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Television Media

Microsoft/HP to Market Crippled Entertainment PCs 403

Posted by michael from the things-santa-should-stay-away-from dept.
gustywinds writes "CNet is reporting that Microsoft and HP recently announced the details on their Media Center PCs that will be coming out this Christmas season (this used to be called 'Freestyle'). The big story is that these PCs will have anti-copying mechanisms built-in to them -- ie can't burn recorded TV shows to DVD, or even copy and play them back on other PCs. And they are going to be expensive... $1500 for the starter box. Sounds like this thing is going to be DOA. Lots of other PC-based TV recording products that aren't restrictive when it comes to copying stuff goes... Snapstream, WinDVR... And, of course, Hauppauge, nVidia and ATi have products too but their software is pretty lacking..."
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Microsoft/HP to Market Crippled Entertainment PCs More

Microsoft/HP to Market Crippled Entertainment PCs

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  • Where can I get one?

    • Here! (Score:3, Informative)

      by Newer Guy ( 520108 )
      http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product _id=1957333&cat=96356&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3 944%3A3951%3A41937%3A86796%3A96356
  • Which is why these boxes will continue to show up as fancy tax-writeoffs for companies
    As soon as the consumer is deemed intelligent not enough to lie, cheat, and steal, all the push for DRM will go away. The companies behind this only want whats best for us.

    And yeah, I believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Gnomes :_)
    • they want whats best for their pocketbook, rightly so. As soon as we as customers convince them,which IS best, I am sure they will blow with the financial wind. The real problem is 'consumer' apathy, as long as a company can make a good profit shoveling shit down consumers'
      throats why should they try any harder ? When we make a the fall-out of a poor decision regarding customer rights a large financial hit things will shape up.
  • Or are they taking stupid injections? Really now, this makes no sense for 1001 reasons. First off, the obvious one that says this will be a dud. But even more important, this opens Pandora's box for the DRM crowd, giving them just what they want. On the other hand, they might realize this and wait for this crap to bomb, just to say: "See DRM people, your ideas are a flop".
    • "See DRM people, your ideas are a flop".

      I was thinking the same thing...how often does an organization purposely market something to fail in an effort to crush 'lesser' competitors? Does anyone have examples?

    • Re:Are they taking stupid pills? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Lemmy Caution ( 8378 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:50PM (#4190969) Homepage
      Microsoft alone is sitting on enough cash that they could pretty much hand these out to everyone and still have cash left in the bank. Also, the content owners (the Sonys, Disneys, Warners et. al.) of the world have a strong vested interest in making sure that only strong-DRM hardware gets into the public's hands.

      So we have a bunch of people who are willing to shell out a lot of money to make sure that no one could really make a living building and selling weak-DRM hardware. Any would-be competitors will find themselves completely underpriced, as content owners subsidize the hardware that protects their "property." I think strong-DRM hardware is pretty much inevitable, considering the cash clout of its backers - they can pretty much control the market.

  • The X Box isn't crippled? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by qurob ( 543434 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:29PM (#4190788) Homepage
    Sure, it's running linux, but isn't it just a crippled entertainment PC?

  • Probably a stalking horse (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sphealey ( 2855 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:29PM (#4190791)
    I would guess that this product is intended to fail. When no one buys it, the RIAA and MPAA will go to Congress and plead that such technology must be required on all audio/video devices, since the feckless consumer won't agree to handcuff himself to the viewing chair.

    sPh

    • Re:Probably a stalking horse (Score:5, Interesting)

      by The_Rook ( 136658 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:34PM (#4190838)
      or, alternatively, the computer makers could use this to show that drm technologies just don't sell and that forcing them to include the technology will ruin their business.

      • Well, I hope so... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by sphealey ( 2855 )
        Problem is, the interests of Microsoft, HP, and Samsung are in much closer alignment with the interests of the RIAA and MPAA than they are with the interests of Joe Consumer.

        Particularly Microsoft - now that the growth if off the PC rose, they desperately need new revenue streams to replace the upgrade treadmill.

        sPh

        • Re:Well, I hope so... (Score:3, Interesting)

          by swb ( 14022 )
          Problem is, the interests of Microsoft, HP, and Samsung are in much closer alignment with the interests of the RIAA and MPAA than they are with the interests of Joe Consumer.

          Are they? Given that its 2002 and several iterations of products from MS, HP and Samsung have supported MP3, much to the profitability of those companies but we STILL DON'T have any move forward technologically from the RIAA, I wonder how badly they really want to anchor themselves to the RIAAs intrasingence and lack of growth or flexibility?

          I'd give you that MS has more in common with RIAA than the hardware vendors, but I'll bet that a lot of leaders at the hardware companies just wish the best they had to do was change the color of their products every 12-18 months and not get their clocks cleaned by their competitors.
          • It also servers Microsoft's best interest to stomp out piracy and casual copying as well as have a subscription model. With TCPA aka palidome, this will become a reality. The RIAA/MPAA will benifit and so will microsoft since casual copying will be eliminated with future verisons of Windows that rely on TCPA just to boot. I agree that pallidrome is part of Microsoft's .net strategy for securing their wallets as well as your computer and also killing linux as a side benifit. They have everything to gain. Only the consumer loses.

