ReplayTV 4500: No Hacking, or Else 357
mcglk writes "I was happy to see that SonicBlue had released its new generation of ReplayTV, the 4500. And it was $250 cheaper than the 4000. Except for that $250 one-time service activation fee. Worse is the agreement that goes along with it. Term1A basically says, No more hacking. Term1G says that they can enable or disable anything they want without notice. And Term2C says that if someone even alleges you are infringing on copyright, you can be shut down with no notice, no recourse, and there's nothing you can do about itthe agreement indemnifies them completely. I was really looking forward to getting one of these, too." Under that agreement, SonicBlue claims the right to destroy your device when you connect for updates.
computer geeks = target market or no? (Score:2, Interesting)
Or, a complete understanding, and overly restrictive agreements to try and somehow compensate?
Shame (Score:2)
an opportunity (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it would be great to start a non-profit technology company.
PVR are perfect examples. How hard is it to build a PVR? With technology today, not too hard. How hard would it be to build one that didn't put all these absurd money-grubbing restrictions on it? not hard at all. How many people would chose to buy a product designed to MAKE CONSUMER'S LIVE BETTER instead of MAKING CORPORATE EXECS and BUSINESS OWNERS RICH?
SocialTech. would you choose it?
Re:an opportunity (Score:2)
Look what happened to the free (!) DVD players for Linux. People are not allowed to write one without paying a licensing fee to the DVD secret holders.
Of course with DeCSS out you can build a DVD player for Linux, but try and sell players based on this code without paying the licensing fees and you'll see hordes of lawyers on your tail.
Also, nobody really needs a PVR. We'd be better off not watching TV at all (or less anyways).
Re:Shame (Score:2)
Of course, it's true that
(InterOffice Memo [telerama.com], emphasis added)
In other words, it's not obvious that nice businesses fail because they're nice. They might fail just because new businesses fail. Likewise, rotten companies get more press and more attention, but that doesn't (necessarily) mean there are more of them or that their rottenness enhances their survivability.
Re:Shame (Score:2)
The idea is to make the sky+ system seem like an alien technology that must not fall into the public's hands but I found it funny for other reasons.
graspee
Does not comply (Score:4, Informative)
Overreaction (Score:5, Informative)
Tivo's Service Agreement [tivo.com]
Re:Overreaction (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, no, they aren't. But lets just say they are for the sake of argument.
Just because an industry decides to go in a certain direction, it doesn't mean it is good for consumers. Alerting consumers to less-than-favorable policies is the first step to putting pressures on companies (and the industry) to change those policies.
Granted, consumers have to give a damn. In most consumer markets, issues like this are lost on the masses of that market. However, PVRs still remain an early-adopter market. Early adopters tend to be more tech-savvy and an issue like this may register to that market.
Re:Overreaction (Score:2, Insightful)
Consumers don't have to do anything. Especially they don't have to buy a product they don't like, or agree to terms they find unfair. But if they accept an agreement without bothering to read it they are just plain stupid and deserve what happens.
On the other hand, Sonic blue can ask you to agree to anything they fucking like. If they make money out of it they'll keep doing it.
Re:Overreaction (Score:5, Insightful)
Once again
Why should they be?
Because healthy, happy, non-screwed-over customers:
* Buy more products and services from them in the future; and
* Tell their friends and acquaintances how great the company is, and encourage other people to become customers; and
* Don't involve the company in expensive lawsuits.
Well-run businesses that take the long-term view realize this and treat their customers with respect. After all, the customers are the people who are feeding them.
The trouble is, poorly run businesses are rampant, and almost nobody cares what they're doing 20 years from now. Most companies don't seem to look much farther than next year (many no farther than next quarter).
Do you want the whole world to be looking out for you? Oh no, you can't have a car that goes too fast, you might crash! You can't have inline skates, people have broken bones with those!
This is off-topic fluff, we're not talking about laws designed to "protect" you whether you like it or not, we're talking about a company reserving the right to screw their customers royally, taking their money and withholding service, and hiding this fact in the fine print of a contract they expect less than 5% of their market to read.
You can't have a home loan because it would be unfair to make you pay interest!
This one is actually on topic. Many strict Christian (and I assume other religions) sects consider Usury (the charging of interest) to be a sin. In the early days of the US, many of the northeast states had laws written by strict Christian fundamentalists, and it was actually illegal to loan money for interest. As the population became less fundimentalist, the people made a conscious decision to allow limited Usury (there still are limits on how much interest can be charged) for the practical consideration of having a market for loans.
Consumers don't have to do anything. Especially they don't have to buy a product they don't like, or agree to terms they find unfair. But if they accept an agreement without bothering to read it they are just plain stupid and deserve what happens.
People have been conditioned (I suspect deliberately) to not read boilerplate contracts. They are long, hard to read, and often oddly worded to make them more confusing. More and more often lately, most people only have access to read the contract after they have already paid their money.
While this contract is actually accessible online, most consumers won't even see it until after they've already shelled out $450 for the product. Not agreeing to it means they will have to return their product, something that is anywhere from annoying to impossible depending on the circumstances.
On the other hand, Sonic blue can ask you to agree to anything they fucking like. If they make money out of it they'll keep doing it.
Actually, they can't. There are laws limiting what can be agreed to in contracts. In most states, there are laws further limiting what can be "agreed" to in a non-negotiated contract (such as a boilerplate terms of service). I am not a lawyer, but I suspect if they use this agreement to disable the device of a New York State customer within 90 days of the customer purchasing the product, they will be in violation of NYS law.
Re:Overreaction (Score:2)
Except in Delaware, which has No Usury laws. Which is why there are alot of banks and credit card companies based in delaware.
Re:Overreaction (Score:2)
Re:Overreaction (Score:2)
...
* Don't involve the company in expensive lawsuits.
Someone will always sue.
Re:Overreaction (Score:2)
There would be far less outcry if they were just talking about stopping the service if they didn't like you (assuming these boxes are useful without the service), but they are reserving the right to actively disable the box that you spent at least $450 to own. I consider this immoral.
Re:Overreaction (Score:3)
If you don't like usury, don't borrow money.
Actually, those who are religiously opposed to Usury can't receive interest either, which makes it very difficult for them to get bank accounts, but that's a tangent.
If you don't like the agreement, return your ReplayTV.
Returns are at best annoying, at worst they can be impossible, depending on the store and where you live. Some stores in some states won't accept returns except under very specific circumstances, and "not liking the service agreement" isn't one of them.
Are you deliberately being stupid? So you don't like the fact that they can "actively disable the box that you spent at least $450 to own" - then WHY THE FUCK DID YOU SPEND $450!!! You IDIOT! Who FORCED you to buy, and keep, a ReplayTV!
I am more familiar with Tivo than ReplayTV, I am assuming ReplayTV is similar enough for my argument to make sense. If I go to the store to buy a Tivo, I have a very useful and flexible digital recording device, if I pay for the Tivo service then my digital recording device also knows alot about upcoming shows. If I cancel my service, I still have a useful device it just doesn't know about upcoming shows anymore.
