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Structural Damage to the Financial District 316

Posted by michael from the engineering-challenge dept.
An anonymous submitter sent in a couple of links to damage reports on the World Trade Center complex - a nifty 3D map of the center and surrounding areas showing which buildings have been damaged or destroyed, and a discussion of how exactly they're going to excavate the below-ground area of the complex considering that it is below sea level.
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Structural Damage to the Financial District More

Structural Damage to the Financial District

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  • "Nifty"??? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tswinzig ( 210999 ) on Sunday September 23, 2001 @12:23PM (#2337834) Journal
    Yeah, that map showing the destruction of one of America's greatest symbols sure is "nifty"!

    • Re:"Nifty"??? (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by Kymermosst ( 33885 )

      I agree with your sentiments. It's not "nifty"... it may be interesting, but "nifty" is a bit jovial, considering what it's a diagram of.

    • Re:"Nifty"??? (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by mesmin ( 519217 )
      It's nifty because it lets you look to exact what got damaged (and how badly). There was no carnage in the map, just an informative illustration.
      • I did find the map nifty, because I really didn't feel like I knew the extent of the damage. I didn't have any sort of diagram that could relate what happened.

      • Re:"Nifty"??? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by SilentChris ( 452960 )
        Except knowing that, in your heart, there were 5000+ people buried in those structures.
        • I think because of the fact that i know 5000+ were buried in the collapse makes the map nifty. It gives a new visual prespective on the events that occured. It shows that the trajedy was more spread out than the two WTC buildings.
    • Sorry, would you prefer "neat-o"?
    • c'mon... the statute of limitations for sorrow and loss has passed. Time to throw random words around again!
      • the statute of limitations for sorrow and loss has passed

        You're an inconsiderate ass. The only thing I can think of worse than calling it 'nifty' is you saying the time for sorrow has passed. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if it were your loved ones who died in there. Man, how cold-hearted can you get?!?!

        You need to shut the hell up and let people get over it when they want to, in their own time... this was a great loss.

        • Re:"Nifty"??? (Score:2, Insightful)

          by spectral ( 158121 )
          Would you still be this attached to it if it happened in London? Tokyo? What if all of Japan just sunk into the water without warning? Do you REALLY think everyone would be as attached to it as they are? No. They're attached to it because it happened in the U.S. and it's unprecedented. Shit like this happens daily in some countries, huge losses of innocent civilian lives. I find the fact that you are so disgusted about this, and not about that horribly disturbing. You aren't mourning the dead at all, (unless maybe you somehow knew some people affected by it), you're mourning the loss of our feeling of invulnerability.

          • Re:"Nifty"??? (Score:3, Insightful)

            by MarkusQ ( 450076 )
            Shit like this happens daily in some countries, huge losses of innocent civilian lives. I find the fact that you are so disgusted about this, and not about that horribly disturbing. You aren't mourning the dead at all, (unless maybe you somehow knew some people affected by it), you're mourning the loss of our feeling of invulnerability.

            Very well put. No one here seemed to care much about the 20000 people burried under rubble in India back in January (just to pick one example). To me, the disconnect is far more disturbing than the actual deaths; I would hope that a country with as much weapontry as we have could aford a bit more perspective.

            -- MarkusQ

      • There is no statute of limitations on sorrow. There is no statue of limitation on grief.


        These like many "true" emotions may fade with time, or be replaced by others.


        You learn to live with them, and replace them with good emotions.

      • IIRC from my psychology classes, the average period of grief for family members of someone who dies unexpectedly is around 6 weeks. Of course it varies with culture and circumstance, but grief is generally a very naturally and productive response to tragedy.

        I don't know how long it will take for the average US citizen to move on, but I'd expect you'd need to get going on the response process. Whether that means war, bombings, arrests and trials, or whatever, I don't know.

        In any case I don't think it will ever be appropriate to throw random words around in the context of the WTC tragedy. Just in the same way we shouldn't call anything associatted with the Nazis as being "cool" or "awesome". It's just far to inconsiderate to those people closely involved with the disaster.
      • I'm sorry to imform you but its not over, more will certainly die during the monumental clean up of the devastated areas in NY and Washington. That's just the nature of an enormous engineering projects. Our Military is poised to move, and some will be injured, contract strange illnesses or die even if no shots are ever fired. Americans are being harrassed, because they look Arab, sooner or later some nut-case will kill someone out of some sick need for revenge. Many Afgans will die, even if the Terrorists are turned over immediately and no outside Military action occures because the just the nature their situation there.

