Computer Engineering Degree Most Valuable 818
Anonymous Squonk writes "CNN reports on the National Association of Colleges and Employers quarterly salary survey. Computer Engineering degree holders once again command the highest starting salaries at an average of $53,117, but Chemical Engineering is gaining rapidly, and Computer Science graduate's salaries are up 8.9% over the year before. Most of the other geek disciplines rank high on the list as well." While starting salaries for some degrees are up, the overall situation is not very good - indeed, your salary may be decreasing.
Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, until something is seriously done by the government and companies (determing a percentage that can be offshored, completely redoing the tariffs in the so-called "free trade" agreements, etc.), it's difficult to make a case for going to a college or university. To train for what? Everyone behind a desk is vulnerable to being offshored.
Thankfully, Lou Dobb's program is putting the spotlight on this issue each evening! Tonight, he's going to focus on the companies who are the worst abusers of offshoring. Last night, he focused on the owner of a Tool and Die shop who is complaining that "free trade" has ruined his business and it's about to go under. His specific complaints were that tariffs on his stuff going to China is 29.9%. Stuff coming from China to the US has a tariff of 3%. In Mexico, they freely use and dump chemicals that he would go to jail for dumping. This is free trade? Our elected officials agreed to this? Holy cow! The playing field is not level or even close to being level.
Until the tariffs are equal and labor/enviromental issues are equal with our trade partners, America is going to continue to lose jobs, companies, and wealth. Our future is slowly being flushed down the porcelin convenience. Our own beloved industry - IT - has near double-digit unemployment. Good luck to new graduates trying to enter.
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Insightful)
Depressions have been started because competing companies got into tariff wars. And political fallout (steel tariffs and the EU, anyone?) gets nasty too.
Heinlein always talked about democracy being likely to fail when people voted themselves bread-and-circuses. I wish he would have speculated on the sequence of events that could cause it.
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Insightful)
How about both companies having a 3% tariff???? Better yet, until China has labor/environmental laws that are enforced, THEY should have the 29.9% tariff and he should get the 3% tariff.
Honestly, whoever agreed to these trade laws was totally asleep at the wheel.
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the way it is in China, the US has no real say in what tariffs that China imposes on imported goods, but obviously the Chinese government in this situation has chosen to protect its local industry from foreign competition by forcing the competitions prices for their citizens through the roof.
The same applies even to the Canadian/American agreement (see softwood lumber, and grain disputes). The American government has repeatedly placed huge tariffs on Canadian goods (currently over 25% on grain, and upwards of 50% on lumber) because the American companies can't compete with Canadian producers. However in this case with a WTO binding free trade agreement, this is illegal. Which is in fact, why we have been to court on 13 different occasions to have these tariffs repealed (and won, every time).
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Insightful)
The guy that the parent poster would like to export stuff to China, which is growing at hyper-speed and has plenty of tool and die customers.
But the Chinese gov't slaps a 30% tariff to encourage local industry.
The US is utterly dependent on the Chinese government and Industrialists buying US Government debt that we accept that situation.
Heck, the "free" market people have even convinced people like you that the destruction of our nation is a good thing!
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Insightful)
Steel tarrifs were a HORRIBLE thing. You are only looking at one side of the issue: Steel worker jobs. Think of all the companies in the US, cars, construction workers, machines, that rely on steel. They all had to pay this insane rates because the steel workers couldn't adapt. The end result? Hidden jobloss in these sectors from companies that can't compete well, not to mention inflated prices on the goods these companies produce.
Make no mistake, tariffs are ALWAYS a bad thing, regardless of which side institutes them
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:4, Informative)
Good luck to anyone who thinks China will decrease tariffs on US goods. If you think that will happen I have a bridge to sell ya
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Interesting)
Sorry but this just isn't so on the Depressions having started because of "Trade Wars." The famous "Smoot-Hawley" Tariff which was supposed by those who argue this trash to have caused the Depression of the 1930's starting per Wall Street Oct 29, 1929 has a problem.
"For a complete myth, it is astounding how much this one gets repeated. Sharp observers have probably already noticed there is a problem with dates. The stock market crashed in October, 1929, but Hoover did not sign the tariff into law until June 17, 1930. So more sophisticated conservatives have refined the story: the tariff turned an otherwise ordinary recession into a full-blown depression. But even this is a gross exaggeration, and top economists reject it out of hand. Peter Temin, an economic historian at MIT, told The Wall Street Journal on February 22, 1996 that this historical revisionism is "wrong," according to the consensus of the nation's most respected economists. Paul Krugman, one of the world's top international trade economists, and one who is expected to win a Nobel Prize for his revolutionary theories in favor of free trade, calls the Smoot-Hawley theory "incredible." "
Quoted from http://mirrors.korpios.org/resurgent/SmootHawley.h tm
You have to believe in TIME TRAVEL to believe in that crap!
