David Brin on "Attack of the Clones" 538
dpt writes "Science fiction author and scientist David Brin caused quite a stir at the time with his article on The Phantom Menace, and now here are his thoughts on Episode II. Not being as harsh, it hasn't received much attention, but it's an interesting read anyway."
The Biggest Problem... (Score:4, Insightful)
The only new crime of the new trilogy is the over-reliance on CGI.
PS this isnt a troll I actually love Star Wars
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:2, Interesting)
And whats with the political intrigue so simple a child can follow it? Was that his intention? Perhaps he hopes it will sell more toys, if kids want to reenact the Senate debate.
And the racial stereotyping? Is it some sort of one-upsmanship with Star Trek? I don't know which is more offensive, the Shylock Ferangi or the "ah so" Trade Federation. Oh, oh! Meesa Jamaican retard!
I still enjoy the old films. I even liked the Timothy Zahn sequels. That's why I hate these movies, it's like George Lucas wanted to take a big chunky dump on everything he's done before.
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:2)
I hated all the SW movies, especially AotC. It was boring, the movie didn't hold my attention, and I was certainly unimpressed by the CGI after seeing other movies (LotR).
I am not trolling either. I really think that the movie (for all the money that gets sunk into it) should be a lot better than it is.
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not true. The original trilogy had character. Without a Han Solo'ish character, Jedi are quite boring.
Plot is nowhere near as important as the characters. Don't belive me? Ask people why they like Monsters Inc. 0 people will say "Because I think it's cool how Sully provided power to the Monster world without scaring children!"
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:2)
AUUUGH!!! You ruined it!!! I'm watching that movie tonight you know!
Thanks a lot.
Slashdot is like spoiler central for me - this is the third time this has happened to me here in the last six months.
(I'm not really mad *at you*, it's an old movie, but that doesn't mean I can't be annoyed, right?
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:2)
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:2)
Ya still can't be annoyed. I didn't give away anything. heh. As I attempted to point out in my post, that wasn't the point of the movie. (B'sides, I flubbed it a bit. So you really don't know, do ya?)
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
Aristotle is talking about stories and storytelling, is he not? The nature of stories is timeless, and while storytelling techniques may have changed since Aristotle's time, storytelling principles--being closely bound to the nature of stories--have not.
Since Aristotle is talking about things that don't change over time (the nature of stories and the principles of storytelling), if his advice is not valid today, it must never have been valid. He was just as wrong about stories "hundreds of years" ago as you say he is today.
Advice doesn't have to be contemporary to be valid. "Don't murder people" has been around far longer than you or I (or Aristotle), but just because we've forgotten who "supposedly" said it first, that doesn't mean it's suddenly now bad advice.
As for the question of whether Aristotle really said it or not is irrelevant to your argument: the wisdom of the statement can easily be tested without resorting to argument by authority. In fact, arguing that it must be good advice because "Aristotle said it" is just as foolish as arguing that it must be bad advice because "Aristotle is dead now". But I digress.
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
But what is the nature of stories, anyway? A simple answer might be that the nature of stories is to communicate. This seems like a reasonable answer, and if we look into the past we see that it applies just as much to pre-historic cave paintings as to the contemporary novel. Looking forward, it's reasonable to assume that this nature will not change in the future. Likewise, the nature of storytelling is to communicate the story. A storyteller of any age, using any technique, can be judged against this standard. The thing being communicated is different in different times and places, but the fundamental principle of communication that defines a "story" does not.
If we take "communication" as the unchanging nature of stories, then we can interpret Aristotle as follows: "Plot is more important than character, in order to successfully communicate the story." The question then becomes "is Aristotle correct?"--and this question can be applied just as appropriately to modern stories as ancient ones. By the same token, his assertion will be just as correct in the ancient context as in the modern one, so if he's wrong today, then he was wrong back then, and if he was right back then, he will be right today.
Unless, of course, he has also confused implementation with design: his audience might have better received plot-driven communication than character-driven, leading him to believe that the implementation of his time was inherent to the nature of stories themselves. If he is wrong at all, I suspect that he is wrong in this way--and that he always has been wrong.
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:4, Insightful)
The suckage of AotC goes way beyond "not living up to the nostalgia." If the originals had been this bad, they would have been consigned to the trash heap, and these new ones would have never been made.
And no, I have no intentions of wasting my five dollars and three hours on the third movie. I'll find a decent book to read and do something enjoyable with my time.
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:3, Insightful)
True, but recognize that "Star Wars" was superior to almost any other science fiction/space opera out at that time. The special effects alone deserved accolades, and some of them still do. The concept of the Force was something the non-book-reading public had yet to encounter in sci-fi.
Up until then, sci-fi in tv and movies was almost all about robots, aliens, spaceships, invasions, monsters and laboratory experiments gone awry. All the general public had to know about sci-fi was the original "Star Trek", "Battlestar Galactica", "Space 1999", "Buck Rogers". Nothing too cerebral there.