        Surely we are intellegent to realise that we are still in the beginning. The terrorists have moved from a juvenile phase to an adult phase, and we will now hold them responsible for their actions, not only as individuals but as organisations to. The Terrorists have graduated to weapons of mass destruction, and with it the responsability of a country. We will now have to treat anyone who presents themselves as a terrorist organisation, as have the ability to wage full-scale war against us. and again many will die as a result.

        Let's not forget that even the most evil among us have innocent loved ones who'll genuinely morn their loss. Soon I fear my son will be in harm's way as he is a Soldier, as I once was.

        • "...sooner or later some nut-case will kill someone out of some sick need for revenge."

          Already happening. Some guy from India who was a Sikh and therefore about as Muslim as the Pope got shot 3 or 4 days ago just for wearing a turban by some idiot who probably couldn't tell an Ethiopian from an Armenian from an Italian from George Hamilton in the middle of tanning season.

    • Re:"Nifty"??? (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by Hanno ( 11981 )
      I agree.

      Michael, if you're reading this - please rethink your style of commenting articles. Almost all of your recent comments have been either lame ("oh, I have to make some kind of comment"), flamish ("yes, that will stir up discussion on /.") or inappropriate (like this one).

    • Lighten up (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MarkusQ ( 450076 ) on Sunday September 23, 2001 @02:44PM (#2338212) Journal
      Yeah, that map showing the destruction of one of America's greatest symbols sure is "nifty"!

      Get some perspective please. Ten thousand Americans die every day. I lot of them are killed by automobiles, but I can still say "that's a nifty car"; more of them are killed by diet related problems, but I can still say that I know a place that serves nifty deserts.

      Sorrow is one thing; the sappy, uber-solemn milking of "our national grief" that the media is pumping out to manipulate us into going out and killing a bunch more people is quite another; and I, for one, want no part of it.

      -- MarkusQ

      • Um, there's a difference between 6,000 people dying in accidents and 6,000 people being intentionally murdered (not to mention the economic cost).

        the media is pumping out to manipulate us into going out and killing a bunch more people is quite another; and I, for one, want no part of it.

        Just out of curiosity, how many have to die for you to think it's important? Another 10 jumbo jets? We know the terrorists are actively trying to get nuclear weapons. It should be pretty clear that they don't care how much damage they do or how many people they kill. How many need to die? Would a nuke killing 5 million people be enough for you?

        Guess what -- sometimes there are more important things in life than how soon you get your shiny new video game.

        • Absent logic. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by MarkusQ ( 450076 ) on Sunday September 23, 2001 @04:50PM (#2338644) Journal
          Your response illustrates perfectly the sort of "emotional reasoning" to which I am objecting. For example:

          Um, there's a difference between 6,000 people dying in accidents and 6,000 people being intentionally murdered (not to mention the economic cost).

          I would argue that there is little or no difference to the people who die. I for one, do not expect to have fundamentally different feelings about my death based on whether if it is brought about by a drunk driver or a terrorist. In fact, I expect to be dead.

          To the living (or perhaps in this context it would be better to say "To the yet to die") there is, I would agree, a great deal of difference. I am for example, far, far more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than by a terrorist (assuming of course that a smoker doesn't get me with second hand smoke first). Furthermore, there are many more steps I can take to protect myself from these more likely threats, and almost none of them involve letting the media work my up to a blood lust so that I sanction more senseless killing. But I doubt that was your point.

          Just out of curiosity, how many have to die for you to think it's important? Another 10 jumbo jets? We know the terrorists are actively trying to get nuclear weapons. It should be pretty clear that they don't care how much damage they do or how many people they kill. How many need to die? Would a nuke killing 5 million people be enough for you?

          This seems to me utter blather. I object to using the deaths of some innocents to justify killing more innocents; you "rebut" by asking how many more people I want to die, as if I were the one screaming for blood. In case you still don't get it:

          I don't think killing innocent people is a good idea.

          I have no objection to apprehending the culprits, including their support staff, charging them with murder and, if they are convicted, imprisoning or executing them to prevent further atrocities. This is a far cry from declaring "war on Afganastan" or "nuking 5 million people."

          Guess what -- sometimes there are more important things in life than how soon you get your shiny new video game.

