Stealth Inflation 796
prostoalex writes "The New York Times on the Web explores the topic of incorrect bills and numerous surcharges with names like 'assessment', 'handling', 'restocking', etc. David Pogue quotes Business Week magazine, where it says that such small charges $100 million annually for hotels, $2 billion for banks and $11 billion for credit-card companies. Users of landline phones, cell phones, checking accounts and credit cards are starting to suspect that such huge revenue might imply the mistakes are made on purpose. Is it just another conspiracy theory, or are we becoming victims to the stealth inflation?"
Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Interesting)
Out the door I went into the world to get a new prescription filled and pay my co-pay...
A few weeks pass and the bill from the doctor's office comes showing what the insurance company paid, etc, and that I owed $5. No biggy, pretty typical. I did see that she charged my insurance company $103 for an "EKG Consultation Fee". Call me insane but there is absolutely no way she had the right to charge $103 for a 2 minute deal.
I went in the next time and not so calmly explained to her that she will not do that again without a) telling me what she is going to later charge, b) lying about what she was really doing, and c) being a cheat.
We wonder why insurance costs so much... It's because of hidden fees and bullshit that the medical industry decides to make a quick buck on.
That doctor made as much in 2 minutes as I do in 6 hours at work... She will NOT fleece me again like that... To those of you that say, "who cares, your insurance covered it." I say that my insurance co-pays just went up and they probably won't stop there. I am not going to stand idly by and watch this shit go down and you shouldn't either.
How about my bank? TCF here in Minnesota. I *pay* for their advanced online banking service (it's just like any other free service I have had before but it shows all the transactions immediately unlike their free version which just shows a balance). I started noticing that I was being charged for using out of network ATMs when I wasn't using them. I had four $6 charges in a six week period. I had to call them each time and get them removed. It wasn't an issue to get it removed it was the unsettling feeling that other people out there that don't have the advanced online banking are getting ripped off, a lot.
Sad state of affairs these days...
Just my worthless
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Funny)
if you think you're getting shafted by a company with "mystery" fees, just cook up an invoice for "services rendered: $11.52" and ship it off to their accounts payable department.
most of the people in accts. payable have a policy that any invoice that's less than a certain amount (twenty bucks or whatever) will just get paid. it's a great way to recoup your costs.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Funny)
Then just send them a bill as a consultant, something like $11.52.
Sounds like a good little side buisness to me.
--
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Interesting)
You provided a service
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't this is sort of like a more sophisticated, suburban form of those squeegie guys that clean your windshield? ;-)
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
What if one of the guys hurts himself while performing this unsolicited mowing? Why should my homeowner's liability insurance rates have to go up when I didn't even want the guy there in the first place?
At the very least, they should ask first.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Funny)
Since this clearly does not apply to you, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Informative)
Don't get yourself in trouble trying to "get back at the Man." I hate the Man as much as anyone, but there are smart ways and dumb ways to fight.
-B
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Interesting)
send them a bill.... Check writing fee : $9.95
you are doing business with them, you have a business relationship with them and it's perfectly legal.
I have done that for the past 2 years with the local Telephone company cince they atsrtedto charge $5.00 a month for making electronic payments.
They refused to pay it for the first 3 months until I sent a letter that I was going to send them to collections. I got a telephone call from their finance department asking what was up and I told them it was a fee they are being charged for me to write them a check every month. They asked how could they avoid the fee and I said, accept my electronic payment without a surcharge.
They keep paying it, and I even recently started sending a note on the bill "remove this check writing fee by accepting no-charge electronic payments!"
works great, is 100% legal (if they want to stop getting billed they can stop the business relationship with me.) and my lawyer thought I was very innovative and also told me that I am within my right to do what I am doing.
YMMV, but doing this is not automatically illegal as the misinformed here say.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Interesting)
I recently did battle with Sprint over a billing error. I fought and fought with them for months. Eventually I convinced them that if their fraudulant billing were exposed to a larger audience, that more irritating bastards like me would be hounding their accounting department.
I got a free years worth of phone service and long distance to keep my mouth shut and go away. It just ran out. I say give it a go, they're wrong and they know it.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Interesting)
Telephone and cable companies never pay them, but it makes me feel better anyway
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:4, Interesting)
Might be a good basis for a small claims action (IANAL - how about one out there?).
I've had an ongoing battle with Alltel cellular over a similar overcharge matter to that described in the article. Signed up for 1200 minute plan, got a 600 minute plan and a whopper bill. Paid the bill and requested the credit only to be billed the credit amount.
This happened three times, and having passed Accounting 101 back in college, I still can't figure out how one bills a credit. The memo on the bill said "CREDIT" but little details like pluses and minuses make a big difference (apparently Alltel's system required someone to input a negative number for it to be recognized as money owed back to the customer).
They never did figure it out and ended up owing close to a grand by the time I cancelled. I guess it's a great business model - steal as much money as possible before the customer notices. When they leave you, refuse to hand it back and let them realize the cost of an attorney is more than the value of what they've stolen. It happens all the time in the carrier/wholesale telecom business - so much that most telcos have to have a full time carrier audit person (or more) that gets to review and discover all the "mistakes."
Happens all the time. Perhaps the small claims law needs to be revised up to $2500 - its too easy for an Alltel to double the $500 cap for most small claims courts and force it to expensive litigation.