My limited understanding is that older ReplayTV boxes are the same way. This new box with the new service agreement has the added "feature" of, if someone accuses me of copyright infringment, then with no due process I not only have no service, but they've made my device not work as well, no refund. No actual infringement is necessary, just someone accusing you of breaking a civil law against someone unaffiliated with ReplayTV.
My cable provider has no right to destroy my TV, my "Digital TV Guide" provider has no right to destroy my digital recorder. A non-negotiated contract should not be sufficient to give them that right.
Your morals are no basis for forcing anyone to offer you a contract that you like.
My morals are a basis for what I will and won't accept, which is the whole basis of a contract. My morals are also one of the guides I use in deciding which laws I do and don't support.
While Contract Law has a great deal of breadth and power, it is not limitless. This is a Contract of Adhesion (i.e. no negotiation has taken place), and the power of such contracts is even more limited. I feel it is (or if not, it ought to be) Unconscionable [findlaw.com]for such a contract, where I am merely purchasing a service, to give someone the right to damage or destroy my property. Actual negotiation for mutually agreeable terms is required before I can accept that I have agreed to give someone the right to destroy my property.
Re:Overreaction (Score:2)
The point of publicizing their license agreement, in case you hadn't noticed, is precisely to prevent this from happening.
They're pretty close though (Score:4, Informative)
Well, why don't we simply READ the two and note that at least two of three are the same.
Replay 1A: A. Authorized Product. You may access and use the ReplayTV Service only with a ReplayTV 4500 product authorized to receive the ReplayTV Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product.
Tivo: Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product....
Replay 1G:
G. Changes to ReplayTV Service. At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice. In addition, ReplayTV may modify the terms and conditions of this Agreement from time to time (and will notify you of these changes to the Agreement)
Tivo: Changes to TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.
Okay, so there's no easy direct correlation for Replay's 2C Clause. Still...
Re:They're pretty close though (Score:4, Informative)
Tivo: Changes to TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.
They say they can change TIVO SERVICE. Not your tivo. They can stop doing season passes, stop giving you guide data, whatever they want. But they NEVER claim to be able to disable your tivo.
Replay says they can mess with your replay unit at any time, even disable it.
THAT is the difference.
Warranty call in mcglk and michael's world (Score:5, Funny)
michael: "My Replay isn't working, smoke is coming out of it!"
Replay: "Really, what happened?"
michael: "I was trying to overclock it with a home brewed water cooled system like I saw on slashdot and spilled water everywhere!"
Replay: "Holy shit, sir. We'll send another $500 box to your house for free!"
muchael: "Cool. I'm gonna try to submerge the new one in a fishtank."
Replayl: "Awesome, do you believe the corporate pricks at Tivo won't even let you open the box without voiding the warranty? They got some fascist sticker and everything!"
michael: "How do they sleep at night?"
---
BTW, where's the obligatory link to SonicBlue's page and a link to the model discussed? Bad
Warranty call in the real world (Score:4, Funny)
Replay: "How may I assist you today?"
Joe Blow: "My Replay isn't working. Fix it now!"
Replay: "Really, what happened?"
Joe Blow: "I put it in the fish tank so it wouldn't clutter up my bookcase."
Re:Overreaction (Score:4, Informative)
They most certainly are not identical. Tivo makes no restrictions on hacking the hardware, ReplayTV does. Also, while Tivo can cancel my service if I actually infringe someone's copyright, with ReplayTV, Sonicblue can cancel my service if I am "alleged to infringe." Tivo's license agreement isn't perfect, but it has limits and yields the customer some reasonable freedom.
Re:Overreaction (Score:2, Informative)
TiVo retains the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this agreement, if the charges to your credit card for the fees described in the "Subscription Fees and Payment Authorization" paragraph above are refused for any reason, if you breach any provision in this agreement, if you misuse the TiVo Service, and/ or if you alter the Recorder or use the TiVo Service in such a manner as to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of TiVo or any third party.
and
Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the authorized product or software of this system is strictly prohibited.
and
You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product.
and
TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service
IANAL, but I think it is fair to say that these terms are exactly the same.
Re:Overreaction (Score:3, Interesting)
Without this, the TiVo agreement is not 'identical'.
just in case the server becomes unavailable... (Score:5, Informative)
---------
REPLAYTV 4500 Digital Video Recorder
Activation and Service Agreement
This Agreement applies to your use of the ReplayTV Service and is a legally binding agreement between you SONICblue Incorporated and its wholly owned subsidiary, ReplayTV Inc. (collectively "ReplayTV"). By clicking the button marked "I Agree" below or by otherwise communicating your acceptance to ReplayTV or by using the ReplayTV Service, you agree to all the terms and conditions in this Agreement. IMPORTANT NOTE: Your ReplayTV 4500 works only by receiving the ReplayTV Service offered and provided by ReplayTV. If you do not agree with all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, you are not authorized to use the ReplayTV Service, and you may return the ReplayTV 4500 to ReplayTV or the authorized retailer from whom you purchased the product for a full refund.
1. Use of the Service
A. Authorized Product. You may access and use the ReplayTV Service only with a ReplayTV 4500 product authorized to receive the ReplayTV Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product.
B. Personal Use Only. The ReplayTV Service is for personal, residential, non-commercial use. Any other use is not permitted under this Agreement. You may not re-sell the ReplayTV Service in whole or in part, nor, except as part of your transfer of the ReplayTV 4500 unit as provided in this Agreement, may you transfer the ReplayTV Service.
C. Eligible Subscribers. You represent that you are at least 18 years of age. You may permit minors to use the ReplayTV Service under your account, but you agree that you are fully responsible for the minors' use of the ReplayTV Service.
D. Accurate Information. You must give us accurate and complete information when you activate and use your ReplayTV Service. If you do not, ReplayTV may terminate your account at any time.
E. ReplayTV's Privacy Policy. ReplayTV respects the privacy of your information and will not disclose any of your information except as permitted in ReplayTV's Privacy Policy. A current copy of ReplayTV's Privacy Policy is included in the Privacy Policy section of the main menu in the ReplayTV software included on your ReplayTV 4500 and on the SONICblue website www.sonicblue.com. Please read it carefully before using your subscription for the ReplayTV Service. By using the ReplayTV Service, you understand and agree with how ReplayTV handles your information as described in our Privacy Policy. ReplayTV will use commercially reasonable efforts to notify you of any substantial and material changes to the Privacy Policy. However, you are responsible for viewing the latest Privacy Policy which can be accessed through our website at www.sonicblue.com.