          I have no idea where this came from. In point of fact, I have never owned a video game, shiny or dull, new or used. And even if I had, I expect that I would still object to being badgered into attacking a nation of several million poor people on the basis of the alleged actions of one wealthy nut case and his misguided followers.

          -- MarkusQ

          • I don't think killing innocent people is a good idea.

            This is what is so absurd. Show me who is arguing for killing innocent people. Point me to a government statement. We are talking about taking out the government of Afghanistan, who are protecting the terrorists, no different than trying to take out, say, Hitler's government.

            I expect that I would still object to being badgered into attacking a nation of several million poor people on the basis of the alleged actions of one wealthy nut case and his misguided followers.

            That's because you are blind to the big picture. You don't seem to be able to accept that this was not an accident, and that certain people have declared war on the United States. People ask how it could be possible for a madman like Hitler to rise to power. Well, look in the mirror and see the answer. If you were in charge, we would just say "Oh well!" when Afghanistan refuses to turn over the terrorist (and meanwhile goes back to business supporting and protecting him), since the "MarkusQ Doctrine" is apparently that we just let it go when someone attacks the country. Then what happens when he manages to stage a coup and takes Saudi Arabia? "Oh well", says MarkusQ, that's the breaks. Oh oh, he's invading other middle east countries.

            But hey, Hitler was just a fluke, right?

            • When did anybody declare ware on the United States? I've heard Dubya say that, but I haven't even heard anybody claim responsibility for the attack. It's pretty hard to declare war without even admitting to doing something.

              What proof do you have that the Taliban has supported or protected bin Laden? Last I heard they were asking him to leave. He (a Saudi btw) lives in Afghanistan at least some of the time, but what proof do you have that he is even welcome there? What makes you think the Taliban could get him to leave if they wanted to?

              Which is the easier statement to back up with proof? That the Taliban is protecting the terrorists or that innocent people will die in a "war on terrorism"?

              If you want to talk about Hitler, then let's talk about him. Should the US have attacked the French government in World War 2 because they were harboring Hitler?

              Maybe instead of blindly attacking anybody who isn't "With America", we should look at what caused this attack. Why is it that so many places hate the US? Should we really be supporting Israel with money and weapons? Should we really be defending Saudi Arabia, or should a rich country like that have their own army? Isn't it time we either arrested or killed Saddam Hussien, or left Iraq alone?

              Everybody is welcome to their own opinion, but they shouldn't just get their opinions off CNN without even thinking about what's being said.

              • Bin Laden *has* declared war on the United States. He may call it a Jihad (though according to what I know about Islam, what Bin Laden is doing goes against every principal of the religion) or a Fatwa or whatever, but he has told his followers it is their duty to kill Americans. That is a declaration of war. How we respond to this declaration is what needs to be debated. I agree completely that we need to understand why these people hate us so much and I don't get the impression that many people know. If we fail to understand why we were attacked, we will probably make the problem worse with everything we do. On the other hand, we can't let mass murderers run around loose.


                As for WOrld War II, please enlighten me as to when the French government harbored Hitler any more than the rest of what eventually became the Allies? Or do you mean the French government after Hitler's army set up a puppet government? We *did* attack that government for doing exactly what you said - harboring Hitler.


                Although, you do bing up a good point with the comparison of Hitler to Bin Laden. Both have a fanatical following in an incredibly impoverished country that was screwed over by the West. Both have identified an "evil" enemy to blame their country's suffering.

          • "...assuming of course that a smoker doesn't get me with second hand smoke first..."

            Now there's a devious terrorist plot for you. Send hundreds and thousands and hundreds of thousands of dedicated followers over here to give their lives not in an instant in an explosion, but slowly, stealthily, by lung cancer, heart disease, and emphysema, in order to spread the same via second-hand smoke to countless others. Would we ever even suspect a thing until it was too late if we didn't spot bin Laden going long in tobacco companies?

          • If Islamic extremists want a war, I'd be happy to give it to them. Terrorists, of any type, are not the kind of people we are missing in the world. They're not afraid to die, and I'm not afraid to die sending them along to their heaven.

            So what if during that process innocent lives are taken? Should we stop fighting terrorism? Should we hold a prayer vigil? Should we all come together and pretend everyone else loves each other and it'll be easy to "get along?" Which of these is going to stop further innocent deaths?