*scoove*
Re:Mmm... (Score:3, Interesting)
Dude....you need to go look for a new bank. I never bank at a place that doesn't give 'free checking', and free ATM usage for their own machines.
Whenever I move, I bank shop till I find one I like with these deals...and go with them. Out of the good ones...I drive
Re:Mmm... (Score:3, Insightful)
As for ATMs, another poster already told you of the virtue of using your card for debit purchases. Here's another tip that will save you from buying a couple of cases of soda. Federal law mandates that a merchant may not impose a minimum limit on credit card purchases. I know this as I own a retail store. Go to any grocery store, buy a pack of 25 cent
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
Trouble is, everyone thinks that its free as they don't have to pay any of it, and so the fees are increased and increased, and the premiums go up and up.
The other thing to watch out for is compensation paytments for everything. (you should have sued your doctor for
its those that cause inflation, not a 0.02 here and there.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Interesting)
When he was in the hospital for subsequent heart attacks, any time a doctor would peer into the room, he would check if he was being charged, and if so, he would make sure that the doctor answered some questions.
I must be in the wrong profession to make m
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:4, Insightful)
However, most of a consultant's time is reviewing the charts, labs, and radiographs. Only very seldom does talking to or examining the patient change a consultant's recommendations.
Doctors can't easily bill for follow-up consultations anymore anyway. So after the initial consultation, the doctor probably isn't getting paid anymore anyway.
Those "peek-in's" are usually just make sure the patient is improving and that the consultant doesn't need to re-evaluate the patient.
No doubt some doctors abuse the system and consult each other on every case. They should be in jail, not in medicine.
Usually, however, consultants see the patients much more frequently than they charge.
Davak
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to consider a couple of things here. The "two minute deal" was the time she spent with you. I suspect more time was spent actually "reading" the results of the EKG. Also, you need to realize that many times insurance companies will only reimburse physicians a portion of the total bill and its stuff like this that prevents many (including me) from wanting to practice medicine. I do research instead. Lemme give you an example: For instance, when my mother had her medical practice, there were certain procedures that ended up costing her money. An example is the cost to her of delivering babies. We sat down to run the numbers and found out that based upon her insurance rates, and the reimbursement from the insurance companies, each child she delivered was costing her $250. Furthermore, because physicians can be sued for delivery issues until a child reaches 21 years of age, she still has to maintain an insurance trailer until the last child she delivered reaches 21. Unbelieveable.
It is not the medical system that is out of control, it is the insurance companies and the managed care systems that foisted a con on the American public by saying managed care can do medicine for less. Instead of lowering costs, managed care has created an entirely new middle level of management that simply soaks up more money than ever before. Do a little experiment here. Go to your local HMO and look in the parking lot. The Porsches and BMWs you see do not belong to the physicians as much as they do the management staff of the hospital.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Insightful)
More simply put, two wrongs don't make it right.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Informative)
This is part of the theory behind MSA's (Medical savings accounts). The idea is that you put money into this account monthly--then when you need to go to the doctor you go to one, negotiate a price, then pay from this fund (I know it's a little more complicated than that, but the idea is essentially correct).
This means that you r
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, yeah, of course I'm being sarcastic. It's amazingly easy to underestimate exactly how much it costs to provide medical services. You're considering the apparent work that went into your 5-minute consultation. She's considering:
Sure, some doctors ( NOT ALL! ) make a pretty good living, but you'd be surprised to see how slim their profit margins probably are.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
Her salary
All Professions
Her rent
All Professions
Her electricity
All Professions
Her heating/AC
All Professions
Her transcriptionist
All Business related professions (Computer Consultant for example)
Her malpractice insurance
Liability, though not as high, but there
Her receptionist
All Professions
Her phone system
All Professions
Her disposable supplies
All Professions
Her equipment investment
All Professions
Her student loans
Most all professions
So now,tell me now where a doctor is special and gets off charging three times the rate of any OTHER profession!
ALL PROFESSIONS have these charges. As a computer tech you have outragiously expensive equipment, strange arcane knowledge, a bizzare incomprehensible language, and all the other trappings of any of the High Priests of our culture. So how come I can't charge Lawyer/Doctor rates? A con gents is still a con. Even when you drive a BMW to the con.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me defend my profession a bit. $103 dollars for an evaluation of an EKG is very, very cheap. An EKG is an easy way to rule multiple life-threating illnesses. Compare an EKG to an CT scan, for example. and it probably saves many, many more lives per dollar than many other studies.
With insurance the way it is, the doctor probably billed for twice that much... but only took what the insurance was willing to pay.
Included in that fee is the cost of the machine including upkeep, malpractice insurance, and the greater than 7 years of training that the doctor has received.
"Did you need an EKG" is another question completely. If you are an older man/woman with hypertension, then an EKG is not a useless test... especially if you were having any symptoms. Some docs (like myself) might use a different blood pressure medication if there are related EKG changes.
If you are 20 with hypertension, then it's harder to defend. Even then (thanks to the lawyers) anybody with pain above the belt will probably get an EKG because cardiac disease is so common.
Looking at a normal EKG for 2 minutes is probably about 1 minute too long. However, it's normal... but it's not useless. If we knew the answer without the EKG, then it wouldn't be a very useful test, would it? If the EKG would have been abnormal, then the doctor would have had to spend more time on it.
