Harry Potter Wins Hugo 452
H.I. McDonnough writes "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire by J.K. Rowling has won the Hugo for best novel. I'll refrain from commenting." I read the 2nd and 3rd Harry Potter books last week and they are just wonderful stories. I'm looking forward to reading this one. But a Hugo for SciFi Achievement? I have a hard time calling Potter stories Sci-Fi. But then again, since SF and Fantasy are often so blurred together, it probably is worth it. And anything that can get kids to read (or for that matter, get me to read a dead-tree version of anything) is good by me. And if you haven't read any Harry Potter books, then you aren't qualified to complain ;)
I truly enjoyed Harry Potter myself... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I truly enjoyed Harry Potter myself... (Score:2, Informative)
Yes, you are wrong.
Former Potter Skeptic (Score:2)
Hugo but... (Score:3, Insightful)
How would I accept to give my money to Warner after what they did to Harry Potter's fans [zdnet.com]?
Overrated? (Score:2, Informative)
When I was a kid, I was reading things like Robert Westall, John Wyndham, Ursula K LeGuin, Diana Wynne Jones... maybe it's just nostalgia, but Harry Potter doesn't seem like it's even in the same league as those old classics.
There are children's authors who deserve a Hugo (Roald Dahl springs to mind, as well as some of those listed above) but I suspect this award was given due to popularity, and the cynical side of my nature suspects that at least part of that popularity is due to their safe, harmless nature.
Interesting that it was the fourth (Score:4, Interesting)
You said you've only read the first, which really is pretty harmless. But the award was for the fourth, which is interesting -- the books in the series get progressively more complex, and much darker. There's a lot more death and unfairness in the world, etc. I think it's not an accident that they chose the fourth for the award....
Re:Overrated? (Score:3, Interesting)
Asimov and Clarke were about as deep as I could go, and no offense to those craftsmen, but LeGuin is a diffferent kind of animal. I'd liken her work to Philip K. Dick (Lathe of Heaven was a tribute to Dick, actually) and more recently folks like Johnathan Lethem. All great authors, but not really what I would point your average kid at.
Potter is great stuff, and I associate it (as fantasy) with kids SF like A Wrinkle in Time, which I have no end of respect for.
Re:Overrated? (Score:2)
I don't know what works the poster was referring to, or what the poster meant by "kid", but LeGuin has a number of books directed at young children. They are very very good. Here's a good reference to them http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/juv enile.html [feministsf.org]
As for LeGuin's non-children's works, The Lathe of Heaven wouldn't be a hard read for most kids who enjoy Harry Potter. The Dispossessed or The Left Hand of Darkness might require an older teen to appreciate.
Maybe The Wizard of Earthsea or The Word for World is Forest would be appropriate for kids, I'd have to go reread them to be sure. I read those as a young teen myself.
Re:Overrated? (Score:2)
I've never read any of her stories for younger readers. Should check them out (though I'm a little out of the age range now).
What I'm really hoping for is a resurgance of speculative fiction at all levels from TV's mass-market appeal to children's books to hard-core SF novels. If Harry Potter is the doorway to a younger generation of readers to start demanding quality sotry telling, I say more power to it!
Re:Overrated? (Score:2)
It was... okay, I guess. I was expecting something a lot more complex, though, and I was disappointed - it reminded me more of Enid Blyton than anything else.
A book doesn't bave to appeal to everyone to be a great book.
I suspect this award was given due to popularity, and the cynical side of my nature suspects that at least part of that popularity is due to their safe, harmless nature.
And a book that is popular doesn't automatically mean it's a bad or overrated book. I suspect that most of the bitching about this book is due to its popularity. I've never understood why people feel the need to mock things that are popular. Jealousy that their pet books are not as popular, perhaps?
Re:Overrated? (Score:2)
Harry Potter is to children now what The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was to my generation. Having read the Philosopher's Stone (so far) I think there's hope for the next generation after all.
The fiction children read is vastly important - the generation that explored near-Earth space had grown up on Sci-Fi. The Victorian explorers had grown up with tales of adventure. It was fiction that got me into travelling for fun, and working in cutting-edge tech. I look forward to great things from today's kids.
publicity stunt (Score:2, Flamebait)
Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:5, Informative)
2000 A Deepness in the Sky, by Vernor Vinge
1999 To Say Nothing of the Dog, by Connie Willis
1998 Forever Peace, by Joe Haldeman
1997 Blue Mars, by Kim Stanley Robinson
1996 The Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson
1995 Mirror Dance, by Lois McMaster Bujold
1994 Green Mars, by Kim Stanley Robinson
1993 A Fire Upon the Deep, by Vernor Vinge; Doomsday Book, by Connie Willis
1992 Barrayar, by Lois McMaster Bujold
1991 The Vor Game, by Lois McMaster Bujold
1990 Hyperion, by Dan Simmons
1989 Cyteen, by C. J. Cherryh
1988 The Uplift War, by David Brin
1987 Speaker for the Dead, by Orson Scott Card
1986 Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card
1985 Neuromancer, by William Gibson
1984 Startide Rising, by David Brin
1983 Foundation's Edge, by Isaac Asimov
1982 Downbelow Station, by C. J. Cherryh
1981 The Snow Queen, by Joan D. Vinge
1980 The Fountains of Paradise, by Arthur C. Clarke
1979 Dreamsnake, by Vonda McIntyre
1978 Gateway, by Frederik Pohl
1977 Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang, by Kate Wilhelm
1976 The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman
1975 The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia, by Ursula K. Le Guin
1974 Rendezvous with Rama, by Arthur C. Clarke
1973 The Gods Themselves, by Isaac Asimov
1972 To Your Scattered Bodies Go, by Philip Jose Farmer
1971 Ringworld, by Larry Niven
1970 The Left Hand of Darkness, by Ursula K. Le Guin
1969 Stand on Zanzibar, by John Brunner
1968 Lord of Light, by Roger Zelazny
1967 The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, by Robert A. Heinlein
1966
1965 The Wanderer, by Fritz Leiber
1964 Way Station, by Clifford D. Simak
1963 The Man in the High Castle, by Philip K. Dick
1962 Stranger in a Strange Land, by Robert A. Heinlein
1961 A Canticle for Leibowitz, by Walter M. Miller
1960 Starship Troopers, by Robert A. Heinlein
1959 A Case of Conscience, by James Blish
1958 The Big Time, by Fritz Leiber
1957 No Award
1956 Double Star, by Robert A. Heinlein
1955 They'd Rather Be Right, by Mark Clifton (currently sold as The Forever Machine)
1954 No Award
1953 The Demolished Man, by Alfred Bester
Re:Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:3, Interesting)
Orwell's 1984 told of screens that monitored the population; but the science of that technology was not the issue, the idea of freedom restriction was. The brothers Strugatsky's Roadside Picnic [probably my favourite sf novel] was about the life-changing effects of alien junk upon humans wondering about, and struggling with, their place in the universe. Conversely, Clarke's Rendesvouz With Rama was about the novelty of humans exploring alien technology, and Greg Bear's Eon was about the novelty of humans exploring future technology. (I didn't want to mention the Clarke example alone, as Clarke tends to straddle the worlds of hard/soft sf, as in the case of 2001).