            Call my crazy, but let's think about the larger picture. The sooner we stop terrorism, through any means, the sooner we will return to a stable environment where people can raise families and be successful. I'm not suggesting a police state -- we have our beliefs and ideals, and we should not sacrifice these. But we should not sacrifice our hope and faith in our system either. We need to take the war to them. Take the war to Corsica, to Northern Ireland, to Afghanistan, to Syria, to Lybia, to Pakistan, to Iran.

            And this is a war. This is a war for freedom, for our way of life. We think our way is the best and, frankly, we have the guns to back it up -- in the long run that makes us right. We are fighting for stability of the free world. Make no mistake, these next few months will shape the face of the world for the next hundred years.

            When it all comes down to it, I'm willing to sacrifice my life, and any number of innocents, to protect what the free world has worked so hard to achieve. Innocent lives may be sacrificed at home or away, but a price must be paid for the freedom we enjoy.

            If there's one thing that human beings understand insinctively, it's raw, and extreme, force. We have the way, but we need the will.
            • lol

              > Take the war to Afghanistan...

              Afghanistan has been at war for the last 13 years. They have lost 30% of the population, roughly 1 million dead, and 2 million refugees. The entire country is littered with land mines.
              Carter's National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski proudly informed the French press that he had sprung the Afghant trap months before the Russians actually invaded by arranging for US support for Mujahideen fighting the government. The Russians invaded partly to prevent CIA spsonsored Islamic fundamentalism from spreading into USSR. So, if there was any Afghan involvement in WTC attack (doubtful) then I expect they see it as taking the war back to US.

              > So what if during that process innocent lives are taken?
              ....
              > If there's one thing that human beings understand insinctively, it's raw, and extreme, force.

              An opinion evidently shared by the terrorists. From a practical standpoint though, one has to wonder whether indescriminate bombing will make terrorism less likely. Certainly, a dead terrorist is less likely to attack than a live one, but if you kill a bunch of innocents too, then you make new terrorists at the same time.

              Since 11/9 have you felt more inclined to bomb the crap out of someone or less inclined ? Do you expect people in mid-east to react differently ? The US is gearing up to kill a bunch of people. In all likelihood tens of thousands of people who had no more knowledge or support for the terrorist's activities than you did will die. Do you think this will make their kin more or less likely to do everything in their power to kill us ?

        • The poster never said that the events at the World Trade Center weren't important, or that 6000 deaths weren't important. They are, but he's right that people need some perspective. Every year in the US approx 2.4 million people die. That's approx 6500 a day. Since 9/11, about 80,000 people have died across the US. Every year, 20,000 people die of AIDS in the US. In New York, approx 2500 people have died since the attack in completely unrelated ways. Since you mention murder, almost 20,000 people have been murdered in the US since 9/11.

          A lot of people died, and it is sad. A lot of property was destroyed, and that's sad too. A well known landmark of NYC was levelled and that's sad. But more than sad, most of these things are scary to people who didn't see it coming. But the world is fundamentally the same as it was 2 weeks ago before everything happened. Air travel is far less convenient, Manhattan is drastically changed, but the US has barely changed at all.

          I think the map CNN made to show the damage to NYC is neat. It does a good job of showing the scale of the damage. The fact I think the map is neat doesn't mean I don't think the damage is horrible, but I am able to differentiate between the map and the damage itself. I also think SmartMoney's map of the market is neat (http://www.smartmoney.com/marketmap/index.cfm?sho wWeekStats=true [smartmoney.com]). It shows graphically what the market has been doing in the last week. This doesn't mean I think it's neat that the market lost 15% in 1 week, or that the weapons contractors are up; Lockheed Martin is up 10%, General Dynamics is up 10% and Northrop Grumman is up 20%.

          Don't confuse the messenger with the message.

          Sources: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ [cia.gov], http://www.citypopulation.de/ [citypopulation.de] http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/keytabs.htm [usdoj.gov]

          • Since you mention murder, almost 20,000 people have been murdered in the US since 9/11.

            I don't think that is true. I Googled for some crime stats and I found this [cnn.com] piece at CNN. It's the '97 stats, but it says that there were "...18,209 murders, or 6.8 for every 100,000 people..."

            20,000 murders in the US since 9/11/01? It's more like 20k murders a year in the entire nation.

      • I lot of them are killed by automobiles, but I can still say "that's a nifty car"; more of them are killed by diet related problems, but I can still say that I know a place that serves nifty deserts.