The Force was a good concept to add to an otherwise pretty, but ordinary movie like "Star Wars", and "The Empire Strikes Back" made it even better with some clever plot twists and delightful character development that was ten times deeper than what "Star Wars" had bothered with. "Return of the Jedi" tied it all up with by far the best F/X of the trilogy and lots of great action.
We expected too much from the new trilogy, is the problem -- the basic story is good, but the acting just isn't there and the digital special effects have overwhelmed the characters completely. Plus there's been a decade and a half with some really good science fiction since then. "The Matrix" alone, which opened mere weeks before "The Phantom Menace," showed everyone that sci-fi didn't have to be about spaceships and aliens in order to kick butt.
Re:The Biggest Problem... (Score:3, Interesting)
"Battlestar Galactica" came out in 1978 and "Buck Rogers" in 1977--both were capitalizing on Star Wars to some degree. ("Rogers" was probably in the planning stages before Star Wars' release but they clearly knew of the movie, and "Galactica" never made much effort to hide its influences. And, while I'm honestly not much of a "Star Trek" fan, when the original series was good it was good on a level that George Lucas never came close to. The Empire Strikes Back made an effort, but mostly thanks to screenwriter Leigh Brackett (who's almost certainly responsible for the clever plot twists and delightful character development).
I really didn't expect too much from the new trilogy because I lost a lot of respect for Lucas the more I watched his career and the more I learned about the development of Star Wars itself. (The Phantom Menace is much closer to his original draft for Star Wars, before people convinced him that he needed to have a mythic story and turned him on to Joseph Campbell.) I had, however, expected that Lucas might have been wise enough now to recognize his limitations and to bring other screenwriters on from the start. Instead. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Hes right but.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, shouldnt a critique of the movie be out, say, within a month or two of the movie being released??
Re:Hes right but.. (Score:2)
Re:Hes right but.. (Score:2)
I mean, shouldnt a critique of the movie be out, say, within a month or two of the movie being released??
You're right - the millions of words that have been written on films (and don't forget TV!) should be thrown out immediately. Someone better tell my former film history professors to ditch their current projects, too. Sure they'll be crushed, but once I explain that those movies aren't shiny & new, I'm sure they'll move on to new careers.
While we're at it, let's ignore all cultural products that are more than a few weeks old - reflection (and especially re-consideration) is always bad, bad bad! And the concept that the passage of time can enable objectivity and new perspectives - that's all hogwash!
(Boy, this would have made my art history courses at school so much easier!)
Re:Hes right but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Literary criticism can actually get more interesting as time goes on. What if anything does "Blade Runner" have to say now that we have cloning? Does "Seven Samurai" or "Magnificent Seven" inform the debate on terrorism today? How does a character like Charles Foster Kane illustrate what we now see in people like Rupert Murdoch or, for that matter, Bill Clinton?
Every generation gets to reintrepret stories, whether those stories are Star Wars movies, Shakespeare's plays, or the epics of the Greeks & Romans. The first generation gets a first crack at such review, but really it takes time for the first wave of interesting stuff to fall out, and the revisionism that later generations can bring can be even more interesting, even if it makes purists wince. Compared to that slower, more thoughtful criticism, the puff pieces you get to see right when the movie/book/etc comes out are for the most part pretty boring & useless.
At least Lucas appreciates irony... (Score:5, Funny)
From Time magazine, as quoted in the Brin piece:
Cheers
-b
Meaning what...? (Score:2)
He's, basically, an artist (maybe not a good one, but an artist nonetheless). He likes to make movies and he likes to control every aspect of his movies (he was originally into editing, but switched to directing because he wanted more control).
He's made a whole lot of money, but what does he do with it? Does he have huge mansions or fleets of yachts? No. His lifestyle is quite simple for how much money he has. Lucas uses his money to build the coolest special effects shop, sound studio, and movie sound system companies. He uses it to further his movie work. In the A&E Biography about Lucas, a friend recalled how Lucas was still living like a starving idependent film maker, even after Star Wars. His friends had to remind him that he could afford better.
His movies may not be great, but I don't think for one minute that he's making them because he's greedy.
Re:Meaning what...? (Score:5, Insightful)
So you think it's just coincidence, or lack of foresight or something, that LucasFilm is notorious for releasing not one, not two, not three, but *four or more* versions of each film to the home video market? The initial ones being downright crippled, then gradually getting better?
How about the fact that they had to scale back the number of merchandising tie-ins for AotC because there was so much press about how TPM was basically a 2 hour vehicle for cross-promotions of toys, ties, and KFC [homestead.com]
His lifestyle, which you point out, actually argues my point: when people are greedy, they often *don't* have mansions, yachts, harems, etc, because it isn't about enjoying wealth, but rather accumulating it.
George Lucas definitely had some potential, but speaking in present tense, he's about as much of an "artist" as Brittney Spears -- he may be in complete technical control of movies, but he is absolutely a slave to public opinion when it comes to what to make, because he's greedy and the primary interest is in maximizing revenue, not producing quality movies. Sometimes it works in our favor (everyone hates Jar-Jar, we get less Jar-Jar), sometimes it works against us (must include a cheesy romance to capture the female demographic). That's par for the course in Hollywood, I know, but my point is that he's no exception... and that, with customer-abusive attitudes in video release and merchandising, he is actually one of the worst.
