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Tridge Speaks Out 86

Robert McMillan from Linux Magazine posted an interview with Tridge, of Samba and Tivo fame. He's one of the most important folks in all of Linux, and this interview is worth a read. He covers a lot of good material like crap code, bonobo, and what stuff in the kernel is innovative. He also talks a bit about what he might do after Microsoft drops SMB from future versions of windows.
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Tridge Speaks Out

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  • Why do I feel like I have read this interview before? Hmm, July 2001. A little older than I expected. I guess that Linux magazine just put this up.

    Well, the interview is cool anyway. I really like the attitudes of most people who develop free software.

  • from the article:

    " . . . (who recently jumped ship from Linuxcare to work at VA Linux Systems) . . ."

    this guy has made some stunningly bad career choices. I hope, for his sakes, Australia has a decent welfare system. Sheesh!

  • Great quote (Score:5, Funny)

    by jdludlow ( 316515 ) on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:02AM (#2405715)
    Coming to a sig file near you:

    You end up exchanging dozens of e-mails, where you say, "That's bad because of this and this," and they say, "Oh no, this programming style is great." Then you have got to teach them a couple of years of computer science so they can understand why it's crap.

    • Coming to a sig file near you:

      Actually, the 120 character limitation of /. .sigs would reduce the above to the following:

      You end up exchanging dozens of e-mails, where you say, "That's bad because of this and this," and they say, "Oh no, thi

      Doesn't have quite the same impact does it? ;)
  • by heroine ( 1220 ) on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:07AM (#2405726) Homepage
    As far as I know VA I.O.U. eliminated all their programmers, including the Australian group. Conspicuously absent from the interview is #1 whether he's employed and whether open source projects contributed anything positive to his employment prospects and #2 how he's handled liability for the use of Samba.

  • No TiVo questions (Score:4, Interesting)

    by displacer ( 136053 ) on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:10AM (#2405733)
    Why didn't they ask him about tivo? They mention his Tivo hacking in the into but then, leave the readers hanging.
  • by gowen ( 141411 ) <gwowen@gmail.com> on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:10AM (#2405737) Homepage Journal
    Is here. [linux-mag.com]

    Hmm, you'd think a "printer friendly" version would remove JPGs of Unix-nerds. No one wants to print those out. Actually, I'd be happy if that were the only thing it did.
    • I believe the reason they leave pictures in is to try to make the reader un-aware that there's an ad at both the top and bottom of the article. In other words, make it seem like the ads are just part of the pictures, like in the article.

      BTW, FWIW, some people might call you a karma-whore for posting a printer-friendly page link, but i would have done the same thing, since people complained about it being /.'ed already.
  • by MaxwellStreet ( 148915 ) on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:18AM (#2405756)
    All the interesting positions in Linux are taken?

    In the kernel, perhaps, and low-level network services. The barrier to entry is high there, and for the best possible reasons. The OS has become a phenomenon - and very very bright people continue to contribute. Lesser lights need not apply until they're more seasoned.

    But that doesn't mean that there are applications out there. Many beautiful tools exist - but truly widespread adoption of Linux will require not just killer applications, but also many, many mundane little applications to fill all the niches where little Windows apps fit.

    We all know about StarOffice/OpenOffice. But. . .

    A really nice accounting package? A little one, like QuickBooks? Contact managers like GoldMine? Bigger CRM applications with all the bells and whistles?

    These are projects that are begging to worked on, and completed. (And yes, I know that good work is being done on all these fronts already).

    And these are just the sorts of projects that would convince people (at my company at least) to ditch Windows on the desktop once and for all. Even management is becoming painfully aware of Microsoft's hardball tactics, with this latest round of forced upgrades.

    There are plenty of crucial positions left in Linux development. Only the shift is now moving away from the kernel and services, and toward real business applications.

    Truly an exciting time. And we're only in the 2nd inning of the revolution.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Forget all the other replies to this post. The entire idea of Linux and it's You-Want-It-You-Build-It approach is very silly. If I want a tool that I can't build, I can certainly encourage others to make it through other means of assistance, IE - software/hardware donations, monetary donations, other project investments and involvement...

      Linux is being held back not only by its lack of quality offerings in a few software genres (Such as the aforementioned QuickBooks), but also by the utter *glut* of offerings in some of the other areas. It's really daunting for some people that most Linux distributions come on five or six CDs and Windows only comes on one. I thought distributions were supposed to be like customized toolsets for different people and different situations. If this is the case, then why do all the distributions have almost all the same software?

      Hear hear, man. Mod parent UP.
    • One word: AutoCAD.

      (Someone showed me a non-Free, relatively cheap CAD package for Linux, but I'm suggesting a GPL equivalent).
    • A really nice accounting package? A little one, like QuickBooks? Contact managers like GoldMine? Bigger CRM applications with all the bells and whistles?

