KDEvelopers on KDE Users 179
An anonymous reader writes: "KDE developers spent some time this week on their mailing list discussing what motivates them and the extent to which user concerns figure in their decisions. Dennis E. Powell's column on Linux and Main draws excerpts from the exchange, in which he participated, and says that he believes a lot more of this kind of discussion is needed."
Excellent points brought up by the article (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone said that Open Source will never effectively work on the desktop, because it's far too unstable; you can't program anything really useful for it without spending a lot of time and money nursing it through the inevitable changes the platforms around it create. I respectfully disagree, because I think that whenever there is a will, there's a way, and that when people need something, they're going to create it or maintain it.
There is a great deal of burnout being created by users demanding features in software that the developer isn't being paid for, too. KDE has mostly escaped this thus far, however there is some speculation that GNOME has more momentum because it's the underdog. Let's hope these two projects can continue to bring great things to the Linux desktop.
Re:Excellent points brought up by the article (Score:2)
- Someone said that Open Source will never effectively work on the desktop..
Interesting that they should say that, because the company with the most dominant position on the desktop - Microsoft - has opened the source to a number of desktop-related applications. Wordpad, for example. And someRe:Excellent points brought up by the article (Score:1)
Re:Excellent points brought up by the article (Score:1)
I think KDE and GNOME should come to a gentelmen's agreement: ONE for Geeks and Nerds, but the other for mere mortals like me. That way both teams can meet the expectations of their "own" users better.
Re:Excellent points brought up by the article (Score:2)
And that is exactly the point.
When I develop software off my own back, I do what I want to do. If I need a feature, I add it. If I see that someone wants a featue and it'll make it better and it's not too much trouble, then I'll do it. But if it is a lot of work, and it's for a feature I can't really get excited about, then it's simply not going to happen, because I'll get bored halfway or instead do something else that I want to do. If someone else really wants a feature, they can add it themselves or pay someone else to add it. Of course, most people are unhappy to pay for development work knowing that it must then be put back into the public domain.
This is probably a reason why more commercial software suceeds than open source. People working in commercial jobs don't want to loose their jobs, so they add the features their boss wants them to add. Sure, they may re-prioritise fun stuff above boring stuff, but at the end of the day if the manager is any good, they'll make sure it all gets done.
People just don't do stuff they don't enjoy unless there's no option.
Re:Excellent points brought up by the article (Score:1)
Good move (Score:1, Informative)
Although with what little funding they have, it is difficult to do much more than this sort of 'market research' polling. Actual experiments set up to monitor GUI usage and human reactions may be more difficult to organise.
Re:Good move (Score:2)
Several of us have set up a website to explore creating Design Patterns for User Interface Design called Simpleface.org [simpleface.org]. The idea is that instead of a 400 page UI Guideline doc that no developer ever looks at, a set of easy to understand and follow Design Patterns for specific GUI issues would be the solution that OSS needs to help it get out of it's bad-design rut.
Think about the Apple Human Interface Guidelines. These are available for free on the internet, as well as guidelines for Gnome and KDE (less complete) but there are tons of developers that have never even looked at these docs, let alone try to follow them.
The plan is to first create a set of good user interface patterns and then certify those apps that use those patterns. Those apps could then use the Simpleface logo on their products. The patterns are all open source (i.e. Gnu copyrighted) but to use the trademark, you need to be certified.
-Russ
Re:Good move (Score:1)
The ideal might be that by default an app uses CTRL+S to save or F2 or whatever, but these keys can all be re-bound to suit individual preferences.
Whatever, best of luck, I think this sounds worthwhile.
Re:Good move (Score:1)
problem no 1.: lack of tutorials and beginner docu (Score:5, Insightful)
What I found to be the biggest problem with KDevelop is the lack of up to date documentation and tutorials. Whatever I found was always based on older versions, different templates etc. I haven't found 1 tutorial which I could go through from beginning to the end and end up with the results I should accourding to the description.
KDevelop is attractive to programmers who are not fluent in KDE, C++ and QT and lacking basic, but up to date and included, tutorials is IMHO one of the biggest things that stops new programmers from using it.
Re:problem no 1.: lack of tutorials and beginner d (Score:5, Insightful)
Rarest of all are requirements and architectural documents. Essentially there is no way to validate most Open Source Software because there exists no requirements or architecutural documents. Anything goes.
These factors make real, legitimate quality assurance an impossibilty. At best QA on Open Source Software consists of ad hoc bug fixes and low level "lint" style syntax checks. Without requirements documents, there is no way to achieve QA in-the-large.
Re:problem no 1.: lack of tutorials and beginner d (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe there's not enough "end-user" docu, but for me there more than enough "docu" in general. (besides, what's the last docu you got with windows, office etc..?)
The real problem at hand here is that there's way to much information. If you want to get up and running, endless files with class-descriptions and nitty-gritty details are not what you need. A simple, but compete application step by step will do the trick a lot better. A tutorial.
And there's hardly anything more frustrating than trying to follow such a tutorial and finding that the files, are not there, that extra parameters are needed, that userinterfaces have been changed completely etc.
Re:problem no 1.: lack of tutorials and beginner d (Score:2)
Windows is Windows and I hate it for that fact, but it is relatively decently documented, between the help system and the KB (and XP's help system integrates both, albeit sluggishly). Too bad good documentation doesn't always imply good software. And that goes for all software, not just MS.