Cheers
-b
Re:Meaning what...? (Score:2)
Star Wars always had merchandising tie-ins. As kids, people loved the Star Wars toy at KFC. Then they got older and saw it was just cheap merchandising. Back in the early 80s their parents knew all that stuff was merchandising. Try to find a "Star Wars fan" that's over 40 years old. The movies are, and always were, mindless entertainment with a lot of stuff for the kids. Today's 20-30 year olds are just upset the movie is still mindless entertainment for kids instead of something aimed at them.
I may believe your argument about Lucas being greedy more if he was simply accumlating wealth. He's not. He rolls it back into the movies (via THX, ILM, etc). I think he's a guy who loves to make movies. He's not very good at directing or storytelling, but he's got the resources to keep at it.
...
Re:Meaning what...? (Score:2)
In Lucas' case? Sure. Why not? It's not like he's abusing a monopoly position to prevent you from seeing other movies. Far from it. The work on Lucas' movies has spawned ILM and THX, which has made a whole lot of other movies better.
You don't really think that Bill does, or ever did, like making software, do you? :-)
...
Evil (Score:5, Interesting)
A girlfriend of mine had a cat that would sit and watch you all day long, not moving, not reacting to anything. If you got close enough, it would try to claw your eyes out. If you escaped and could still use your eyes, you would see the cat sitting there looking at you calm and cool. That cat was evil.
Giving into anger is more about making a person evil than it is about displaying emotion. Any master is calm, cool and collected. Luke was a student, not a master. They wanted him to be an evil student, and the quick path to that is anger.
Overall, I don't think that article was any more accurate or insightful than the movie it chose to criticize. It, too, was somewhat obvious and full of factual errors. (Lucas did not direct all five movies, for example.) I'm glad he found it entertaining, though.
Twinge of Jealousy? (Score:3, Interesting)
To me, something about Brin's vehemence moves him from "critique for criticism's sake" into "personal beef with Lucas"-land. Or more likely he envies Lucas' success compared to what he considers more legitimate and well-written sci-fi (his own work?).
Re:Twinge of Jealousy? (Score:2)
Cheers
-b
Re:Twinge of Jealousy? (Score:2)
Re:Twinge of Jealousy? (Score:2)
Re:Twinge[...] Yeah, but read his 3-paragraphs (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Twinge[...] Yeah, but read his 3-paragraphs (Score:2)
Did you read the addendum? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't care if he's jealous. His addendum RAWKS!
God, it's so good, I wish I'd thought of it!
note to self: read more of his books!
Re:Twinge of Jealousy? (Score:3, Interesting)
Also there's a Hard Science fiction discussion group - one of the oldest & best on the internet - that you could check out at http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
And of course I would prefer the world pay me as much as Lucas & give me his resources. Like any american egotist I think I'd do a better job. So? I recognize the irony and acknowledge it with a smile.
The point you miss, with your leap to diss my character, is that I have laid out for you all the elements that could make GL's universe actually make sense. It's right there and I'm not the only one who could weave the elements together. Elements that would make Anekin's struggle and fall less of a silly farce and more of a truly intense and surprising(!) twist.
I'll bet some of you can figure it out.
No, it ain't jealousy. It's the deep resentment of a movie goer and sci fi fan with high standards. EMPIRE STRIKES BACK promised us a fantastically wonderful story, enjoyable by the adult in all of us, as well as the kid.
We haven't been given that. I have as much a right as anybody to complain.
With cordial regards,
David Brin
www.davidbrin.com
PS come on by and talk about some real science fiction
What AotC Needed... (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course this is just one CS majors ramblings, but I would have liked to see that.
Re:What AotC Needed... (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact, I was really hoping/expecting that he'd be killed at the end, and his dying words would be, "You've just destroyed the only force in the galaxy that could have stopped the Sith...."
I love the idea of Palpatine manipulating his enemies into destroying eachother so that he could seize control. Kind of nihilistic, I know, but it lays a far richer foundation for Episode 3.
The Case for (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The Case for (Score:2)
Re:The Case for (Score:2)
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with.
Benign? Pinochet? Head... hurts... too... much...
I would guess that there a more than a few people, slashdotters among them, that would argue that Mr. Pinochet's time in power in Chile was more torture, murder, corruption, and deception than benign.
Why that article is crap (Score:3)
I'm not going to deal with his ignorance of the Expanded Universe, I don't like his reasons but I'll let it be. I'll refute him with the movies.
The notion that the Emperor was a benign dictator like Pinochet--I don't know where to start. I'm sure Chile would be most impressed to learn that Pinochet was "benign." Thousands killed for political reasons is not "benign."