      Those are not fun. Amateurs/hackers work on fun things. If you want non-fun things, you have to pay someone to do it.

      • Depends on your definition of fun. Personally I get a lot of satisfaction/enjoyment/warm-fuzzies from building stuff that people use.

        As i'm sure others do too.

        If enough people make enough noise about wating package X, someone will go write it. I promise.
      • I think the problem is a little different than the project being "fun" or not.

        Me? My team and I built and maintain a homegrown oracle-based solution that stitches together contact management, accounting, and production management for a little manufacturing firm here in Chicago.

        I find these things... fun.

        The problem is - it takes a lot of expertise and insight (garnered only through painful experience) to build applications heavy in accounting and business-logic functions . . . expertise that goes beyond what is normally taught in a CS program in school.

        And recruiting people with expertise outside the computer science realm into open source development (without paying them - your point is well taken here) can be really difficult.

        There just aren't that many people with cross-disciplinary expertise who aren't buried in paying-job-type work and who are willing to donate to the cause.

    • There are plenty of crucial positions left in Linux development. Only the shift is now moving away from the kernel and services, and toward real business applications.

      I think you're confusing your definition of "Linux" with "Unix".

      The farther away from the kernel you get, the less Linux-specific your program is. That's why you mentioned the kernel and low-level networking programs.

      Say I write one of your suggested projects, which you say is to fill the gap in the Linux application field and which you say will make me a Linux developer. What happens when somebody takes my source code, compiles it on a FreeBSD workstation and runs my little application? Oops! Does that mean I'm a FreeBSD developer now?

      Development on top of free operating systems shouldn't be done from such a narrow viewpoint. When it comes to computing professionals who like to be able to run a computer without running to the Micros~1 Store for an operating system first, you could say that "we're all in the same boat".
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:22AM (#2405767)
    If you're a company that is trying to compete directly against a free product, you're in trouble.

    Now I understand why all those Linux companies went bankrupt. They were competing against each other!
  • by sid_vicious ( 157798 ) on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:27AM (#2405785) Homepage Journal
    Actually, I would like to have asked him if he still receives occasional "pizza payments" for Samba.

    Don't know if it still says it, but in the old docs for Samba, they used to have an address where you could FedEx pizza donations to the Samba team.

    Now *that's* my idea of compensation. Free as in beer? Well, what goes better with free beer than free pizza!
  • by huh69 ( 57503 ) on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @09:43AM (#2405829) Homepage
    I must say that Andrew seems to be very aware of Samba's direction and future. He also seems to be very honest about the delevopment-to-date. I really liked how he points out the learning phases, from concept to write to rewrite that Samba has taken over the years. My only concern would be that as awesome as Samba is, that Microsoft would dump the SMB protocol completely, rendering the current implementations useless with newer Microsoft OS'. Right now, my employer (like most other employers) use Windows on its servers and desktops, the only exceptions are the CAD designer's that I and my buddy take care of, but we have Samba running on our Sun E450, authenticating to our Windows PDC and it works great. It be really suck if they upgrade our Windows servers to a newer version that doesn't support SMB, but that would just be the next challenge to software developers to once again try and accomadate Microsoft, and once again prove that no matter what Microsoft does, hackers will always find a way. Hooray for Andrew and all hackers like him.
    • My only concern would be that as awesome as Samba is, that Microsoft would dump the SMB protocol completely, rendering the current implementations useless with newer Microsoft OS'

      It's pretty much a given that they have to do this, someday. Andrew says it's for cleanliness/performance reasons. But another reason is that the more widely adopted a standard is, the more dangerous it is for Microsoft to conform. A paranoid person [google.com] might even say Samba's success is the reason SMB must die.

      • I really liked the link you posted, this guy definately puts some humor to an otherwise serious situation, and makes a valid point doing it. So I would have to agree with you that M$ would find it in their best interest to change the protocol they use for file sharing to prevent such a hypothetical situation from becoming reality. That would be detrimental to them. Good point.
    • My only concern would be that as awesome as Samba is, that Microsoft would dump the SMB protocol completely, rendering the current implementations useless with newer Microsoft OS

      I don't think they CAN make it completely unusable with previous versions of SMB or else no previous Windows products could work with it either, unless you're forced to download a new networking patch for EVERY Windows PC on your network. Course, if it was installed via the next IE update, then it might work...

      If previous Windows clients can't talk to the new stuff, people will think VERY long about upgrading and having to throw away all the current investment.
    • by AdamBa ( 64128 )
      Microsoft can't drop it entirely. Too many old Windows clients out there only support a given level of SMB and you can't just lock them out from your servers. A DOS 3.3 client can still connect to a Windows 2000 server.

      What will no doubt continue to happen is new versions of SMB that are negotiated between machines if both support them. That DOS 3.3 client winds up talking a much simpler version of SMB than a Windows 2000 client would negotiate with a Windows 2000 server. So eventually you discover that your old clients don't support some fancy new feature or performance enhancement. But they should continue to work as they have.