As for KDevelop and other programming environments, I disagree with you partly. You do indeed need a simple & complete step-by-step to get up and running, but you also need the endless class descriptions and and the nitty-gritty. Otherwise you could never [easily] progress beyond what that simple tutorial shows you.
Re:problem no 1.: lack of tutorials and beginner d (Score:3, Insightful)
There's even an online book referenced there (Although based on KDE 2.0 and KDevelop 1.x, but it'll still "show you the ropes" and then you'll be just that much more amazed by all the features in the newer versions. :) )
Re:problem no 1.: lack of tutorials and beginner d (Score:3, Informative)
It took me about 2 days of hunting a pecking to get it right, and hopefully here in the next couple of weeks I am going to write a complete, up to date tutorial for beginners with kdevelop. My largest problem was trying to understand how QT designer fit into the project, and how to get ui files to place nicely with everything else.
My suggestion on learning this stuff is to go to www.trolltech.no . TrollTech's docs on QT3 are great. I started off just reading about QT and going through the tuturials that DONT use QT designer - that finally clued me in enough to what was happening to be able to write some lines in Kdevelop (BTW - I never use the default class that is created by the wizard - it just doesn't make sense, I do, however, leave it there for now) - and get some basic GUI stuff up and running.
Then from there I just used the kdevelop docs (in the books tab - if you don't have them, you need to get them!!! They are great!). There was one document that said "Using QT designer with kdevelop" or something like that - and that happened to be just the little nudge in the right direction that I needed - and now I am almost done with my first app and will probably be releasing it next week. (It is a graphical front-end to Gentoo's rc-update program for anyone interested).
Just keep looking through google - and just tell yourself your not going to stop looking until you figure it out and you will get there. The rewards are definitely worth it!
Derek
Re:problem no 1.: lack of tutorials and beginner d (Score:2, Insightful)
Reading through Slashdot, there are so many people who can write fluently enough to write a few good tutorials. Whenever I figure out something which I consider badly documented, I try to at least put together a little HOWTO-style list of the steps I went through to get program X to preform action Y. Most of these are for my own personal use, but if I've had to spend a lot of time working on a solution, I at least try to clean up my little lists and release it. Most of the time, this takes only about half an hour at the most, and even if you only help out a few people it's worth it.
Most people report bugs to help out with free software, and this is an excellent way to help out, but writing little FAQs and tutorials are just as important. Indeed, lots of open-source development teams hold bug-days, I don't see why every now and again they don't hold 'doc-days'; fifty people writing a few thousand words of documentation for say, Mozilla could make a huge difference in one day.
--jon
open source attitudes (Score:4, Insightful)
No one is getting paid, therefore, things are only as good as what a developer wants, not what an end user may need.
Most of the comments I read focused on money. The problem is, I may *want* to donate money or actually pay for code. The way KDE in particular is coded, though, it makes it hard for others (the Kompany) to write software worth paying for on it (relative to other platforms). So there's a big disconnect there. If more care was taken with the underlying framework, it'd be much easier to have people writing apps that work with less concern for portability - the framework would help take care of that.
Tranisitioning from Win 95->98, or 98->2000 worked pretty well for most apps (excluding games - I dunno about those). People didn't need to go back and recompile apps and redistribute them, most just worked. Why can't it be that easy under KDE?
Back to the payment issue - many of these developers seem *averse* to ever making money from their efforts. Of course the developers don't *need* KDE users, but eventually the users won't need the developers becaus they'll migrate to something else. Without a critical mass of users, any project falls into obscurity. It's not impossible to imagine RH10, for example, not bundling KDE4 because early tests show *nothing* from KDE3 will work on it. "So what?" would be the answer from most KDE devs.
Instead of trying to capitalize on their efforts by creating something which is useful beyond their own immediate needs and longer lasting, many of these developers seem to wear it as a badge of honor that they are *only* in this for themselves, to hell with everyone else.
It'd be great to see something *like* Ximian for KDE - I prefer KDE to Gnome, but at this rate, Ximian seems to be going after user's needs more, and I may just have to switch at some point. DE aside, it's sad to see *SO MUCH POTENTIAL* being thrown away on projects that don't organize themselves effectively.
When you're 5, you have the attitudes and behaviours and respect for others that a 5 year old has (regardless of getting paid!). When you're 10, your attitude, behaviour and respect for others changes and is usually more mature. Same for 15, 20, etc. I don't see that same type of growth pattern happening in the KDE project - it's growing technically, but stagnating attitudinally(?).
Re:open source attitudes (Score:1)
For example... Opera for Linux requires QT to be installed if you want anti-aliased fonts. KDE comes with a version of QT not supported by Opera for Linux; version 3.x. Opera needs 2.x or something. What did I do? I compiled an old version of QT to work along with my new version...
Problem solved.
I feel that there is no obligation for the KDE team to do anything. They already have a great set of programs, and I am thankful for it. If I need anything, I'll hit the forums.
Re:open source attitudes (Score:2)
Regarding Opera, well - if you would have looked well, there is an Opera version to download with QT static build - it's 2MB bigger, but solves all the problems if you don't have QT.
Re:open source attitudes (Score:1)
Re:open source attitudes (Score:2)
Mabey the KDE developers are doing the right thing.
I run both and use apps from the two constantly at the same time. Sometimes it just a matter of choice.