What is more the argument is entirely ignorant of the facts! We are in a "Trade War." One Government is placing a tariff on the goods and services of America causing them to have to be marked up about 150% while all other parties pay no such taxes. This Government is the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT and it is doing so encouraged by fools who claim that trade deals such as NAFTA and GATT which set up this condition are good for trade. Frankly they are wiping American Trade from the whole world! In addition they are driving the entire world into a depression and have set up much of the cause conditions that have us in the "War on Terror" as these desperate people around the world are finding US Trade Policies are collapsing their economies while causing them to have to pay US Costs of Living. I know! I saw this in 1996 in the Philippines and came back knowing a war was coming from what I saw there.
Regards to the speculation on democracy failing I noted some time back that as people got more and more ignorant of reality they might just legislate farming out of business because it was dirty. Shockingly they have done worse and your arguments are what did it! They have quite literally legislated making a profit in the USA to be ILLEGAL! Right now if you earn for your employer more than 2.5 Times the cost of freight to import your product or service he makes a profit by Exporting your JOB because of thes ignorant trade deals. That has made it illegal for an American to actually earn money for his employer
Regards the Political Fallout on Steel Tariffs and the EU, these IGNORANT Deals violated the most basic provision of the US Constitution which was that all States must give Full faith and Credit to the Rulings of other States. The GATT through the WTO was given the right to overrule State and Federal Laws. The WTO power arises from this. It violates the very basis of free trade in that no person wanting free trade can expect that he sets the rules for all sides of that trade. That local laws are to be respected. The fact of local laws being respected does not mean that they should not apply to all parties trading locally as with the GATT this principal does not exist.
The reality is I am for FREE TRADE! I love my Free Trade with other US States. If you back Free trade tell those who want it to JOIN THE UNION!
Currency manipulation is worse than tariffs (Score:4, Insightful)
That's hurting more than any existing tariffs. While China's taking advantage of free markets, they're not playing by the rules. I'm all for free trade and I hate protectionism, but China's currency policy needs to go.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Computer Engineering? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Computer Engineering? (Score:3, Informative)
That's part of what was so cool about it. We had way more choices than the other engineers. If I decided I didn't like hardware, while I'd still need the core digital circuits, etc., I could have taken, say, compilers, AI, etc. instead of VLSI and system design stuff.
That said, I emphasized in hardware and am now a s
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:2, Interesting)
Already feeling it on this one. I graduated in Decemeber with an Information Systems degree and am having little to no success on the job hunt. Nobody is hiring anybody straight of college as all of the jobs that are publically posted are requiring people with 3-5 years or so of working experience. What's that leave a newly graduated person like me to do? I've had professors and other people
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, white collar jobs are now vulnerable to off-shoring - but far more blue collar jobs have already been off-shored. There's a reason why factory payrolls just declined for the 42nd straight month, even as total payrolls in the US increased.
Besides, off-shoring isn't the only factor in the job market. Over all, it pays to get a college degree. According to surveys (see article [salary.com]) the average college graduate makes $17,000 more per year than the average high school graduate. Even if you go to an expensive private college at $35,000 per year, you still more than make back that cost over the course of your career.
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:3, Interesting)
Even at low interest rates, supporting a debt load that high for an undergraduate degree is lunacy.
And there is no guarantee that not going to college will leave you behind and going to college guarantees success. I know a girl who was a "bad girl" in high school and dropped out in 11th grade... she now owns 2 bars at age 23 and bought a $250k house with cash. I al
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:4, Insightful)
Coming from somebody who couldn't afford MIT, and happily went to Maryland.
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:3, Insightful)
I had a job while I was finishing my degree. At times, I even had two jobs (one full-time, one part-time). It might mean you only have time for one or two courses per semester, but it is doable. (Even a job that takes you out of town occasionally doesn't have to be an impediment...there was a discrete-math course where I ended up faxing in most o
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:3, Informative)
I would suggest you check out the US IRS website. You have to go to: "Tax Stats" "Statistics by Topic" "Individual Tax Statistics" "Collections" "Treasury Department Gross Tax Collections: Amount Collected by Quarter and Fiscal Year, 1987-2003. " You just might get a shock!
The reality must be noted in the Payroll Taxes which were not affected by the tax cut. Note that they should be rising about 3.5% a year to account for population changes. Also note that the cost of the programs covered by this tax
CS people need other skills too (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, that's amazing, because I recently returned from a career fair here at Caltech, and nearly every job needed a heavy programming background. The problem (for you) is, that they want other skills too.
Your REAL problem is that an increasing number of students majoring in physics, chemistry, math, etc have learned to program pretty damned well. That gives us a huge advantage - we can take a job that uses either our science knowledge, programming skills, or more likely both. Companies get somebody with a wider range of skills.