        As true as that is, I can't imagine many people actually associate cars or deserts with people dying. On the other hand everyone is going to associate anything relating to the WTC with the tragic loss of life. Death shouldn't be trivialized by calling it or things directly associated with it, "nifty". No more so than I would want people calling gruesome fatal car wrecks nifty.
    • Well /. is being it's typical blather without even the beginning of a shread of thought. Let's see if we can add information to the uninformed, uneducationed fodder that is about to be drafted to go to war. ;-)

      In order to manage a problem like this one, one needs to communicate effectively between all the different stakeholders that are interested in the problem. To this end, NYC has a group just for the purpose. They are called The City of New York Emergency Mapping Center. They produced the parent of all these status maps which is located here [nyc.gov].

      There wasn't a 'big' map before now because the assessments (as noted elsewhere in these postings) take considerable skill & time. It will not be until the surveyers and the structural engineers get together and measure each building against known locations that we'll really know what will become of some of these buildings. The risks to be still standing buildings are by no means over yet. No one knows the damage that has been done below goround -- nor will we for weeks to come. There are many stories about earthquake damaged buildings that looked fine but had failed foundations in the literature -- those kinds of problems will have to be found by non /.ers who have gone to school for a zillion years. Just because you're in a building and it appears to be working 'ok' doesn't mean that it will ultimately not be raised because its foundation is unsafe.

      -

      Now for the creeper part of this posting. Have a look at New York City Mayor's Office of Emergency Management [nyc.ny.us]. It is amazing that the rescue and recovery is going so smoothly when the people charged with the problem are office-less.

      And finally to the scum below that said "rescuers took to long". They've hurt post-collapse several hundred rescuers already with many hundred if not thousands more to be hurt. The site is extremely dangerous in terms of both individual hazards like sharp objects and biohazard as well as bigger hazards like debris piles collapsing, fires or even some of the still standing frames collapsing. They are making a trade-off between danger and speed and their families will argue they're already going too fast. To you (the scum) I say go enlist so you can be canon fodder someplace where we won't miss your /. postings.

      -- Multics

  • Impact of falling buildings (Score:3, Informative)

    by MGKoch ( 465944 ) <michael@monoklon.de> on Sunday September 23, 2001 @12:40PM (#2337882) Homepage
    On a somewhat related note, a German news channel stated today that the impact of the falling WTC was 1/25 of the power of a A-bomb. That's massively, if you take into consideration that the whole energie is unsealed within a place with one of the highest population densities in the world.
    • I'm sure they didn't call it "peachy keen".
    • I'm not a specialist but that doesn't mean much to me. A kiloton A-Bomb? a 10kiloton one like the one dropped on hiroshima? a 1Megaton a Bomb?
    • A fertilizer plant blew up in Toulouse last week. Buildings have been destroyed in about half a mile radius, and no glass window in a 10 mile radius is still standing! 300 tons of fertilizer blew up initially, probably even more in the neighbouring buildings, and a rocket solid fuel manufactoring facility got blewn up as well. 30 schools destroyed in the area.

      I wonder how much bigger this was. Weird shit. People thought it was a terrorist attack, but it might just be an accident.

  • Verizon Building (Score:2, Interesting)

    by jaredcat ( 223478 )
    The Verizon Building shown in the detail map is aparently where my company's T1 is routed from. We went down for about 4 hours on the day of the attack, and that building is still marked as 'severely damaged'. I guess losing your Internet connection isn't nearly as bad as losing your life, your loved ones, or even your office space-- but its still not a trip through the park.

    Has anyone else been affected by the damage to Verizon's infrastructure? Does anyone know if they rerouted the lines to go somewhere else?
    • Yes, a lot of things go through that building. The company I work for had a TON of DSL circuits that routed through there. There was at least one redback in that building, and those connected to those were routed through a 300 mile change to another redback that was available. Those customers are still having latency from such long PVC's.


      Verizon, and the CLEC's that service in that area will not dispatch to that building at all. Many of the people connected through that building did not lose their connections until power followed by the exhaustion of the generators fuel in that building. I took angry calls from customers in the NYC area who thought they were not affected by the bombing because they didn't drop until approx 12 hours later. Some were persistant and demanding we send somebody to fix their line, but the majority were understanding of our position.


      As for PTP they are a bit harder to re-route. I understand that Verizon was able to restore partial service with priority going to high-end circuits. Probably why you have service back. Realize though that only volunteers are allowed into the building, and Verizon from what I heard is not taking ANY work order requests. So if you go down again, and the problem is in that building, you probably won't come back up for a while.