F. TV Programming. The ReplayTV Service gives you the ability to see and record televised programs. However, ReplayTV exercises no editorial or programming control over these programs ("Third Party Content"). You understand that (a) ReplayTV does not guarantee the access to or recording of any particular program, (b) programming is not under ReplayTV's control, (c) ReplayTV is not responsible for and has no editorial control over any Third Party Content, and (d) ReplayTV has no control over the distribution of programs. You also understand that television programs, films, videotapes, and other materials may be copyrighted. Unauthorized recording and sending of such material may be contrary to the provisions of the United States copyright laws. The rights of copyright holders are subject to limitations when persons are engaged in "fair use" or are protected by other provisions of law. You are responsible for complying with these laws.
G. Changes to ReplayTV Service. At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice. In addition, ReplayTV may modify the terms and conditions of this Agreement from time to time (and will notify you of these changes to the Agreement)
H. Software. ReplayTV provided certain software with the ReplayTV 4500 unit you purchased, and may provide replacement (for example, bug fixes, updates or upgrades) and additional software to you from time to time (which may include by automatic downloads to the ReplayTV 4500 unit), in order for you to access and use certain features of the ReplayTV Service. Your use of all such software is subject to the terms of this Agreement. However, if a software license agreement is included with any such software, then those terms (and not this Agreement) will govern your use of that software. You have a limited, non-exclusive right to use the software only with the ReplayTV 4500 unit with which the software was provided or for which it was downloaded. You may make one copy of the software you download for backup purposes only, provided that such backup copy must include all copyright and other proprietary information and notices contained on the original. You acknowledge and agree that the software is copyrighted and contains material that is protected by copyright, trademark, trade secret and other laws and international treaty provisions relating to proprietary rights. You may not remove, change or hide any of ReplayTV's or its licensors' or suppliers' proprietary rights notices on or in the software or on output generated by the software. Except and only to the extent permitted by applicable law and this Agreement, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute, assign, transfer, or create derivative works from the software. You acknowledge and agree that any unauthorized use, transfer, sublicensing or disclosure of the software may cause irreparable injury to ReplayTV, and under such circumstances, ReplayTV shall be entitled to equitable relief, without posting bond or other security, including but not limited to, preliminary and permanent injunctive relief.
I. Ownership; Certain Rights. ReplayTV and its licensors and suppliers retain title to and ownership of all the ReplayTV software. ReplayTV and its licensors and suppliers own the intellectual property rights in and to the ReplayTV 4500 unit and the ReplayTV Service, including the copyrights and trademarks associated with the ReplayTV 4500 unit and the ReplayTV Service.
2. Fees and Term of the ReplayTV Service
A. Subscription Fees. Your use of the ReplayTV Service is subject to your payment of the subscription fee in advance. The subscription fee covers only the basic ReplayTV Service, and does not include charges or fees (a) for premium or other additional services offered as part of or through the ReplayTV Service for which ReplayTV charges additional fees, or (b) to third parties for telephone service or broadband access, if applicable. You are responsible for any such telephone or broadband service charges and acknowledge and agree that you shall be solely responsible for all disputes with any third party related to the same.
B. Lifetime Service. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, once you have paid the Service Activation Fee for your ReplayTV 4500 you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic ReplayTV Service during the lifetime of that product. The ReplayTV Service will be provided only to that particular ReplayTV 4500 unit for which you paid the subscription fee and cannot be transferred to any other units you may purchase. However, the ReplayTV Service will still apply to that unit even if you give it or sell it to a friend or family member. Thus, any service that is activated follows the ReplayTV 4500 unit and not the person.
C. Termination of Service; Your Indemnity Obligations. Notwithstanding any term of this Agreement, ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you (a) breach any provision of this Agreement (including but not limited to altering the ReplayTV 4500 unit or related software), (b) misuse the ReplayTV Service, or (c) infringe (or are alleged to infringe) upon the intellectual property rights of ReplayTV or any third party in your use in any way of the ReplayTV Service. You further agree that you will defend, indemnify and hold harmless ReplayTV and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, actions, suits, liabilities, losses, costs and expenses (including reasonable attorneys' fees) arising out of or relating to any of the actions described above that would entitle ReplayTV to terminate this Agreement.
3. DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY
A. Warranty Disclaimer. THE REPLAYTV SERVICE IS PROVIDED "AS IS," "WITH ALL FAULTS," AND "AS AVAILABLE." REPLAYTV AND ITS SUPPLIERS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND REGARDING THE REPLAYTV SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS), WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED, OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. ReplayTV makes no warranty that (a) the ReplayTV Service or its content will meet your requirements, be uninterrupted, error-free, secure or timely; or (b) that the information obtained through the ReplayTV Service (including but not limited to Third Party Programs) is accurate, current, complete or reliable. Some jurisdictions do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, so the above disclaimer may not apply to you. You may also have other legal rights that vary from state to state.
B. NO INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT WILL REPLAYTV OR ITS LICENSORS OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OF ANY KIND (WHETHER FOR LOST PROFITS, LOSS OF DATA OR OTHERWISE) ARISING FROM OR RELATING TO YOUR USE OF THE REPLAYTV SERVICE OR THIS AGREEMENT, EVEN IF REPLAYTV HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
C. LIMITATIONS OF REPLAYTV'S LIABILITY. IN NO EVENT SHALL REPLAYTV'S AGGREGATE LIABILITY TO YOU (AND ANYONE ELSE WHO USES THE REPLAYTV SERVICE THROUGH YOUR ACCOUNT), FOR ANY AND ALL CLAIMS ON ANY BASIS, WHETHER IN TORT, CONTRACT OR OTHERWISE, EXCEED THE TOTAL AMOUNT YOU PAID TO REPLAYTV FOR THE REPLAYTV 4500 UNIT AND THE REPLAYTV SERVICE. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THESE LIMITATIONS OF REPLAYTV'S AND REPLAYTV'S SUPPLIERS' AND LICENSORS' LIABILITY ARE A FUNDAMENTAL PART OF THIS AGREEMENT, AND REPLAYTV WOULD NOT ENTER INTO THIS AGREEMENT WITHOUT SUCH LIMITATION. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.
4. Miscellaneous
This Agreement (including referenced documents) constitutes the entire agreement regarding your use of the ReplayTV Service and supersedes any and all prior statements, agreements or understandings with respect to the ReplayTV Service. This Agreement is governed by and will be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of California without regard to its conflict of laws principles. If any provision of this Agreement is invalid, illegal or unenforceable, such provision will be deemed changed only to the extent necessary to make it valid, legal and enforceable; all other provisions of this Agreement will continue in full force and effect. Any failure by ReplayTV to strictly enforce any provision of this Agreement will not waive ReplayTV's right to later enforce that provision or any subsequent default or breach of the same or a different kind.
BY CLICKING ON THE "I AGREE" BUTTON BELOW, I REPRESENT THAT I HAVE READ, AND I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO, THE TERMS STATED ABOVE.
Loophole in the first paragraph (Score:4, Insightful)
They are selling the service with the restriction, not the box. Use what is in the above quote to not agree to the service, then modify the hardware to suit your needs. Remember to not use their service, that would be theft of service since you did not agree to the terms.
