Hotel Being Sued for Using the Dewey Decimal System 419
cbull writes "Did you know the Dewey Decimal System isn't in the public domain? The rights are owned by the Online Computer Library Center. They are suing the Library Hotel in New York for trademark infringement. In addition, according to the article, libraries pay at least $500/year to use the system."
well damn! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:well damn! (Score:3, Funny)
This could be good (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This could be good (Score:5, Interesting)
I know that's the case here in Taiwan. I was shocked to find major research universities using DDC and then when I began working with a publisher I learned that it had a lot to do with copyright and the LOC. In fact, I taught classes on using the LOC at one point for students preparing to go overseas.
But personally I find the DDC obnoxious and far more of an obstacle to research than a helpful classification system.
Re:This could be good (Score:5, Insightful)
This is an acceptable solution when you're searching on paper or your search sapce isn't that large, but today we have computers and far more data.
For example, "Algorithms in C" is a classic text a lot of people here probably own.
But does it belong under "math", "computer science", or "computer languages -> C"? (Dewey seperates Computing out into a seperate category, rather than placing it under math).
The answer, of course, is all three.
The ideal system would be a free-text search of all the books in the catalogue. But until we can do that, keywords and searchable abstracts are more useful than categories. Just put the damn books on the shelf in order of author.
Re:This could be good (Score:4, Interesting)
Sometimes, libraries do place faux books on the shelf with instructions to the browser to "also consult this CDROM" but stacks loaded with these faux books would not be particularly easy to browse.
My ideal library would let browsers borrow hand held electronic catalogues-- so that flashes of insight wouldn't need to be followed by a long trek back to the catalogs in the lobby.
Re:This could be good (Score:5, Interesting)
You make a very good point that a hierarchical system isn't suitable for cataloging. I have the same problem with my more than 6000 (all legally acquired) MP3s: Artists span Genres, Albums contain works by more than one Composer, Artists may appear in more than one Group/Band/Orchestra, etc.
But free-text search isn't a great solution; we've all seen that with Google: I can find web pages about Apple MacIntosh and I can find pages about growing Apple MacIntoshes, but it's hard to separate the pages about computers from those about cookery.
In these cases, an abstract is more useful than a full-text search.
Re:This could be good (Score:2)
Re:This could be good (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, from a user's point of view. But just think about the implementation that makes those easy searches possible.
Pretty impressive eh? Not exactly rocket science, but pretty darned close.
wbs.
Re:This could be good (Score:4, Interesting)
You can still keep the old systems.
And you can extend it.
Re:This could be good (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This could be good (Score:3, Informative)
Well, actually, I don't think it should be a problem in this case - the fruit is spelled McIntosh (no "a," both "M" and "I" capitalized). Of course you might still get pages about the computer intermingled with ones about raincoats (and none of this will be of much use to someone with the kind of free-and-easy, nonconformist approac
Re:This could be good (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you tried adding the words "computer" or "fruit" to your query? ;-)
But that's precisely my point: only the most pedantic writer is going to qualify which sort of apple he's talking about, because he'll expect his reader to pick it up from context.
Consider: the author won't write:
Re:This could be good (Score:5, Insightful)
No, no, no, no.
What is needed is that PLUS exactly what you hinted at: faceted classification.
Books can be arranged on the shelves by author or FILO or whatever, but they should be, in the age of computers, indexed by multiple heirarchical facets.
Keywords and free-text searches are far too unreliable, even in the age of Google. If you're doing serious research, you can't rely on the first Google hit, you need to try several different methods. In fact, Google's methodology, ranking by weighted hyperlink popularity, wouldn't apply to books.
What you need are a combination of faceted classification (like the subject entries in the cataloging software most libraries use) and free-text as well as abstract searching. Quite frankly, humans and the software they write are too stupid to classify everything well enough to use one system or another exclusively.
Re:This could be good (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, it could. But instead of hyperlinks, it would use references/bibliographies. So if my book takes a quote from your book, that would have the same effect as a hyperlink on a website.
Then, the most-quoted books would get the highest search results. If everybody is talking about your book, it could just be the one you're looking for
Re:This could be good (Score:3, Funny)
The answer, of course, is all three.''
ln
What? Your library does not support links? Don't tell me they use Windows... How do you mean ``The Real World doesn't support hard links''? What kind of operating system is that???
Re:This could be good (Score:4, Informative)
I worked as a reference assistant at a large urban public library for 5+ years, and in my experience, less than half of the people who came in were doing research via the catalog. Most of them were simply browsing by subject. 99% of the time, it was faster and easier to simply point them to the spot on the shelves where a particular subject number was.