Anyway, rant off. Medicine as a lot of thing wrong with it. $100 EKG is not one of those things.
Davak
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Informative)
My pre-EKG teaching is "hey, I need to look at the electrical activity in your heart. Is that okay?"
I would love to explain to my patients the wonders of every test I order... down to the physics and chemistry of it.
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Funny)
But what would you love most: The explaining itself or the bill you'd send them afterwards?
So true... (Score:3, Interesting)
My wife had a c-section last November and it required an epidural(sp?). The eppy needle left a slight leak of spinal fluid (happens about 3% or so of the time when they do them), which in turn lowers the brain fluid level, which can cause horrible headaches when the woman stands up (i.e. her brain slaps against the skull w/o the fluid cushion).
My wife started having headaches, and we asked the nurse to get a doctor/anesthesiologist to come check her out. An anesthesiologist comes in and talks to us and say
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Insightful)
When the surgeon eventually returned into the room, I asked, "Look -- do I have to have general?" He looked at me like I was nuts: "Of course not!" More carefully, I asked, "Am I going to want general? Like -- is it going to hurt so bad I'll wish I was put out?" He replied, "Not at all. I doubt you'll feel a thing." I said, "OK, I'll pass."
(Sure enough, it was no big deal -- some blood, some bone chips, but nothing that I'd really describe as "pain" -- though the surgeon did comment that I was "a very tolerant patient.")
Anyway, when the bill eventually arrived, sure enough, there was (I believe) a $65 charge for "anaesthetic consultation fee." That's right, finding out the health risks of being put under anaesthesia was the most expensive video rental in the world.
But there's more! When I got the summary from my insurance company, they denied the charge -- because apparently the law says you cannot have the consultation and the procedure on the same day! I guess I'm supposed to be able to go home and think it over. (Never mind that I declined to have it anyway.)
Anyway, I later got another bill from the surgeon where he basically reversed the consultation charge. So my insurance company didn't pay it, and I didn't pay it either. The doctor just ate it.
Now, before you say "everything worked out" here, think about how f'ed up the medical system is and how it has to deal with the insurance companies. In that case, the insurance company said "no, we won't pay this fee" and the doctor, looking at his options, just shrugged and said, "OK, I guess I won't get paid, then."
And this kind of thing happens all the time -- and not just for questionable charges like this "video consultation fee." My mom worked for many years in the medical billing field (yes, there's an entire industry devoted to working out these billing problems for doctors) and she tells me that most doctors never see the full amount they bill for the procedures they conduct, if they have to bill an insurance company. Got that? Never. The power of the insurance companies is such that they -- despite being private corporations, not government regulators -- can essentially set the prices doctors are allowed to charge for procedures.
I have another friend who works for a large national HMO and he tells me lots of stories, too. You may not realize it, but there are a lot of people out there who, say, have their legs put back together through reconstructive surgery -- they can walk again, that kind of thing -- and then they turn around and say their bills were unfair and they won't pay. They get a lawyer and they flat-out tell the provider that they won't pay a dime. Again, mark me now: They don't try to re-negotiate, they don't try to set up a payment plan, they don't try to talk the doctor into rolling back a few charges. They flat-out say that they will not pay the bill, and in some cases, because of the structure of the industry, the way that it is regulated etc., they will absolutely get away with it. (Their credit might get messed up, but that's a different story.)
So my point is: Lest you read my initial story and say, "Yeah, doctors screwing the patients again," consider that the medical industry in the United States is maybe a different case than, say, sneaking an extra $2 charge onto your phone bill. Healthcare in this country has almost completely broken down. Personally, I place the majority of the blame on the insurance companies, though doctors are at fault as well. But the way the industry is set up now, both sides pretty much have to play these stupid little billing games just to keep the money flowing, and personally I'm hard-pressed to figure out how this is going to change without some serious regulatory hammer falling.
Easily solved... (Score:3, Funny)
Q.E.D
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Insightful)
That doctor made as much in 2 minutes as I do in 6 hours at work
No, she didn't.
My experience is generally that typical doctors charge about US$10/minute that I actually see them. Your charge is a little high, but not when you consider everything going on.
In case you hadn't noticed, there's a whole phalanx of nurses, receptionists and People to Deal with Insurance Companies. Not to mention overhead like materials, cost of space, phones, etc. Not to mention whatever is lost because of services provided f
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Sad state of affairs... (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, the float's in your favor, and now the bogus authorization for an extra $300 will go against a credit line where you have thousands of extra room that you'll never use, so you won't care about having those "virtual" dollars tied up. What's more, that 1% kickback basically comes out of the murchant fee, so the ca
My answer (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, in that order.
Re:My answer (Score:3, Funny)
Actually, if you're using an OR operand, the order is irrelevant. :)
Stealth Inflation (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Stealth Inflation (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Stealth Inflation (Score:4, Funny)
Inflation (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh yes (Score:5, Insightful)
Damon,
Re:Oh yes (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Oh yes (Score:3, Interesting)
Could we have been more efficient? Perhaps - but only after
Re:Oh yes (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Oh yes (Score:3, Informative)
I ship all CDs with a case, and then I ship it in either a padded envelope (if it's a slim case) or an actual CD box (like the ones BMG sends you CDs in) + postage and insurance or delivery confirmation and yes it can get close to $5. Usualy for me it comes out to arround $4.28 or something like that, but it's easier to charge $5.
Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, yes, they do, they just don't itemize it. How do you think they determine prices? Any business that doesn't consider sunk and processing costs when setting prices quickly goes out of business. But more to the point, why shouldn't you pay for the electricity they used preparing your or
Stealth tax (Score:5, Interesting)
It all started with adding the sales tax to an item's advertised price to make up the real cost to purchase it.
That still annoys me.
Cash discounts (Score:3, Informative)
Now, stores up here like to play games with this. They of
Re:Stealth tax (Score:3, Interesting)
And all non-optional fees that are directly related to the purchase of an item should be required to be included in the price.
Stealth Payroll tax (Score:3, Interesting)
Its called Payroll Withholding.
If you look on your paycheck, you will see some of it, but what you don't know is that you are only looking at half of the withholding collected. Your employer "matches" the amount that is reported on you payroll slip, but just like the S&H this is really paid by you because it is money that your employer could be paying you!
Think of it this way. When y
Human nature (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a simple-enough risk calculation - how much will I gain by people not noticing or not bothering for $xxx, how much will I lose by annoying customers. If that comes out positive, it's a good business (and only business) decision to do it. You'd need to re-analyse the figures periodically, and figure in public opinion when news breaks like this, but essentially it's money for nothing.
So, why are we surprised ?
Simon.
Re:Human nature (Score:5, Informative)
In 2000 ATT was my local cable service, I wanted pay channels and a remote control.
They quoted me a price, which was no where close to what I actually paid.
Normal Sales Tax, I calculate this into everything already, I expect it, roads, schools and such.
Additional charge for the remote controls, the installer said they're extra, huh?
County franchise tax, which has something to do with the fact their cable is strung through the county.
City Franchise tax, same as above, but for the wire strewn through the city.
Sales tax was calculated after these taxes, the bill was over $50.00 greater than the quoted rate. I argued with ATT to at least calculate the sales tax corretly, they essentially told me to F$%@ off.
So I did, I canceled cable, went to circuit city, bought a directv system, installed it myself and later that day had crystal clear satellite with just sales tax added in.
Then I canceled my long distance with ATT after a phone conversation cost me $1.00 a minute, they said I'm not on a plan, so I asked about one, they said I had to pay additional fees every month to be on one, I told them to F#$% off this time, canceled long distance service entirely on the landline, the cellphone has nationwide anyhow.
After sometime I saw a deal with ATT cellular online, it looked better than everything else out at the time, and my current cingular contract was up. I signed up online, the phone was shipped quickly, no hassels, until several months later.....
They apparently decided I didn't need the free bonus minutes, or the nights and weekends like I signed up with, I got a $490 cellphone bill, I lost the paperwork I signed up with, they did back credit for that month, but how many other months did they screw me on and how many people actually sit down with the calculator to tally all their minutes?
ATT has forever lost my business, this includes comcast, no matter the marketing spin, no matter the offer, they will never again be someone I pay cash to.
Oh and nearly everyone I know has kicked them to the curb as well.
Is there a difference? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that being said, I think that the companies intentionally do make extra charges all around and hide them intricately in deals as they see there. It wasnt 800 minutes but 700 plus 100 minutes. Now no one in the world is going to ask about that. I know to ask about extra hidden charges, but no that.
I think that the companies then through the complication of such systems easily profit from mistakes related to calculating the charges and fees. And they are not going to do anything to fix such errors.
So the question remains by not doing anything is that the same as actually cheating the customer... This client says YES.
must be an accident (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sure its all accidental .. and the fact that the charges are never in the consumers favor is a mere coincidence.
Of course sales of 'random billing error' plugin modules are skyrocketing! ... again, coincidence
Re:must be an accident (Score:5, Funny)
function overdraft()
{
srand((float)microtime()*1000000);
$num=rand(0,20);
$overdraft = $num*'29.50';
include('rand.reasons');
return rand_reason($num);
}
Just one more horror story (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Small Claims Court (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, when a collection agency gets your "debt", they send you a letter stating the amount, some of their bs, and a notice that you have 30 days to dispute the amount. You dispute it, claiming (truthfully) that you didn't have the service you were being charged for. Then it's their responsibility to get full accounting of the issue from the original "creditor". If that never happens, the account is dropped. If it does happen, you do some ba
"Restocking" fees, especially! (Score:5, Interesting)
Thankfully, I'd used VISA to buy it, and complained to my bank, which refunded it in toto. The company did, eventually, issue me a credit - not only did they take out their "restocking" fee, but charged me to test it when it got there, *and* then credited me based on the current price of the ram, not what I'd paid!
Thank heaven for VISA. I did get *all* my money back (had to let the bank take the pitiful excuse for a refund that the company issued).
So yes, these "hidden" charges are, in at least some cases, the way companies can increase their profit margins. Caveat emptor, indeed!
Re:"Restocking" fees, especially! (Score:3, Informative)
Don't tell everyone who shops at Newegg.com then (Score:3, Interesting)
From their FAQ:
"What about restocking fees? How much? When? Why?