All I have to add is a big THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! to ALL the developers on ALL the OS projects even those that are too small to get any attention from the community.once againg THANK YOU and KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!
Re:open source attitudes (Score:2)
Re:open source attitudes (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:open source attitudes (Score:2)
Win 95->98, or 98->2000 worked pretty well for most apps
Yes, and the same is true for kde apps. Apps written for 1 work ok in 2 and I think 3. That was mentioned in the article. The problem is that was discussed at one point in the article is that apps written for 3 don't necessarily work well in 2.
This would be true under windows as well. If you write an app that takes advantage of an api call introduced in XP, the behavior will be unpredictable under 2000, ME, 98, and 95. The app may not run at all, it may run until you try to access that api call or it may run fine and just lose a feature.
Here's the quote from the article "If a developer wants to write an application which runs on all KDE versions, then use kde1-libs. If the developer wants to write a modern application and still be KDE2 compatible, use Qt2 and KDE2 libs. Whatever the developer wants.... I had this exact issue on Solaris recently. I had an application which used -standard- Solaris -default- libraries, and it would not run on Solaris 2.6 because it was built on 2.8, using 2.8 features. I had to move back to 2.6 and then it would run on all future systems
Re:open source attitudes (Score:1)
Lack of backwards compatability *is* a problem with the KDE project IMHO.
Re:open source attitudes (Score:2)
Also Windows 95 and Windows 98 are identical.
Open Source and Volunteers (Score:4, Interesting)
Granted not ever OS developer craves attention, and some don't even desire it, but deep down its always welcome.
I'm not an OS developer, but being self-employeed, its sometimes hard to get motivated, other times its very easy.
The OS community needs to become much more appreciative to prevent burnout [charitychannel.com]. The article says it best.
Re:Open Source and Volunteers (Score:2)
When I submit bug reports for open-source products, I always praise the product and thank the developers as well as describing the bug. It lets the developers know that their work is being appreciated and may also encourage them to fix the bug. After all, if they receive two reports for different bugs, one that praises them and one that says "your fscking software sucks", which do you think that they'll fix first?
HH
--
Re:Open Source and Volunteers (Score:1)
Now that would be appreciated.
Asskissing up the priority queue is just part of the business world, its better then threats or insults, but followups are essential.
When I notify an author about a bug, he acknowledges and fixes it, a thank you is a good thing.
Politeness has its benefits, though some will see it as asskissing, asskissing done well is still very flattering.
Think about all the nice things you said to get some poontang... Was it all true? Did it work? Was it worth it?
Oh wait... this is /. ! No one has any idea what I'm talking about.
Re:Open Source and Volunteers (Score:1)
These people not only keep the project on track, they can also dedicate their time to getting a project the exposure it needs and then transferring the recognition to the programmers who deserve it. Besides, wouldn't it help to make some non-geeks aware that they too have a stake in the success of OS and that their contributions are welcome?
well this shouldn't surprise anyone (Score:4, Insightful)
Open source coders are more interested in having fun than in producing usable software?? Stallman must be rolling in his gra..er...chair...
If this is a surprise to anyone,they haven't been using linux lately. It's a textbook case of having NO interest, talent, or effort spent on making something usable to an *end-user*. This article and the related discussion threads explain better than anything else could why that is so.
By contrast, look at Mac OSX. Apple decided to make thier next release run on a unix core, and voila, for the first time in 20 odd years, a damn fine user environment for Unix! Methinks it was about time someone gave a shit about the users instead of endlessly insulting them for not being 3l337 enough to use what they were given.
Re:well this shouldn't surprise anyone (Score:1)
[quote]
By contrast, look at Mac OSX. Apple decided to make thier next release run on a unix core, and voila, for the first time in 20 odd years, a damn fine user environment for Unix! Methinks it was about time someone gave a shit about the users instead of endlessly insulting them for not being 3l337 enough to use what they were given.
[/quote]
Give me the money Apple used to create Mac OSX and I guarantee I can make KDE (and probably GNOME also with the same money) to have all the features and "user perspective" as OSX has. I think that Apple has paid every single developer more than KDE project has received money (paid development, hardware etc) total.
Then act like you want money (Score:3, Interesting)
1. It helped create good, stable apps which ran on multiple versions of KDE (within reason)
2. It had a good installation routine.
One shell file, RPM or a few binaries that could install the KDE app in multiple platforms (Alpha, Intel, etc) with a good VE under the KBASIC banner would be worthy of $49 -> $99 easily. Instead, projects like this linger on in 'hobby' mode for YEARS.
Re:Then act like you want money (Score:1)
Back to the point
It's quite not the same thing to develop something and then get the money back from individuals paying some $49->$99 than getting some $150M in front. Look at Ximian. They've done a lot of good to Gnome, but at least I think that Gnome still sucks compared to KDE (I haven't tried G2 though). And why's that? Because Ximian can't put all the money it's got (which is nothing compared to Apple or MS) to improving Gnome since they have to make money too. They do stuff like connector which makes them money but does not help people trying to install a Gnome application.
It's not about acting like anything, it's the basic math.
So I repeat: give me the money _in front_ and I create the user experience.
Then again, I could do some KDE programming and have actually thought of doing so, but not full time because I'm pretty happy doing what I do now. That's why I don't want to start a company. Why don't you do it?
And about the installation stuff: LSB is coming to the rescue (AFAIK) with it's filesystem and object file standards.