Now, he has a point that Alderaan was probably armed. Most planets are. That's not illegal. Destruction of those weapons would have been a legitimate military exercise. Now, I ask you this: is it legitimate to slaughter civilians to destroy those targets? Especially if you're doing it to blackmail a resistance leader? Who happens to be a member of your own governing body? That would be akin to Bush nuking New York because Hillary Clinton would blow him. I mean, really. Who's the author trying to kid?
He speaks of the system of regional governors, owing their fealty to the Emperor, and what a nice system was and how the Emperor's death would shatter it all. First of all, it's not much of a system if it takes one man (in a galaxy of quadrillions or more) to hold it all together. That they would squabble speaks poorly of Palpatine's judgement.
Yes it's true that the Empire is a meritocracy. Do what we say or we kill you. Do it right while doing what we say or we kill you. Never does he question the ethics of such a policy.
How are Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru traitors? They bought two droids secondhand from junk dealers. The droids weren't stolen, so all you can get them on is harboring fugitives. Except, those droids were abandoning ship. Hell, C-3PO didn't even know what R2-D2 had. If you want to get technical, R2-D2 should be gotten for possessing stolen goods, 3P0 for aiding a felon...There were no grounds for executing them, especially since without the droids there was no proof. I didn't see the Jawas give Owen a receipt.
As for his bashing of the Jedi, I will suggest to him "hubris," and ask him if the Jedi ever killed innocent people at random. Moreover, the Jedi are elevated by biology, and the cultivation of resultant abilites. A meritocracy, of sorts. Isn't that what he thought was so great about the Empire?
As for the Republic putting down the rebellion...they were simply a regime fighting a violent group committed to their overthrow...like the Empire.
His article is amusing, but I see people taking it seriously, thus I must point out these inconsistencies and logical fallacies. The Empire benign? Please...
~Chazzf
Re:The Case for (Score:2)
I've actually just finished re-reading Zhan's series and I noticed a *lot* of similarities to the action scenes in Zhan's books and those in Attack of the Clones. Still, reading those books makes me all nostalgic for the span of time preceding The Phantom Menace. What Zhan and other SW writers came up with for the SW future is far, far better than Lucas' mangling of the SW past.
Re:The Case for (Score:2)
"I'll take the style of the Old Republic any day."
But where's the substance?
"You seem to be forgetting that it is your precious Empire that slaughtered millions in the destruction of Alderaan."
How many people were onboard the first Death Star, the second? C'mon man, you know the second had conscripted construction crews working full time even as the rebels attacked. Remember that they were having trouble getting the regular construction crews to work hard enough, and that they were going to redouble their efforts? How, exactly, do you think he was figuring that he would do that? Call a conference and just tell the crews to step on it?
Lucas' peers (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes! Lucas needed to whittle the Jedi down in a tragic and colorful way. But couldn't he have shown them suffering calamity despite behaving cleverly and well? Doesn't he have peers to workshop this stuff against?
Good question but I suspect that Lucas honestly believes that he has no peers. It's unfortunate because the scripts that came out of his colaboration with Kasdan were pretty good, IMHO. Yes, I know Lucas co-wrote AOTC with someone from Indiana Jones Chronicles but I argue that this guy was just a yes-man for Lucas. Lucas really needs to team up with a good, known writer to come up with an interesting story for Episode 3. Maybe he'll come to his senses and realize that he needs some help in the script department for his final Star Wars film. We can only hope.
GMD
Re:Lucas' peers (Score:2)
I'm not bent on having all things PC, but the moment I saw TPM all I could think was: "how could something this blatantly racist (both the jar-jar rasta's and the asian traders) get past anyone?!"
I think all the secrecy surrounding Star Wars products is their down fall. No one whose purse strings aren't attached to the man can say "Yo, this BITES!"
Beauty is only skin deep... (Score:5, Interesting)
The problems and holes in TPM could have been fixed with some quick editing and a couple of reshot scenes. It wouldn't have approached the first Star Wars, but then again very little does.
AotC was so utterly, unredeemably bad that it is unfixable. Sheesh - once glance between Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher in ESB carried more romantic tension than 30 minutes of moping between what's his name and Natalie. "Let's go to the mall Anni". As my 8 y.o. said "Yuck". How perceptive is the mind of a child.
sPh
Re:Beauty is only skin deep... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Beauty is only skin deep... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think part of the real irony of people bashing the romance between Anakin and Padme is that they are holding these characters up to a higher level than what the characters should be at in real life. Anakin is late teens, Padme is early/mid 20's. They play the romance exactly as it would be in real life. You have Anakin who has never loved before all of a sudden getting this rush of feelings (remember your first HS crush? compare...). Add Padme, a 20-something who doesn't take this kid seriously and attempts to brush off his advances. Mind you that she has never loved before either since her life has been spent in the political spotlight. Two first loves in the later part of their life? Come on, you can't tell me that half the 20-something computer geek virgins wouldn't have a romance dialogue similar or WORSE than what AOTC had.
--trb
Cheech and Chong (Score:5, Funny)
make his escape with the twins.
Anyone know if Cheech and Chong are free?
