www.viewsonic.com/products/viewpad100.cfm [viewsonic.com].

  • People don't WANT this crap.. (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Not everyone wants to check their email from the kitchen. Not everyone wants to check their email 10 times a day. This crap is based on assumptions about peoples comings and goings and daily activity and obviously these assumptions are wrong.

    The idea of doing anything from one of these terminals is dumb. Why the hell would anyone click around on an expensive, clunky system with a small screen when you can walk your lazy ass down the hall to your computer and sit down in front of a large comfotable screen.

    These things just don't make any sense yet.

  • Duh (Score:2)

    by fobbman ( 131816 )

    "Am I the only person who LIKES having a small internet terminal in the kitchen/family room?"

    I'm sorry, but why would you need an Internet terminal in the kitchen when you shelled out $100 for a refridgerator next to your main workstation?

    Hell, when my daughter was in the hospital awhile back I noticed that they had a toilet in the room itself that retracted into a cupboard! That took care of my last reason for leaving my computer!

  • Actually, I think the failure of these devices is more a product of fubared marketing and lack of business vision than lack of consumer need.

    Many if not all of these devices were sold with mandatory sign-up packages, such as the iPaq's original deal where you got the device essentially "free"--IF you signed up for MSN's ridiculously priced service.

    The problem is that most of the early adopters for these kinds of devices already have an ISP, so the suposed "savings" were non-existent and the product ended up, in fact, being overpriced and underfeatured.

    The second problem is that they viewed their business as selling the razors for a profit to recoup their initial R&D (which is really corp-speak for cutting their losses right from the start, because the muc-a-mucks never really believed they would sell enough of these to make a difference), when they should have been giving the razors away and selling razorblades.

    If there was compelling content along with genuinely useful utilities that were offered through an appliance that weren't easily or as conveniently available elsewhere, people would have been hooked. If the model were to make money off a subscription for services, rather than a co-marketing deal to push a useless log-on service, and if the companies were willing to stick with it for the long haul and put some actual resources behind it, it would work. Microsoft often wins simply because they don't give up when v.1 of their products fail miserably.

    Too much of shareholder-appeasement corporate culture today seeks the quick cheap hit rather than the long-term bonanza.

    Ultimately, the problem is that, like so many technology products, these were created to meet a vendor's need rather than the consumer's.

    My bet is that utility companies will be the ones to get this right.

  • What I want (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Eric Seppanen ( 79060 ) on Thursday August 30, 2001 @12:55PM (#2235581)
    I have three computers (OK, three that run) already. I don't need another computer. But I would like something that I could leave in my living room that:
    • Doesn't have loud cooling fans
    • Doesn't have noisy disks
    • Can be powered off at any time and powers up in seconds
    • Can talk TCP/IP over ethernet to my other machines
    • Is compact enough that I can leave it on a corner table
    • Runs free software (without a month of hacking on my part) so I know I'm not getting locked in to whatever the manufacturer wants to force on me in the future
    Things like wireless networking, flat screen, wireless keyboard, TV-video outputs are cool, but they should be options. I'd really like to buy a bare-bones network computer.

    I don't need a killer CPU or video chip; I'm not going to play Quake3 on the thing. I just want to be able to surf, check mail, stuff like that.

    Somebody's got to be able to create a flash-memory based laptop-sized terminal machine with the power of, say, a Celeron 300, for a pretty low price. But mostly what I see are underpowered machines that won't run commodity OSes, and overpowered, overpriced machines that seem to try and replace PCs. Nothing in between.

    • Re:What I want (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Accipiter ( 8228 )
      How about one of these [ebay.com]?

      There are no loud fans and no loud disks. Power-up is almost instant. Full networking support is available, is tremendously compact (while still having a large, readable display), and it has an available Linux Port [linux-vr.org].
      • What I've noticed from the Clios we have here at work: great form factor, slow, poor screen, slow, tiny (but somewhat useable) keyboard and slow.