Re:Loophole in the first paragraph (Score:2)
Your ReplayTV 4500 works only by receiving the ReplayTV Service offered and provided by ReplayTV
So, by not using the ReplayTV Service, your ReplayTV will (supposedly) not work, hmmm, I wonder how well it "won't work" and if it *can* work after being removed from the ReplayTV Service it would make that sentance null and void and I wonder if a skilled lawyer could void the entire agreement, or at least large portions of it. So, in theory, as long as it's disconnected from the service, you may hack to your hearts desire as long as when you reconnect it, it doesn't try to use the service, because as soon as it uses the service you would be in violation of the license agreement.
Re:you left out a few items.... (Score:2, Funny)
F1: TV Programming Ownership. Upon viewing any programs from the ReplayTV Service, any and all devices used to capture such programming information immediately come under the soivereign control of ReplayTV and its subsidiaries, agents and legal representatives. This includes eyes(retinas, cornea, fovae, irises, vitreous humor, and any other part involved in the acquisition and conveyence of said programming), nerves(Optic, individual rods and cones, neurons, gray matter, and any other part involved in the acquisition, conveyence and comprehension of said programming), and any device used to aid in viewing said content such as glasses, contact lenses, or hearing aids.
X1. Disagreements with ReplayTV. Anyone who disagrees with ReplayTV with regard to this agreement will be sacked. Those who are responsible for said sacking and who do not fulfil their responsibilities to sack, will be sacked. Upon the occurence of said sackers of the sackers not sacking thee sackees, a low yield thermonuclear device will be detonated over the city containting said individual who disagreed with teh Replay Terms of Service AND those sachers who did not sack the sackers of the original sackees sackers'ers, oh whatever!
Easy way out (Score:4, Interesting)
DMCA (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Easy way out (Score:5, Interesting)
Need it spoonfed to you? Okay, keep reading.
By beginning the activation of your new ReplayTV unit here [replaytv.com], you will be activating the unit without agreeing to the agreement that seems to have Slashdotters up in arms -- in actual fact, you won't even have seen such an agreement, period.
In some jurisdictions, click-through agreements are legally binding -- but I've yet to hear of a jurisdiction which would consider you bound to an agreement you didn't see or agree to whatsoever.
Re:Easy way out (Score:2)
Tell that to American Medical Response (AMR) when they pick you up and take you to the hospital, then send bill collectors after your ass to get their fees when you manage to live. No kidding, they charge $150/mile, and a minimum of around $300 ('location fee') to start the journey. I'm still amazed they can run a business when they're taking people who aren't even conscious to the hospital, without having signed a contract. (Or worse, signing a contract while still in a barely lucid state.)
Of course, to claim that defense in court you'd probably have to assert that the retailer you bought your ReplayTV from beat you unconscious with a baseball bat, then threw you out the door with ReplayTV in hand.. then, I've seen a lot of Circuit City employees with Louseville Sluggers recently.
Re:Easy way out (Score:2, Informative)
Copies of the contract?? (Score:2, Interesting)
This contract is almost a Ferenge contract "...If you read this document you violate the terms of the contract..."
So with a a bit of html magic one could submit the form with a different contract -- one the is more user friendly to the consumer. Does thier software check that it is the original contract??? If it does not then THEY will then have aggreed to "our" obnoxious terms.
If you user their service and it works does this not violate the agreement?
Today a contract should actually state all of the details that each US state applies to such agreements and to each country as well. It should be a nicely format XML contract with all of the details downloadable to your machine. If they can't give you a copy automatically it should not be enforceable.
If you sue them and win it seems you still have to pay their costs or am I wrong?
Why NOT get one? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why NOT get one? The EULA - that's why (Score:2, Insightful)
In the pre-EULA days, when you bought something, you owned it. Now both Sonic and TIVO are saying that despite you giving them money, they still own the device and can do whatever they want with it, including disabling it.
An example of where this will get unpleasant is if they start using the machine in some way that you hadn't anticipated. TIVO just force fed their UK subscribers a show the subscribers didn't ask for. What if the machine starts forcing you to wacth an ad before they'll let you see what you bought the machine for? What can you do? Not a thing according to the EULA.
What if a competing service that doesn't monkey around with the basic service springs up and offers their wares at a lower price? Can you switch to them? Nope - the EULA forbids modifying the software. If Sonic or Tivo figure out that you switched, they can legally turn off your machine.
The really ridiculous thing about all of this is there isn't enough worthwhile stuff on TV to warrant watching TV in the first place. How many times have you gotten up after watching TV and thought "That was a waste?" Maybe deleting the ads would have improved the signal to noise ratio but now the machine you bought to skip the ads is beginning to force ads down your throat.
Not a worthwhile purchase in my book.
Read Tivos agreement lately? (Score:2, Insightful)
I can't stand Replay for a myriad of technical reasons, but read Tivos license agreement [tivo.com] - it says all the same things, sometimes in nearly the exact same words.
"Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product..."
"TiVo retains the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this agreement, if the charges to your credit card for the fees described in the "Subscription Fees and Payment Authorization" paragraph above are refused for any reason, if you breach any provision in this agreement, if you misuse the TiVo Service, and/ or if you alter the Recorder or use the TiVo Service in such a manner as to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of TiVo or any third party."
They have to say those kinds of things to keep their legal options open should someone do something they feel they have to respond to. Until they give some sign of enforcing their agreement more rigidly than Tivo getting your panties in a wad over what some standard legal disclaimer says is a bit premature. Of course premature and uninformed ranting is what Slashdot is all about these days, isn't it?
Re:Read Tivos agreement lately? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Read Tivos agreement lately? (Score:2)
The agreement only covers the service and IP rights of TiVo.
This covers a modified box, which they (ReplayTV) will damage it if found modified.
Tivo just doesn't want you to expose IP rights and/or steal service. ReplayTV doens't want you to modify the hardware in anyway.
The problem is you don't know the story (as expected). ReplayTV is using their service as a backdoor method into checking your box for 'hacks'.
If you open your VCR it's legal, if you smash your TV with a hammer it's legal.
They could say "no mo' service fo' you" but instead they are DISABLING IT!
Wolcott (Score:4, Funny)
Section 4C: If you hack ReplayTV 4500 and it begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
Geez, talking about infringement.
Bad Press for Microsoft competitors (Score:3, Informative)
Well, I'll keep my Dtivos as long as I can, I am one of those extremely satisfied TiVo owners that is in the 90% customer satisfaction group TiVo talks about. Furthermore I recomend TiVo to everyone I know.
Of course I do believe TiVo days are numbered. Alas , even though TiVo is great, the best by far, with the highest customer ratings, it all means nothing....
The merger gets approved, Echostar already announced it's alliance with MOXI and Moxi was sold to Microsoft's Paul Allen,....don't you just love it when a plan comes together to to allow a corporation to use it financial gains from one monopoly to create another....