    • Customer satisfaction is irrelevant to Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)

      by GuyMannDude ( 574364 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:44PM (#4190916) Journal

      I would guess that this product is intended to fail.

      That was the impression I got from reading the article, too. Consider this snipit:

      Matt Rosoff, a Directions on Microsoft analyst, sees another motivation at work and one that has more to do with future business prospects than concerns about customer dissatisfaction or potential legal problems.

      "Microsoft generally believes that digital entertainment, digital media, is the thing that's going to drive the next cycle of PC upgrades," he said. "There's not that much more new you can do with your PC that you're not already doing."

      Microsoft hopes to sell Hollywood its digital rights management technology. At the same time, the company doesn't want Hollywood to use its marketing or legal muscle to shut the PC out of digital entertainment.

      "If the content owners look at the PC as this Wild West where the content and intellectual property is stolen, the content owners will try to get around the PC," Rosoff said. "That's something Microsoft wouldn't want to see happen."

      This makes it sound very much like the primary motivation for creating this system is to make friends with the RIAA & MPAA. I think customer satisfaction is secondary to them. And remember, this is Microsoft we're talking about here. They have a monopoly on OSs. They can pretty much do what they want and the customers will be stuck with it. And Apple-heads and Linux-fans, please don't start screaming at me. I hear you. The problem is mainstream America doesn't.

      GMD

      • I think this sentence says it all, really:"There's not that much more new you can do with your PC that you're not already doing."
      • "If the content owners look at the PC as this Wild West where the content and intellectual property is stolen, the content owners will try to get around the PC," Rosoff said. "That's something Microsoft wouldn't want to see happen."


        This makes it sound very much like the primary motivation for creating this system is to make friends with the RIAA & MPAA. I think customer satisfaction is secondary to them.

        I think you're wrong. There's already a power struggle going on for digital rights management, and, if the RIAA can't have their way through legislation or hardware compliance, do you honestly think they won't simply push the crippled-disc idea even further? There will come a day, probably very soon, where watermarked and encrypted (DVD-A) discs are the rule, not the exception.

        Microsoft looks to be Covering Your Ass here, and appears to be merely paying lip service to the record industry. Why on earth would they deliberately alienate the consumer?

        - A.P.

    • Re:Probably a stalking horse (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Slowping ( 63788 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:54PM (#4190989) Homepage Journal
      Kinda off-topic to the parent post, but I wanted to share this tidbit.

      I used to be an intern at a research lab of a large technology company. Approximately six months ago, we hosted a large meeting between representatives of this company, and the technical advisors to congress-people regarding digital rights.

      Anyways, I can't say much about the details, just in case I step over some confidentiality restrictions. But I will say this...

      This group of advisors think that the V-Chip was a great success.

      Several of them were excited about the idea of putting watermark signals in video, that camcorders would recognize and refuse to record. ... to plug the "analog hole".

      The tech company representative argued that there are existing laws to handle theft, and that theft is a social and educational problem, not a technological problem. But, judging from the faces of the advisors, I would guess that all of them dismissed the idea.

      Think about that. Discuss.

  • Our modern age ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by i_want_you_to_throw_ ( 559379 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:30PM (#4190799) Journal
    It seems that the order of cracking as always been that some huge company comes up with technology and then someone comes along and cracks it.

    During our modern age, it has been the reverse where formats have been created that allow copying and wide dissemination of info and companies come along try to stop it (through heavy handed lawsuits) or try to co-opt it or better (worse?) yet offer a competing scheme that requires you pay for it and ... duh ... no one buys it.

    Feel free to add as needed.

    Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these? Not people... companies? Possibly..
    When corporations are held liable for employees downloading files then maybe companies might go to buy these as a liability hedge.

    A real tightly defined scenario sure.......
    • "Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these? Not people... companies? Possibly..
      When corporations are held liable for employees downloading files then maybe companies might go to buy these as a liability hedge."

      exactly... or the thing that will happen is that the boxes will be sold at a great financial loss to people so as to hedge the "losses" from piracy.

      so some companies will think that they are getting a deal on the machines - but really they will be hurting themselves by getting locked into some crappy system.
    • Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these? Not people... companies? Possibly..
      How about consumers who wouldn't know what DRM is, wouldn't know why copy-protection would affect them? You forget that the world at large is a lot more ignorant about these issues than you. Hence everyone who does know has an obligation to try and educate others. And I should think we'll see these products increase in number, as more and more hardware is produced with built-in copy protection, with lots of support from DRM kings Microsoft (becausee of course a machine with lots of copy-protection built into the hardware is far less likely to go on to run a Free operating system...). As they become widespread, unless educated about them, or unless they are inconvenienced significantly by them, the public are likely to accept them. That said, I can see this as being a very good opportunity for some anti-DRM campaigning wherever these boxes are sold.
    • Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these? Not people... companies?

      Why would companies want multi-media PC's? Most places I've worked in, company PC's dont even have sound cards, let alone the rest of it. Even media companies wouldn't buy these, they're probably already using Mac's for this kind of thing.