There is a restocking fee of 15% on all returns for refund, unless waived by our Customer Support Agent. Newegg is not responsible for manufacturer defects. We are not manufacturers. We are willing to replace a defective item. If a refund is requested instead of a replacement
Grocery Stores (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Grocery Stores (Score:3, Interesting)
Example: They had a promotion for a basket of strawberries for 99 cents. The display in produce had a huge sign above touting the sale. Under the sign was a bit of empty space and baskets of premium strawberries priced at $4.00 a basket. The first time I grabbed the basket under the sign and when I noticed that the price didn't match the sign I told the cashier, who said she would credit the price and literally, "...if you're not lying." (Once again
Just look at Ebay.... (Score:3, Informative)
If two-bit entrepenuers have figured out that this is a sneaky and effective profitmaker, I am sure it is not lost on the bigger, hungerier corporations....
=========
Re:Just look at Ebay.... (Score:4, Informative)
It is a conspiracy theory (Score:4, Interesting)
"Is it just another conspiracy theory, or are
we becoming victims to the stealth inflation?"
Clearly both are true, if one accepts the
non-standard uses of "stealth" and "inflation".
I've been waiting for a class action (Score:5, Informative)
- CALIFORNIA CODES
The beauty (or horror, depending on your perspective) is the "unfair" part. What was not technically illegal in the past may now be sued for if it is "unfair."BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE
SECTION 17200
17200. As used in this chapter, unfair competition shall mean and
include any unlawful, unfair or fraudulent business act or practice
and unfair, deceptive, untrue or misleading advertising and any act
prohibited by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17500) of Part 3 of
Division 7 of the Business and Professions Code.
Next case, hidden bank and ATM fees...
Nextel Class Action (Score:3, Insightful)
Funny you should suggest that. I just got my Notice of Class Action Settlement [fpcrclassa...lement.com] papers in the mail from Nextel.
They've been charging most everyone an extra $1.55 per line for "Federal Programs Cost Recovery Fee" - which is really just a rate increase disguised as a government-imposed fee. What sucks about it is that all I get out of it is 9 minutes/month for three months. I don't even use all my minutes as is... I bet the lawyers made better than that.
You don't need a conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Example: the company I use for registering domain names made a mistake and charged for a domain name that was actually not available. Now, after some hours of trying to get service, I just let it fall. Hours' work to get $35 back is just not worthwhile. I'm not even annoyed with the company, it's my choice to let it slide.
So, over time, there will be an inflation in the greyness of transactions, ironically quite the reverse of what you'd expect from a more and more automated system.
Haha, this gives me a terrible idea. In decades from now, I guess we'll have shifted to a system whereby basic consumables are paid by taxes levied on our level of income. Much simpler and eventually the same result. Think RIAA taxes, but on the entire arena of consumer products.
OK, sorry, ruined your evening.
Been going on for year with teleco's (Score:5, Interesting)
Number Portability Inflation (read profit) Scam (Score:4, Interesting)
Nah, this has been going on forever... (Score:3, Interesting)
They took like $600 US before the check even arrived at the school!
You might notice these fees apply more to people who are in need. I remember when I first got out of school I had trouble saving money, and a few times my bank account fell below the minimum and they got me for $25 bucks. Of course now that I make a good income, I find that I don't get caught on many of those hidden fees. Everyone wants to be nice to me now
Of course I do pay higher taxes, but I really didn't notice that as much as you would think.
Money rules (Score:5, Interesting)
Banks did this stuff all the time... (Score:4, Interesting)
Not all banks did this, and it wasn't standard practice (at the time -- don't know now). It was odd enough that it was the talk of our company for a couple of weeks.
This sucks (Score:5, Interesting)
I refuse to get phone service because of this, cell or otherwise. It is insane that the priveledge of using over 100 year old technology to talk to people costs on order of 1/2 the amount to power my house for a month.
I pay over $1,600 dollars a year in taxes for my house which is in a city. I always thought that city == trash pickup because of said taxes. Nope, they charge me 15 bucks a month on my water bill for trash, plus 4 dollars "maintence" on the sewer systems. I dunno what the sewer charge is for.
The only way that this is going to stop is if people stop paying for it. I have asked hotels to take off the safe charge.
Back to the phone thing. I promptly canceled my last phone after the 12.95 a month phone cost me over $26 (yes thats double!). I told them that it was deceitful and false advertising and under no circumstances was I goint to pay that, and I have been without a phone for 6 months or so (my work does pay for a cell, so I'm not that hardcore). This phone thing really pissed me off because it was a switch of providers that I agreed to because it was going to save me $10 a month. Being that I was writing a check for over $26 before and after, I do not see how I was saving anything. These extra costs make price comparison imposible and I think that it should be illegal.
Re:This sucks (Score:3, Informative)
I rented a PODS [podsusa.com] storage unit. Upon ordering it I was suckered into a $5 charge for "POD insurance". It was only $5, and I assumed a one time fee, so I said sure.
I then found out that I was being billed $5 a month for said insurance.