Re:Then act like you want money (Score:2)
If you want up front money, and think you have a saleable product, go get investors. That's how pretty much every other company does it. The fact that KDE developers don't do that says either they don't care or they don't believe they have a saleable product (actually, many probably believe NOTHING should be 'saleable' in the first place, but that's a different story).
Re:Then act like you want money (Score:1)
I know none of this by experience or such.
[/disclaimer]
That's what I meant with the Ximian example. They went and got investors and money but yet Gnome isn't what Mac OSX is. It's not that easy with a large project like KDE or Gnome.
I just find it pretty weird that people are saying what other people should or shouldn't do. I don't want to start a company or get investors. If I had an urge to start a company or if KDE's shortcomings disturbed me I just might.
Re:well this shouldn't surprise anyone (Score:3, Informative)
Re:well this shouldn't surprise anyone (Score:1)
Re:well this shouldn't surprise anyone (Score:1)
What's the problem with KDE? If you can find the POWER button in your computer, you can use KDE. Nothing 31337 about that.
Cheers
Re:well this shouldn't surprise anyone (Score:2)
Actually, this article is a pretty good critism on Stallman's position. He believes that people don't necessarily need to be paid to write good software. That a cause is good enough. Afterall, that is the exact reason this whole movement was started -- with Stallman quitting MIT and beginning to write GNU. For those of you unfamiliar with it, let me post and excert from the GNU Manifesto [gnu.org]:
So it should be clear that money wasn't a factor in Stallman's decision to write GNU. I think this is echoed repeatedly since -- people don't typically write free software to make money.
But perhaps the real problem with the KDE project is that people write code for the same reason Linus says he writes code, for the joy of it. With this motivation, there is no room to code for other people. Writing still becomes a selfish activity -- only released freely for other people to use.
Most people here know the history of the KDE and GNOME projects and how GNOME was a response to KDE. Perhaps this was a more of a division on principle than we had thought. That GNOME developers are slightly more inclined to develop to bring people freedom than KDE, which is more of hobbyist group. And when your motivation is freedom, users *do* factor into the equation.
However, its probably more likely that GNOME simply has more paid developers than KDE. But I think the speculation above is valid at some level.
hobby or not - one would want to do it well (Score:4, Interesting)
The good software meets its users needs. And hobby or not, if you want to be good in it, users feedback will only make you better.
Good user feedback... (Score:4, Insightful)
"I love your software, but wouldn't it be cool if it could do XYZZY?"
and
"Your software sucks because it can't do XYZZY!"
The first kind of feedback makes the developers feel appreciated, the second make them think if this is really how they want to spend their free time.
So users essentially have the choice of whether they will be part of the solution, or part of the problem.
Some other user advice:
- Never make demands. It is increadible aggrevating when someone think they have a right to your free time. This also includes formulations like "your project must do XYZZY, otherwise it looks unprofessionel".
- Never make threats, even if you think of them as facts. This includes "unless you implement XYZZY, I'll have to switch to ". If you want to switch, just do it, don't advertise it.
- Never, ever try to take the user community hostage. E.g. "The developer isn't listening to the users, because he doesn't implement XYZZY."
Always remember, it is the developer who (perhaps) do you a favor by releasing his code. You are not doing the developer a favor by using the code. If you feel that relation emotionally stressful, gratis software is probably not for you. Find someone you can pay for the software (whether it is open source or not), in that case it becomes an ordinary economic transaction, where the two parties are equals.
Re:Good user feedback... (Score:5, Insightful)
Good points, but as a developer, I'd appreciate a short factual note saying that a user had switched, and the reasons why. Heck, if half of my users said that they'd switched to open source solution X, I'd have to give serious thought to acknowledging that it might be a better solution, and that my time would be better spent improving it rather than pushing my solution. Sourceforge is absolutely littered with completely obsoleted projects that stagger on through ego and inertia. I'd like to see a see more project pages that say "We're all working on Project X now, and we suggest that you switch too."
Re:hobby or not - one would want to do it well (Score:2)
Every KDE app has a "Report Bug..." item in its Help menu. Isn't that asking for user feedback?
Those reported bugs go to bugs.kde.org, where they are dealt with, not ignored.
I just wish people would pay a bit more attention to what KDE has created, and a bit less to the ramblings of people with personal grudges and axes to grind...
Re:hobby or not - one would want to do it well (Score:2)
Most users are great. But for every ten of them there's one jackass who has to write "it sucks". Sure, we learn to ignore those notes, but our subconscious doesn't. It depresses us.
If you like a program, write to the author and say so. Say what it is that you like about the program. If you don't have anything good to say, then shut up. Find another program that you do like and praise it instead. Constructive criticism is useful and very valuable, but make sure it's constructive before you hit the send button.
Different points of view (Score:1, Informative)
KDE Announcement (Score:1)
Speaking of which, I found it at Google-groups [google.com]. Google was not interested in putting it in their Usenet timeline [google.com], though.
Re:KDE Announcement (Score:1)
"Nothing -- it is simply the K Desktop Environment, just as the X in the X window system.
But now the light is clear! The original message posted on usenet starts out like this:
New Project: Kool Desktop Environment (KDE)
Programmers wanted!
Re:KDE Announcement (Score:2)
Re:KDE Announcement (Score:1)
Reign \Reign\ (r[=a]n), n. [OE. regne, OF. reigne, regne, F.
r[`e]gne, fr. L. regnum, fr. rex, regis, a king, fr. regere
to guide, rule. See Regal, Regimen.]