Darth & Obi Wan ... a team? (Score:5, Interesting)
It would definately make Lucas look like a genius, but like the good doctor, I don't believe that Lucas would be smart enough (or would let his ego deflate enough) to use this terrific plot that has been presented infront of him.
Consider the possibilities: Yoda and the Emperor working together the whole time
This would also answer the question of how the Emperor became so powerful with the force
Think about it
That story line definately has possibilities!
Re:Darth & Obi Wan ... a team? (Score:3, Interesting)
One of Brin's Salon articles from 1999 contains this quote: "How come we never see Yoda take on an enemy with a light saber? Come on master, fire it up and battle a Sith Lord! That's a battle I'd pay to see!" Maybe Lucas does pay attention.
He certainly dropped that stupid midichlorian crap quickly enough.
Re:The reason it will never happen (Score:3, Interesting)
I always felt that the hate that fuels the most powerful of the Dark Side is self-loathing. Vader hating himself for what he has become, and what he must do to maintain order. Palpatine could be driven by a hated of all that opposed his dream of a unified government, of all of those bickering fools. And probably a good deal of self-loathing for realising what price he paid for power.
Yoda's lesson at the end of Episode 3 could be that in denying all emotion, the Jedi imbalanced their souls. That with their concentration on the science of the Force, they forgot that it was a mystic power above science and "midichlorians". The Balance that Anakin/Vader brings is the balance between rational logic and passion. A spiritual illumination (rathar than a metaphysical balancing) that almost comes too late.
Getting angry can turn you evil (Score:2, Insightful)
The one thing that I couldn't agree with was when he said getting angry can turn you evil is a down right lie. He then brings up an obligatory Hitler reference. A better example would be if, say a military group attacked you, and you decided to completely annihliate everyone who is from their country. You fighting the group is not evil, but you going overboard and killing everyone is! Of course you would have had no reason to fight them at all, but you were mad at what they did to you.
Hope that makes sense!
Re:Getting angry can turn you evil (Score:2, Insightful)
the fix-all? (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, I think I might be on to what he's talking about. How cool would it be if Anakin's drop into the Dark Side was manipulated and guided by Yoda (and maybe some other elite Jedi) with the expectation that he'd eventually bring balance to the force in VI: ROTJ? Yoda ( or perhaps a council even higher than the ovenmit?) allows certain attrocities to go unchecked because he has a higher prophecy to fulfill. When I think about the possibilities, this could really put a brilliant and completely new spin upon the Star Wars universe. If done correctly, it really could be the next Empire Strikes Back in terms of having a plot that is more than predictable pubescent garbage (don't get me wrong, I love Star Wars).
But at any rate, those are my thoughts, and I'll admit that I don't read the forums and gossip websites at all. Does anyone else have any ideas as to what this "something special" which David Brin is referring to might be?
Re:the fix-all? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:the fix-all? (Score:3, Informative)
Anyone who read the *entire* article might.
In fact, a scenario is possible, if Vader and Obi-Wan conspire together against BOTH Emperor and Yoda. Go on, follow all the movies with this possibility in mind.
Why else would Obi-Wan 'hide' Vader's son in Vader's home town? Their final 'deathfight' distracts the guards to let Luke/Han/Leia get away. How else do you explain that Vader grabs/interrogates Leia, yet never detects her force? Watch carefully... Vader's 'chase' of Luke in the first film clears all the other Imperial fighters off his son's back and halts the antiaircraft guns, giving the kid a clear shot! And guess who's the only Imperial survivor?
It goes on and on! (Including the coincidence of whose droids carry the message.)
I can't possibly agree in a more disagreeable way (Score:2)
While I agreed with his overall response I completely disagree with most of his points. I didn't like the first half, except maybe the first scene where Obi-Wan jumps out the window. It was the second half that was enjoyable. While the plot held itself together better in the first half of this the dialog was painful.
I've found that I really dislike this guy, and the way he presents thing. But I often agree with his opinions. At least on movies.
Dissent is Good (Score:4, Insightful)
If more people step up and speak the truth about how much of a "let down" both of the "new" Star Wars films have been, maybe George will spend a little more time writing the third and less time worrying about the CGI.
Terrorists (Score:2, Insightful)
Bitter much? (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, Brin is fond of pointing out how unhealthy it is to repress your emotions -- something he claims the Jedi faith is based on. The problem is that the Jedi have no problems with the existence of negative emotions -- merely with acting on them. Controlling yourself to the point where you don't even have any negative emotions is nigh-impossible; but recognizing when you are having those emotions, and waiting until you are calm before you act, is where the wisdom lies.
Brin also makes the odd assumption that just because Lucas shows a character doing something in a movie, means that Lucas thinks that real people should act that way in real life. His quote from Orwell is almost apropos, except that a movie is different enough from a gas chamber that the comparison is silly. I'm not saying Brin has to like Lucas's beliefs or philosophy, but to claim that there's some crime being perpetrated against humanity because of the entirely fictional things that happen in a movie, is just dumb. Criticizing a movie for bad writing, bad direction, and bad acting is certainly fine, but why does Brin see such a threat against real adult morality from these films?