Get this. The insurance was for their property on their property. I inquired as to how I could be in any way shape or form responsible for anything if I didn't pay this insurance, and noone coul
Re:This sucks (Score:4, Informative)
I don't carry all the bells and whistles, just touch tone. Think about that last one. I get billed
With "full" services (well, call-waiting), my typical phone bill was $25. Well, I cancelled call-waiting ($3/month) and found my next bill to be $26. WTF? So I go digging. Ah, there we go, I had a couple of long distance phone calls. For a total amount of around
Hey! A girl with an Indian accent answers my call! (But she spoke very good english and provided good service, I just thought it was a bit ironic). I complain. She explains that she will take the $3 "fee" off and will also discharge the $1 consolidation fee, but AT&T will send me a bill for charges every month. She also says that the $3 "fee" will not appear on my bill ever again, leading me to think that it's a "sucker's" bill, hoping people won't notice it. Anyway, the experience infuriated me so much that I just cancelled my LD service right there and had LD completely removed from my phone line at home, but thought better of it and just went with BellSouth, who guaranteed there'd be no odd charges for "service" and no "consolidation" charge.
Because of this experience, however, I've now started combing over my power bill and other stuff, too, because who knows what else I'm paying for. In fact, I found out my bank charges me $1.25/month for "ATM service." Huh? Last I checked, using debit cards SAVE the bank something like
Stealth inflation builds real margins (Score:3, Interesting)
couple suggestions (Score:3, Insightful)
I would have a some suggestions:
1. Pass a law that a company is required to pay back a customer 50% of each 'mistaken' billing they make. The % amount is just a suggestion.
2. Pass a law that a company can't charge 'a posteriori', they have to inform you exactly of what they are going to bill you up front, before doing you any service. Better make them need your signature on it. While at that, limit the depth level of financial obfuscation to a (very) small number, even zero. No more 'mail in rebate 1, 2, 3' + 'bonus points a, b, c' +
I think it is reasonably easy to not make 'mistakes' with todays computerized billing systems.
Another hidden cost: Rebates. (Score:3, Interesting)
Off topic but I went there on black Friday. I did not expect the door busters to still be there but I thought at least a few of the Fri/Sat only things would still be there. I looked for about 15 things in the ad and the only thing that was still in stock was a pair of $15 speakers. They've been in business long enough to get a general idea of what to stock and how much, "15 per store" is insane and not even worth the printing space in the weekly ad. Thier lack of stock was NOTHING but a blatent attempt of bait and switch to get you in the store. Walmart has it's flaws but they were still putting out pallets of $29 DVD players at 2:00pm. BestBuy probably sold all 5 of thiers (5 indivudual units, not pallets) by 6:01am and the probably were $119 with 3 different $30 mail in rebates that all required the original UPC code and 12-26 weeks to deliver.
These tactics are all "hidden costs" that consumers are subjected too.
tax and tip (Score:3)
Its ridiculous. Most other countries (such as Japan) have a "What You See is What You Pay" system, tax and tip rolled in.
Credit Card Late Charges = PROFIT (Score:4, Interesting)
I know of one large issuer which has processing centers in many states. It intentionally mails its bills from the one with the longest average snail-mail delivery to your address (a friend of mine was in the meeting where this strategy was hatched at that company). Credit card companies have also greatly increased their late fees (they used to be trivial) and a late payment will usually cause any interest rate deal that you had to disappear, with your rate going very high.
In the good old days, paying your credit card bills on time was the best way to have good credit. Today, credit card companies prefer people who pay late, but always pay, and also those who keep big balances on the cards. Pay your card late and watch the increase in credit card solicitations in your mailbox!
I have a couple of cards that account for almost all my credit card usage. I use automatic electronic payments monthly out to eternity to those cards... payments exceeding the minimum payment expected. This avoids any late payment charges (and the loss of my mileage points) should I not get around to processing the bill and sending in the full payment in time.
Re:Credit Card Late Charges = PROFIT (Score:3, Interesting)
Sleazy banks and "computer problems..." (Score:4, Interesting)
A friend of mine is a financial planner, and now whistleblower. She's brought several of these sleazy operators into court and won.
A couple of her clients with recent bankruptcies have Household Bank credit cards. They're always having problems with web payments or automatic debits going through, being assessed usurous late fees, and then overlimit fees when the late fees put them over their suddenly-lowered limit. My friend suspects these "problems" are carefully programmed into the system, and has been gathering evidence to support this. So if anyone from Household is reading, we're on to you!
MCI is the Worst. (Score:3, Interesting)
One issue that sticks out in my mind dealt with the personal 800 service users being charged international rates for a domestic call. Someone forgot the jump in a nested loop. Oops. That COBOL can be trickey. lol.
The real stealth inflation comes from the Fed (Score:3, Interesting)
The Fed has been printing money like mad, for several years now. This is inflation, big time. The published rate of inflation is below 2% per annum, but this is deceiving. Consider an example: an electric table saw.
Perhaps its price has barely changed in the last two years. Is this an example of low inflation? No. The price changed only a little, but the table saw changed a lot. Two years ago, most of the manufacturing that went into the table saw was performed in the U.S. or Japan, or possibly Taiwan. Today, most of the manufacturing took place in China. The cost of this production decreased dramatically. The price did not. Where did the difference go? Was it turned into profit? Doubtful. Except for markets where a monopoly exists, profits are constrained by competition.
A similar story has developed for services. Consider an insurance policy, a home equity loan, or the interpretation of your last mammogram. Over the past several years, all three of these services became much cheaper to provide, due to offshoring. The labor used to provide these services gradually moved to India. The phone support, the analysis of creditworthiness, the medical transcription, the inspection of X-ray images, all of this (and much more) is steadily moving overseas.