I mean, we were five floors covering an entire city block... would you really want to have to walk from one extreme of the building to grab Linux Apache Web Server Administration by Charles Aulds to the other end to get Matt Welsh's Running Linux? In my library, I could just point to to a single shelf with the 005's.
Shelving by author is fine, barely, for fiction, where a lot people tend to read every book by a particular author. Even then, a lot of large libraries tend to split stuff up by genre much like your local bookstore. But for nonfiction, organizing by subject for browsing and casual research is the only way to go.
As for Dewey vs. LC, well, that's up there with vi and Emacs. LC works well for academic libraries where there's a hell of a lot more in-depth research going on, while Dewey works best for public libraries. I find Dewey more intuitive, but that's probably because I know it best. In research institutions, where most patrons have the time to spend a half hour in front of a catalog session, LC seems to fit the bill. YMMV, natch.
Re:This could be good (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This could be good (Score:5, Interesting)
Things really have changed with the IP nazis on everybody's ass these days, but once upon a time there was a large market in reprinting expensive foreign titles and even making custom bound compilations. See the problem? Where are you going to file that?
Re:This could be good (Score:2)
Re:This could be good (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean in this day and age surely some sort of tree structure would be better (and be easier to manipulate by machines). Each book has n number of attributes where n is bigger than 0. You can go on adding nodes of type attribute until the book is described uniqely. Or dammit - just index them by the ISBN and chuck in a whole bunch of keywords to search by..
In other news, the estate of one Pythagoras is suing everyone for making the square of the hypotenuse on their triangles equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides - the thieving swines! Pop-Idol on BBC2 next, after the weather.
Assign Object IDentifiers to the categories (Score:2)
Re:This could be good (Score:2)
If you wanted to, you could use the 100 year old version with impunity, however.
Fees for this? (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, wait...
Re:Fees for this? (Score:2)
Or International Standard country codes.
Ahh.
nice quote inside the article (Score:2)
___P>
I suppose ___P> is phonetics for foot-in-mouth ?
340 (Score:4, Funny)
PORN! (Score:3, Funny)
Whoops - they actually tell you [libraryhotel.com]: 800.001.
That's gotta be a great come on line for those sexy-looking librarians: "Hey babe, interested in some 800.001?"
Except that she'll probably come back with "Only in your 800.005."
Out of business (Score:5, Insightful)
or maybe... (Score:2)
dumbass.
Re:Out of business (Score:5, Informative)
The lawsuit said the center sent three letters to Kallan from October 2000 to October 2002, asking for acknowledgment of Online's ownership of the Dewey trademarks, but the hotel owner didn't respond.
While I agree the hotel should pay the back licensing fees, I think this lawsuit is a little excessive. But given that they said letters were sent, it's probably just to get the hotel's attention. The OCLC even says at the bottom of the article that they're looking to settle, and they don't want the hotel to go out of business. They just want a licensing agreement.
I've been to the Library Hotel. It's a really nice place. Yes, the books play an integral part in the ambiance of the hotel. But the use of the Dewey Decimal System is hardly the biggest thing they've got going for them, or the most important. They could easily drop the DDC classifications of the floors and rooms and the hotel would lose nothing by it.
-Todd
Re:Out of business (Score:2)
There is no Trademark infringement in my eyes. Just another greed company with it hands in every's one public pocket tring to justify its existance.
My bet is if you wnet to corporate headquarters all you will find 75% unpaided A/R clerks.
Maybe they should merge wth SCO.
Re:Out of business (Score:2)
No they shouldn't. This is exactly the kind of crap that shows why 'IP' is a bad idea. How can someone own the idea of classifying books by subject hierarchically?
Re:Out of business (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Out of business (Score:3, Interesting)
Quite frankly, I'm still a little shocked by this fact itself. Perhaps I shouldn't be, but I never heard of libraries actually paying yearly fees for the rights to use it, until now.
Somehow, it just rings hollow - like someone telling me I'm not allowed to express computer notation in hexideci
Re:Out of business (Score:3, Insightful)
OCLC owns their specific system. If you want to create your own subject hierarchy, be my guest.
School library (Score:5, Informative)
I really doubt they have a license. And there's no way to find out until tuesday... I can't wait!
Oh, and here's a nice intro on DDC:
http://www.oclc.org/dewey/versions/ddc22print/int
(Why is there a space between the 'r' and 'o'?)