      No I'd say they are definately targetted at home users, look at the timing - they're coming out in time for the holiday season.

      I still think they'll fail though - I can see two types of people buying these - parents for their kids, and non technical people who spend money on audio/video equipment. The kids will be disappointed when they can't use kazaa or whatever to share their CD's with their friends; and the audio buffs, well I would say it depends heavily on product reviews, given the price point, a few mediocre reviews will probably put them off.

      • No I'd say they are definately targetted at home users, look at the timing - they're coming out in time for the holiday season. I still think they'll fail though ...(rest deleted)


        I think they'll fail as well. Did they do ANY type of survery before going production? They SAY they're targeting students and techie types who would want this. They also say that 'some' may not buy because of the inability to make any copy. Gee..I wonder what group that would be.. possibly the students and techie types??

        There also better be one hell of a disclaimer .. and not on a shrink wrap but the outside of the box. They tie the anti-copying to the drive? And in a box, what's the most likely to fail.. the mechanical parts... like a moving hard drive. Can you see the happy individual that has recorded some unbelievable event or other once-in-a-lifetime item. If the drive fails, it's gone. Even if they backed up, and replace the drive, it's gone. If they upgrade to the next 'new and improved' HP/MS model, it's gone. (so much for a product cycle/replacement time for this device). There are going to be some angry people, but the facts won't be discovered by (probably) most until possibly several years out. Talk about angry mobs (and all those lawyers that just love class action suits and say 'you never disclosed that before they bought the PC').

        Minimally, they could allow it to make DVD's at the resolution for NTSC. It's not like they're recording HDTV, which is the premise that Hollywood has been supposedly using to get the anti-copying and protection saying 'we can't let those high def images get copied even once'. So much for the real true in wierdoland... i mean Hollywood. They're STILL trying to get the betamax case reversed their own way, since they've never really accepted it. It seems redmond is sucking up to them yet again. The spines at redmond seem to be non-existant.. unless they're supported by a $ sign, IMHO. (Besides, I've still yet to hear any drums beating for 'converged' systems. Just what HP needs to be tossing money at after their merger.)

    • I'll agree with others that the idea for both MS and HP is, as others have suggested, to make friends with the RIAA and MPAA, and get those content companies to trust the way MS and HP control access and copying. The unfortunate answer to the question
      Who the hell would be dumb enough to buy one of these?
      would appear to be, in the long term, anyone who wants to play mainstream audio or video content on their PC. Having a copy in some format other than those that are "properly" controlled will be de facto evidence of both copyright violation under the DMCA (because it wasn't released by the owner in that format, so your copy must be unauthorized) and patent violation under the damned software patent system (some aspects of the Windows Media formats are covered by patents, so any reader is illegal unless licensed by MS, and licensed readers will have to honor the protection scheme).

      I am not pleased with the way the future of digital media is unfolding...

  • It seems as though the businesses that do this sort of thing are suffering from wishful thinking. The DIV/X vs. DVD fiasco should have taught companies that you can't take away what consumers already have; it's like King Canute trying to hold back the tide. And Napster is another example: they cut off the hydra's head and out popped seven more, ready to eat the music industry.

    I would like to know more about why they've put something into an expensive system that they have got to know is going to kill it in the marketplace. Do Microsoft and HP have ties to the entertainment industry I don't know about?

    One thing's for certain -- the future of home entertainment is changing, but the "Media Center PC" is not where it's going.

    • It seems as though the businesses that do this sort of thing are suffering from wishful thinking. The DIV/X vs. DVD fiasco should have taught companies that you can't take away what consumers already have;
      Sure you can; you just mandate it by law and arrest any major manufacturer who designs/sells such devices. That won't stop the dedicated hacker, but it will stop 99.995% of the total population.

      If you can tie such a requirement into the "War on Terrorism" or the "War on Drugs", so much the better. "Oh Mr. Senator, Al Quida is using TiVo to trasmit coded messages across the Internet! We need DRM laws right away!"

      sPh

      • The problem with this is that congress is happy to pass stupid laws (like the DMCA) if the group that is impacted is relatively small (Linux users who want to watch DVDs), but this is going to affect a much larger group of people. When the voters realize that their congressman or senator is pushing a bill that is likely to triple the price of the average PC and make it less useful in the process you can bet there will be repercussions. No amount of Hollywood contributions are likely to keep such a politician in office. Politicians can yank around fringe groups (again, like Linux users), but they can't afford to tick off the millions of voters that simply want to make home movies and email them to Grandma.

        Not to mention the fact that the last thing that Microsoft wants to see is a rise in the price of computers. The lower the prices are for PCs, the more PCs get sold, and since Microsoft gets their royalties on a per PC basis, they want to see hardware prices that are as low as possible.

        In short, this is a project designed to fail.