Brin Should Talk (Score:2)
Why oh why can't Hollywood make decent Sci-Fi movies? Most of the sci-fi movies that get made are absolute torture to watch. I suspect it has to do with the fact that most decent movies today are made with relative shoestring budgets. Crap lie Star Wars and Star Trek and even Minority Report.
Another may be that the Directors involved in the production are too powerful and have too much control over everything. Does anyone believe Lucas was told the Romance scene was completely horrid? I can't beleive the actors managed to spout that tripe without barfing or laughing in Lucas' face.
Brin is right (Score:3, Insightful)
What Lucas is good at is production-value overload. In Episode I, there's a new major set every 90 seconds. That's really what keeps people from being bothered by the bad dialogue and inept action.
Yes, it makes money, but so does Pokemon.
Lucas models Vader after himself (read it) (Score:2)
In a recent Time Magazine article, George Lucas explains the depressingly foreordained saga of Anakin Skywalker's slide into evil-demigodhood by saying: "He turns into Vader because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his mother; he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go of things. It makes you greedy. And when you're greedy, you are on the path to the dark side, because you fear you're going to lose things, that you're not going to have the power you need."
So in essence, Lucas has modelled the Vader character after himself. The series has so much potential, everyone can see that. But Lucas is content to drag it down to the lowest level, simply because he is greedy.
I also really like the author's suggestion for Episode Three, which is a major plot twist. I have thought about it, and I think it could work very well. I'd have to review the previous movies to see if it works all the way through the trilogy, but I think it would. He proposes that Obi Wan and Darth Vader are actually teaming up against Yoda and the Emperor.
I think it would be a cool twist to reveal that the Empire is really the good guys, and the Rebels are the bad guys. There was a whole article on this somewhere, and I thought it was a pretty unique and intriguing analysis of the saga.
Most pressing question in the article (Score:2)
Enough of the Campbell Crap Already! (Score:2)
This is not to say that Star Wars has been a goldmine of originality, of course.
TWW
Good Point: Y O D A (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure there is! (Score:3, Funny)
Just a few:
- Angle the deflector shields.
These beg the question, "Where do they come up with this stuff?"Top Ten Sexually Tilted Lines in "Star Wars" (Score:3, Funny)
"She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid."
"Curse my metal body, I wasn't fast enough!"
"Look at the size of that thing!"
"Sorry about the mess..."
"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought."
"Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper?"
"You've got something jammed in here real good."
"Put that thing away before you get us all killed!"
"Luke, at that speed do you think you'll be able to pull out in time?"
"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care *what* you smell!"
Top Ten Sexually Tilted Lines in "The Empire Strikes Back"
"And I thought they smelled bad...on the outside!"
"Possible he came in through the south entrance."
"I must've hit it pretty close to the mark to get her all riled up like that, huh kid?"
"Hurry up, golden-rod..."
"That's okay, I'd like to keep it on manual control for a while."
"But now we must eat. Come, good food, come..."
"Control, control! You must learn control!"
"There's an awful lot of moisture in here."
"Size matters not. Judge me by my size, do you?"
"I thought that hairy beast would be the end of me!"
Top Ten Sexually Tilted Lines in "Return of the Jedi"
"Rise, my friend."
"Open the back door!"
"Hey, point that thing somewhere else!"
"It's just a dead animal..."
"Not bad for a little fur ball."
"How can they be jamming us if they don't know we're coming?"
"Come here, I won't hurt you. You want something to eat?"
"Keep on that one, I'll take these two"
"I want you to take her. I mean it, take her!"
"I don't think the Empire had wookies in mind when they designed her, Chewie."
Re:Blah (Score:2)
Considering that Mr. Brin has written some of the best science fiction out there (I particulary enjoyed Earth), I'd say he *can* do, and does very well.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Re:Blah (Score:2)
Re:Blah (Score:2)
You know what? David Brin can do; he's pretty clearly in the top 100 science fiction writers of this century. Maybe if you could write like him, you would instead of bitching about his writing.
Re:Blah (Score:2)
Re:Blah (Score:5, Funny)
C3PO: Hi, I'm a droid.
Owen: Hey, didn't I meet you before?
C3PO: No, I don't think so.
Owen: Yeah, you're C3PO. Build by Anakin Skywalker, right? You're the one who told everybody how itchy you were so you could get Padme to oil you up.
C3PO: I have no idea what you're talking about.
Owen: My dad married his mom! We worked together for about 10 years or so. Remember the whole sandpeople incident, where they came and kidnapped her for no reason? Or how we've been raising her grandson - your creator's son - for 18 years now? By the way - why didn't he ever come back and look in the local phone directory under "Skywalker" - he might have found out his son was right here.
C3PO: (Waves his hand before Owen.) We are not the droids you remember.
Owen: (Dazed.) You are not the droids I remember.
C3PO: (Waves hand again.) You want to purchase us. And give me an oil bath.