      When I worked at Microsoft there were stories that SMB would be dropped in favor of something else. One of these was the famous "HTTP redirector", which would be a client that connected to a web server to replace SMB. One big advantage of HTTP is that it allows a file to be read with one single network roundtrip. SMB separates out the operations of open, read, and close a file (those take up 3 separate SMBs). Now the protocol also allows SMBs to be combined in a single request, but various cruftiness that have built up in the protocol prevents you from actually packaging an open, read, and close in one packet and getting a response back with all the data in one roundtrip. This "small file read" test is a favorite of labs doing performance tests, so although HTTP is slightly larger and slower to parse, that all winds up being noise compared to doing the whole small file read in one roundtrip.

      Unfortunately HTTP has some *disadvantages*, in particular a lot of the other semantics supported in SMB, like printing and locks and various security protocols, are not supported, so those would have to be invented. The push for an HTTP redirector seemed to be coming from the Internet Explorer and IIS teams (I worked on NT). In fact one IIS person confidently told me about 4 years ago that SMB was doomed. But it continues to live on and the various HTTP redirector projects seem to have stalled. But for all I know it is still bubbling around somewhere (or several places) at Microsoft.

      - adam

  • by Anonymous Coward
    interview with Tridge, of Samba and Tivo fame. He's one of the most important folks in all of Linux,

    Someone needs a sound beating with a clue stick. Samba has NOTHING to do with Linux. Samba is an open sourced SMB fileserver. It can run on most any UNIX box, so it runs on things like AIX, BSD, Solaris, SCO, etc la. It also happens to run on any of the 180+ linux distros.

    Unless Linux is now a blanket term for any code that might run on some random Linux distro.
  • Did no one else notice that this interview is from July? I think /.'s already posted this once before. Reading over the interview, I know that I've read this before...
  • Okay, this is so far the second place I've seen this mentioned. Does anyone have any more info on Microsoft dropping SMB? Info on what they'll allegedly replace it with? I haven't been able to dig up any real dirt on this, and I haven't gotten more than hearsay, this snippet here and a mention in passing by an Apple sales guy. Any info would be helpful.
    • Okay, this is so far the second place I've seen this mentioned. Does anyone have any more info on Microsoft dropping SMB? Info on what they'll allegedly replace it with? I haven't been able to dig up any real dirt on this, and I haven't gotten more than hearsay, this snippet here and a mention in passing by an Apple sales guy. Any info would be helpful.

      I don't think the're going to get that monkey off their back for a while. There's a lot of stuff funneled through CIFS (aka SMB). You've got NamedPipes, RAP calls, transactions, DCE/RPC, .. etc. It would be quite a headache to decouple all of that stuff. I have not heard *anything* about ditching it entirely. It would immediatedly render the default install of any of their OSs useless with the new product. Besides, there is a fairly substantial CIFS community at the moment. You have EMC, Netapp, Unisys, and others. Not gonna happen soon.
  • I have a lot of respect for people like tridge. They do what they do not for money or fame ... but because they kicks out it! I hope a lot of open source software stays this way. I'm still a student and had the luck privelege of being taught an operating systems subject by tridge at the ANU (our assignments involved hacking the kernel!). It was also great hanging out out a linux user group meetings where tridge was talking about how he was reverse engineering bits of the tivo to get it to work with PAL tv (before they were thinking about networking it)- soldering leds to the board and stuff like that. It is really inspiring, but he has a point when talking about students and their contribution to development, where does a fumbling student get to make a real difference these days?
  • One thing I'd like to say is that Open Source software helps you develop the tools you need as well as making a product you can sell.

    especially for the scripted languages

    By producing an ever increasingly complex domain for us to work in benefits the whole human race. It's a very political position to be in.
    It doesn't depress the job market, it creates niche and opportunity within businesses.

    The future is rosy for IT save for no electricity!

    don't close the source and hold me to ransom, that isn't nice.

    I heard someone say that you should expect government ministers lie because "that's the way the world works". bleh, it doesn't have to.

  • by ACK!! ( 10229 ) on Tuesday October 09, 2001 @11:47AM (#2406631) Journal
    From the interview:

    AT: It depends how related it is. If Microsoft does a completely new protocol, it would make far more sense to have a second package. Whether I do that package or not depends on how stupid I feel at the time.

    LM: How stupid do you feel right now?

    BWAHAHAHA!!

    " . . . (who recently jumped ship from Linuxcare to work at VA Linux Systems) . . ."

    I wanted his answer to be, " really stupid considering the companies I have worked for lately."

    Nah, can't get that lucky.

  • He marked some of mine when I took his Operating Systems Unit at Uni.

    How I supposed to know you shouldn't use 'float' in the kernel. The code worked, that was good enough for me. Still not 100% sure I know why this is the case.

A physicist is an atom's way of knowing about atoms. -- George Wald

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