      • Hehehehe arrest manufacturers, you do realize that almost all appliance manufacturing goes on in either China or Tiawan, right? These people are in it to sell boxes, not prop up the media cartels, and their government is not about to arrest people for giving the public what they want. In most of the world for instance selling region free DVD players is perfectly legal, in fact several governments have said that the region system is an illegal trade descrimination method. You need to go read bbc.co.uk and some other media outlets not controlled by the weird hollywood idea men.
        • Hehehehe arrest manufacturers, you do realize that almost all appliance manufacturing goes on in either China or Tiawan, right?
          Dude, the secretary to the President of the United States was detained by Customs for bringing more than 5 Beanie Babies (tm) into the United States from Canada in her luggage on board Air Force One (during the Clinton Admin). Do you think the powers that be would hesitate for a New York minute to slam the sales and marketing reps of those offshore mfgs into prison?

          sPh

  • Samsung Will Manufacture, Too (Score:3, Informative)

    by great throwdini ( 118430 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:31PM (#4190810)

    The $1500 price is entry-level for the HP model. According to the article, Samsung will also manufacture these entertainment PCs. Who knows, maybe they'll offer the product at a lower price point.

    'Freestyle' refers to the version of Windows to be used (now 'Window XP Media Center Edition'), not the actual manufactured boxes.

    Also, news.com reports that both HP and Samsung models will be available *before* Christmas season. Apparently even story submittors have stopped reading the articles. :P

  • Oh cool! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MAXOMENOS ( 9802 ) <mike@mikesmYEATS ... n.com minus poet> on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:31PM (#4190813) Homepage
    Another great idea from Microsoft! I want it to run on my Linux box. Anyone want to write the driver for a remote control receiver? I'll provide the SWIG wrappers and hook it up to my CD-ROM...

    This could be fun!

  • not just the price, but the market (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Lxy ( 80823 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:33PM (#4190825) Journal
    The article states a price of $1,500-$2,000. Then it talks about marketing them to COLLEGE STUDENTS. Think about that... the college students are the ones most opposed to DRM technologies! For less than $1,000 I can put together a machine with an ATI All in Wonder Pro DVR and a massive disk without the DRM inhibitions. Funny thing is, college students are the ones to figure this out first.

    • Re:not just the price, but the market (Score:5, Funny)

      by Ralph Wiggam ( 22354 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:45PM (#4190934) Homepage
      And your typical college student surely has $1500 to toss around on a new computer.

      **from the twisted dreams of MS's marketing dept**
      Salesguy: And it's a lot like your current computer, but it does less and costs more.
      College kid: And it's new and hip, right?
      Salesguy: Absolutely.
      College kid: Do you take cash?
      *************

      If I had ever had $1500 at one time while I was at college, I would have changed it into 20's and rolled around in it naked.

      -B
      • And your typical college student surely has $1500 to toss around on a new computer. If I had ever had $1500 at one time while I was at college, I would have changed it into 20's and rolled around in it naked.

        Now you can get student loans specifically for computers. I have yet to meet a college student who turns down loans. I have been out for 9 years, and mine are just about paid off.

        I spent $2200 on a computer back then, from money I saved. It was a screamer for the time - 386DX-33 (not one of those wussy SX's). 80 MB hard drive, and I upgrade to 2 MB of RAM. It was worth the extra $100. And I had BOTH kinds of drives - 3.5 and 5.25. Sweet....

        Then my roommate went out a year later and spent the same amount for a 486-25. Man, was I pissed, but I knew that he would never be able to use all that processing power. Ahh, the days of playing "drinking Links386" and "drinking Scorched Earth".

    • Then it talks about marketing them [DRM-enforcing PCs] to COLLEGE STUDENTS. Think about that... the college students are the ones most opposed to DRM technologies!
      <flamebait>
      Sounds like a good way to get the underachieving, lazy, waiting for daddy's job, dishonest, thieving, substance-abusing, parasitic growths amongst the generally upright and ethical student population to knuckle down and start studying for a change.
      </flamebait>

      But then, if pigs could fly, we'd need much stronger umbrellas.

      Karma:Chameleon (sometimes very affected indeed)

    • "Free" OS (Score:2, Insightful)

      by deanpole ( 185240 )

      Soon Microsoft's operating system will be free, not just from Linux competition, but because of media management revinue. Thier digital restrictions management (DRM) will collect viewing fees from which Microsoft will keep a cut. Can you say, "Blockbuster Video on steroids"?

      It is a fairly simple business plan. They become a regular utility bill.

    • "...the college students are the ones most opposed to DRM technologies!"

      Think about ALL college students, not just Slashdot geeks. On the whole, college students don't know enough about computers to even understand what DRM is. The average college student doesn't know the first thing about computers and has never heard of DRM or the DMCA. Sure there are some that know what's going on: some gamers, some CS students, and the like, but they are in a small minority. How do I know this? I used to have a work-study job at a college computing center, and not only were the students pretty ignorant, the other student workers (who were gamers and CS students), weren't any better off!

      "I can put together a machine with an ATI All in Wonder Pro DVR and a massive disk without the DRM inhibitions. Funny thing is, college students are the ones to figure this out first."

      The average college student CERTAINLY can't build his or her own box, and if you look around, you'll notice that, sure enough, they don't. They use Macs, Gateways, Dells, and Compaqs, but very few of them are generic component-based PCs. Of course, many of those in turn came preassembled from screwdriver shops and weren't built by their users.