Re:A better history (Score:2, Insightful)
It's a trademark infringement case, not patent or copyright. Assuming that's the only issue, OCLC is not complaining that the hotel uses certain ranges of numbers to classify books (that would be patent infringement, but as the parent points out the patent would long since have expired), but that the hotel uses a trademarked term with Dewey in it in their advertising and promotion -- in effect, that they're making a profit off of OCLC's "brand". If I'm understanding this correctly, there would be no prob
Re:A better history (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A better history (Score:3, Informative)
It's pretty useless if you want to classify 20th century history, or airplanes, or cars or computers. Relativity and Quantum, just where exactly in Physics should those go?
DDC22, on the other hand, is latest, fairly-up-to-date product of immense amounts of hard (and it must be said mind-blowingly boring) work by dedicated specialists who classified 110,000 new items last year, and will no doubt have to cla
Connections (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article:
"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."
Don't you think that a person browsing the website might just think "Oh, they're a theme hotel"?
On the other hand, if libraries have to license it, then I guess that's how it works.
Re:Connections (Score:2)
Trademarked? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Trademarked? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Trademarked? (Score:2, Interesting)
They can (and presumably have) trademarked the name "Dewey Decimal" as relating to classification systems. As for the system itself, I don't think trademarking or patenting apply (at least not now, as the patent would long since have expired). I'd presume that the particular system would be copyrighted, in that you can't use that system or one sufficiently similar to it without permission.
Of course, if it were patented, we'd all be protesting about yet another damn silly patent - categorising books based
What's this part supposed to mean? (Score:2)
we have no way of knowing until the discovery takes place how much their profits are
Looks like a slashdot editor added that in... but what's up with the usage of "u" instead of "You"?
Question (Score:2, Interesting)
Does this mean that I'll have to pay if organise my book collection according to Dewey system?
Re:Question (Score:2, Interesting)
What have (Score:4, Funny)
hah (Score:4, Funny)
"Don't you know the Dewey Decimal System????"
CONAN THE LIBRARIAN!
LoC Classification (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:LoC Classification (Score:3, Funny)
D -- HISTORY (GENERAL) AND HISTORY OF EUROPE
E -- HISTORY: AMERICA
F -- HISTORY: AMERICA
While I'm sure the LOC system works fine for the Library of Congress, it does not seem to be widely applicable enough to replace the Dewey Decimal Sysem around the world.
Incidentally, I am shocked that use of the DDC requires royalties more than 100 years after its invention.
Re:LoC Classification (Score:3, Funny)
"BS"--The Bible, Hebrew and Christian
I don't get it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Patents would make a sort of sense, but Dewy Decimal dates back to 1873, so it can't be a patent. Copyright doesn't seem to apply since there isn't obviously a "work" being copied.
What gives? Is it just a matter of the trademark?
Re:I don't get it... (Score:2)
How is this even possible? (Score:5, Interesting)
On the other hand, it seems that the Online Compyter Library Center does do quite a bit of work to maintain the system, which should entitle them to some rights - but it sure seems that if some guy published something anonymously in 1876, he probably intended it to be in the public domain. Seems to me, if the hotel was based on the original system, and not the one improved by subsequent owners, he should be ok - especially if they referred to it as the "Melvil Dewey System" or something.
I had no idea it was owned - how come they aren't going after the elementary schools that teach the system? Or is that included in their library's license? And how come we're teaching a proprietary, trademarked system? Next thing you know, they'll be teaching our kids Windows!!!
Re:How is this even possible? (Score:2)
You'd think that it would be in the public domain by now, wouldn't you?
Re:How is this even possible? (Score:2)
it sure seems that if some guy published something anonymously in 1876, he probably intended it to be in the public domain.
Nope. Then, as now, there were provisions to leave one's name off a published work and still retain copyright. This is what Dewey did. He published it through a company he controlled.
elementary schools that teach the system? Or is that included in their library's license?
Yep. Training materials have long been a part of it.
And how come we're teaching a proprietary, tradema
Re:How is this even possible? (Score:2)
Re:How is this even possible? (Score:2)
Bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, right. If I was particularly jetlagged, drunk or whatever, I might pop up to the counter and ask to speak to Melvil Dewey. But I'm sure I'm not alone in that I never even considered that a numeric system invented in the next-to-previous century would still be owned today, much less that anyone who used it would be representative of that owner.
It's lucky that I'm ambivalent about my primary school; when I was there, I organised the books according to the Dewey system. If I were at all bitter, I'd rat them out, and not just becuase the 098 section was completely empty.