1. Royal authority; supreme power; sovereignty; rule;
dominion.
He who like a father held his reign. --Pope.
Saturn's sons received the threefold reign Of
heaven, of ocean, and deep hell beneath. --Prior.
2. The territory or sphere which is reigned over; kingdom;
empire; realm; dominion. [Obs.] --Spenser.
[God] him bereft the regne that he had. --Chaucer.
3. The time during which a king, queen, or emperor possesses
the supreme authority; as, it happened in the reign of
Elizabeth.
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :
User action logging (Score:1)
The result of this could be that the first time you started up KDE you would be able to choose from three profiles, roughly translating to 'programmer/advanced user', 'intermediate user' and 'average Joe user'.
Re:User action logging (Score:1)
I think you're target audience has proven, on more than one occasion, that collecting information like that is frowned upon.
I don't think the Slashdot community would have that large of a double standard to lambaste Microsoft on the one hand, and then welcome the same behavior on the other for an open source project.
I may be wrong though.
Re:User action logging (Score:4, Insightful)
I disagree. It depends on who's collecting the information - do you trust them?
I don't like the fact that Windows XP seems to communicate regularly with Microsoft. But I'm happy to run the test builds of Mozilla that send crash info. back to the Mozilla team. I'm sure many others in the OSS community feel the same way.
Re:User action logging (Score:2)
I envisage it working like this:
You can make a proposal, for instance "KDE would be great if it had feature X" or whatever. Then other visitors to the site could vote on the proposals. You would then end up with a scored proposal list.
You should also be able to just make comments.
Although the developers lists exist, I think there really needs to be something for the average user to post to, especially as KDE becomes more popular as a desktop.
Re:User action logging (Score:2)
Oh, wait... KDE's had that since 2.0.
Nevermind. ( bugs.kde.org - it's also for wishes )
--
Evan
Re:User action logging - over-rated? (Score:2)
Here's me thinking I'm giving a good idea to the KDE community and I get modded as over-rated. Strange are the ways of the Slashdot moderator.
Been thinking about that for a while (Score:1)
[Ok I got flamed for my incomprehensable spelling last time I mentioned this, but no other real feedback. My spelling and gramma are no better so feel free to flame away!.]
Statatistics are a bit better than neural nets, but a neural nets is good for working out how to use the stats.
As well as the 'he never does that' approach, you also need to give the user a carrot and stick to train the interface, maybe even a fuzzy stick crtl+ = I want to do this, ctrl+shift+ = I want to do this, but only under current conditions.
The initial interface should be fairly open,
Microsoft tried the 'intelegent' interface before and produced shit head the paper clip, and those nasty hiding menus
on second thoughts the menus maybe not that nasty, the home user functions were shown, but power user functions where hidden, the adverage power user would have been able to work out how to turn the evil menus off.
A case of too much success (Score:1, Redundant)
For the critics of kde I would ask them to think if they would take the time to talk about an unsuccessful project.
Dennis E. Powell's Journalistic Integrity? (Score:2, Informative)
You see, about two months ago, DEP was behind an editorial on Linux And Main that blamed the KDE developers for promoting antisemitism and nazism (!), believe it or not.
Here's an excerpt from that article:
It seemed as if the mystery had finally been solved.
The mystery is what the "K" in KDE stands for. There have been various explanations offered over the years, but nothing has "stuck."
For a time last week, one might have had reason to suppose that "K" was chosen because it is the letter that most resembles a goose-stepping soldier, arm raised in a salute not widely seen since the dark days of the early 1940s.
You can read the whole thing here [linuxandmain.com].
Re:Dennis E. Powell's Journalistic Integrity? (Score:2)
It adressed the problem of how it would not be good for KDE if the project got associated with extreme political views, which, whether right or wrong, are unpopular with most people, because of posts made from kde.org articles with no disclaimers anywhere.
If you go to the article now you might notice an update telling that new messages to that mailing list now have a disclaimer attached to it to avoid any confusion over what views represent the KDE project and what are personal opinion.
I can understand this, it can be daunting. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I can understand this, it can be daunting. (Score:2)
KDE is getting there (Score:1)
The GNOME UI is much better, yet KDE is more stable. Stability is much more important than pretty pictures and I can live with it.
There is significant scope for user growth which will only come from a more polished and more user orientated User Interface.
The Flaw in Open Source Software... (Score:2)
There are many good reasons to write free software: education, personal need, exposure, generosity, and altruism. But idealism will only carry you so far, and at some point, you need to feed and clothe yourself.
Money is more than a way of buying "stuff" -- it is a social contract between individuals, a symbolic binder that defines relationships and responsibilities. For "free" software, the lack of any "binder" between developer and user is a problem that must be addressed.
Re:The Flaw in Open Source Software... (Score:2)
Open Source isn't only volunteer work.
Why its easy to ignore user suggestions (Score:2)
Ok, maybe that's a bit strong, but user suggestions tend to attack the symptom of an underlying problem, not the problem itself. And that's when they are good suggestions. Many suggestions just display the user's lack of understanding of his own needs or the software's capabilities -- perhaps caused by a deficiency in the documentation.
Even users that aren't morons usually aren't programmers. So a genuinely good idea can be ignored as well because of a failure to communicate. They don't know the jargon. They may not understand the program structure of the functions they want to change, so the suggestion of a good feature sounds like the rantings of the uneducated.