      The point is that the average college-aged Slashdot reader is not representative of the entire population of college students. You may be in college, but those bimbos in MTV's Sorority Life are in college too!

  • MS shooting themselves in the foot? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:34PM (#4190831) Homepage Journal
    Microsoft generally believes that digital entertainment, digital media, is the thing that's going to drive the next cycle of PC upgrades," he said. "There's not that much more new you can do with your PC that you're not already doing."

    Problem is, if the user cannot transfer their digital content, be it original work, copyrighted audio or video, to their next PC, they aren't likely to upgrade. What will Microsoft do in two years when their current customers will want to upgrade their PC, but won't for fear of losing their digital content? If Microsoft is indeed right in saying that digital media will drive PC upgrade cycles, they are being quite shortsighted by releasing an OS which ties all of a consumer's digital media to their current machine.

    • Re:MS shooting themselves in the foot? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by crawling_chaos ( 23007 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:38PM (#4190868) Homepage
      they are being quite shortsighted by releasing an OS which ties all of a consumer's digital media to their current machine.

      Of course, by moving to a subscription model for the OS, which ties your media to your subscription fee, they can make sure that Joe Consumer forks over however much they want to ask for in subscription fees. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I think this is where MS is headed with this.

    • They will use a license key that is generated on the first PC and can me easily transferred to the second PC.

      ALthough, if past experience is any indication, you'll be stuck with one file and 20,000 that may or may not work.

      Will be cracked in hours.
  • I though HP said they were trying to get OUT of their trend of losing business and market share..

    Producing entire warehouses of dead computers that no one will buy seems quite counteractive to that plan.

    Shrug.

    =-Jippy
  • Gee, it costs $1500 and doesn't do half of what a $500 PC does today! Where do I sign up?

    The sad thing is that it's like the RIAA-sponsored music sites - a project designed to fail.

    When HP and MSFT testify that "We tried to sell cripped PCs but nobody bought them" to Congress, Congress' solution will by to make it illegal to buy non- crippled PCs.

    If you made boxen at $400 apiece, but can only sell them at $500, would you continue to do so, or would you rather collude with Hollywood to get Congress to make the $500 PCs illegal, so that you can sell the same hardware, crippled, at $1500?

    If you're part of the crowd that wants to rant about how capitalism's destroying the world, I'd urge you to make sure you're really talking about capitalism before you rant.

    A capitalist (one who believes in a market based in the exchange of goods or money between voluntary participants) would continue to sell non-crippled boxen at $500.

    If HP and MSFT get in bed with Hollywood to get Congress to force consumers to buy $1500 crippled entertainment centers, (by banning the $500 non-crippled computers, which consumers seem to prefer), they cease to become capitalists.

  • I can buy myself a high end PC that's just like all other PCs made today that let's me burn cds/dvds and do what I will with my media, and I can pay about $1000 USD for it. Or, I can buy the same PC but WITHOUT the ability to do what I'd like with my media, and pay $1500-$2000 USD. Um...I...I think I'll take the first one.

    Oh yeah, and I thought it was quite comical that when I pulled up the article about how HP was trying to sell this crap, I got a huge banner ad for Dell.

  • about $100 sounds right (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bigpat ( 158134 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:37PM (#4190858)
    This thing is definately DOA.

    Unfortunately it will probably prevent some little company from getting VC for coming out with a decent version of this. Which is probably the intent anyway.

  • It is POC for RIAA and MPAA (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kefaa ( 76147 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:40PM (#4190886)
    That strategy might make sense as Microsoft attempts to attract Hollywood movie studios with its digital rights management and anti-copying technologies.

    This is NOT DOA, because it is not about PCs or PVRs or multimedia control. It is a Proof of Concept to sell the Digital Rights Management of MS to the MPAA and RIAA. Then the MPAA and RIAA will then use their money to ensure that ALL PCs have a DRM built into them.

    While we can whine and cry that "no machine we buy will!!!", It is a non-issue. Dell, Gateway, Compac/HP, etc. will continue to sell their millions of boxes to the various businesses, and Mom & Dad like always. Legislation will pass that requires DRM and those that do not have it will be marginalized as criminals.

    This is not the war, this is just the start of the battle. MPAA/RIAA make be seeing they will never get another DMCA, so they need to control "just content". MS sees the opportunity to manage every piece of electronic data on the web. 95% of the OS market is child's play by comparison.

    The way these things fail is if someone manages to circumvent it in the first few months in a way that every 12 year with a 56k connection can bypass it.

    • Very sad. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by standards ( 461431 )
      I'm very sad to totally agree with your analysis.

      This isn't an attempt for Microsoft to sell PCs or Windows.

      Instead, this is an attempt to gain lobby support from MPAA/RIAA ... so that congress can bless the "proven Microsoft Way" and force the Microsoft "technology" onto the rest of us.