Neuromancer is indeed about technology, but not from the science angle; it is about the dehumanizing, life-consuming impact of technology upon society -- as much as Gibson is enamoured with gadgets, if his books are about anything, it is about how we don't get happier by burying ourselves in techno junk -- and as such joins the proud ranks of soft sf.
Re:Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:2)
Re:Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:2)
Hard science fiction does the math, and breaks the rules with concious effort. Soft science fiction is more relaxed, and more concerned with internal logic than physics. Space opera neither knows no cares (Star Wars, Flash Gordon), making up the rules as it goes along, and then breaking them anyway.
Re:Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:2)
Asimov's Foundation Trilogy just narrowly beat Tolkien's Lord of the Ring Trilogy in the same year. (I liked both, but I'd say Tolkien was robbed.)
It's not just recently that fantasy and sci-fi have been blended and confused. And to make just two genres is also terribly limiting. Is "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" a fantasy, or a sci-fi, book?
Re:Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:2)
It's ridiculous; obviously the Hugo is becoming a popularity meter like the Oscar.
Please note any raving Potter fans that I also like the books, I have all four and bought the last two as soon as they hit the stands. But that doesn't mean that an award for something completely different ought to be given to Ms. Rowling. Give her the Caldecott medal and whatever Fantasy awards you like....
Popularity Contest (Score:3, Insightful)
The Hugo Award [worldcon.org] is a popularity contest. To quote from the page:
Re:Great books, but way out of the genre (Score:3, Insightful)
Come on, everybody knows it's a mystery book. Sure, it may have ghosts, time travel, aliens, spaceships, electric monks from another planet, and the bit about the horse, but it's deffinitely a "whodunit" book.
Re:check other categories (short fiction, etc.) (Score:2, Informative)
Some counterexamples:
1997 best novella: Blood of the Dragon by George R.R. Martin
1995 best original artwork: Lady Cottington's Pressed Fairy Book by Brian Froud
1991 best short story: Bears Discover Fire by Terry Bisson
1991 best dramatic presentation: Edward Scissorhands
1982 best novelette: Unicorn Variation by Roger Zelazny
1971 best novella: Ill Met in Lankhmar by Fritz Leiber
1958 best short story: Or All the Seas with Oysters by Avram Davidson
And these are just a sampling of winners that I know to be fantasy. There are many more I suspect may be as well. True, there is a strong tendency to choose SF over fantasy for the Hugos, but it's never been a rule.
[1] To Say Nothing of the Dog, Doomsday Book, Hyperion, The Snow Queen, Dreamsnake, To Your Scattered Bodies Go and Lord of Light are all on the border between SF and Fantasy, and several other entries are clearly soft SF. Note that Larry Niven argues that all time travel tales are fantasy.
science fiction isn't just technology... (Score:2)
From the Hugo rules... (Score:5, Informative)
Article 3 - Hugo Awards
...
Section 3.2: General.
3.2.1: Unless otherwise specified, Hugo Awards are given for work in the field of science fiction or fantasy appearing for the first time during the previous calendar year.
With added emphasis by me...
Anthony
Re:From the Hugo rules... (Score:4, Informative)
It doesn't cost very much to buy an advance supporting membership. I wish this page for the current Worldcon [netaxs.com] still had the prices for advance membership posted, but that info was probably removed when the deadlines passed. The prices were probably not too much different than next year's Worldcon [conjose.org]. Act now; for just $35 USD, you too will be able to nominate and vote the Hugo for works first published in 2001.
*** Ponderoid
Re:From the Hugo rules... (Score:2, Interesting)
The rules covering the Hugos are determined by the Worldcon business meeting which is open to all attendees who may propose and vote on amendments. Any amendment has to be ratified at next years convention which may be thousands of miles away but that is intended to prevent any local group packing the meeting.
In practice nobody has ever been able to come up with a definition which seperates SF and Fantasy. How, for instance, would you classify 'Jack of Shadows' where magic works in one hemisphere of the planet and Science in the other ?
I voted for the Harry Potter in second place, and I while think it is good enough to get a Hugo, this was a weak year for the novel. Last year I was torn between 'A Deepness in the Sky' and 'Cryptonomicon'.
I think 'Look to Windward ' by Iain M. Banks and the film 'Memento' are eligible next year so I'm going to nominate them if possible.