The price, in dollars, of these goods and services has not changed much. The nature of these goods and services has changed tremendously. How is this possible? It's because the government has been printing money like crazy. It's not easy to figure out how much new money is being created. For some reason, newspapers love to report changes in the interest rates controlled by the Fed. They even report rumors of future changes in this rate. The byproduct of these rate manipulations is usually an increase in the money supply, and this information is rarely reported. If mentioned at all, it is in the form of an aside to a more "important" development. I've seen figures ranging from 6% per annum to 12% per annum. I don't know what the true figure is. But I do know that prices on goods and services should be in free fall right now. This, because every month, more of these goods and services are being produced by dirt cheap overseas labor.
We're enduring lower pay and more frequent spells of unemployment, due to offshoring. We're being denied the benefits of cheaper foreign-made goods and services, due to the Fed.
Insurance isn't for what you think it's for. (Score:4, Interesting)
Say you're Joe Average. Your family salary is average (say $60,000 a year, combined), with 2.5 kids and a dog.
Joe Average needs a Coronary bypass which conservatively costs $200,000.
Without insurance, Joe Average is dead. With insuance, his outlay is something between $0 and $5000.
Sounds like Joe just won the Lottery. As stated before, my twins and their complicated pregnancy probably would have cost me half amillion dollars out of pocket. As it is, it didn't cost a dime. (well, _maybe_ $200 in co-pays.)
So, Half a million for the birth of two healthy boys. How much has my family paid into insurance? A helluva lot less than that. Perhaps $12,000 over the last 5-10 years.
It's not the annual checkups the insuance covers for you, it's the absolute destruction of all past and future income.
Re:Insurance isn't for what you think it's for. (Score:4, Interesting)
Half a million for the birth of two healthy boys? Just think humans used to do that for free.
Times really have changed and money has no value. What does a million mean to you?
Absolute destruction of all past and future income? You act as if that's a bad thing.
Look, I'd rather die than live a long life in this system of metrics, insurance and taxes. I know how much people like you love paying bills and managing your coins, but its not worth having 2.5 kids and a dog for me. I would rather not bring an innocent child into a fucked up world like this. You can have your capitalism and eat it too.
Re:Insurance isn't for what you think it's for. (Score:3, Insightful)
a cautionary tale (Score:5, Interesting)
I am dead certain that most (if not all) [cell phone service starting with S] customers are being overbilled on their mobile phone usage just as we were, and I suppose [cell phone service starting with S] spends a lot of time adjusting bills. There must be some really horrendous software blackhole in their billing system that gravitationally slings stray phone charges all over the database like so many loose asteriods.
Why we sucked up so many nasty stray bits remains a mystery. Were they testing us because we were new with a one year lockin? Rather more a mystery is how it stopped. I can tell you *why* it stopped, and it was because of my wife. So they have control of some kind, which they exercise at need.
What makes you reach for the tinfoil hat is the thought that maybe they don't "fix" the problem at the core because as a business matter it makes them money. Someone did the math and elected to a) invest less in expensive engineers doing process debugging, b) spend a little hiring low-paid phone jockies in Nevada to debate billing issues with irate customers, and 3) scrape off whatever is not adjusted as easy money.
It is the lure of easy money, and avoidance of hard work, that creates this nonsense. Now that we have transferable mobile numbers let's see how long it takes service providers to clean up their act. And, let's see if honest billing impacts the bottom line.
Car Rental (Score:5, Insightful)
I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand I like it when the government tax gouging is made obvious. On the other hand I want things to be standard from place to place.
What lots of companies have been doing (hotels, car rental firms, and telcos are among the worst), is to make their prices look lower by "converting" a bunch of their overhead to "fees" that get tacked onto the bill (always phrased to sound like taxes but often including the overhead of handling the supposed manditory tax)
It's like buying a cup of coffee for $0.30 but going to the cash register and finding your receipt reading:
Coffee: $0.30
Property tax recovery fee: $0.10
Business license recovery charge: $0.02
Government mandated workers compensation surcharge: $0.25
Health board inspection fee: $0.08
Employee income tax recovery charge: $0.35
Corporate tax surcharge: $0.20
Sales tax: $0.05
City waste disposal charge: $0.15
That will be $1.50, sir.
As an aside, in a country where one of the rallying cries was "No taxation without representation" our politicians try to subvert that wherever possible. The prime example is outrageous hotel room taxes. Soak the tourists, they won't be able to vote against me.
Compuserve did this 15 years ago (Score:3, Insightful)
Another VP had as his yearly goal a target for revenue growth. Subscribers were very sensitive to the rates for the service, because it was very expensive, so he knew he couldn't just raise the hourly rate. So he sat down with some spreadsheets and crunched numbers, and noticed that they had two groups of subscribers. The ones who used the service constantly and ran up huge monthly bills, and those who used it occasionally and often had a zero balance at the end of a given month.
He instituted a new policy where a new minimum charge was added to the subscriber agreement, something like $2 or $4, but was only charged if you didn't already spend at least that much in hourly charges. As a result, this new fee would have no effect on the big-time users of the service, who naturally would be the most vocal users.
But there were thousands of users who fit in this low-usage camp, so once instituted, this new fee resulted in a couple million extra dollars a month rolling in. And with no extra work on the company's part, it was like free money! A month after insituting this fee, they had gotten like maybe a dozen complaints.