Owen: Bath.
Call me strange, but I think there was just a little plot hole there. Maybe a small one.
Re:Blah (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Blah (Score:5, Funny)
"They all look alike to me" (Score:2)
Re:Blah (Score:2, Informative)
Also, keep in mind that Threepio's coverings have been completely replaced by the time he and Owen meet again. He is a completely different color.
Why should Owen necessarily recognize him?
Humans remember appliances... Riiight. (Score:2, Informative)
I think droids are a commodity in the SW universe, much like toasters are today. Mass produced, identical, and when you come down to it: mere tools.
Why would Owen remember it?
Re:Blah (Score:2)
Re:Blah (Score:2)
Re:Blah (Score:3, Interesting)
2. The droids are all named by their model number. In a universe, it's clear that there are likely millions of each model droid. There'd be no reason to think that a C3PO is the C3PO he dealt with about 20 years prior.
3. Droid memory erasures, as mentioned by many people.
4. If you watch the original film, Owen goes out of his way not to select C3PO or R2D2. It's Luke who's so damn adamant about getting C3PO, and they only get R2 because the other unit burnt out before it moved 50 feet... My thought is that he had some sort of subliminal memory of droids like these ones, and thus didn't like them. If memory serves, he actually bitches about them to Luke in Episode IV. He's also very pushy about Luke taking them up to Anchorhead to have their memories erased. Interesting.
Though I do like your comment about Padme and the oil bath.
Re:Blah (Score:4, Insightful)
So what? Brin is most definitely not in the "can't do" category. He's a fantastic author who's won a stack of awards for his Science Fiction writing. I'll admit that the one movie [imdb.com] made from one of his books was awful, but the blame for that lies clearly on Kevin Costner's shoulders, not Brin's.
Re:By David Brin, Ph.D. (Score:3, Funny)
-A. Coward Ph.D
Re:By David Brin, Ph.D. (Score:3, Funny)
"I didn't go through four years of evil medical school to be called Mr. Evil."
Re:By David Brin, Ph.D. (Score:2)
The man worked hard to get his doctorate, and you bitch about him showing his accomplishments on his sleeve? Bugger off, mate.
That's "Dr. Mate" to you, A.C.!
GMD, Ph.D.
Re:I didn't spend seven years at Evil Medical Scho (Score:2)
Kelso Lundeen, M.A.,M.F.A.,Ph.D.
There's just something off-putting (and tacky) about tacking your credentials on stuff like this. I think it's an attempt by Brin to make sure folks know 'whereof he speaks', but it's annoying.
Strut your shit in your work, not in the byline for chrissake.
Re:I didn't spend seven years at Evil Medical Scho (Score:2)
Re:There's no sound in space. (Score:2)
Mute your TV during the space combat scenes in Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. and see how it is. Just stop whining about it and let the rest of us enjoy the cool sound effects.
Re:There's no sound in space. (Score:2)
No, he simply had that gawd-awful 10-minute long starfield journey THROUGH the monolith.
In space, no one can hear you snore... (Score:2, Insightful)
Hey, Star Wars is a space soap opera (sorta like Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers). 2001 is hard-core science fiction. Two distinct genres.
Please don't place a burden on something that doesn't deserve it.
But Lucas doesn't even understand Yoda... (Score:2)
And please explain, why just five minute after Obi-Wan convinces Annikin that he must abandon Padme to "do his duty", does Yoda abandon his duty to the Republic in order to save two useless Jedi?
sPh
Re:Good vs Evil (Score:3, Insightful)
Reading this guy's article, I was amazed at how seriously he took SWII. Taking entire paragraphs to point out plot inconsistencies, complaining about the simplistic notion of Jedi thoughts on anger, Anakin's mother, etc., etc. makes me wonder if he doesn't realize that for George Lucas, this whole Star Wars thing is pure escapism - a giddy, whimsical throwback to B-grade kiddie serial flicks from another time. Of course there's no Spielbergian display of 'inner conflict of the human hero' - that's how the genre works. The Lone Ranger would have been out of place in Saving Private Ryan but he'd be in familiar company in a Star Wars flick. Even special moments of angst (Luke looking at setting twin suns, Han contemplating a return to attack the original Death Star) are stock B-movie cheesy moments. It's What Makes Star Wars Fun.
Don't get me wrong - the guy's allowed to take Star Wars seriously. But this whole 'disgruntled fan-boy' criticism just seems like a waste of time, kind of like posting about it on Slashdot.
Hey, wait a minute...
Lucas wants it both ways (Score:4, Insightful)
So Brin is critiqeing from the view that Lucas does want to be taken seriously.
I happen to agree that Lucas just wants to make a bunch of money and play with some cool new digital toys & that he is using Campbellian patterns in his stories because they are recepies for popularity, not because he actually wants or expects his stories to teach or shape the culture.
But a central theme to Campbell's work was that popular myths _do_ shape and teach...
Re:What happens when you have a kid (Score:2, Interesting)
We wasted a 'movie night' on TPM so we passed on AotC. If the reviews (professional and peer) were outstanding we would have seen it, but they were all 'it's better, but not great.'
