Zhang Fei Temple Digitally Remastered 108
gtaylor writes: "The Globe and Mail reports that the Three Gorges Zhang Fei Temple in China will be disassembled before the Three Gorges dam is completed (which will flood the area where the temple stands now), and reassembled somewhere drier. Meanwhile, the Canadian National Research Council has sent over some techs who have scanned the whole complex into super-accurate 3-D models as to be sure of rebuilding the temples precisely as they were."
three gorges (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:three gorges (Score:2)
Re:three gorges (Score:1)
Uh, so you'd rather they didn't scan it and just pretended that nothing was wrong until the day it's under water? The reality is that China wants to build a dam (it is shitty, but at the same time I suppose it's better than a massive coal electric plant with no emissions controls), so whatever anyone can do to preserve what is going to be destroyed is heroic.
Re:three gorges (Score:2)
Re:three gorges (Score:2)
It's frightening to find a government where having sociopathological impulses helps you achieve political power.
I hate federal politics too.
Re:three gorges (Score:2, Insightful)
project politics (Score:3, Interesting)
Although they had to do something as far as their river control problem, this might not have been the best solution
this brings up a philosophical point (Score:1, Troll)
Just like the people who cared about the Buddha statues in Afghanistan, and got the U.N. to protest at levels unheard of since the Taliban came in, the int'l community opposes the dam because of the archeological wonders, not as much the people.
Digital aids in solutions to the problems of the Three Gorges Dam are oriented towards the preservation of a temple, rather than helping the people in the way of the dam.
China gives more of a shit about tourism than its billions of people. It executes thousands of them a year to sell their body parts! And this is the country that we have just given permanent normal trade relations, and let into the W.T.O.
Does the panama canal suck? (Score:2, Insightful)
When you alter nature it has negative effects on something... its benefits just need to be weighed against the negatives.
Millions of people may have to move, but it is obviously of some benefit or wouldn't be being built. Like moving people off an island and declaring it deserted so it can be used as a US military base, damning some other river somewhere, or knocking weeks off travel time by building a canal.. it causes big trouble for some people but benefits so many more.
I don't see how this dam can be equated to the Taliban blowing up budhist statues.
Re:Does the panama canal suck? (Score:2)
The problem isn't just the environmental impact; it's the fact Millions of people may have to move, but it is obviously of some benefit or wouldn't be being built.
You're thinking too rationally. The Communist leaders of China think that China's reputation is more important than the welfare of it's people, and will act accordingly. There are much better ways to control flooding than dams.
Re:Does the panama canal suck? (Score:2)
Re:Does the panama canal suck? (Score:2)
anyone living downstream of the dam.
Re:Does the panama canal suck? (Score:2)
Thats funny. Name them. Why mention there are far better ways and not name them?
Fine. Strengthening levees, spillways, floodways, reforestation, creating more reservoirs, creating a series of smaller dams, creating the same dam but changing it's design, creating the same dam but not making it so incredibly shoddy (the engineer in charge admits that it's not particularly well-made, but claims at this stage that's not important).
Re:Does the panama canal suck? (Score:2)
One of the causes of the flooding is deforestation; by preventing more loss of vegetation, and growing back what you can, you can increase how much water is absorbed before it enters the river. You have to keep in mind that while China is heavily populated, the actual population density isn't particularly high, and the Chinese government already has committed to reforestation projects, realizing their importance.
levees, spillways, floodways - This will only go so far. I do not think it is feasible to do given how many millions of acres flood each moonson season. How many levees, spillways and floodways can you make?
You don't just make new ones; you improve the ones that are already there. I think you're missing the point; the best way to prevent flooding is not in one huge grandiose project, but to improve flood control through a variety of methods. Again, these are also things that the Chinese government has already planned to do; however, I think they're putting too many eggs in the TGP basket.
* creating a series of smaller dams - A serious of smaller dams, while indeed an alternative solution, is not necessarily better. What matters is how well each solution, a big dam, or several smaller, is implemented, and not choosing say smaller dams over one large one. Each solution has its own advantages and problems, one is not clearly better than the other.