      It all comes back to the Microsoft strategy - once you're locked in, you can complain... but you're still a paying customer...
      • "Instead, this is an attempt to gain lobby support from MPAA/RIAA ... so that congress can bless the "proven Microsoft Way" and force the Microsoft "technology" onto the rest of us"

        Well, look at the bright side: Since it's MS, you can bet it'll be exploitable. :)

        It'd sure beat the hell out of anything Sony'd dish out. Anybody remember that Spiderman soundtrack that had PC stuff on it, but the anti-PC protection prevented it from working? Heh.
  • what are they going to do with the unsold units?
    • Maybe Make a Beowolf cluster from them....

      Seriously, everyone is going to have a boatload of these things on their shelves, unless some poor geeks can be persuaded to load them with Linux.

  • Yes, it's nice to be able to record stuff, but the price tag is too high on this new box.

    My TiVo was a lot less expensive and offers the same functionality as far as video is concerned. But the TiVo seems to suffer the same "locked to play only from the same box that recorded the stream" syndrome (although it seems if you're willing to jump through constantly changing hoops it's possible to circumvent that. With 2 x 100 B disks to record my shows, I haven't been motivated yet to jump through the hoops (PPP out of the back serial port.)

    At some point someone is going to release some free, easy-to-use software for capturing and editting video.

    And, at some point someone is going to sell the hardware that makes this easy to do from your couch and easy to plug Ethernet, extra hard drives into the back. It doesn't have to cost $1500, either.

    When those things happen, there will be a furor in Hollywood unlike what you've seen so far.

    • Re:To be fair... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Erasmus Darwin ( 183180 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:02PM (#4191044)
      "My TiVo was a lot less expensive and offers the same functionality as far as video is concerned."

      Doh! You beat me to the punch on pointing out that it has the same restrictions as a TiVo.

      Anyway, while a TiVo is cheaper, you're leaving out the PC functionality. If we go with the price of a comparable TiVo as being $300 (leaving out the subscription fees, though it's possible that Microsoft might include TV listings in their purchase price), that leaves an extra $1200. For a consumer PC sans monitor, that just doesn't seem that bad. Allocate some of the money toward the "integration/convenience factor", and you'll got a deal that I think some people will go for.

      I think the major deciding factor will be whether or not people actually like having a PC near their TV. The price and the television capture restrictions are secondary.

  • The restrictions on this device don't sound too different from those on my TiVo. With the TiVo, I can record shows for playback on the unit, but the company has delibrately made it difficult to get the shows anywhere else. While this does restrict the TiVo's functionality, it's also been a factor in putting them in a better relationship with the networks.

    If I didn't already own a TiVo and hadn't recently purchased a new PC (of similar specifications and a comparable sticker price), I would seriously look into buying this system.

  • Doesn't Anyone Use Computers to Compute Any More? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by reallocate ( 142797 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:53PM (#4190983)
    I dunno...buying an overpriced, shackled, computer to watch and record music and (God help us) TV programs makes about as much sense as buying an overpriced TV to run your spreadsheets. Did the people running MS, HP, AOL, and all the rest have childhood fantasies about being movie moguls? This all smacks of a hangover from the late and unlamented flash-in-the-pan known as "convergence".
    • Perhaps they just believe that there are *enough* people who don't use a computer to compute. They may well be right. My wife, e.g., uses it to edit music/art via commercial programs, and to word process, and for web access and e-mail. And that's about it.

      But she's not going to get one of these! When it came time to change computers, I switched her over to a Mac. With a Linux partition. If Linux can get good enough, when she upgrades, it will be to a pure Linux machine. For now, it's to be Linux for internet access (so her Mac data isn't threatened by internet viruses), and the Mac for everything else. But I intend to use Open Office for the Word Processor (or possibly Star Office, after I check it out) and Mozilla for the browser. So she'll be half way converted before the year's out.

      Still, the conversion can't happen until an art program as good a Deneba Canvas is available, and until a music program as good as Encore is available. But it's getting a LOT closer.
      • I use my computer to:
        Read Slashdot and Hotmail
        Look at pr0n and other cool web sites
        Play computer games
        Listen to MP3s that I download from Kazaa.

        Occasionally some "computing" happens there but my broadband-connected computer is basically a TV replacement device.

        Now, I would never buy a mass-market PC like HP or Dell for home use (though I recommend Dell to non-geeks looking for a system) but I can totally see how some fool might buy one of these things, based on the media blitz we'll see around XMas.

        In the inevitable lawsuits, HP will be left holding the bag while Microsoft laughs all the way to the bank. It amazes me that there are still companies gullible enough to partner with Microsoft on hardware. (Like have you seen Nvidia's stock lately?)

  • Another one on the list... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @02:57PM (#4191011)
    Of reasons HP investors will sue the board of directors. Carly Fiorina, that idiotic Compaq merger, and now releasing these systems... morons.
  • If you own a Mac, none of the above solutions will work with a Mac. The only combo - HW/SW - product that has been designed for MacOS X is El Gato's EyeTV [elgato.com]. It's nowhere as powerful as a TiVo but it works well and you can even burn the recordings as a VCD. It has no DRM either. It connects to any newer Mac with a USB cable and the installation is a snap. I own it and use it quite often to watch TV (and record Simpsons) on my iBook.