When I heard that it was going to be out on IMAX, I considered going to it but as my wife said "Why, so we can see a so-so movie on a bigger screen?"
One thing that bothered me (Score:2)
Re:Star What? (Score:5, Insightful)
We'd been conditioned to see space as an antiseptic place, full of glaring bright light, shiny technology, and alien experiences. The original thing about the first SW movie was the way it visually reimagined space to be grungy, bange-up, and lived-in, full of low life characters who were perfectly comprehensible even if they spoke some weird electronic lanuge and looked like a pile of congealed excrement. Star Wars opened up outer space to the great unwashed.
Post-Sundiver suggestions... (Score:3, Informative)
...obviously start with Startide Rising, a much better book set in the same universe (The Uplift Saga, which has six volumes). The Uplift War is just as good, even though I suspect it was conceived as a giant pun. It may also appeal to your Libertarian instincts.
Then you're faced with a choice. If you just can't get enough Uplift, the last three books of the saga are really one story or trilogy and introduce many new and interesting ideas. But the climax is not as satisfying as Startide or Uplift War.
If you liked the eco-libertarian side of The Uplift War and (especially) Startide Rising, Earth develops these ideas much more fully, but it may not be entirely non-unsettling to a true believer in the Libertarian Cause.
If you liked the puns in The Uplift War, Kiln People delivers puns at a rate which has to be seen to be believed. This book also does a lot better job of transferring the mystery genre to sci-fi than Sundiver. And he even explains why his gumshoe maintains a running dialog in his head.
If you like Asimov's Foundation, then Foundation's Triumph will be of interest. Otherwise ignore it.
Perhaps his most interesting book was written with Gregory Benford -- Heart of the Comet, biological sci-fi set in deep space.
Re:And I just finished reading Sundiver (Score:2)
Re:David Brin (Score:2)
Re:Aesthetics and futility aside... (Score:2)
Between all the crossovers, cameos, in jokes, and plot ploys in hollywood entertainment these days, its increasingly difficult for me to enjoy my guilty pleasures. When I know whoever owned the rights to the characters/franchise/brands involved is making a crudload of money off of pandering to my guilty desires instead of challenging them or surprising them with novel ideas, I just want to turn the TV off. As a fan of various shows, characters, etc, sometimes I feel downright exploited
Well, back to Yoda. Really, I much prefered the mystery. We all knew Yoda could kick some Imperial ass, so did we *really* have to see it? I much preferred the mystery, but now I am ruined.
Re:A minor correction (Score:2)
Re:It is just a movie... (Score:2)
Um. Well there are two schools of thought when it comes to a form of art:
1. Those who enjoy it for its own sake.
2. Those who enjoy it for intellectual reasons.
Take anything: music, film, fine art. Whatever and you will find these two camps (the second being smaller than the first).
Now your post title is "It's just a movie" so I assume you are in the first camp. Basically the rule of thumb is if you liked the movie or not. Binary. Runs. or Hangs. And that's fine.
The second group are those who take an active interest in looking deeper into a form of art. The political reasons. The creator's own personal relations to it. Larger social meaning and how it fits into the larger genre. Here analyisis brings deeper understanding of the film and thus more pleasure than just sitting back and watching it.
A good parallel is David Sirlin's editiorials on Street Fighter II [sirlin.net]. His gist? Either you enjoy video games just to play them, or you enjoy them by winning (and winning takes analysis of the deeper mechanics of the game).
In all things either it is just a meaningless pastime or a deep and profound experience. Passive enjoyment or active involvement. Understand that there are people who enjoy the same things you do but for different reasons.
Re:Phantom Menace (Score:3, Interesting)
Same thing that Hitler did, several of the Roman emperors, and so on.
In the first movie, he gets the largely ceremonial post of Supreme Chancellor; he officates the Senate, which basically means he gets to 'recognize' who is speaking. Also, he likely gets to form 'subcommittees' for things that the Senate has decided to 'investigate' such as the problems on Naboo. Otherwise, probably lots of kissing babies and opening bridges.
Also, and far more insidiously, he plants the idea that the Senate is too big and bloated to actually do anything in a timely fashion.
In II, he engineers a war crisis. Then, he gets himself granted 'emergency powers.' The analog here is Republican Rome; an Emperor would appoint a Dictator (Speaker) who would wield absolute power during times of war, then hand control back to the civilian gov't when the crisis was past.
Now that he has those powers, he can keep them until HE decides that the 'crisis' has passed. But it won't have. He'll next put into place the command struture of the Empire; Moffs rule systems, Grand Moffs rule sectors, and report back to him. The Senate, at this point, is rubber stamping things. Then, as we hear at the start of IV, he dissolves them, and the Republic becomes the Empire.
Also, expect him to do something to turn the Galaxy at large against the Jedi; he'll probably point out how they were completely incapable of stopping the Kamino insurrection, for example. Then, he'll have them hunted down and killed behind the scenes.