Rules can be found... (Score:2)
Also, a review of most of the winning books are here [jademountain.com]
Re:From the Hugo rules... (Score:2, Insightful)
or fantasy
and this is reinforced strongly if you actually look at the winners. Note that the film winner is Crouching Tiger.... There's no way that could be construed as science fiction.
Hugo just inverted Clarke's assumption (Score:5, Funny)
from technology
Re:Hugo just inverted Clarke's assumption (Score:2, Insightful)
While this has been moderated as funny, there is a serious side to this. David Brin, in his essay Science versus Magic makes a point essentially along these lines. His point is that the distinction between magic and technology is not so much their principle of operation as their sociology. Science and Technology (according to Brin) are about sharing ideas, understanding universally operating principles, and developing artifacts that work reliably. Magic, OTOH, is based on non-shared knowledge and forcing the world to work the way that you want it to, not according to reliable principles.
By that logic, you can actually make a very good case that "magic" in Harry Potter is much closer to Brin's idea of technology than his idea of magic. In Potter's world, new discoveries are shared with the rest of the (magical) world though regular publications and (magical) artifacts are mass produced and expected to work reliably. The very idea of a place like Hogwarts, where young witches and wizards are trained in a standardized magical curriculum is specifically against Brin's idea of magic.
IOW, Clarke did have it backward. Sufficiently advanced technology is distinguishable from magic because it operates differently. OTOH, as magic becomes more advanced it starts to look more and more like a technology.
Re:Hugo just inverted Clarke's assumption (Score:2)
A Better Choice (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the Harry Potter books a lot, but they don't have nearly the complexity that a Hugo award winner should.
Re:A Better Choice (Score:2)
Oh, wait; did you see the author of the Harry Potter series? Whoa, hot, young, curvaceous blonde. Maybe she'll bounce up and down in her excitement.
After all the fuss, I went and bought a Harry Potter book. Aimed at a 5th grade reading level, and kind of boring. I'm surprised how popular it was with adults though.
It's embarrasing that Harry Potter now ranks up there with books like Hyperion and Ender's Game.
Re:A Better Choice (Score:2)
And while there is a theological bend to the books, I really quite enjoy it -- there's something subtle to it. I'm under the impression there's much more of this in the last book. I reread the Narnia Chronicles a while ago, and the Christian basis of them was just painful -- I'm glad I didn't notice it the first time around. There's something about "Good Christian" art (music, fiction, etc.) that tends to be so tedious, unimaginative, and unchallenging.
Now in paperback (Score:2)
I can't tell you if it's any good -- it's sitting on the table in front of me at the moment, next up to be read -- but the first two were fascinating. Strongly recommended.
Re:A Better Choice (Score:2)
Interesting bit from IMDB on the movies:
The title of the source novel in the UK was "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" and the movie will bear the same title for the UK release. All scenes where the stone is mentioned by name will be filmed/looped accordingly to produce two different versions of the film to adapt to the title.
Re:A Better Choice (Score:3, Informative)
I imagine it's simply that philosophers aren't "exciting" enough for all the ADD-afflicted American audiences.
Or maybe that "philosopher" has a much different connotation in American English rather than British English.
But hey, don't let logic stop you when a perfectly good cynical explanation will do.
Re:A Better Choice (Score:2)
Does the notion of the "philosophers stone" not
exist in the US. Given that it dates back to well before the US was created I thought that it might.
As with a lot of stuff JK Rowling nicked her stuff from real mythology. The philosophers stone was the aim of alchemy, the substance that changed based metals to gold.
Which is of course what it does in the book. I don't understand why they changed the name in the US, except for perhaps a concern that the word "philosopher" would put people off. It seems to me that the US publishers should have more faith in the US population, and of course Rowlings story telling.
Phil
Re:A Better Choice (Score:2)
After all, most of the people (that I know of) who like fantasy gaming also like to read all those AD&D-esque novels, or their siblings. The mighty warrior, the old cranky wizard, the bumbling thief... those are almost requisite characters in most fantasy novels nowadays. Not that they're bad per se, but sometimes they get a little bit too alike for my taste.
Seems to me like "Harry Potter" brought something new to the Fantasy readers, or at least to the kids.
Re:A Better Choice (Score:2, Funny)
Philip Pullman is a her? Well, she certainly sounded male when I heard her on the radio a while back, and the interview seemed to think Pullman was male too. Perhaps her parents should have given her a more feminine name. But I guess we'd all better watch our assumptions.
New Hugo category: Best Twee Fiction (Score:3, Insightful)
Given that logic, one cannot make fun of Mary Kate & Ashley Magazine without reading it cover to cover. Yikes.
But the Hugos aren't much to get upset over. Douglas Adams [ridiculopathy.com] lost the Hugo for "best dramatic presentation" in 1979 to Superman, the Movie. Clearly, the Hugos have their Jethro Tull moments as well.
Re:New Hugo category: Best Twee Fiction (Score:3, Flamebait)
Given that logic, one cannot make fun of Mary Kate & Ashley Magazine without reading it cover to cover. Yikes.
I've never read the magazine. Why would I assume that I could make fun of it?
But given YOUR logic, I can go ahead and assume you're a child molestor, right? After all, I haven't met you, but you've indicated that it's OK to make any assumption I want without any evidence. I will notify the FBI immediately.
Of course, we know why you're making both these assumptions: popularity. Anything that is popular must be automatically bad. I picture you in your dank cellar, reading some obscure book, quietly seething that your book is not given the popularity that these "damn Harry Potter books" are given. Yes, it must be a conspiracy. The Hugo panel must have been bought off. Otherwise, why would they continue to ignore your fabulous, underrated book? You go back to reading your book for the 80th time.
Come out of the cellar, man, and just admit your book is a piece of crap. That's why people ignore it.
Ouch! (Score:2)
I guess the later books might be better and more complex, but still...