    For a review, check this: http://www.macintoshdigitalhub.com/reviews/eyetv/i ndex.html [macintoshdigitalhub.com]

  • May you live in interesting times (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Graspee_Leemoor ( 302316 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:05PM (#4191070) Homepage Journal
    I can only hope that there are enough clueful computer users who violate intellectual property to create a large market for non-DRM hardware.

    The thing is, I can't imagine that there will be a time when you can't compile and run your own programs because there are just too many developers out there. And if you can compile and run programs you can compile and run xvid codecs. If MS decide to have processors check for xvid etc headers then you can change the xvid headers to something else- put the info fields in a different order etc.

    If people can't transfer their home videos to their pc, or their photos or home-made music, they're going to get pissed-off.

    In fact, thinking about it, if Palladium is everything we fear, AND it becomes so that you can't even buy loose components that aren't palladium-based, then I don't see how you wouldn't get a huge mega-meltdown-apocolypse as people refuse to upgrade their computers.

    It's certainly going to be interesting.

    graspee

    • In fact, thinking about it, if Palladium is everything we fear, AND it becomes so that you can't even buy loose components that aren't palladium-based

      Hardware that is "palladium-based" means that it meets the TCPA specification, and the TCPA specification is by definition platform and OS agnostic. IBM has been selling Thinkpads that meet the TCPA specification for about a year now, and people install other OS's on them all of the time. Even if your far-fetched worst case scenario becomes a reality, nothing will stop you from installing Linux/FreeBSD/DOS/CPM/etc.

  • MS Business Sense (Score:2, Informative)

    by DaytonCIM ( 100144 )
    "Sounds like this thing is going to be DOA. Lots of other PC-based TV recording products that aren't restrictive when it comes to copying stuff goes..."

    If Microsoft follows their typical business plan, they'll likely buy out one or two of the larger competitors, price out the rest, and then consumers will only have MS and maybe a lesser known "open-source" product from which to choose.

  • DivX ;-) Cube (Aluminum Mini Computer) [lik-sang.com]

    The DivX Cube (Aluminum Mini Computer) is one of the first good looking all-in-one PC solutions to create your own audio and video station which can perfectly be integrated into your existing home theatre system.

    Why would anybody want that overpriced, crippled alternative??

  • A better idea! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nolife ( 233813 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:10PM (#4191096) Homepage Journal
    While browsing around, I found what appears to be a standalone unit [walmart.com] that you can use to browse and record broadcast television, includes no DRM controls, includes a 19inch screen, a remote control unit, speakers, and is contained in ONE unit. It does not record the broadcast digitally but the medium it uses appears to be compatible with 1000's of other units and is cheaper then any memory stick or other removeable device I've ever seen. I imagine a device like this sitting next to your computer would be a more logical choice for only $169.
  • Maybe I can set it up as a server for my Audrey terminals.... the blind leading the blind, so to speak.
  • I bought an All In Wonder Radeon 8500DV with the tuner and it works great!

    The GATOS [sourceforge.net] project is very mature and all the Linux video drivers and TV capture features work flawlessly.

    Combine that with a 120G harddrive and I never need to remember to set the VCR to record West Wing [nbc.com]! :)

  • $1500? Twice what it's worth! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by steevo.com ( 312621 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:14PM (#4191118)
    I recently put together a box to do the same thing, ut $1500 it was not.

    Shuttle S50 - $300
    Celeron 1.8 - $100
    256MB DDR - $75
    80 GB HDD - $85
    DVD (w/WinDVD) $50
    Hauppage FM-TV tuner w/ remote - $100
    SnapSteam SW - $40
    --------------------
    $750

    It outputs to my TV, records what I want, and I can watch DVD, DIVX, VCD, MP3, CD, etc. PLUS I can watch any recorded show on any moachine on my network. What do I get for the other $750

  • HP and Microsoft Revive old IBM Idea (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mchummer ( 580167 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:26PM (#4191200)
    Hp and Microsoft announced today that they're updating an old idea for the 21st century.

    Following the IBM lead of many years ago they've created: ...... "The PC Jr. - Media Center Edition"....

  • This could be very successful (Score:3, Insightful)

    by n9hmg ( 548792 ) <n9hmg@hotmaiGAUSSl.com minus math_god> on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:30PM (#4191226) Homepage
    Remember, there are two ways to get someone to buy something.
    1. You can make something they want, so that they choose to buy it
    2. You can make it legally mandatory, either by direct requirement, or by outlawing the alternatives.
    Which approach do you think best describes the marketing plan for this product?
    Turing machines in the hands of private citizens are as dangerous to our current ruling class as were weapons in the hands of the peasants in feudal times. Next thing you know, we'll start having laws ignoring the constitution and restricting our right as individuals to keep and bear arms.

  • Freevo (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SubtleNuance ( 184325 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:32PM (#4191242) Journal
    Have a look at this project @ SourceForge; Freevo [sourceforge.net]

    There are others, like DVR [sourceforge.net], MythTV [mythtv.org], HomeDVR [sourceforge.net]

    And there are here [apestaart.org] and here [sourceforge.net]

    Really, we dont need another device - a PC will work for this...