Needless to say the VP who made this decision got his million dollar year-end bonus, and everyone was happy. Except the few subscribers who paid attention to their bills.
I think this is where most of these junk fees come from. Executives who have little else to do than to play with a spreadsheet all day, play with numbers on end until they come up with some little slice of their user base that they can charge an extra fee to that is unlikely to complain, but will still affect the bottom line.
But as my story points out, this is not a new thing. Its been going on for decades or more. A couple of years ago I noticed AT&T and the other long distance services instituting a minimum monthly charge as part of their standard rate plans, and I thought back to that VP at CompuServe.
Double billing (Score:3, Interesting)
The cap goes into action, and I get a bill that is about double what I expect. When I look over it, I realize that I've been billed twice for the same electricity. I complain about it, and I'm told that it was a mistake because of the cap, and that it will be credited to my next bill.
The next bill comes, and the charge is still there, and earning interest. I'm now at the point of having to manually calculate my bills (partially because when the cap went into effect, the utilities company took about three months to adjust their billing system), complaining every couple of months, and even writing the occasional letter regarding these errors.
And then, in October, I get a notice that because of my debit, I have to pay what I owe ASAP or they will require a deposit. Let's just say I didn't take this well. After calming down, I wrote them a polite letter where I pointed out that you cannot bill somebody twice for the same electricity, enclosed a copy of the bill where the mistake first appeared, and requested a meeting within two days.
The bill was corrected the next day, and both the double billing and the interest it had accrued were removed. I swear, though, if they had charged me a deposit fee, I would have gone to my lawyer and sued their asses. Nobody screws around with me like that and gets away with it.
The Mondrian hotel, LA... (Score:3, Interesting)
Very nice place, it had to be said. The room - well, suite - I was staying in was the size of my flat back home.
The problems came when it was time to check out. Although Warners were paying the basic expenses, additional ones (phone calls, room service, etc) were expected to be covered by us.
Now, I hadn't touched the minibar (there was a convenience store just down the street for booze and snacks), the premium cable had been left alone because Warners had taken me out every night, I had no girlfriend (hey, I'm a /. reader!) so there hadn't been any phone calls, I hadn't made any calls for room service, I hadn't connected my laptop to the internet, I hadn't thrown the TV out of the window or taken a big shit in the middle of the living room requiring special cleaning... hell, I even left a decent tip.
Go to reception to check out? I'm handed a bill for $95 dollars of assorted 'additional services'.
Needless to say, I went ballistic and all the charges magically vanished. But it was a lesson in how places like that operate. They obviously assume that guests have all their expenses met by somebody else, so couldn't care less if a wodge of charges are added to the bill.
Now, I know that if I'd presented those expenses to *my* employer expecting them to be paid, they would have laughed in my face and told me to fuck off...
Naked among cannibals (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Sprint (Score:3, Funny)
Did she travel at all? (Score:3, Informative)
It sucks, but it's normal.
Re:The BusinessWeek article (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with most of what you have written, but I take exception here. Let me explain why...
I work at a fairly successful mom-and-pop computer retailer (the store has been in operation for 22 years). We charge no restocking fees, and are more than reasonable about refunds. Here are the consequences of our honesty and generosity:
EVERY DAY, LITERALLY, we have customers who come into the store and buy ink cartridges for printers that they don't own. They sit in front of their computer and printer for eight hours every fucking day, but they've never noticed the make or model. They buy an ink cartridge from us, rip it out of its packaging when they get it back to their home or office, and then expect a full refund or no-fault exchange when they return it to us the next day. Sadly, we almost always oblige them in the name of keeping-the-customer-happy, and it costs us hundreds of dollars (if not thousands) a year. First, the store has paid me to handle both the sale and the return, which has very little margin, so the return renders the "sale" profitless. Then, because no one will pay full-price for an obviously (and inexpertly) opened ink cartridge, we sell it for our cost (or less) to a subsequent customer, and the store also pays me for that transaction.
Or the customer who buys a cat5 cable or a wireless ethernet card on a Friday, casually asking what our return policy is. When I tell them that we like the item back within a week, unless it was defective or there was some other reason that reasonably delayed its intended return, their eyes light up. This tells me that I have just encountered one of our "borrowers," who have a LAN party to attend that weekend, and don't want to spend any money. This happens with extreme frequency, and come Monday they return the item.
Or those who are vacationing in our fair city, and brought their laptop, but forgot their power adaptor, so they buy one fron us only for the duration of their holiday.
Or those who buy five different cables (of different lengths, USB and parallel, etc) because they don't know what type their printer uses or the length they require, and it is easier to buy five and return the other four than it is to have checked or measured before they left the house.
We don't charge any re-stocking fee, and we take things back nearly 100% of the time as a general policy, but it is awfully hard to continually smile about it considering the abusers I've just described.
Re:Intentional or Mistaken? (Score:3, Insightful)
I once called SBC about getting DSL service. I just wanted to find information about it. They said they'd have someone call me back. Months later, I get DSL equipment and setup software in the mail. I'm very confused by this, and spend my time finding out what is going on. I certainly don't want any bills showing up for this since I didn't order it in the first place (and once it is on a bill, it is harder to get rid of). They said I signed up for service