While you're at it (Score:2)
Why not go back and read some of Joanne Rowling's English term papers from grade 5, and then use those to comment on whether the 4th book in the series is worthy of the prize.
Re:Ouch! (Score:2)
She seems to be going for the "cohort" approach. In book one Harry is 11, and the book is written for an audience of that age. In book four harry is 14, and the audience is likewise treated as if they were older.
The books are getting a much much harder edge as they go one. Book 3 for instance does not have an entirely happy ending and lacks the resolution of the first two, as well as convoluted and taxing plot. Book 4 as I am sure you know features a death, and several rather unpleasant happenings, although I think it meanders a little bit.
Read the other books is my advice. If she carries on as she has started I think Harry Potter may grow into one of the classic serials of this century.
Phil
The Demise of Fantasy and Science Fiction (Score:3, Informative)
Reverie
?All the ideas in science fiction have been used up!?
How often we?ve heard this moan from editors, authors and fans, any one of whom should know better. Even if it were true, which is the last thing it is, it would signify nothing. How long ago do you think the themes of ordinary, mundane fiction were used up? Somewhere in the late Paleolithic, I should say. Which fact has made exactly no difference to the overwhelming outrush of modern masterpieces, four a shilling in the third tray from the left.
No. The existing material is sufficient to provide an infinite number of stories, each individual and each worth reading. Too much stress is laid on new ideas, or ?thought-variants?, on ?novae?. They are all very well in their way ? and it?s a way that leads to strange, delightful regions of fantasy ? but at least as important are characterization and the ability to treat a common- place theme in your own individual style. And for this reason, in spite of all his critics, I maintain that if any could equal Weinbaum, none could surpass him.
If, in addition to its purely literary qualities, a story has a novel idea, so much the better. Notwithstanding the pessimists, there are a million million themes that science fiction has never touched. Even in these days of deepening depression, a few really original plots still lighten our darkness. ?The Smile of the Sphinx? was such a one; going a good deal further back we have ?The Human Termites?, perhaps the best of all its kind before the advent of ?Sinister Barrier?.
As long as science advances, as long as mathematics discovers incredible worlds where twice two would never dream of equaling four: so new ideas will come tumbling into the mind of anyone who will let his thoughts wander, passport in hand, along the borders of Possibility. There are no Customs regulations; anything you see in your travels in those neighboring lands you can bring back with you. But in the country of the Impossible there are many wonders too delicate and too fragile to survive transportation.
Nothing in this world is ever really new, yet everything is in some way different from all that has gone before. At least once in his life even the dullest of us has found himself contemplating with amazement and perhaps with fear, some thought so original and so startling that it seems the creation of an exterior, infinitely more subtle mind. Such thoughts pass through the consciousness so swiftly that they are gone before they can be more than glimpsed, but sometimes like comets trapped at last by a giant sun, they cannot escape and from their stubborn material the mind forges a masterpiece of literature, of philosophy or music. From such fleeting, fragmentary themes are the Symphonies of Sibelius built - perhaps, with the Theory of Relativity and the conquest of space, the greatest achievements of the century before the year 2000.
Even within the limits set by logic, the artist need not starve for lack of material. We may laugh at Fearn, but we must admire the magnificent, if undisciplined, fertility of his mind. In a less ephemeral field, Stapledon has produced enough themes to keep a generation of science fiction authors busy. There is no reason why others should not do the same; few of the really fundamental ideas of fantasy have been properly exploited. Who has ever, in any story, dared to show the true meaning of immortality, with its cessation of progress and evolution, and, above all, its inevitable destruction of Youth? Only Keller, and then more with sympathy than genius. And who has had the courage to point out that, with sufficient scientific powers, reincarnation is possible? What a story that would make!
All around us, in the commonest things we do, lie endless possibilities. So many things might happen, and don?t - but may some day. How odd it would be if someone to whom you were talking on the phone walked into the room and began a conversation with a colleague! Suppose that when you switched off the light last thing at night you found that it had never been on anyway? And what a shock it would be if you woke up to find yourself fast asleep! It would be quite as unsettling as meeting oneself in the street. I have often wondered, too, what would happen if one adopted the extreme solipsist attitude and decided that nothing existed outside one?s mind. An attempt to put such a theory into practice would be extremely interesting. Whether any forces at our command could effect a devoted adherent to this philosophy is doubtful. He could always stop thinking of us, and then we should be in a mess.
At a generous estimate, there have been a dozen fantasy authors with original conceptions. Today I can only think of two, though the pages of UNKNOWN may bring many more to light. The trouble with present-day science fiction, as with a good many other things, is that in striving after the bizarre it misses the obvious. What it needs is not more imagination or even less imagination. It is some imagination.
Re:The Demise of Fantasy and Science Fiction (Score:3, Informative)
I will have to violently disagree with this.
Before I begin, I should say that I love both Tolkien and Asimov, grew up reading the Narnia books, and intensely dislike Clarke (except for the rather interesting short story The Billion Names of God, which I think is quite good). Both Tolkien and Asimov get whole bookshelves devoted to them.
I've been reading a lot recently, although only some of it was sf/f. Here's some sf/f authors who are currently publishing that I think are really interesting:
No, the real problem is a lack of recognition for these people. Although Robinson did win some awards, there are huge gaps. Generally speaking, in order to make the Hugos, you've got to have commercial success first: and nowhere is this more clear than in the Dramatic Presentation category, where the 1999 awards [dpsinfo.com] didn't even mention New Rose Hotel, [imdb.com] probably the best cyberpunk movie ever made.
Re:The Demise of Fantasy and Science Fiction (Score:2)
Of course, that's only my opinion, you know, my 2 fuseodollars' worth.