  • You can shove your Convergence up your .... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by imadork ( 226897 ) on Tuesday September 03, 2002 @03:35PM (#4191261) Homepage
    All the people who are whining about how overpriced this is should note that MS intends for this not to be a set-top box, but a full-fledged computer that you watch TV on.

    So, lets assume that you'll get close to $2000 worth of computer for your money. My only question is: why?

    DVRs, which are sold as companion products for TVs by TiVo and Sonicblue's ReplayTV, are expected to become standard equipment on PCs over the next few years, say analysts. ... Don Simon, a Windows user from Seattle, Wash., recently bought a Vaio RX780G PC. The avid TiVo user has networked other PCs to the Vaio, so he can "seamlessly watch TV on any PC in my house.

    Do I have to turn in my geek credentials because I don't find TV on the PC all that compelling? I love DVDs on my laptop, and streaming audio and video, but we already have devices that are perfect to watch TV on... they're called televisions!. They have a simple UI and crash far less often than Windows does. We've had a box under the TV recording shows for years... Why does this box have to turn into a full-fledged computer just because we want to record these shows digitally now?

    I have a TiVo and love using it, precisely because it doesn't feel like a computer when I'm using it! (Of course, it is -- the fact that I can upgrade the HD and add ethernet myself doesn't hurt, either.) When I want to rot my brain watching TV, I want it to just work, and I don't want to have to feel like I'm using a computer.

    I always thought that Convergence meant that all of your dedicated media devices (which may actually be computers, but with a simpler UI) could talk to each other and exchange information, kind of like what Apple is trying to do with its iPod. Microsoft thinks Convergence means that all of your dedicated media devices become computers, running the latest MS OS, and with all of the problems and complications inherent in that. Of course, we know who's most likely to win this one...

    Of course, the sad thing is that by making dedicated media devices more like computers and stuffing them chock-full of DRM badness, we'll end up making the actual computers more like dedicated media serving devices, since the same OS will run on both. :(

  • ...
    quack. quack. quack! quack! quack!
    DRM protects the consumer.
    quack. quack. quack! quack! quack!
    ...
  • Meta Group analyst Steve Kleynahans said that Microsoft made the decision to put in the copy protection fairly far along in the development of Windows XP Media Center Edition.

    "I know this wasn't in the product all along," he said. "I think it was Microsoft being overcautious. I really think it's unfortunate because it does hamper the functionality and usability of the platform."

    I wonder what HP's response was, when Microsoft told them they were going to cripple the machine ?

  • OK... where's the details/facts?!

    Is this really a version of Windows that won't allow you to run Winamp/Audiocatalyst etc? (XBox style - only runs digitally signed code)

    Or just more restrictions on the bundled Windows Media Player?

    Can't imagine it being 'only run signed code' - How can they stop you running Winamp/AudioCatalyst/Gnutella/CloneCD without stopping you running all other Win32 software?

    Maybe it's a driver-level attempt to stop CD ripping/digital audio recording. But how the fuck do they expect to stop you playing an downloaded MP3? Only allow signed apps to play audio? What about games etc?....

    If filename contains *.mp3, refuse to open/copy?
  • I like this quote:
    "Everyone's been waiting for the great convergence product," Duboise said.

    I think by "everyone" he means, software and hardware makers looking to generate some sales. I don't think he was talking about consumers. I can't think of a single person that would be interested in this. If this does sell, it would not be because of the advantages it offers, it will be because people were not aware of what they were actually buying and the rights they were throwing away with the purchase. You can do everything this has to offer now for less in price.
  • ... is that some people are actually going to buy these things.
  • IBM tcpa [ibm.com], aka palidrome strategy worked. Millions and millions of stupid consumers bought them and still do not even know it. Here are their laptops, [ibm.com] and desktops [ibm.com]that are crippled. Notice they use the word secure and trustworthy in describing these. Now how many of the ignorant average computer users have had virus's? Wouldn't tcpa/drm appeal to them with words like secure? Scary as hell.

    I remember reading a comment here about consumers will not buy this or will not put up with it. Well, it turns they already are without even knowing it.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • what side is buttered...

    "Jodie Cadiuex, marketing manager of Windows Media Center, defends Microsoft's decision to copy protect TV programs recorded to the PC's hard drive.

    "Microsoft is in a leadership position here where we've got an opportunity to help Hollywood feel comfortable with digital distribution and to help them develop (digital rights management) solutions so consumers can have content everywhere," she said. "We have two relationships we have to balance here: the consumer who wants the content and Hollywood so they feel comfortable with that process and don't clamp down and make that impossible."

    How many systems does hollywood buy and how much of your bottom line do they supply ?? Make hollywood happy and Fark the consumers and see how many boxes sell... Fark hollywood and make the consumer happy and hollywood WILL STILL produce movies for whatever system is out there, they have no choice..either that or close shop ?!?
    It is so obvious that they are depending on the government forcing the use of the DRM that they are willing to bet AGAINST their own customer base...Last time I saw somthing like this was IBM and MicroChannel Bus, they had such great success there I can see why M$ would be anxious to copy them...

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