    • Our ISP, where I work, has been pretty much been shut down due to the attack. They were located downtown manhattan ( NYC != Manhattan alone :P ). Luckily, our CTO was a little bit ahead of the game and we've always had a backup T1 that goes through Globix. Lesson learned? Even if its an ISDN line, hell, even a modem.. have a backup resource for your company. Well, maybe not a modem.. but DSL would be a nice backup too :) Just to get the email and access to our own sites running until we are back to normal. Well.. back to normal if Promenet comes back up :(
    • Thank you for psting this (simple) logic. Really, I mean it (it never even occured to me...). I couldn't figure out for the life of me why I've been getting some seriously HORRIBLE throughput to some ftp servers in Europe (sunet.se & free.fr). I just thought maybe it was Nimda clogging things up. After reading this, I ran some traceroutes and found that my electrons go through New York city. That would certainly explain it...

      Thank you for the enlightment. Someone mod this up.
  • It's real world Sim City! Major metropolis, major disaster with collapsed buildings, all rendered in an iso 3D view! Looks like they've got the damage overlay up...
    • watch out for Godzilla and UFOs...
    • Some of you people pick on Micheal for his arguably poor choice of the word "nifty", but then makes jokes about how "cool" it is resembling a Sim City game. That seems far worse in taste than Micheal's inadvertant choice in words.

      Besides, I think the thought and effort the artist put into the map to help us visualize this disaster was pretty nifty...
      • Besides, I think the thought and effort the artist put into the map to help us visualize this disaster was pretty nifty...

        I hate to even admit it but, AFTER letting the horrific reality of what the pics were showing sink into my head, my first thought was "I wonder what package they used to do that with?" They really are some seriouly detailed graphics...

  • Pictures from inside one of the buildings (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 23, 2001 @12:54PM (#2337914)
    Some pictures taken by someone in our company who was allowed into 3 World Financial Center (the blue-coded building w/ the pyramid roof) have been circulated around the co. in email. I've posted them here [hazyhills.com]. I just added a link to CNN's map on that page.
  • Is just amazing. I hope the effort goes well. And we all come out of this stronger. I hope we all see that most of problems that we have are very petty and start working on making ourselfs better.

  • Canada's Scotia Bank will be glad to see this problem being worked on. A division of Scotia in the US had been storing a huge amount of gold and silver in vaults under the WTC.

    I wonder if anyone is going to attempt to lift this before the authorities can get to it? That would be one hell of an engineering feat, not to mention logistical nightmare. But, I suppose, not impossible...

    • I wonder if anyone is going to attempt to lift this before the authorities can get to it? That would be one hell of an engineering feat, not to mention logistical nightmare. But, I suppose, not impossible...

      That was a major plot device in Die Hard III. If I remember correctly, they used a tunnel boring machine [blsalptransit.ch] to dig from the bombed subway station inside the bank. Conceivably, in our case, the villains could use a similar machine to bore through the "bathtub" walls into the rubble. However, they'd need to face the same water problems than the regular excavation workers would, and they'd have the additional problem of bringing such heavy equipment near the site without raising suspicions...

      • they'd have the additional problem of bringing such heavy equipment near the site without raising suspicions

        Hide it in plain sight. There's already so much equipment there, who'd care about a few more?
    • I can't find the cite but read a debunking of the gold-in-WTC meme the other day. Apparently there did used to be some very large quantity in the complex but it was moved some years ago.

      Unless someone can provide a reliable reference I'm gonna call this an urban legend.

  • Now we're slashdotting CNN.com. As if they didn't have enough web requests to worry about.

    ~LoudMusic
  • The U.S. Geological survey has a "nifty" page describing it's efforts in"finding those fractures that have a high hydraulic conductivity" [usgs.gov]. Maybe they can map the wall to see if there are any cracks.

  • Map is BS... (Score:2, Informative)

    by Hagabard ( 461385 )
    My office is in a building which appears in the deep-ocre colored section; lower, right-hand corner - listed as "damaged but stable". I've been in the building working all last week and besides the fact that they're hestitant to run the AC (too much dust) there's nothing wrong with it.

    Maybe they classify dusty filter systems as "damaged"?

    • Re:Map is BS... (Score:1, Flamebait)

      by dstone ( 191334 )
      Maybe they classify dusty filter systems as "damaged"?