Microsoft takes two loosing products, Ultimate TV and Xbox , combines them, Paul Allen buys a company called Moxi and controls it all....
who wants it that bad? (Score:2, Interesting)
What good is it if they give 50 pages of utter, complete bull in 5 different languages if even one rule is conflicting? Why should I care about papers where they have apparently copypasted everything even remotely affecting rules and demands from all laws they could find? It surely seems like it.
Is competition really this fierce that bare products with only kind suggestions of how to use it are impossible? Can't they just sell their things and be happy that people even buy them? Are these the symptoms of too broad rights given to businesses?
oh the money! (Score:2)
And of course, for $49.95, we can look past this injunction and set you back up again. Of course, in doing this we take no responsibility for the system kicking you off again.
But that's okay. 49.95 gets you back up and running again... For a while.
Legally binding or not, that is the question (Score:4, Insightful)
Now I am no lawyer but would Microsoft for example be indemnified from the antitrust allegations if they put a clause to that effect in their licence agreement?
More often than not copyright notices and licence agreements are there purely for FUD purposes. I have always seriously doubted the legal grounds a company has to stand on if they claim things in a license agreement which nobody really reads, seeks legal council on or sign.
I would go out and buy one and claim that I never received the licence agreement! Would they then have to prove that I received, read and agreed to it before they can take further steps?
Come-on you Law-infested-geeks out there! What is the answer?
Re:Legally binding or not, that is the question (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you really think any court is going to accept a defence of "oh I really didn't read the licence thing. I didn't think it was legally binding if I didn't read it."
In Australia and other common law countries I think you'll find that shrink wrap licences and post purchase licences are quite legal and enforcable where the terms and conditions aren't illegal.
I often use the example of car parking stations. You generally just drive in and get a ticket and there are no terms obvious. Somewhere just inside the carpark will be a big sign with the terms of use displayed. If you don't like the terms you can generally go back out without payment but continuing on implies your acceptance of the terms. That's settled law in Australia at least.
As for Microsoft, the licence agreement is irrelevant to the question of whether they infringe an anti trust law. And in any case you generally can't indemnify yourself from consequences of an illegal act as a matter of policy.
Re:Legally binding or not, that is the question (Score:5, Interesting)
I am not a lawyer, but you don't have a clue.
The courts are the ultimate arbiters of contract law. If the courts decline to enforce contract terms then they are void.
Shrinkwrap type 'contracts' are problematic in many ways, not least because there is unequal bargaining power. It is a unilateral declaration by one side of what the terms of the agreement are. Such can be declared 'contracts of adhesion' and considered invalid by the courts. Invalid does not mean illegal, a term may be perfectly legal in a contract negotiated between two parties but not legal when it is unilaterally imposed.
I often use the example of car parking stations. You generally just drive in and get a ticket and there are no terms obvious. Somewhere just inside the carpark will be a big sign with the terms of use displayed. If you don't like the terms you can generally go back out without payment but continuing on implies your acceptance of the terms. That's settled law in Australia at least.
Actually it is settled law but not the way you think. In contract law it is impossible to exclude claims in negligence. So if a multi story car park collapses due to lack of maintenance the owner/operator is liable irregardless of what he put on the ticket. In fact there can even be a contract term stating that the owner is not liable in that precise circumstance and it is still invalid.
Incidentally that is why legal constructs such as bills of lading and letters of credit are so interesting, they are not contracts and are not subject to contract law and cannot in fact be constructed using contract law. That is why the digital signature acts were required to recognise the legality of digital signatures on such documents.
Clauses that attempt to restrict remedies were almost always thrown out by the US courts 20 years ago. Today clauses that restrict redress to arbitration are sometimes recognised, but by no means in every case. I suspect however that the provisions put in to many cell phone contracts that prohibit class action lawsuits are unenforceable.
tick tock tick tock (Score:2)
way LESS profitable to actually sell you something
compared to makign you licence it, and
then controlling how you use it. Software
companies figured this out a while back. People
joke, but if there is more profit in
it, companies will do it. "Please sign
this EULA before you buy this car." Its coming.
Re:tick tock tick tock (Score:2)
nah, its been here since forever.
Have you actually ever read any of the documents they make you sign before you buy a car? rent a car?
for enforceable provisions that you don't ever read, have you looked at the backside of your plane tickets lately? almost any theatre or park admission ticket? utility tariffs?
Re:tick tock tick tock (Score:3, Funny)
"Please sign this EULA before you buy this car." Its coming.
More likely we'll see something like this:
By driving this car, you agree to the following End-User License Agreement (EULA):
Why accept *their* agreement? (Score:4, Funny)
Try mine:
I Agree [replaytv.com]So what if you don't agree? (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, what if you could make it workable? Can a *nix be ported onto it? Add a video codec, and create an open-source PVR OS?
Maybe this is something SonicBlue is hoping for. They've got a nice piece of hardware, and they can keep making 'em, just as long as it's someone else who takes the blame for that 30-second commercial skip.
Does this violate merchantability? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does this violate merchantability? (Score:2)
IANAL but you are correct, I spent a fair bit of time wih lawyers who write such stuff and they wory a lot about enforceability.
Many shrinkwrap products disclaim merchantability but it is unlikely that the courts would consider the clause enforceable and bar a claim on the basis of it.
The more relevant consideration is in what circumstances would ReplayTV activate the clause? I suspect that if they get that desperate that there is not much ReplayTV left to go sue.
These stupid clauses do however have material effect, but not the one you think. They allow ReplayTV to recognise revenue that otherwise they would have to defer since there is an ongoing service commitment. No 'commitment', no need to defer the revenue.
Re:Does this violate merchantability? (Score:2)
In the US, all products must carry an implied warranty of merchantability
(gdb) show warranty
NO WARRANTY
11. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY
FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN
OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES
PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED
OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS
TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE
PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING,
REPAIR OR CORRECTION.
12. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING
WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES,
INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING
OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
(gdb)
An argument may be made. (Score:2)
That's the way I see it. You don't like the agreement? Don't buy the replay.
Exactly. I don't like it, so I won't buy it. The power of the consumer wins again.
Re:An argument may be made. (Score:2)
And the problem is? (Score:2)
Look, if you hack a satellite T.V. box, you can go to jail. At least if you hack a ReplayTV box, all they'll do is cut your service. So again, what's the problem?
This is bad? (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, pshaw!
Look, people can argue about the ethics of true copyright violation; and, in fact, people have offered reasonable arguments concluding that there's nothing wrong with it. I disagree. Many other people disgaree, as well.
But what all of us agree upon is that within the boundaries of fair use, we should be able to do what we want with copyrighted material. It is absolutely ridiculous that everyone's ability to utilize content in a way that the law has recognized as benign is essentially illegalized in order to control the people who are violating copyright law. It's outrageous.
Now, since we all agree on this regardless of whether or not we fundamentally agree on the legitimacy of intellectual property, shouldn't we concentrate on this battle first?