Re:The Demise of Fantasy and Science Fiction (Score:2)
Please turn your attention to Greg Egan. The best current SF writer if you ask me. Cooool ideas, great science, nice plots. Excellent reading for those who like hard SF. The author is an Australian programmer, he has a cool web site with many of his works available online:
http://www.netspace.net.au/~gregegan/ [netspace.net.au]
SF of the finest class. Sense of Wonder included.
Agreed. Also Verner Vinge for something different (Score:2)
Another excellent author, who manages to capture alien worldviews and put together a complex universe of wonder and suprise is Verner Vinge, in particular A Deepness in the Sky and A Fire Upon the Deep.
His concept of differing physical laws dependent on location in space (implied indirectly to be a function of the mean gravitational density of the region) is AFAIK quite original. Just as you cannot have supersonic craft underwater, so too can you not have superluminal craft in the slow depths of space (which our Earth happens to be in). Actually you may be able to have supersonic submersibles, but at present it appears to be impractical, and it serves to illustrate the concept that technologies which work great in certain regions of space break down completely in regions which are "deeper."
As for villians, his (human) Emergents are one of the most chilling (un)civilizations I've yet seen described, and his description of transcendent evil in A Fire Upon the Deep has interesting implications (and applications) to the real world, and to real world ethics.
Re:The Demise of Fantasy and Science Fiction (Score:2)
Just look at some of those other recent Hugo winners like Vernor Vinge, or Neal Stephenson, or Joe Haldeman, or William Gibson.
What has changed is the audience.
Look at the huge Star Wars, Star Trek catalog (which keep growing and growing, like a cancer on the SF section).
Look at the increase in Fantasy, with fewer SF titles in the SF/Fantasy section.
Although I really enjoy Lois McMaster Bujold's books, I think they barely fall into the SF catagory.
Nevertheless, (Score:3, Funny)
Three books went into /dev/null
Seven were lost due to a fire
Nine were left inside a hole
One remains to rule them all
One book that bests them all
One book to grind them,
One book will stay when most are sold,
And in oblivion bind them.
A few misconceptions in the comments (Score:4, Informative)
#1: The Hugos are a juried award. Nope; they're a fan award. Anyone who is a member of that year's Worldcon can vote; all it takes is the money to pay for a voting membership. You don't even have to attend.
#2: The Hugos are only for SF. They tend to be given to SF works, but the criteria explicitly include fantasy.
#3: Why didn't <foo> win instead? Hugos are given based on year of first publication, so Lord of the Rings wasn't eligible this year. The movies will be eligible for the Best Dramatic Presentation Hugo, however.
#4: The plagiarism case. A Washington Post article [washingtonpost.com] and a transcript of an online chat with Stouffer [washingtonpost.com] give some more details, but I tend to side with the folks who doubt the claims she makes [hpgalleries.com]. They were going to make a billion dollars! All my records were lost when my roof collapsed! I talked to the (never-married) editor and his wife! You can't remove IE from Windows without breaking it! (Sorry, that last one was from someone else.)
Re:A few misconceptions in the comments (Score:2)
The character design of tween Tim Hunter of Books of Magic and Harry Potter is very similiar, right down to round glasses. Gaiman wrote a 4 issue series about an orphaned boy who finds out he has magical powers in the early 90s, and it became a monthly and was only ended recently.
The above article also tells of similarities between Harry Potter and a 1982 book by Diana Wynne.
For a while there were rumors that Gaiman was going to sue, but neither he nor Vertigo care about the similarites. As a matter of fact, according to the above article, they put in some nods to Harry Potter at the end of the series as a kind of joke.
Anyway... if they were to make a case it would be a lot more credible than the case that is current going down. I don't think it really is plagerism... sometimes you get ideas from something, they get all mixed up, and they come out in a new form. This is the stance Gaiman, Wynne, and Vertigo are taking.
Potter Achieves the Impossible (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not for too much longer (Score:2)
What makes the Harry Potter books such fun reads is the very fact the novels have flat-out great scene descriptions, something that really sparks the imagination of readers. That's why I find these novels to be always so re-readable.
Anyway, Pottermania in terms of new books will explode again when the fifth novel, Harry Potter and the Order of Phoenix, comes out in March 2002. Expect at least a 6.5 to 7 million initial hardback print run worldwide for the English-language versions whenit comes out then.
Science Fiction VS Fantasy (Score:3, Insightful)
Science fiction stories do NOT have to be in space! Fantasy stories do not have to have witches, dragons, goblins, etc... you can have Fantasy in space and Science Fiction in the past.
Case in point: Larry Niven wrote a story about the essence of magic being a natural resource, like oil. Only in this story the resource was running out, and the magic in the world was failing. This is definitely science fiction.(Sorry I forget the title)
On the other hand you see books like the Honor Harrington series by David Webber, which is primarily war-in-space (this type book is often classified as Space Opera, I admit)... but these are essentially fantasy.
The main difference is that in Science Fiction there is some principal element to the story involving science - be it the Ring in Larry Nivens Ringworld, or Thistledown in Greg Bears Eon. Or it can be a theory, such as a change in the laws of physics (al la David Brins The Practice Effect). It need not involve space at all.
Fantasy on the other hand is primarily just a story. There might be science, be it in the form of space ships or anything else, but it is not a primary element to the story itself. Just because your characters ride a rocket doesn't make the story science fiction. If they are riding a rocket that they built, and the story is all about how they did it, then it might be science fiction.
(unless you are the crazy rocket guy [slashdot.org], then it could be your obituary)
Anyhow, Harry Potter is fantasy... but as has already been noted, that doesn't prevent it from winning a Hugo. A Hugo can go to a science fiction OR fantasy story.
My congratulations to J.K. Rowling!
Re:Science Fiction VS Fantasy (Score:2)
Soon, the movie. (Score:2)
$200M budget. A fair amount of CG for magic, but most of the sets are real places in England.
bah (Score:3, Informative)
I go the the same university as JK Rowling went to. TPTB are changning (strongly opposed) the name of the Free Tibet room the Harry Potter room. Theres a lot of anger arround the university regarding that.