      More domestic damage helps fuel the war effort. Each forthcoming story of damage and loss will tug at our hearts and allow us to inflict more damage on the primary suspects.
      • but on the not-so-cynical side, "damage" has a wide range of meanings and uses. Ask any insurance salesman. And thats another point: by casting the net wide on what they classify as damage, they are fiddling with the end bill that is created as a result from all the devastation.* Think of the insurance claim this is.... Thats real money, and the only question is will it cripple an already down-in-the-mouth economy, or will the "war machine" generate the dough Bush is looking for?

        *sounds kinda like what they do in "hacker trials" (or some may say "selective justice")

        -
    • I also noticed (albeit a less-relevant mistake) that the color prescribed for non-affected buildings is white in the legend, but on the actual images, those buildings are colored gray. Sure, no big deal, but you'd think that a relatively "scientific" chart wouldn't have such a glaring mistake.
    • Just because you can't _SEE_ structural damage doesn't mean that there isn't any.
  • Did you guys notice. They renewed their contract with Akamai. The map is served through them. So did CNN notice that a single company cannot serve the immense volume that these terrible times demand?

  • List of Names Censored? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by sprok8 ( 249285 )
    I've been through all the Lists of Victims posted on the web site, and I noticed that there is not one Arabian sounding name listed!

    CNN does say these are partial lists, but does that mean that all Arabian sounding names are automatically on the suspect list? Or is this a CNN version of ClearChannel-type censorship?

    • Uh (Score:2)

      by FallLine ( 12211 )
      I went through part of the list last week and saw at least a handful of clearly Arabic sounding names. Furthermore, even if the percentage of Arabs that perished in the WTC was disproportionate, remember the people that occupied or visited the WTC tended to be more affluent and better educated than most of the population. This is one demographic that the Arabic population simply does not have proportional representation in the US (especially those with such clear cultural and religious ties). In other words, it's not suprising.

      If you're trying to suggest some kind of conspiracy (as some of the repliers do) including Arabs at the WTC or at large, I don't buy it. At best, the terrorists would be taking a big risk. At worst, they'd surely be detected. Where it may be difficult or impossible for the US intelligence agencies to detect 50 or so handpicked people conspiring (with limited information, if we're to believe the "terrorist cell" theory), it would be highly improbable that the media, FBI, CIA, or some other agency would not pickup on large scale conspiracy of that sort.

  • Not offtopic, but a Sidebar (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dbCooper0 ( 398528 ) <<ten.notirt> <ta> <cbd>> on Sunday September 23, 2001 @01:48PM (#2338046) Journal
    I posted this as a story, but since I never get published here, I thought it necessary to include in a recent thread that is still about "America"

    As the father of a son aboard a smaller destroyer and whose enlistment buddy is aboard another larger one, I was priviledged to receive this copy of an email from an ensign aboard the USS Winston Churchill [navy.mil]. An uplifting piece of sentiment - compared to Steven Erlanger's recent story, which you can read here [nytimes.com]

    Dear Dad,

    Well, we are still out at sea, with little direction as to what our next priority is. The remainder of our port visits, which were to be centered around max liberty and goodwill to the United Kingdom, have all but been cancelled. We have spent every day since the attacks going back and forth within imaginary boxes drawn in the ocean, standing high-security watches, and trying to make the best of our time. It hasn't been that fun I must confess, and to be even more honest, a lot of people are frustrated at the fact that they either can't be home, or we don't have more direction right now. We have seen the articles and the photographs, and they are sickening. Being isolated as we are, I don't think we appreciate the full scope of what is happening back home, but we are definitely feeling the effects.

    About two hours ago the junior officers were called to the bridge to conduct Shiphandling drills. We were about to do a man overboard when we got a call from the LUTJENS(D185), a German warship that was moored ahead of us on the pier in Plymouth, England. While in port, the WINSTON S CHURCHILL and the LUTJENS got together for a sports day/cookout on our fantail, and we made some pretty good friends.

    Now at sea they called over on bridge-to-bridge,requesting to pass us close up on our port side, to say goodbye. We prepared to render them honors on the bridgewing, and the Captain told the crew to come topside to wish them farewell. As they were making their approach, our Conning Officer announced through her binoculars that they were flying an American flag. As they came even closer, we saw that it was flying at half-mast.

    The bridgewing was crowded with people as the Boatswain's Mate blew two whistles- Attention to Port- the ship came up alongside and we saw that the entire crew of the German ship were manning the rails, in their dress blues. They had made up a sign that was displayed on the side that read "We Stand By You".