Oh, and here's something funny. In my research for this comment, I typed 'dewey 098' into google to see if it still meant what I thought it did.
098 is for forbidden books. Now that you know that google for 'dewey 098' while you're feeling lucky.
Created in 1873? (Score:5, Interesting)
Anything from before the 1920s should be in the public domain, even if nothing after that will ever go into the public domain. I mean, was there indeed some perpetual copyright clause slipped into some bill or another? How could anybody otherwise still own the rights to this?
Re:Created in 1873? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Created in 1873? (Score:2)
I found a convenient explanation [harvard.edu] (if anyone's interested) of trademark law, and you're indeed right.
So-- the criteria to bypass trademark infringement seems to be the separation between descriptive and proper-name style usage. (The link uses "All Bran" as a protected trademark, but "all bran" as a description is not infringing.) It certainly doesn't satisfy the 'generic' provision, because you don't call systems of organization "Dewey Decimal Systems" in the same way
How is this NOT public domain? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:How is this NOT public domain? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:whichever it is, it should have expired (Score:3, Interesting)
If the Dewey Decimal system is copyrighted, the copyright should have expired.
If it's patented, it should have expired.
And if it's trademarked, there shouldn't be any problem, since they don't call themselves the "Dewey Decimal Hotel."
Re:whichever it is, it should have expired (Score:2)
Wrong.
The Dewey Decimal System is still maintained, and updated. 130 years later. And if Linux is still maintained and updated, 130 years from now, it will still not be public domain.
Come on, people.
Re:whichever it is, it should have expired (Score:5, Informative)
It's trademarked, and there is a problem because they are using the Dewey Decimal System name in their advertising [citysearch.com] without permission.
library hotel (Score:4, Funny)
Why not use the LC system? (Score:4, Insightful)
Crap (Score:2)
Re:Crap (Score:2)
The internet has really only been effective at delivering pornography and as a place for people to bitch and sound off about what they think about various subjects (such as libraries). It has yet to become a reasonable ammalgamation of the whole of human knowledge that comes within a more convineien tform than your local library.
Also, the laws
To sue or not to sue (Score:2, Interesting)
I cannot understand why american companies are in this suing fury about copyright/trademark infringement.
It is really sad to see the world of business going this way.
They should try to look at it from a new angle and see the benefits they could have in a joint venture or by adopting a new business model.
How did they pick the damages??? (Score:4, Interesting)
From the CNN [cnn.com] story
"The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Columbus seeks triple the hotel's profits since its opening or triple the organization's damages, whichever is greater, from the hotel's owner."
"Dreitler said Saturday he and his client do not yet know the size of the hotel's profits. The center, based in Dublin, is willing to settle with the hotel's owners, he said."
If this does not scream frivolous lawsuit (or lottery ticket lawsuit) then I don't know what does. I thought if you were suing someone for "damages" that you had pick an amount, not just claim "triple whatever is going to get me the most money".
This is more proof that the legal system in the US is severely broken and abused.
Oh good grief (Score:4, Interesting)
oke. Back to subject. This leads me to the next question. How much sense does it make to make libraries pay for one more thing? And will the next step be to raise this license fee? Most libraries are struggling along as it is, so i hope not. There isn't enough storage and there isn't enough funding, and it drives me crazy to see book sales held sometimes, in those cases where it's just because there's no way to maintain the full shelves.
Let me rephrase this. Most libraries are non-profit entities. Five bucks a year isn't a lot of money, but it's money being charged for a standard system that would take a lot of time and effort to shift away from. Maybe derivative works should be allowed; if a hotel is using it for anything other than books, maybe it should be hailed as an innovative way to make people more aware of the system itself. But i'm willing to accept that the system 'owners' may have the legal right to collect... it's the obsessive nature of this particular instance that bothers me. *shrug* i could be way off-base.
So... the most important point here, i think, is: What's a better way? And how can we make it free to libraries and other non-profits?
Re:Oh good grief (Score:5, Informative)
It's sort of a hidden fee. The DDC book costs about $400, new edition every 3 years or so.
Note though, that the hotel isn't being sued for using the classification system, but for infringing on the Dewey trademark for commercial purposes.
it will never end. (Score:2)
we have immediately stopped using your system... but much to our horror and dismay, people keep putting the books right back where they got them from. if you would like us to mess em up a bit, let us know.
This is absurd. (Score:5, Interesting)
It would only make sense that they should have to prove that every customer who stayed there wouldn't have were it not for their use of the Dewey Decimal system.