I wouldnt mind, but We have other alumini that are more worthy! (Thom Yorke from Radiohead for one)
Re:bah (Score:2)
Nobody ever died defending Harry Potter...
No country's borders have been redrawn by a
totalitarian regime due to Harry Potter.
Next you'll be suggesting that we replace the
Vietnam Veteran's Memorial Wall with a Budweiser
billboard?
On reading and Potter (Score:5, Insightful)
I suppose I sound really old, but it seems that with television, video games and others, reading is not as important as it used to be.
Harry Potter got kids who had not read a book on their own in years to actually read something. Does the book deserve a Hugo for that? Probably not, but I think that they at least deserve some award (other than the huge financial one that they are going to get from licensing and movies)
I read the first two books (I refuse to buy the third and fourth in hardback), and they are a good read. Not the best ever (I have a difficult time comparing Ender's Game with Harry Potter), but a good read.
I would recommend that everyone read them, even if you pick them up from a library. Get to know what your kids are reading. We talk about watching kids while they are online. The same should go for what they read.
Re:On reading and Potter (Score:2)
not likely. i go to the library often and all 15 copies are usually checked out. so i've been catching up on heinlein and asimov -- the kiddies tend to leave them on the shelves.
my true hope is that from this generation of harry potter lovers will come an older, more mature generation of people who broadly enjoy SF and Fantasy books from many authors. and maybe --just maybe-- one of these harry potter readers will eventually write a great story for me to read that would never have been written.
this is one of the great benefits of great film, literature, etc (programming also), the tendency to inspire great works in others. i think that the harry potter series, if nothing else, goes a long way to inspiring an entirely new generation of kids to think about the world in a creative way which they would otherwise have ignored.
I have to agree with this... (Score:2)
I grew up with computers and videos and the rest of it, but I was encouraged to read (whatever I liked) from an early age... once the habit of reading is there, you start to explore other kinds of material
maybe Harry isn't educational in a strict sense, but if he encourages kids to read Asimov or Tolkien down the track, I think he's worth it
Why buy them hardback when you can get softcover? (Score:2)
I'm not sure how the "adult versions" they refer to differ from the normal versions - perhaps a bit extra content?
Re:On reading and Potter (Score:2)
Okay, be fair. Terry Pratchett is prolific as all hell, but lumping his stuff in with the Star Trek novels just because he's written a lot doesn't really work.
Granted, his books do have a tendency to repeat themselves (Terry, man, if I've already read four Discworld books, you don't have to keep explaining the turtle thing). I can't read 'em back to back (I tried... first five books, knocked 'em right out in a couple of weeks). But they're also pretty decently written satire, sometimes very well-written satire. They're not what I'd call "pap".
Granted, he's no Sterling... but who else is?
Novelette winner online (Score:2)
TC
It's a FAN AWARD!!! (Score:2)
If you'd bother to go read about the Hugo and how it is given before going ballistic, you'd know that the Hugos are nominated and voted on by the membership of Worldcon.
In other words, the fans did it.
It's a big fat popularity contest, and obviously the folks going to Philcon this year thought that Harry Potter was the best thing out there from last year (which was, admittedly, a horrible year for SF and fantasy in print).
If you want to bitch about it, pony up your $35, join ConJose for this time next year, nominate somebody, and vote your ballot. You don't vote, you got no reason to spam Taco's hard drive with whining.
warpeightbot, member, ConJose, the 60th World Science Fiction Convention
So let it be written, so let it be done.
Harry Potter is hardly a literary achievement (Score:2, Insightful)
I've read all of the Potter books released to date, mostly as light reading for the bus ride when heavier material can't hold my attention. These books just zip by - it's like a cartoon series in novel form. I read them because I kept hearing so much about them - and because once the Christians started being horrified by "the Occult" descriptions, and I saw this Onion article [theonion.com], I couldn't not read them.
But a literary award? The only reason I'd do that would be to piss off the Christians (and it'd almost be worth it...)
They are very cartoony. The four books released so far have an Episode One feel to them, like when the kid yells "now THIS is pod racing!" Harry's arch-enemy is this brat named Draco Malfoy from a family of evil wizards, but he never seems to be a threat. Like Biff in Back to the Future, every scrape ends in Malfoy under the proverbial shitpile moaning "I hate manure". It's like, can't something bad happen to the hero? Shouldn't he have to face some challenge and get a victory he truely earns, rather than simply lucking out because he was born "the One"? Maybe the next three books will get a little darker as he gets older, I dunno.
Refrain from comment? Not likely (Score:2)
good stuff, but somewhat overhyped (Score:2)
Danny.
Comment (Score:2)
It seems like everyone is surprised that Harry Potter won a Hugo. Why? I think everyone is forgetting that the Hugo is a People's Choice type of award. The books are quite enjoyable to read - I'm not surprised that the people chose to honor it. Now, if it were to win a Nebula Award (chosen by members of SFWA), then I would be stunned...
Harry Potter is Devil Worship (Score:2, Funny)
"Potter books: Wicked witchcraft? New documentary claims tales lead kids to the occult" [worldnetdaily.com]
And the "documentary" video [shopnetdaily.com], of course.
It is to giggle.
Bob-
Re:There is no justice (Score:5, Insightful)
They aren't childrens books at all.
- They don't have any sex.
- They don't have any violence (well not gruesome violence anyway).
- They don't have any swearing.
Does that define them as children's books? Or are they just really good, timeless stories which appeal to all ages and don't need any of the Hollywood glorification which you get in typical "airport" novels.
This same argument is rolled out every time a graphic novel wins a hugo or a nebula award - "that's not a real book."
Come on - get a grip! They are great books which attract people back to reading - is that really all that bad?