And what SonicBlue is doing is to enforce copyright protections while still fighting against draconian controls. Hooray for them! Everyone who complains about this and everyone that uses a ReplayTV to violate copyright laws are undermining the effort to fight against these outrageous laws that effectively invalidate fair use.
Re:This is bad? (Score:2)
But SONICblue doesn't recognize any sort of "fair use" safe harbor:
So you might be making Fair Use, but if the Copyright Cartel doesn't like it, phffft! $250 paperweight. Well, at least, when you demonstrate to SONICblue that your use was, indeed, a Fair Use case, they will apologize and reinstate the Service, right? Wrong:
So no, this is not justifiable CYA. They're saying, "We know that our service could get you into a slapping match with the Copyright Cartel. And we don't want to fight that. But we really do want your money for as long as we can get it."
Peh. I was looking at getting one of these, but now I'll just look into building my own.
Wow, reminds me of the CueCat... (Score:2, Funny)
If I hear Linux Tivo-like Device one more time I.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically, WHENEVER there is a TIVO/ReplayTV device story on
Sure, if I lived in Europe and had satellite television I'd be set with a DBS setup. Sure if I had a direct tuner on my tv (not a cable box) I'd be set.
But NOT one project I've seen (including the Linux VCR, the Linux-Tivo thing on
Simply, you can't use the built-in TV tuner for most analog cable hookups and ALL digital cable hookups.
Does ANY project do this? I'm working on coding my own using the TiVo emitters, but I really don't want to duplicate work.
Re:If I hear Linux Tivo-like Device one more time (Score:3, Informative)
They have their own domain, lirc.org [lirc.org]. Like you're about to say, this is exactly the other half of the equation you need -- just add the glue code now and you're done.
>I'm working on coding my own using the TiVo emitters, but I really don't want to duplicate work.
Visit the site above and let us know when its complete!
HTH.
Re:If I hear Linux Tivo-like Device one more time (Score:2, Informative)
I've been using one to switch channels before executing a vcr http://www.stack.nl/~brama/vcr/ command for a while now. In conjunction it works great.
Re:If I hear Linux Tivo-like Device one more time (Score:2)
I'm working on this problem. ITs a difficult one- here are some of the issues:
1) IR codes vary greatly from device to device. But more importantly, they are not explicit. In other words the "ON" code is "On" when the machines off, but if the machines on, then it will turn the machine off. so there's no way for one to say "on" and *know* that you're going to get the machine turned on, rather than off. (in many cases)
2) There seems to be no good hardware. What makes sense is to both send and recieve IR signals. so you can control your pc based PVR from a remote... but there is little hardware that will do this and what is there won't do both really elegantly. Making custom hardware is possible, but that involves a lot of issues as well.
3) The setup of the home entertainment system affects how this works. Is there a VCR between the cable box and the PVR? which output of the VCR is the PVR hooked up to? Whatever system will have to either force people to set up their system in a way the PVR IR controller can control, or have a way to teach the PVR about the setup.
But my biggest concern is finding all the codes, and translating them into a format I can use... manufacturers make variations on the even the same model of VCR...
Re:If I hear Linux Tivo-like Device one more time (Score:2)
Geez. Do you research anything before you code?
1) IR codes vary greatly from device to device. But more importantly, they are not explicit. In other words the "ON" code is "On" when the machines off, but if the machines on, then it will turn the machine off. so there's no way for one to say "on" and *know* that you're going to get the machine turned on, rather than off. (in many cases)
A PVR system pretty much requires the cable box to be on all the time. TiVo and Replay don't bother toggling the power to these. It's not like they use that much electricity. Leave it on and stop worrying about discrete on/off codes. If your power goes out or something, you probably have more to worry about than your cable box not powering bacvk on.
2) There seems to be no good hardware. What makes sense is to both send and recieve IR signals. so you can control your pc based PVR from a remote... but there is little hardware that will do this and what is there won't do both really elegantly. Making custom hardware is possible, but that involves a lot of issues as well.
LIRC supports a ton of good IR hardware including many devices that send and recieve CIR signals just fine. Many are commercially available, and as you said, you can roll your own if you are looking to add IR support to an embedded device or want to "do it on the cheap" if you will.
3) The setup of the home entertainment system affects how this works. Is there a VCR between the cable box and the PVR? which output of the VCR is the PVR hooked up to? Whatever system will have to either force people to set up their system in a way the PVR IR controller can control, or have a way to teach the PVR about the setup.
Why on earth would you hook up a VCR between your cable box and PVR system and then expect to be able to do anything useful with it? The cable box should be somehow directly connected to your PVR system and then somehow to a video output device -- TV, video switcher (reciever), or maybe connected to the TV through the VCR so that you could actually archive a program on your PVR to video tape if you felt so inclined... The only thing you might want the PVR to be able to do is tell the VCR to start and stop recording for automatic show archival.
But my biggest concern is finding all the codes, and translating them into a format I can use... manufacturers make variations on the even the same model of VCR...
You don't necessarily have to distribute the code library for every cable box on the planet. Just include an option under some setup menu that lets you teach the computer PVR the codes from the cable box remote.
Your half-baked planning is useless. Don't claim to be "working on the problem" until you are actually working on it.
~GoRK
Great Opportunity for Tivo! (Score:4, Funny)
--jeff++
Don't get bent out of shape (Score:3, Insightful)
Note, too, that if you do disagree with the policy, and yet still purchase, you will have lost. Sonic Blue will have gotten your money, and that tells other companies that people accept this asanine policy. Don't buy!
Also, remember that click-through licenses are as yet unenforceable (but keep watch the DMCA, SSSCA, and sister laws). But I doubt any of us wants to be the guinea pig to drag this through the legal system.
As for me, I will not be buying this product, but I will be writing Sonic Blue to tell them just exactly why I won't be buying. To make it easier for you, here is Sonic Blue's contact page [replaytv.com]. I urge you to send them a similar letter if this policy bothers you.
There isn't much of a free market here folks (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is, there really isn't a free market. The copyright cartels, and their goons, are strongarming ReplayTV, TiVo, and other PVR manufacturers into disabling features they don't like (commercial skipping) and possibly even requiring features they do like (embedded commercials, coming to a PVR near you?).
Those that want to make a kick ass PVR and sell it face the daunting certainty of being sued into oblivion by such household cartels as the MPAA and, if the device allows the sharing of music, the RIAA. So long as these monopolists can send their IP lawyer/thugs around shutting down businesses they don't like, intimidating the rest, and even absorbing the more successful (mp3.com), no free market will ever really exist because consumers will be prevented from having the choice of buying what they want altogether.
The invisible hand of the free market doesn't work when this sort of coercion is in play, and whether the terms of this particular license are to protect Replay from the copyright cartels (and whatever court orders their copyright priveleges may result in), or to take advantage of their customers down the road is quite irrelevant. Either way, it is the customer, that's you and I folks, who gets screwed, and the only viable alternative is to give up a little convinience and roll your own GNU/Linux based PVR [expressivefreedom.org] (it is with pleasure I hear the screaming and wailing of the naysayers now, as I watch my Max Headroom episodes in resolutions they can't even dream of
As for me, I will not be buying this product, but I will be writing Sonic Blue to tell them just exactly why I won't be buying. To make it easier for you, here is Sonic Blue's contact page [replaytv.com]. I urge you to send them a similar letter if this policy bothers you.