Figuring out what would actually benefit the user is a non-trivial task and is definitely NOT just implementing user suggestions.
Re:Why its easy to ignore user suggestions (Score:1, Insightful)
This is a fairly common problem in any development situation, open-source or not, even without users in place (ie learning from internal beta testing or getting the message to pass properly from customer to developer, or management to developer, or vice-versa). In the case of projects with a fairly large amount of people the solution is to find someone (or a group of people) that can act as translators, figuring out what the user wants based on the feedback and telling the developers in words they understand. Unfortunately, whether in a volunteer-based system or not, these types of people tend to be hard to find. Finding someone that wants to volunteer to do that would probably be even harder. Good places to find people to do things like that, though, tend to be with people that do documentation or user support (believe it or not, support personnell that are good at what they do eventually learn how to talk to developers, even if they can't get down to the deep dirty code structures). In short, if it's a decent-sized project, you probably don't want to just choose the programmer most familiar with the project to be the person getting the emails from all of those users, you may want to consider who is best suited to do it, regardless of their programming skills.
Interesting (Score:2)
If you haven't already, check out the comments made to his posting. It's funny to think that something that got dismissed so easily by a number of people is now considered a large part of the way Linux "is".
Re:Interesting (Score:1)
Of course, this was my favorite reply [google.com]. Matthias Ettrich's response had me rolling on the floor.
I think the author of the story is a little lost (Score:3)
First of all, as a general rule, telling somebody their work 'sucks' because feature xyz is missing and needs to be changed will never be well received by a developer. Open Source or commercial. Try it.
Second, the only guaranteed support you'll ever get is the one you paid for. This is why distributions exist and why they offer pay-for support. Good will usually comes when it is given first.
Third, the author seems to think the motivations of Open Source developers differ from commercial ones. I recall in particular the quote "I do this because it's cool" and the criticism following it.
Commercial developers have exactly the same motivations, they do things because they are cool.
Want fast turnover in your company? Keep your programmers working on boring projects. See how good your 'code' is after that.
The author laments about backwards compatability. I compare and respond with: "who the hell wants Windows 1.0 compatability anymore"-- in fact, there isn't a single programmer I know that doesn't twitch violently at the thought of writting win16 software much less supporting it. KDE has been evolving at a dramatic speed. 3.0 is the version has brought it into it's age in my opinion. Everybody I know who actually uses KDE doesn't touch or need 1.0 apps anymore.
I'll finish by commenting on my expericence dealing with/working on commercial software. Most of it sucks monkey balls. It's spaghetti, crap, driven by tight deadlines and endless kludges to fix issues just enough to meet the requirements. 3/4 of the stuff would get laughed of usenet if the code was posted. With open source, distributions and companies can evaluate exactly what they are getting and make changes as is needed. I'll take that freedom over closed binary crap anyday.
Re:I think the author of the story is a little los (Score:1, Insightful)
I'll second that. With notable exceptions, I also had this kind of experience.
Commercial software is only always good in marketing prospects.
Don't know much about open source yet, but things like KDE or Mozilla don't come out of the air, you know. My limited experience shows KDE evolving at an astounding pace.
If I were competing with them, I'd be very worried.
It's interesting to notice that nobody is arguing KDE is lame or doesn't work; this user ignoring thing (which I'm not able to confirm or deny) is indicative of a quickly maturing user-base. We don't look at it and say "Cool!" anymore, we demand it to get better faster and faster.
Need Tech Support Department (Score:3, Interesting)
One: The company knows that programmers are grouchy creative types and aren't especially good talking to l-users.
Two: If they (programmers) hear all the complaints or "suggestions" they will just get frustrated and demotivated.
I can say this is true from personal experience. I work for a small company, where I am both programmer and tech support. I find that I slip into despair about the job I have done less when someone else deals with the tech support "issue." Since, clients/users don't call you to tell you how wonderful your product is, or how they love X feature, or how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread... you are left dealing with the nitpicks (some legitimate and some not).
It ends up making you kick the cat a lot *G*.
So, my advice is to pat your friendly neighborhood developer on the back more often. Talk about what you LOVE in a separate email all by itself. Don't combine a "I love X feature... but...". If yer gonna compliment, send an email with JUST that.
Feature request should be polite and humble. Try to be more questioning (Socratean method), rather than demanding. Lead the programmer to make the same conclusion that you have, but don't just throw it in his face. Lead him to it with questions. He will feel empowered, not helpless and frustrated and put upon. You are building teamwork, not a master-slave relationship.
Re:Need Tech Support Department (Score:2)
except for one client that is.. who has actually called about how good it was. Does wonders, that. And the programmer will be a lot mote inclined to try just that little extra..
Most companies don't seem to care either (Score:1)
Remember deactivating Clippy?
Ever seen really stable software?
I think many of the problem that the article discusses are valid and important, but I also think, that a great lot of it is caused by the usual conflict between programmer/techie against enduser. No programmer loves writing documentation.
No programmer likes to build (in his/her view) pointless features.
Bye egghat.
KDE != good usability / cooperation(users,coders) (Score:1, Flamebait)
The KDE/KWin Enviroment is closer to Windows than to a well configurated Linux/Enlightenment enviroment.
And for users and coders working togther:
It's ALL about communication. If at all, we need a quick and easy way for controling usability and getting users and coders together to discuss the issues arising. Special usability mailinglists of forums for every project would kinda be the thing.