Re:There is no justice (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it's the fact that J.K. Rowling writes them for children that makes them children's books. The fact that some adults can also enjoy the books is beside the point. The target audience is kids. Or have you recently seen kids lining up at the library to hear the latest Stephen King novel read to them?
Re:There is no justice (Score:2, Informative)
Re:There is no justice (Score:3, Interesting)
I would take exception to the idea that Children's literature is somehow inferior, except it's understandable that many adults cannot appreciate it. Children may be inferior readers to adults in almost every sense but one: the average child has powers of imagination stupendously greater than any adult. When they are imagining what it would be like to fly they actually experience flying in the way no adult can. Children's books are as unsuitable for most adults imaginations as adult shoes are for most children's feet.
The Harry Potter books are strange beasts, since they include many elements familiar from children's books, but they are not used in the same way. The language tends to be more complex than true children's books, requiring a more sophisticated capability for turning words on the page into mental images.
One thing that I have heard is that Rowlings is orienting each novel to the age group of Harry Potter in that novel -- meaning that the latest novel is oriented to fourteen year olds and the last novel will be for seventeen year olds. Thus, properly speaking the Goblet of Fire is juvenile literature, not children's literature. More to the point, the whole series must be viewed as a single work that accompanies the reader from childhood (11 years old) to young adulthood (17 years old). Each books is oriented to the concerns and abilities of the person the young reader is becoming rather than is, which makes them a challenging but satisfying read for the young reader, and accessible to older readers.
The characters in GoF have a much more complicated interior life than they did in earlier installments. It introduces children to the idea of people whose character is ambiguous or conflicted. It gently introduces them to death. It sets the stage for more complex, painful and potentially cathartic stories later in the series. I will be curious to see if Rowling can keep the books kid friendly while essentially creating a fully adult novel by book 7 of the series.
I hope she does, because it will be an unique accomplishment -- a work that spans children's literature and adult literature. One thing about a bridge is that you can cross it both ways.
Re:There is no justice (Score:2)
I would've been, but then, I started reading his work when I was eight, after having seen "The Shining" on television. I was actually proud of myself when, at age 12, a distant relation who was a librarian said "You shouldn't be reading this book" when she saw me with Updike's "Witches of Eastwick."
Re:There is no justice (Score:2)
The fact is the books are written from a child's perspective, not an adult's. They don't seem to me a particularly poignant commentary on my life today. They are wonderful, fantastic stories that remind me of childhood in plot, attitude, and morality. (ah... my wizarding days)
-Erik
Re:There is no justice (Score:2, Interesting)
So, Ender's Game was written for children under 10? Ender was young in the novels, and most of the other characters were of simular age.
Just a question.
Re:There is no justice (Score:2)
Ender's game, on the other hand asks some very big, very adult questions about things like responsibility and childhood. Yes, childhood is an adult issue. To children there is no childhood, it's just "life". It's not until you become an adult that whether you were allowed to live a childhood matters. I don't remember much of EG, but freedom, genocide, and morality were big, adult issues.
-Erik
Re:There is no justice (Score:2)
And the first bit of Great Expectations was written from a child's perspective.
Re:There is no justice (Score:3, Insightful)
The best definition of science fiction I'm aware of is that science fiction is the genre studying alternative futures, pasts, or presents. "Alternative" in the sense either simply that some things turned out differently (think some of Philip K Dick, or perhaps 'Fatherland'), or, more often, that the laws of physics were slightly different.
Your classic, space-ship atom-blaster science fiction falls squarely within this definition as possible futures. Much great science fiction (Wyndham, Wells, Ballard) deals with alternative presents.
And most fantasy fiction also meets this criteria, IMO: it deals with an alternative present in which magic is possible.
Of course, lots of fantasy fiction is also strongly influenced by the mold of the 'epic' or the 'quest' (Tolkein, Eddings, etc...), but so is some science fiction, and even some plain novels.
Personally, I'm a little doubtful that (any of) the Harry Potters deserved a Hugo, but they *are* well written and enjoyable (IMO), and I don't have an issue with them being classed as science fiction.
Jules
Re:There is no justice (Score:3, Informative)
The only guy who ever did a good job at it is Darko Suvin, the Canadian SF theoretician. He nails it down pretty well, in like five hundred academic essays, but nobody in the field is ever going to say he is right. He talks about cognitive estrangement; that sf is "a literary genre whose necessary and sufficient conditions are the presence and interaction of estrangement and cognition, and whose main formal device is an imaginative framework alternative to the author's empirical environment". (Note that my short excerpt of those aforementioned zillions of essays is broad enough to include fantasy; further reading is recommended, especially if you have trouble sleeping at night.)
Some other nice definitions:
A science fiction story is a story built around human beings, with a human problem, and a human solution, which would not have happened at all without its speculative scientific content. (Theodore Sturgeon)
Science fiction is that branch of literature which is concerned with the impact of scientific advance upon human beings. (Isaac Asimov)
Science fiction deals with improbable possibilities, fantasy with plausible impossibilities. (Miriam Allen deFord)
Personally I prefer this definition, offered by John Clute and Peter Nichols in The SF Book of Lists (emphasis mine):
Re:There is no justice (Score:2)
The Harry Potter books ask that question quite clearly: "What if there are real magicians walking among us?" They certainly qualify, although I think most people would classify them as "fantasy."
Still, as has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, the Hugo rules do allow the selection of works of fantasy. And Hugos are voted on by the fans, and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire has certainly been very popular. Does that put it in the same class with The Dispossessed, or The Forever War, or The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, or Neuromancer (to name four previous Hugo winners with which I'm familiar)? Not necessarily, but does it necessarily have to be in the same class?