        Did I mention that they were slow? One of the professors here tried using them in class to pull up images on web pages: they were too slow rendering the pictures to be of use. Simple web pages take a long time, complex ones take longer.

        My iPaq is faster, and has a better (if smaller) screen. Now if only someone would come out with a better machine in that form factor: the case design is just awesome.

        Eric

      • It won't do Flash.
        It won't do RealPlayer.
        It won't do Quicktime.

        The right x86 configuration will- and I don't mean a Windows based box. A PPC might fill the bill, but I can't see MacOS 9 or 10 sitting in a decent sized flash.
    • You could also get most of this with an iMac. Buy a used one, drop your favorite PPC Linux distro on it, and soup it up with as much RAM as you can afford. A more recent iMac will even support their wireless Airport cards, which may or may not be Linux-accessible by this time, and will give you all the benefits of fanless computing.

      As for TV-output options: your TV's resolution is probably too low. Wait for HDTV displays to come down, and for computers to ship from the manufacturer with interfaces for them. (I look forward to adding an old Intel box to my living room as an MP3 jukebox when that happens.)
      • Even a used iMac is awfully expensive to just browse the web and look at some email. He could probably get a nice quiet, underpowered, used x86 laptop a lot cheaper, and it would take up less space, and seemingly suit his needs.
        • Heck, I'm willing to sell my underpowered, used PowerBook 1400 to someone who wants a web browsing computer. It's been upgraded to 40MB of RAM, a 250MHz G3, a 3GB hard drive, and 10Base-T and 802.11b PC Cards. These aren't exactly killer specs, but they were state of the art in 1997 ;-)


          I want to buy an iBook, but can't justify having two laptops, and the damn PowerBook just won't die, despite being knocked off the coffee table twice in the last six months (the antenna part of the case on the wireless PC card is getting beat all to hell, though). I use the PowerBook as a web pad all the time. The only problems it has are 20 minute battery life (because the battery is 3 years old and it's trying to power a ton more hardware than it was originally designed to power) and it usually crashes when it tries to wake up from sleep (I think this is due to the power drawn by the wireless card, upgraded CPU, upgraded hard drive, and upgraded RAM. If I pull the wireless card, the problem goes away, but the laptop is virtually useless to me).


          As a side note in the net appliance category, I use the PowerBook as an MP3 player for my stereo, too. I've got about 100 of my CDs ripped on my iMac. The iMac's hard drive is shared via 802.11b, and iTunes running on the PowerBook is able to play MP3s with nary a skip. Just plug the audio out of the PowerBook into the stereo, and I've got a nice stereo component.


          -jon

    • I would love to see a unit with the specs that you mention but I would add:


      1) Enough processing power (CPU and video) to handle DivX ;-) and SVCD files.

      2) Some expansion (1 PCI or ISA slot) for a little customization. For example, I would like to get a small unit to hookup to my digital piano via MIDI. A laptop wouldn't do since the MIDI voices that are on typical laptops are good enough.

      3) Finally, flat screen is a must for me. I don't want a bulky monitor in my entertainment center or on top of my digital piano.
  • Palm [palm.com] has no plan to continue development of BeIA [be.com] as reported by cnet [cnet.com]
  • would
    (1) have something like a 486 single-board computer mounted in a flat-panel display;
    (2) be able to boot from ethernet via an optional ethernet card;
    (3) be able to boot from optional CD or HD.
    (4) use standard wireless keyboard and mouse
    (5) be reasonably cheap.


    What's reasonably cheap? Since it's INSIDE a flat panel, it would be worth more to me than a standard computer plus monitor. It would FIT! I could wall mount one in the living room to control music, etc, and have a way to check email (if I sat quite nearby...).

    Why a 486? cheap, low-power so no fan, and quiet.

    I think that if it were priced in the $400 to $500 range for the panel with one option (ethernet or HD) and keyboard, it would sell quite a few units.

  • Did it ever occur to anyone that the role ISN'T being filled becouse, it's simply not THERE yet?