    Needless to say there was not a dry eye on the bridge as they stayed alongside us for a few minutes and we cut our salutes. It was probably the most powerful thing I have seen in my entire life and more than a few of us fought to retain our composure. It was a beautiful day outside today.

    We are no longer at liberty to divulge over unsecure e-mail our location, but we could not have asked for a finer day at sea. The German Navy did an incredible thing for this crew, and it has truly been the highest point in the days since the attacks. It's amazing to think that only a half-century ago things were quite different,and to see the unity that is being demonstrated throughout Europe and the world makes us all feel proud to be out here doing our job.

    After the ship pulled away and we prepared to begin our man overboard drills the Officer of the Deck turned to me and said "I'm staying Navy."

    I'll write you when I know more about when I'll be home, but for now, this is probably the best news that I could send you. Love you guys.

  • you know, this looks alot like a SimCity map.
  • I noticed on maps that the American Express building was one of those severly damaged. As I depend on my card heavily I was relieved that it still worked, although I suppose much of that activity is still in Chicago.


    I did receive an email from Amex to the effect that they have been affected, but all financial services would be fine. Guess those people understand the value of mirror sites, but the disruption is business, seeking office space, setting up new information systems, etc. will be felt, I'm positive.

    • A Special Message from Ken Chenault - CEO of American Express Company
      Date:
      Sat, 22 Sep 2001 00:12:26 MDT
      From:
      "American Express"
      To:
      [snip]

      Dear Valued Customer,

      We have all been deeply affected by the tragic events of September
      11th. To all the families who mourn the loss of loved ones, our
      prayers are with you.

      Like so many in our country, we will forever be indebted to all
      those who have given so much in responding to last week's tragic
      events. Personally, I have grieved the loss, applauded the
      courage, and been inspired by the sacrifice of so many for the good
      of us all.

      I want to reassure you that despite some damage to our New York
      headquarters building, we have continued to service our customers
      on an uninterrupted basis. Our 85,000 employees worldwide are doing
      everything possible to provide our customers any help they need.

      You can continue to use your American Express Card with confidence
      for your personal and business needs. The same is true for
      American Express Travelers Cheques. Our 1,700 consumer travel
      service locations and business travel offices around the world, as
      always, stand ready to help you. Clients of American Express
      Financial Advisors can also be sure that their records are safe.
      We encourage those clients to call their advisors if they have
      questions about their investments.

      American Express has always stood behind our customers in times of
      need. I want to assure you that the global strength and commitment
      of American Express stands by you now. If there is anything we can
      do for you or your family, call us at any time at the telephone
      number on the back of your card, one of the numbers listed below,
      or visit our website at http://www.americanexpress.com.

      Kenneth I. Chenault
      Chairman and CEO
      American Express Company

  • More images (Score:3, Informative)

    by Smack ( 977 ) on Sunday September 23, 2001 @03:56PM (#2338439) Homepage
    An article [nytimes.com] from today's NY Times has disturbing topographic images [nytimes.com] of the site generated using lidar.
  • That 3D picture is just a fancier version of the
    official map from the New York City Emergency Mapping Center. [nyc.gov]
  • Today's New York Times has an article [nytimes.com] linking to images derived from infrared laser measurements taken from a plane orbiting 5,000 ft ASL. The link is the first one in the "multimedia" box.

  • I've been struck by the comparison to SimCity as well, ever since I saw the original high-rez satellite photos at http://www.spaceimaging.com and loaded them up in Photoshop. As I was zooming in, I noticed the buildings were all showing that orthagonal 45 degree angle look, and as I zoomed in or out, the SimCity parallel really struck me.

    The NYTimes has also done some interesting graphics, like http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/index_OFFI CE.html and these sort of remind me of SimTower.
  • there's a discrepancy on CNN's page :

    this page [cnn.com] shows 5 WTC being "in danger of collapse"

    but this page [cnn.com] shows it as either "collapsed or destroyed"

    which case is true?

  • Foreign Deaths at the WTC (Score:3, Informative)

    by White Shade ( 57215 ) on Monday September 24, 2001 @09:38AM (#2340947)
    Is anyone aware of the fact that more British nationals died in the WTC than have in most, if not all, the IRA bombings in London (or the rest of the UK), ever?

    Tons of non-americans died in the WTC, a fact that i haven't heard mentioned on the news at all..

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