For the record, I've read all four of the Harry Potter series to date, and I thoroughly enjoyed them. Rowling's writing reminds me a lot of Roald Dahl's, in particular. And I know I'm not alone among adult geeks in liking them; I note that the Jargon File [tuxedo.org] now contains the word "muggle [tuxedo.org]." In retrospect, Goblet of Fire (the longest and most complex Harry Potter to date) winning the Hugo seems not only likely, but almost inevitable.
Eric
Re:There is no justice (Score:2)
I think people are conveniently forgetting that Hugos can encompass both science fiction and fantasy novels (for the most part). You do have to admit that the fourth Harry Potter novel was a very good read, indeed.
It matter not the Genre, the award (Score:2)
Re:I guess.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Tolkein certainly built a more dramatic and consistent world, paying the most inhuman attention to details (including creating the languages his people spoke...). And LOTR is rather more epic in scope, and takes the good old Wagnerian theme of an immense struggle against an old evil.
On the other hand, the Harry Potter books are more like everyday novels, in that they explore the emotions of the characters and their relationships in a way Tolkein never really bothered to do.
The books are really apples and oranges: I enjoyed them both. I did, in fact, enjoy LOTR more... but I personally enjoy the detail in Tolkein's world which many readers find boring...
I wouldn't be that surprised if, on average, LOTR was more popular with males and Harry Potter with females. (Aha! Cunning controversial point to attract attention to my post)
Jules
Re:I guess.... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Just one question. (Score:3, Informative)
It's not a jury.
The Hugos are voted on by fans. Each year, there is a World Science Fiction Convention held somewhere in the world. This year, it was in Philadelphia.
Members of the convention (most of whom are also attendees) are eligible to vote for the Hugos.
The Nebulas have a jury. When the Hugos go wrong (and they do; The Dispossessed is an interesting book, but it's nowhere near as significant as The Shockwave Rider, the Nebula winner that year) it's a matter of mass confusion, not a small, elite group going weird.
Perhaps next year they will give it to American Gods. :)
Re:Just one question. (Score:2)
It'll be real interesting to see if Neil Gaiman will be at ConJosé as a nominee, given that American Gods will likely get nominated given Gaiman's major name recognition in the science fiction community.
Re:Just one question. (Score:2)
Perhaps.
I shouldn't say anything: I really like Gaiman. But I read American Gods, and it was fun, but I would be quite shocked if it were to receive a Hugo (or a World Fantasy award - hey, remember that incident? :)
Not as shocked as I am for Harry Potter, though.
Re:Just one question. (Score:2)
Re:Just one question. (Score:2)
I'm not saying The Dispossessed doesn't deserve a nomination; I'm just saying that it doesn't deserve to be put above a book like The Shockwave Rider, which basically laid the foundation for the dominant form of SF through the '80s and much of the '90s - and which didn't even get nominated.
Re:Just one question. (Score:2)
yup, yer right. I had thought that Stand had been a double-winner; it was at least nominated for the Nebulas.
oh well. yet another example of why awards are useless. The Shockwave Rider is probably the most influential book of the '70s, in that it, along with the work of Dick, was what created cyberpunk. and it didn't even get nominated for either of the Major Awards. Dickson gets nominations for Dorsai! and Time Storm, and that's it. meanwhile, Card pulls down a nomination every time he puts a book out. (now, he's good, but Dickson is much better.) and Stephenson pulls down a Hugo for Diamond Age, but gets a runner-up for the rather superior Cryptonomicon. Pohl hasn't had a Best Novel Hugo since Gateway.
poor ol' Bob Forward once got nominated for a Campbell Award, and that's been it.
it's just commerce. they're really not any different from the Emmys.
Re:Science Fiction vs. Fantasy (Score:2)
Jonathan
Disclaimer: I'm not an HP fan, although I've only read the first book, and according to some here they do get better.
not the only one.. (Score:2)
I don't have a URL to send you to, but it's a famous Vertigo mini-series. It's about an orphaned boy who finds out he has amazing talents in magic, and is visited by a number of known D.C. magical rhelm characters (like John Constantine, Death, others) to help him learn about it.
The main character even LOOKS the same as Harry Potter, with the round glasses and such. For a while there was a rumor the Neil Gaiman was going to sue, but he says he thinks that the similarities are just amazing coincidences, as the the two characters were thought up at the same time (early 90s) in approximately the same place (England).
Re:not the only one.. (Score:2)
As Neil Gaiman lacks almost of all of the talent of Rowling for producing a tightly plotted, funny and moving book however, I think the similarities are pretty irrelevant.
Harry Potter is not novel. Its the way that its wrapped up that makes it good.
Phil
Re:Harry Potter and plagiarism? (Score:2)
Harry Potter is also amazingly similar to "The Books of Magic," written by Neil Gaiman.
I don't have a URL to send you to, but it's a famous Vertigo mini-series. It's about an orphaned boy who finds out he has amazing talents in magic, and is visited by a number of known D.C. magical rhelm characters (like John Constantine, Death, others) to help him learn about it.
The main character even LOOKS the same as Harry Potter, with the round glasses and such. For a while there was a rumor the Neil Gaiman was going to sue, but he says he thinks that the similarities are just amazing coincidences, as the the two characters were thought up at the same time (early 90s) in approximately the same place (England).
Re:Indeed... (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, they do. There's a specialist bookseller on Charing Cross Road in London, that caters exclusively to the Crime, Romance and SF/Fantasy markets. They do, at least, have enough sense to put them in separate parts of the shop, though
As for why SF and fantasy are lumped together, it's almost certainly because they attract the same core market. Yes, there are exceptions, but in general, SF fans like fantasy, and vice versa. I know that's certainly true for me. Fantasy currently dominates my bookshelf by a ratio of about 2:1, but that's mostly because I can't find enough decent SF books. And yes, I'd say I have a large enough bookshelf to be statistically significant (just over 1000 at last count).