That is excellent advice
Re:There isn't much of a free market here folks (Score:2)
The free market does not guarantee that every product every consumer wishes to purchase will be made available for sale. You must recognize that, in this situation, you do still have the option to purchase or not purchase the specified product with the specified fine print.
Also, remember that in any contract negotiations -- and that's esentially what this is -- you can take the proposed contract and make a counteroffer without the offending parts. They may not accept your proposed contract, but you still have that right.
Here's another example: cell phones: I want a cellphone that includes 3000 minutes a month for $30 -- with no contract. One cannot get that service anywhere -- so would you argue that there isn't a free market in cell phones? I would hope not, because, while there are stupid rules and bogus choices in the cellphone industry -- so bogus that the industry is imploding as we speak -- there certainly is a free market there.
Remember that a free market is any place at which buyers and sellers exchange goods/services/money on mutually agreeable terms. Why "agreeable"? Well, if you don't agree to the terms, whatever they are, then you won't buy. Buying inherently means that you accept all terms of the sale. They might be grudgingly accepted, but accepted they are.
Re:There isn't much of a free market here folks (Score:2)
You are sidestepping the issue -- which is odd because you correctly describe it later:
If you can't get what you want because nobody has the desire or ability to produce it at a price you are willing to pay, that's just life. If, however, you can't get what you want because some third party has coercively interposed himself between buyer and seller, then the free market has been subverted.Re:Don't get bent out of shape (Score:2)
You are correct here, but the difference is that replay will get whacked on the other end when the backlash comes after people start getting shut off from the service for hacking/accused of copying/etc. "But you signed the contract" is what the customers will hear. And then people will start to realize, "hey, what a crappy service." And Replay's business will tank. (Yeah, yeah, this is all in theory, and pure speculation.)
Bad old days when you couldn't own your phone.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You just rented "service," equipment and all, at a monthly rate, and you could do with it only what the telephone company wanted you to do with it.
It should be clear at this point that the pendulum is swinging back, and that the Tivos, the cable providers, and the software vendors of the world are trying to turn back the clock to that comfortable time when you didn't own and couldn't control ANYTHING in your house that was wired for communications.
It's only a matter of time before video recorders and computers are not sold at all. You simply get to choose the one that's provided free (or for a $1000 installation charge?) with your subscription service.
Re:Bad old days when you couldn't own your phone.. (Score:2)
Or at least that's the way things are run here in Canada.
Re:Bad old days when you couldn't own your phone.. (Score:3, Interesting)
It should be clear at this point that the pendulum is swinging back, and that the Tivos, the cable providers, and the software vendors of the world are trying to turn back the clock to that comfortable time when you didn't own and couldn't control ANYTHING in your house that was wired for communications.
It's only a matter of time before video recorders and computers are not sold at all. You simply get to choose the one that's provided free (or for a $1000 installation charge?) with your subscription service.
Nice over-reaction, but you are forgetting one MAJOR point... the telephone company at the time had a huge monopoly!
There is no similar monopoly in the hardware markets that could make me rent all my equipment and not keep control of it.
In order for this to happen, you'd have to have some new type of hardware come out, completely patented, with no alternatives available that could do something similar. And everyone would need to have one of these. THEN and only then could you do something like what ma bell did with rented telephones.
Turner Broadcasting Corp alleges... (Score:2)
ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you
I guess SonicBlue will have (the absolute right) to cancel every subscription to its service.
-Turkey
Software licenses for embedded products (Score:2)
Rubbish Agreement (Score:2)
That agreement is just a scrap of paper.
Though ReplayTV can initially claim the right to shut off your service, they have no legal grounds for altering your device, or changing your service simply because you bang/scratch/open/modify/mutilate your equipment, provided that you are not, in any way, affecting the service provided.
You would need to do something to the effect of altering their advertisement storage mechanism in order for ReplayTV to have legal grounds for their agreement.
Most of that agreement is just a scare tactic.
Sure. They can claim that. (Score:2)
You can't sell someone something and then dictate what happens afterwards. Sorry.
They can refuse to provide service, of course.. but a service contract and a sale of a device are totally different things.
This is just more incentive to hack the damn thing and make sure they can't wipe it.
Saving $250 (Score:2)
Deceptive sales tactics? No such thing as a PVR? (Score:2)
The stated reason for reducing the pricing was because the extra $250 for a "prepaid lifetime subscription" was reducing sales (especially since the product's remaining lifetime seems likely to be substantially less than a year), so they were going to switch to a monthly subscription model. Instead, they are just playing a "hide the fee" game, hoping that idiots who get the box home will agree to pay another $250 instead of returning the box.
If the fee is properly disclosed (to avoid lawsuits), then nobody will buy this version if they didn't buy the prior version, since the features are unchanged and the net price is unchanged. But we all know that the fee will not be properly disclosed, so there will be many returns and there will be lawsuits by various consumer groups and state AGs, which may be simply part of ReplayTV's "publicity" strategy.
And as noted, the deal is basically that if the company folds, the box can self-destruct and you have nothing, period, for your $650.
In April, I wrote an essay [markwelch.com] chronicling my efforts to buy a PVR, and nothing has changed since then. Nobody sells PVR technology to consumers, period. For those who are willing to do a lot of "do it yourself" work, and who trust that the companies will "do the right thing" despite the lack of any legal obligation to provide service, it is technically possible to get PVR technology working.
I would gladly pay $300 to $500 for something like a TiVo or ReplayTV, plus $10 to $15 per month for programming data, if I thought I could get an actual service that would last for a year or more. I am absolutely unconvinced that any company can or will provide service for a year.
If you don't like it, don't buy it! (Score:2)
If I'm at the grocery, and I see rotten apples, I'm not going to sue the store, I'm just going to take my business elsewhere. I'm getting rather tired of all these people _expecting_ certain licenses. "But it takes away my Freedom"? Replay has the freedom to put whatever license they feel on their product. Hey, and know what, if you don't hack the thing, they won't cancel your service!
It's not like there's no competition [tivo.com] around to buy your PVR from.
Unenforceable terms (Score:2)
Reverse-Engineering law? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Covering their butts (Score:2, Interesting)
Three cheers for the makers of ReplayTV to hit the CONTENT THIEVES right in their 'nads!!!
Also, they'll know EXACTLY who you are by the unique Serial# and Unit# burned into the non-eprom chips.
Interestingly enough, Napster filed for Chapter 11 protections today.
Enjoy the Ride!!
ScottKin
Re:Covering their butts (Score:2)
Proving that any company, no matter how small, can indeed be crushed by the combined might of an entrenched industry, no matter how unjusitified. Yay for our justice system.