Moral relativism doesn't go far in engineering. Yes, a series of smaller dams would be more effective and less costly. It's a better solution. Especially considering you could more adequately control more of the river (the current location of the dam project is upstream from several tributaries, which will limit how effective it can be), they'd be easier and cheaper to make, and a catastrophic failure of one won't threaten as many people as if (or when) the TGD failed.
Again, I think you're missing the point; I'm not saying the TGP dam couldn't help, I'm just saying that the way it's been implemented pretty much dooms it to failure. They have already spent billions of dollars (much of it siphoned off by corrupt officials), and plan on spending tens of billions more. This, in a country that is in a perpetual cash shortage. There's a reason the World Bank refuses to offer any funding, and the US Export-Import bank won't guarantee loans to US companies investing in the project. The TGP is just a horrible idea, executed in one of the worst ways possible, that will most likely fail in its mission, and cost thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives.
Re:Does the panama canal suck? (Score:1)
Re:real philosophical point (Score:2)
I agree, but did you do any better? Compare his inflammatory statement:
executes thousands of them a year to sell their body parts!
with yours:
name them as terrism supporting country and nuke them
It sounds to me like both of you have difficulty expressing an opinion intelligently.
Re:this brings up a philosophical point (Score:2)
oh yeah? 13 million [worldwatch.org] had to move out of the way of the *river* during one of the Yangtze's floods. The dam will control that - so in my opinion it's a good thing.
Re:this brings up a philosophical point (Score:2)
Ah, turned up this page [hrw.org] on human rights watch [hrw.org] with google. An
excerpt:
China's longstanding restrictions on public access to information, debate and decision-making about large dam-construction projects have had fatal consequences in the past. An example was the catastrophic collapse in August 1975 of two large water-conservancy projects in Henan Province, the Banqiao dam and the Shimantan dam. Hitherto almost entirely unreported beyond the confines of China's top party leadership and elite hydrological circles, this event represented by far the largest known dam disaster in human history. In the resulting floods, famine and health epidemics, fatalities amounted to anywhere between 86,000 (the government's internally-released figure) and 230,000 (an estimate produced by eight senior Chinese critics of the Three Gorges project).
Re:this brings up a philosophical point (Score:2)
Yes, those evil Communists(TM) (R) dont even have the decency to scrawl "call 911" in lipstick on the bathroom mirror so they can save themselves when they wake up in a tub of ice...
Re:this brings up a philosophical point (Score:2)
Re:this brings up a philosophical point (Score:2, Insightful)
Before I begin, let me state that I am fundamentally opposed to the Three Gorges project!
Firstly, their human rights record is atrocious, but that has nothing to do with the Three Gorges Project per se, and I don't understand why you mention it in this context (it may also pay to note that the USA executed 85 people in 2000, so its hands are hardly clean (I realise this is far below the scale of China))
Secondly, Large damming projects have often involved moving sections of the population. This is not unique to the Three Gorges Project. in that light, the archaeological treasures (i.e. things not readily moveable) need to have a high priority placed on them (not to the exclusion of the currently living human population). What hasn't been said is what compensation the Chinese government is making to the people it is moving. Without this information, it is hard to say whether they are being unreasonable or not.
thirdly, to say China cares more about tourisim than its billions [sic, its about 1.3 billion] of people is a little odd. Tourism is a revenue generating process (typically FOR the people). Surely by promoting tourism (ideally in a slightly more eco-friendly way than Three Gorges) they are demonstrating that they care for the economic well being of the local people?
Regards
Re:Units confusion (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Units confusion (Score:1)
Officially, everything has been metric since 1970 (Over thirty years ago, or those who can't count.)
CU Research Project (Score:3, Informative)
Re:CU Research Project (Score:1, Funny)
I know how you feel.. (Score:3, Flamebait)
Canada is not *drowning* in debt. We are very well off. We could settle debt very quickly, just by dipping into our *vast* natural resources.