But a former Windoze user to lazy to switch to an enviroment that is so usable he can't even imagine it is NOT the right person to judge usability.
Shame on Slashdot! Releasenot worth a mention? (Score:1, Flamebait)
QUOTING dep:
All that notwithstanding, the initial troll was from a KDE developer, using a kde.org email address, posting to a KDE-sponsored list. Anyone reading the thread will come away with the view that KDE is a product of anti-American, anti-semitic developers pushing an agenda of which the National Socialist party would have been proud, indeed was proud.
source: http://www.linuxandmain.com/modules.php?name=News
This guy has contributed little to nothing to KDE, but he is pissed off because the KDE adressbook was not developed according to his wishes. So he tries to slander the KDE community.
Slashdot is pissing me off, giving this guy a bigger forum and not even mentioning the hard work in the KDE-3.0.2 release!
Re:Shame on Slashdot! Releasenot worth a mention? (Score:2)
I believe the link you're actually looking for is: http://www.linuxandmain.com/comment/ed040702.html [linuxandmain.com].
I was set to take issue with you, but starting out with "the noted anti-Semite Robert Fisk" lost a lot of points for DEP in my book. (People should read the interview with Fisk [laweekly.com] in the LA Weekly, and decide for themselves if he's anti-Semitic or not.) Criticizing European developers for being more supportive of socialism than American developers also shows a lack of connection to the rest of the world that's, well, sadly typical. The "socialism = communism = end of democracy" meme over here has been so successful that most Americans can't conceive of the mere possibility that a fully democratic country might support some kinds of socialism. (Suggest to them that the multiparty parliamentary systems most of those "socialist" countries use are, in fact, arguably more democratic than our "winner takes all" nonparliamentary system, and you might as well be speaking Martian.)
KOffice 1.2beta (Score:1)
Feature: Cathedrals, Bazaars and the Town Council (Score:1, Informative)
This has already been adressed here on Slashdot by Alan Cox.
Slashdot | Feature:Cathedrals, Bazaars and the Town Council [slashdot.org]
... by Slashdot reader, and all around grand master hacker Alan Cox
Alan Cox [mailto] has submitted a piece he calls "Cathedrals, Bazaars and the Town Council". It addresses a lot of really important issues for those involved with distributed software development. It's definitely a must read.
My own personal experience with KDE developpers (Score:1, Informative)
I had contact with several key members of the KDE developper team (David Faure and Laurent Montel from Mandrakesoft and Stefen Westerfeld of Arts fame) and I found that they were nice people, very ready to listen to my point of view.
I'm one user amongst many others, I'm not waiting for them to code my own private shopping list of desired new features next week. But, I certainly don't feel an underclass citizen in the KDE Community.
As a French man , I also want to react against the shameful anti-German utterings of Dep. If KDE is succeeding, it is because it has endorsed some very German qualities : technical excellence, good organizational skills, decision by consensus, a low ratio of overinflated egos, a strong sense of common good and a respect for disagreement.
The KDE project is one example among many others where you can see how much the young generation in Germany is different from what their grandparents were.
Charles
Workspace (Score:1)
But I love the apps. KDE has a much more 'coherent' feel than GNOME (menu placement, configuration, etc.), from app to app. I never tried GNOME2; maybe things have changed.
As a user (not a developer), I can't see why one would change from windows to unix, unless it's a matter of convictions: that's a perfectly valid reason to me.
I still have win98 at home. Games work well, and if I want an office suite, I can install OpenOffice. What if it crashes a little more?
True Story. (Score:4, Interesting)
"That's odd," I replied. "We write programs to solve people's problems."
"No," he shot back. "I code because I like to code. As soon as a user gets hold of it, all he does is start complaining and asking for more features."
Which is true enough, I've since learned. Users' wants are ill-defined as well as infinite.
This all reminds me of my Software Development Rules [slashdot.org] from a few months ago.
Not scratching ones own itch (Score:2)
With the whole crazy push to have Linux take over the desktop, we no longer have this personal itch scratching. KDE developers are trying to figure out how to scratch the itches of people using Windows and MacOS. The disconnect is painful and obvious. And these same developers are, because they have to use KDE et al, adding a heavy developer-centric flavor. The result is a peculiar environment without a target audience. KDE works, I'll give it that, but it's muddled. It's not clear why anyone would want to use KDE instead of Windows. It's more like, "well, I like the Windows UI better, but KDE is the best there is for Linux so I guess I have to use it." And that kind of result doesn't seem to have been worth the man-decades of implementation effort.
I know, I know, KDE fans will mark me as a troll, and Gnome fans will moderate me up. How silly moderation can be!
care to elaborate? (Score:2)
I'm looking at my KDE3 desktop right now...sorry, I don't see anything even remotely like what you describe.
does not pass the smell test (Score:3, Insightful)
dep and his cheerleaders might have a point if KDE programs were difficult to use for "Joe User". IMHO, KDE provides the most User-friendly Linux desktop and apps out there. Given that, what is the point of claiming that KDE developers don't give a damn about users? The statement is a non-starter; it's so demonstrably false. Go check out #kde-user. Browse bugs.kde.org. Read application mailing lists. Hell, use KDE for an hour. Do all that, then come back here and tell me KDE devs don't give a damn about users.