    Personally, being an engineer and a technoweenie, I like the idea, but many out there just look at me and kinda say 'Why?'.

    Perhaps the role will eventually be considered as needed, but it may take a LONG time. Look at how long it actually took the PC to be in nearly everyones livingroom and part of every day life? YEARS. Sure, there where many 'toys' out there. Who doesn't have a Vic20 of Commodore 64 in their attic or basement, but these never became the centerpieces that these devices are looking to fill..

    I dont forsee these being popular for several years yet. Unfortionatly, I said the same thing a few years back. Heck, in a few years, I might be saying it again. In the meantime, I hope at least one or two vendors survive, simply so I can have MY fix.. 8-P
  • i'm sorry, but i don't want anything in my kitchen or in reach of my kids that simply shouts its bad intentions.

    come on, the thing is called EVILla after all..

  • Apparently, yes. I suspect that laptops with wireless cards are filling the role that web appliances were supposed to fill.

    Yes, I know my grandma who knows nothing about how to setup such a network would love to buy a laptop (1500$), WAP (500$), 801.11b NIC (200$), and the related stuff for the network -- as well as maintain and understand it. Rather than, say, an 800$ "simple" webpliance she can just use with no more training or help from me. (All prices in CDN.)

    Once you realize that for every person who could setup and afford such a wireless laptop setup, you have a few hundred thousand who would go the eVilla route.. you see why Sony just made a silly move. Probably because of fears that the eVilla would work out like the PS2 for their bottom line (they are being sold under cost right now..).
  • ...on a particular niche market:

    There is a reason why FoodTV has gotten big and popular, and why Emeril is getting a sitcom (though I think it is a stupid thing for him to do, but hey, it's his life) - people are turning to cooking in the kitchen more!

    They are watching these shows, seeing how easy cooking really is (it is, after all, controlled burning at the heart of it - plus having a "taste" for things). I have also read of studies that what people want in a new home are tending toward more "kitchen-centric" areas - dining areas and more functional kitchens. Also, given the recession we are in, people are going to cook at home more, rather than going out, because it is cheaper (provided one cooks the right meals). Cooking magazine sales are also up - new food-oriented magazines seem to pop up everyday.

    So, where am I going with all of this?

    Well, the one thing I hate about being in the kitchen, and cooking - especially if I am trying a new recipe - is having a usually expensive cookbook open and such, trying to use it while doing things, etc - as well as not being able to search on recipe topic easily (say, oh - show me all recipes involving beef and broccoli, for instance) - it is hard with a lot of books, recipe cards, magazines, etc.

    Why not a recipe terminal - with search capabilities, etc?

    I have given thought to homebrewing such a device myself - I can easily see an i-opener permanently glued to allrecipes.com - but even that would fall somewhat short.

    I can imagine a monthly service and terminal, with a simple interface for navigation, plus maybe some robust detachable foot pedal type device, so that navigation can be easily performed, even if you are stirring a pot, or rolling some dough, or you have your hands dirty. A speech synthesis system could be integrated, so that the device could read you the recipe as you make it - imagine it reading off the ingredient list as you gather them around your kitchen. Remote printer functionality would have to be included - to print off shopping lists, or hard copies of the recipes (to give to unconnected friends). Also ways of using other recipes in a standard format (there is one major standard format for recipe databases out there - that could be used, or some XML system or something), so that new recipes could be added.

    This is a market that would buy such a device. It would have to be pretty robust to stand up to kitchen use, have a low power CPU and a bit of memory (it doesn't need to really be a web-browsing type system), a network interface and a compact flash interface (for storage of recipes).

    Market the device in Cook's Magazine, Gourmet, Martha Stewart's Living, Woman's Day, and on FoodTV as well (get Emeril to push the thing and it's a shooin!). I am sure a lot of people would buy this device, if it had a low enough price (say, $150-200, and $5-10 dollars a month for service - heck, the price for the device could even be a little higher - get KitchenAid to build it in their color scheme, and people would happily put it next to their mixer)...

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