Why don't we? Because we can weather it out.. we don't because we can always do it later.
I think your negative outlook on how 'bad' Canada is would change quickly if you did a wee bit of traveling.
Believe me, if you didn't pay the taxes you pay, you'd be living 100 years in the past. Canada does not have the population base to support low taxation and still maintain the status quo.
So.. if you are willing to give up medical, the social safety net, good roads, relatively honest police, and our good name the world over, keep pushing for lower taxes and less immigration.
Re:I know how you feel.. (Score:1, Funny)
if you don't mind (ot) (Score:1)
Re:Stupid F*%$ing Canadian Government (Score:1)
In the past couple of years the general tax rate of Canada has been declining and is less than most European countries. Indeed in some lower tax areas of Canada the total tax load is lower than some higher tax areas of the US.
What I really want to know (Score:1)
Re:What I really want to know (Score:1)
Unreal Tournament was a more enjoyable game because it had better gameplay, but technically it was quite inferior to Quake 3 (indeed it is more in competition with Quake 2). Carmack is a technology man, and the technology that he creates does tend to be the best.
Re:You are *so* on crack. (Score:1)
Re:What I really want to know (Score:1)
Who Zhang Fei Was (Score:5, Informative)
If you want to know who Zhang Fei was in detail, click here for the story of the Three Kingdoms [threekingdoms.com].
Re:Who Zhang Fei Was (Score:1)
More information on the NRC scanning. (Score:4, Informative)
If you're looking for actual 3D models to view (in VRML) made using this (or similar) technology visit: The AMUSE Project [ic.gc.ca]. It contains 61 3D digital representations of various aboriginal artifacts. Very cool stuff.
The actual scanning resolution is much higher than what you see on the web, of course. The native resolution is incredible.
(Now assuming a certain friend of mine sees this, you'll get a better explanation since he actually worked for one of those companies...)
Abu Simbel (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Abu Simbel (Score:5, Interesting)
> by Ramses the Great. When the Aswan High Dam was about to be built, engineers realized
> the temple would be buried under all of the water flow. So, it was moved to a higher
> location that would be safer. Of course, they did that without the use of
> supercomputers and 3D modelling
I was gonna mention that but you beat me to it. I remember being fascinated as a kid reading the National Geographic article where they showed the whole project in detail. Each block was carefully sliced out of the mountain and numbered for reassembly.
Here's a good link with lots of pictures of Abu Simbel [sbc.edu].
Re:Abu Simbel (Score:1)
The Temple of Dendur is located in the Metropolitan Museum of Art here in NYC; it was a gift from Egypt to the USA for their assistance in building the Aswan dam and handling the many sites that would have been lost to the waters. Think of the Elgin marbles in London, and the long fight between the UK and Greece over where those marbles should live; why should other important pieces or structures be denied to the countries that originally produced them?
Build me a convincing replica, and then I won't have to deal with the Chinese air pollution anyway.
internet version (Score:3, Interesting)
I dunno, I sure don't have the time or means right now to be making a trip to the original Zhang Fei Temple in China, but it sure would neat to be able to do it virtually and walk around in the temple over the Internet on my computer.........plus this way I'd be able to see the temple in its original location like it was built, instead of moved to wherever is convenient after its reconstruction...
(heh, and if they released a Quake 3 map or something like that, that precisely modeled and displayed the original temple, it sure would be hilarious if they served it up too, even though I can't see that actually happening. You'd have the tourists walking around to look at the temple, when campers would jump out with whatever the default weapon is in Quake 3 and start hacking away at them)
(or how about this. They just open sourced Quake 2 right? Maybe that would make it a better medium to be releasing this on than Quake 3, seeing as it's free and all)
Re:internet version (Score:2)
I doubt they will release any of this.
Re:internet version (Score:1)
Well, maybe when Quake 6 comes out...