Here's a question I'd like dep or others who buy his line to answer: If KDE developers really didn't care about users, then why would they ever make a release? All KDE devs use KDE straight from CVS; they don't benefit from releases at all. In fact, releases are a pain for developers. They have to halt development during a pre-release freeze, which can last months. During this period, they can *only* work on bugfixes. Often, these bugs are obscure or don't happen on the dev's machine. How can feature-freezes and stable releases exist in a world where KDE does not care about its users? In addition, why bother with i18n? Just write your app in English or German, and to hell with anyone who can't read it! And yet KDE is translated into 40 languages. Hmmm....
AFAICT, dep's just pissed because KMail no longer uses the stone-age address book it did back in the "good old days" of KDE 1.x. Because the devs said they weren't going to revert the addressbook, dep is now on some kind of anti-KDE crusade. Damn, man, get over it! Just put your addresses in a textfile, because that's all the old addressbook was.
My take on KDE (Score:2)
The version of KDE that came with Red Hat 7.2 was hardly as solid as KDE 3. Konqui in particular was touchy. However, after I moved to KDE 3 I was delighted by Konqui's improved stability and improved compliance with Web standards.
I was born Jewish. If anyone would get a "Nazi" vibe off of KDE, it would be me. I don't, this guy is silly, and KDE just works.
Now if only Red Hat would have everything working without tweaking, I'd be a happy camper. You still have to tweak things after you install, which is going to alienate J. Random Newbie.
Breaking things (Score:2)
But "commercial" and "proprietary" don't need to be synonymous. Proprietary software companies can't afford to recompile and tweak their source because of potential support and debugging issues that may come up. But Free software, whether it's commericially made or the result of a hobby, CAN afford to have things break a lot -- there is a wide pool of potential tweakers who can fix things, should there be a demand.
This puts proprietary developers at a disadvantage. On Windows, they can write and compile once, and be (somewhat) sure that their program will run on MS's OS for the next 2 or 3 or 5 years. On Linux, if they don't Free their code, they're fucked by Sunday.
But as Linus Torvalds always says, breaking compatability is a FEATURE of Free software: improvements and security cascade, and the system isn't bogged down with millions of compatability work-arounds.
Getting serious about world domination (Score:3, Interesting)
This attitude is a problem for the future of Open Source. See, there's no reason why we can't, as a community, topple the vast majority of proprietary software in a few years time. But it would take a serious entrepreneurial effort. How so? Well, we need to establish a way for geek and non-geek users alike to fund free software developers to work full time on their pet projects and add a stronger incentive to listen to our feature requests. I think the best way to do this is some type of "code bounty" that can be placed on desired features. Put funds into an escrow until somebody comes along and fulfils the need. Then, that person gets the reward. And make a system by which many people can contribute to a bounty through micropayments, so that even casual users can help out in their small way. Say there's a needed feature missing in Mozilla and 300 frustrated people around the world each pitch in on average $5. That'd be a pretty tempting reward for a project that may take an experienced programmer only a few days to complete. Or, on a larger scale, businesses could become "patrons" to a project and by doing so gain a proportional say in directing development towards their own needs.
Don't get me wrong. There are dozens of other ways to encourage focused OSS development, but it's all about capitalism. Some folks like RMS seem to ignore this, but it's the truth. Open Source needs commercialized so that we geeks can get paid for doing what we love. Keep the software free as in GPL, but let people put their money where their mouth is.
World Domination (Score:2)
Just don't expect KDE developers to drop everything and try to help you. As the threads point out, KDE developers have their own needs, motivations, and problems.
Re:bla (Score:1)
- People say they do it in their spare time and that they don't care if they have users. Then they complain when they can't get drivers, and then they complain they don't get commercial software, and then they complain they don't get commercial backing or support.
That is a really good point. But it sounds like it could more like disgruntlement that they are doing work and other aren't, in their perception at least.Still no KDE3 debs (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Answer (Score:2)
- No money - no responsibility. Money in - responsibility out.
I agree. It is for this reason that companies want to buy support contracts for otherwise free software. For most people in our capitalist society, money is an incredible motivator.This may well be a bad thing.
Re:Answer (Score:2, Insightful)
I hate to say it, but it is exactly for that reason that the system works so well (not perfect, but the best for now). We are all like littles bees, which gather the more pollen they can and take it to their eeves. It is just that instead of pollen, it's bucks... In the long run, it's all the same. We strive to become bigger to feed our sense of survival and our fear of not achieving it. Money in the capitalist model is like a carrot at the end of the stick...
Well, not enough cafein yet...
Back to work!
Re:Answer (Score:2)
For example in Japan money was rice. The more rice you had the richer you were. Problem though is that rice spoiled and rice could be grown. And at some point more rice does not matter anymore.
Success definition? (Score:3, Insightful)
"If you want something that 'just works', go use Windows".
Actual quote from IRC conversations with different project developers over the past 8 months. I guess the attitude can't get much clearer. They don't WANT end users using their stuff, only themslves. WHY it's published on the internet instead of simply their ~/kewlProjects/ dir is beyond me, though.
Glad to see that you read the article. (Score:1, Offtopic)
Really, you've added nothing to the discussion.
Re:Glad to see that you read the article. (Score:1)
Wherever the answer is, it's not going to be found in trying to change other people's motivations. That doesn't work.
Re:Why KDE is WRONG (Score:1)
Re:Why KDE is WRONG (Score:2)
Discuss