It sounds like this non-profit actually serves a useful purpose, but I really hope that if this goes to court, their damages get capped at around $4500 (triple the money the hotel saved by not buying a license).
It's a Trademark infringement case. (Score:4, Informative)
The suit is for trademark infringement, not copyright or patent infringement.
In the U.S. Trademark rights can be held indefinitely by the registrant, or it's successors in interest as in this case, with timely filing of required paperwork and paying of appropriate fees.
What I find amusing is that the designer's of the hotel clearly did not do their homework. The research branch of the New York Public Library doesn't even use the Dewey system. It uses the Library of Congress categories. Here's the NYPL's online catalog. [nypl.org] I guess the designer's went into the Library to look at the architecture, but didn't actually bother to call for a book, or even check the catalog. Had they, they wouldn't be in this pickle.
Why the shock? (Score:2)
Who do you suggest pay to maintain the system and catlog the works-- a governmnet entity, or
Interesting thing about this lawsuit .... (Score:2)
If you read the article you will see it was filed by Frank Chetum of the law firm:
Dewey, Chetum & Howe, PLLC
Amazing level of greed (Score:2)
They already get paid through taxes for this work.
They're trying to double dip here.
Fantastic publicity (Score:2)
How many of us had heard of this hotel before today? Not only do they have publicity, but they have good publicity -- they're the 'victim'. Doesn't get any better than this.
(I wonder how willing a bank would be to offer a business a short term loan to cover legal expenses in light of the future increase in business.)
Random stuff about the DDC system (Score:2, Informative)
LOC? (Score:3, Informative)
HOW can this be????? (Score:2)
This Dewey decimal system is 130 years old! HOW IN HELL is trhere still a valid copyright on something THAT old??
This is INSANE!!!!Re:HOW can this be????? (Score:2)
Re:HOW can this be????? (Score:2)
Read the article dumbass. This is a trademark infringement case where the Hotel is using the "Dewey Decimal System" name without permission. The suit has nothing to do with copyrights.
Tradmark law. (Score:2)
If the public thinks dewey is public then the trademark suit fails. In order to have a valid trademark it has to be recognized in trade. Essentially the same thing happened to unix, although AT&T basically just gave up rather than continuing to press the issue. (I make a point of never capitalizing unix except at the beginning of a sentence.)
Case summary (Score:4, Informative)
Here is what I found. The hotel uses something which very much resembles the original DDC classification, which is in public domain. As the site states, "Each of the ten guestroom floors of the Library is dedicated to one of the ten major categories of the Dewey Decimal System: Social Sciences, Literature, Languages, History, Math & Science, General Knowledge, Technology, Philosophy, The Arts and Religion. Each of the sixty exquisitely appointed accommodations have been individually adorned with a collection of art and books relevant to one distinctive topic within the category of floor [libraryhotel.com] it belongs to.".
It's simply fucking insane that DDC is suing the hotel for that. I mean, WTF?! They claim trademark infridgement? They use the basic classification which is probably the same as original one, created 130 years ago and is now in public domain. If they use it, they are completely within their rights to call it "Dewey Decimal System" because that's what it is. And it's not like the hotel is in any competition with DDC. Nor any customers will be confused that the hotel is somehow affiliated with DDC. Stupid lawsuit and the whole concept of IP should be trashed. It's long overdue.
Re:Case summary (Score:3, Insightful)
Good so far...
Nope. The company OCLC owns a bunch of tradmarks on the Dewey Decimal Classification System as well as other names
Re:Case summary (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, it's completely clear-cut. The hotel is totally within their rights to call the system by its name. If they sell Smirnoff vodka in their bar, they can call it "Smirnoff". If they have CNN showing on a TV in the hall they can call it "CNN". If they have XBoxes in rooms, they can call them "XBoxes". And if they happen to use DDC for classification, they have the righ
Re:Perhaps this is why. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Perhaps this is why. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Perhaps this is why. (Score:2)
Re:Perhaps this is why. (Score:2)
Speaking of that, I'd be interested to hear their opinion on this.
Re:Next thing... (Score:2, Funny)
This is exactly what the law is for. (Score:3, Informative)
First, there is a big difference between patents and trademarks. They are (CORRECTLY) claiming trademark violation.
They own the trademark on Dewey Decimal System and other words. They manage the numbering system. The actual numbering system can be used by anybody, although businesses (not public libraries) may need to pay roalties based on their uses of the system.