They should put the 3D Info online (Score:2, Interesting)
So it would show the current conditions of the sites, and if some archeologist(sp?) could create models of what they think it looked like in ancient times. Just like some of the books that have the clear pages that show original and current conditions of the sites.
Re:They should put the 3D Info online (Score:1, Insightful)
"Imagine if they had all this available online, and anyone could explore the ancient cities/structures without all the traveling and expense."
I hate to break this to you, but seeing a scaled down 3d Computer model of the Acroplis and Parthenon is nothing like going to Greece and seeing the thing in real life for yourself. On the computer you get no sense of scale, like when you go there in a person and see it for yourself. This will not save people money travelling. It just does not compare to see a Mayan temple on a 2d computer screen pretending to be 3d dimensional and seeing it in real life.
The Virtual vs. The Real... (Score:1)
The only reason for this would be because we, the users (ok, most of us, but not all) have become used to what are essentially 3D walkthroughs presented on a 2D computer screen, but in such a way as the scale is wrong, the details wrong, as well as one other important factor:
There is no immersion...
Now, for a game, this isn't a big issue. I would even argue that the slight bit of immersion that some players get when the dim the lights down and focus on the game, that it doesn't matter if size, etc are skewed - because it is a game, and hence, fantasy. IE - the players don't care or notice.
But we have the technology TODAY to create a reasonable, to-scale rendering and display of any artifact desirable to be viewed - not only can we view it from the "human-standpoint", but from an ant's, to a giant's! We can view it, fully immersed, as if we were "there". It could be made richly detailed (not perfect, but damn good - even on a PC today).
At the high end, we have CAVEs - at the "lower-end", we have HMDs (though one could easily argue that these could be high end as well - some models, indeed). Both these technologies, coupled with 3D tracking technologies and appropriate 3D sound systems - can achieve a super-high degree of immersion - placing the user "on-site", with the graphics scaled to whatever scale needed.
With today's machines, there should be little lag to mar the performance, and LCDs and miniature CRTs are of sufficiently high-resolution to permit large FOVs in current HMDs.
I am constantly amazed by the ohhs and ahhs over various graphics in 3D games - the speed, the number of FPS, etc - but no one, absolutely no one (outside of the lucky researchers who have CAVEs at their disposal, of course) - seems to want to make the leap of using these systems, these engines, in full immersive environments! It seems ludicrous, at best - tons of gamers willing to let a world slide by them on a window looking in, rather than buying or building HMDs to step into the worlds they play in.
What is holding everyone back? Cost is NOT THE ISSUE ANYMORE...
Ok, AC - that was a little over the top, and NOT aimed at you - your point is completely valid, up to a certain limit (that of your viewpoint of everybody using what amounts to "desktop-VR" systems)...
Is there a sniper's nest? (Score:1)
Are the monks going to be remastered also? (Score:1)
Wish I had one of these scanners (Score:3, Funny)
Quake mod coming soon.
Whoah, use it for games? (Score:1)
I bet they could make some cool game levels from it. How big is it, if its big enough you could even make a whole game out of it: "Mystery of the Zheng Fei Temple"
3D art scanning (Score:3, Interesting)
now all we need.. (Score:1)
No, just a Zhang Fei Temple... (Score:2)
It would be even more interesting to build a replica of the temple in the temple's original location with new materials, and leave it for future archeologists to find.
Re:No, just a Zhang Fei Temple... (Score:2)
It would be even more interesting to build a replica of the temple in the temple's original location with new materials, and leave it for future archeologists to find.
I can see it now: "How the hell did the ancient Chinese create plastic composites without the aid of electricity?" or "Why would somebody build a temple in the river?"
Moving a landmark (Score:1)
Re:Moving a landmark (Score:1)
Or maybe more than one replica could be made - lets all have our own temple!
An over 2000 year old temple?? (Score:1)
Re:An over 2000 year old temple?? (Score:1)
Ancient Buddhist monuments are always older than ancient Christian monuments - its a law of nature.
All your temple are belong to us.