Re:Covering their butts (Score:2)
There have been a lot of people making similar claims -- "They're just CYAing. They don't intend to actually ever enforce these provisions." Bull-crap. Lawyers don't put in clauses for the fun of it. You can be sure that SONICblue's legal team pored over this and every word fully represents the intent of the company. If they never, ever meant to do this, they wouldn't bother reserving the right...
You are wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Normally I wouldn't respond to such a troll but this kind of misinformation needs to be stopped. It is what leads to things like the DMCA.
Cat
Re:Bring on the whining! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bring on the whining! (Score:2)
What, you don't have your PVR backed up? You should. It's really quite easy.
And no, there are no hardware kill switches. Or none that have been found at least - and I doubt the first generation boxes had them at all. Even if they were to tell the BIOS to kill itself, the BIOS can be replaced too.
Re:Bring on the whining! (Score:2)
And you don't have to live with crappy PC based solutions. Some day, a PC based solution will be more than powerful enough to never drop frames, glitch out, etc... but that day isn't today *or* tomorrow.
Tivos just kick ass, and I haven't had trouble not using their guide data. Even over the 9600baud serial link, it's small enough to upload quickly (and before anyone says that I should up the baud rate, I have close to 200 ft of cat5 between the tivo and my linux server). The only thing that bothers me at all, is the third party guide utils want to suck 28 megs of html per day. Oh well, that's what my cable modem is for, I suppose.
Less Whining (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Build Your Own? (Score:4, Interesting)
Allwell set top box - metallic version - $325.00
cheap bt878 video capture card
Hollywood+ mpeg playback card
DVD rom
$500.00 looks better than your design, works better too (because of the hardware mpeg playback.. NOTHING can beat the hollywood+ for playback quality in the consumer video arena.)
in fact, I have one now... works great. No on screen crap, I program it completely from a webpage and the remote allows me to select what show to watch.
you want one too?
do a search for linux VCR. and there's your start. you also need Mplayer and lirc.
Re:Build Your Own? (Score:2)
cheap bt878 video capture card
Hollywood+ mpeg playback card
DVD rom
Going to the allwell web site [gctglobal.com] the box looks OK but only has two PCI slots so using them well is going to be critical.
I would really like to be able to put a firewire card into at least one of the slots so that the device can output to an external disk. There is a version of the box that comes with an MPEG2 decoder which looks a better option in that case.
Also I would probably look for a satelite TV interface card as I use dish TV. I have seen ads for such but they are pricier than normal interface cards. This choice may well mean going the windows XP route since I have no intention of writing my own drivers (been there, done that).
The problem with this build is that it doesn't leave space for a radio card as well. The problem we have found with the Dishplayer PVR (based on ultimate TV we think) is that we keep wanting to rewind and playback radio as well...
Re:Not Whining (Score:3, Insightful)
I am stillllll waiting for someone to come up with a generic programmable VCR like PVR device that doesn't come with all those strings and monthly payments attached.
I thought free markets were supposed to provide what is in demand. It must just be the two of us then.
Re:Not Whining (Score:4, Insightful)
Recording the data stream, keeping it all perfectly synched, allowing fast forward/skip/rewind at various speeds/intervals and still keeping it synched, the program guide data, the user interface, reasonable indexing of recorded data, and everything else - these aren't simple problems. The first being the hardest. And the guide data isn't free - you have to pay someone for it. To get it in the level of detail and quality that TiVo has you have to pay a good bit (more than what you can download from the net or hack off your cable/DSS).
Free markets do provide what is in demand. But nobody believes that the average consumer will $2k for one of these boxes - which is about what you'd have to charge to recoup R&D costs since you have no ongoing revenue.
There's a reason that TiVo and Replay have done well. And why nobody's sufficiently duplicated them yet on the PC. One of these days you'll realize that.
Re:Not Whining (Score:2)
Umm, I use Yahoo!TV [yahoo.com] listings, and they're free. I don't use Replay or Tivo, so maybe I'm missing something. But I don't see why I'd need much more than program name and time.
Re:Not Whining (Score:2)
TiVo provides name and time, plus episode name, category (and there's 20 or so categories plus sub categories for each), primary actors, director, rating, new/rerun, and a few other markings I'm forgetting now. All of this is useful for searching, indexing, and automatic recording of interesting shows (the new/rerun and episode name are biggies -- so I can select only new programs, or I can decide to not record any episodes I've recorded in the past 30 days).
Looking at Yahoo's listings, some of that is available, but it's very very random and the classifications for some shows appear to be off. And it requires you to drill down on every link, which is not how you want an automated update to work.
Accuracy is another issue... I have no way to comment on the accuracy of Yahoo's data, but I've rarely seen TiVo's data wrong. When it is you can call them up and they'll yell at the company that provides it to them.
Re:Not Whining (Score:2)
Fair enough, except way back in 1994, I wrote a script that pretended to be a Netscape browser and read the day's schedule off TVguide.com... and I know next to nothing about the http protocols. If the info is out there and human-readable, then it can be automated.
But I suspect that there is a large market for people who just want an enhanced VCR and who haven't yet become addicted
Re:Not Whining (Score:2)
I actually don't think I'd use those features, so my original post stands. But it doesn't matter: Not a one of those is missing from the Yahoo! listings.
And of course those sites pay for the info at some point. (One could argue that users of public spectrum should have to provide this info as a cost of doing business, but
But why do the people providing the hardware also have to be the ones providing the programming info? Other than locking you into their business plan, of course. From the consumer's point of view, it doesn't make sense. With XML looming, one imagines a working group could define an open standard for TV info, and let competition come to the service market. And if several PVR makers agreed to utilize the open standard, they could leverage that freedom (I believe) into real cash.
Re:TVGuide is $3.95...and it's free via your cable (Score:2)
Because the VCR interface is pretty universally hated? Very few people actually use their VCRs for recording because they find the interface confusing. Why do you think there are so many jokes about it?
And yes, I'm happy for your parents. Now get me data that I can actually use. See my other post for why that data is not sufficient.
And no, you don't know what channel the Simpsons are on. Not all of them at least. Which channels are playing the syndicated reruns? At what times? And do you know when they're going to change their schedule? Or show a special episode?
You don't NEED to know any of that with a good PVR like TiVo or Replay. All you need to know is what the name of the show is... or (with TiVo) the name of an actor. Or the director. Or even a general category. And you can record it, whenever it comes on, whatever channel it comes on, no matter how many lineup changes occur or special episodes are shown.
PVR's are truely freeing... it's not a matter of watching more TV (although you may), it's about watching what you want when you want. Like a show that's on at 8 pm for 30 mins and another that's on at 9 pm for 30 mins? Great. Now you don't have to watch the trash that's on between. You don't have to worry about being home to watch it at 8 pm either. And you don't have to wonder about if there's a tape in the VCR, if there's enough space left on it, or if another show is about to come on that you want to tape so you can't watch that first one.