As such, I think the best idea is a major in the physical sciences or better yet, EE, with a CS minor (or double major).
I guarantee you this - if you had an EE/CS double major, or even EE major/CS minor, you'd be beating companies away with a stick. Particularly here in California.
Re:Good luck to new graduates! (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't the sort of protectionism you are suggesting akin to a socialist command-economy?
I whole-heartedly agree with you on the the unfairness with regards to environmental damage, which is why I believe you government shouldn't have torn up the Kyoto treaty. I don't see how this directly relates with regards to programming jobs moving to India though.
I hate to say it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Starting salary? feh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Starting salary? feh. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm in this exact case. I keep hearing, "you'll be rewarded down the road" and "if we're around in five or ten years, you'll have a great position because you'll have been here from the beginning." I'd rather be making a "competitive" salary now instead of hoping to get enough raises over the years to equal what I could find elsewhere.
Me first. Company second. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.
Re:Starting salary? feh. (Score:3, Funny)
Put this on top of every resume you send out.
How delusional is the alternative now?
Re:Starting salary? feh. (Score:5, Insightful)
you need to negotiatie up front for the best compensation possible. all future raises will be based on that going forward.
Re:Starting salary? feh. (Score:4, Insightful)
Tony.
Re:Starting salary? feh. (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah right (Score:4, Informative)
I took a job for slightly less than average, because I knew the company, and it was a fun job and all. Better yet, they were established and had been around for along time. Well 5 years and a new CEO latter the company decides the project that was critical to the future of the company is worthless and gets rid of our entire division. The company itself is still around and making money. The product...
Don't fall for the 10 years down the road line, they won't pay you more. Truth is you get two chances to get more wages, when you start, and when you threaten to leave. It is dangerious to use the second one, they may call your bluff, and even if they don't they are likely to look for your replacement because of it. So you start out a little more, with the promise that you will get rasies... Well guess what, the guy who didn't fall for that line and started at 10,000 more than you also gets rasies. And current salery isn't taken into account until you reach the top of your pay scale, at which time they consider promoting you. If you two do = work, you both get a 4% raise, but he is getting 4% of a larger number! Then when he hits the top of the current position scale (sooner than you, remember the position scale is also going up every year!) he gets promoted even though you both are doing essentially the same work.
my $. (Score:3, Interesting)
It got bad, but it's getting better (Score:5, Informative)
When I graduated last year, it dropped below $40,000, and it was extremely difficult to find a job. I have a friend with the same computer related degree with a 3.92/4.0 gpa who still hasn't found a job yet. And yes, I know that gpa doesn't always equate to ability/productivity, but this guy is really good.
I'm glad to see that things are back on the upswing for technology, even if this is just a start.
Re:It got bad, but it's getting better (Score:5, Insightful)
No college grad is worth $60k. Period.
We pay grads $35k. Good workers make it up to $50k in two years, mediocre ones go nowhere and shitty ones get fired.
Re:It got bad, but it's getting better (Score:3, Insightful)
Uhhh, dude (Score:5, Insightful)
Now of course in the bay area, 35k is practally poverty, you'd be sharing an apartment, maybe even a room, with someone just to make ends meet. So, all things being equal, the same job will pay more there.
Basic economics dude.
Re:It got bad, but it's getting better (Score:5, Informative)
Not to mention, you should take a job you enjoy with work you're interested in and an employer you respect. I would gladly (and did) drop a couple $k off my salary to find a job that I could be happy with as opposed to hating or enduring going to work each day.
--trb
Re:It got bad, but it's getting better (Score:3, Informative)
In fact, starting out after college I was surprised by the sheer number of folks who thought they could design and implement enterprise systems when their field of expertise was not software. And those projects all failed. ALL.
Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (Score:3, Informative)
Computer science often tends to take a more abstract view of the hardware. You deal more with the details of computing/programming like algorithms and data structures.
Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (Score:3, Informative)
We take the same 200 level (sophomore) classes as EEs except for an additional programming class. Aside from a few signals and probability classes, the rest is pretty different. You don't have to focus on hardware, although that is an option. You'll learn assembly in a microcontroller class (best class I've ever taken). You are required to take ASIC design and Computer Architecture in terms of hardware, but that's all done in software. Seniors take a class in either compilers or
Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (Score:5, Informative)
Like Chem and ChemE, a computer scientist is hired to solve problems and an Engineer is to find real world applications using those solution..
Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science (Score:5, Informative)
Back when I studied Computer Engineering at Iowa State in the mid 80s, the program was mostly the same as EE, but with the analog design classes replaced with Comp Sci.
Note also that the software component of many Computer Engineering programs tends to be of a more practical, hands-on nature, whereas many Comp Sci programs concentrate more on the theoretical aspects of programming.
I work in Human Resources (Score:4, Interesting)
The majority of candidates we are seeking are those with Comp Sci degrees. To any kid entering college now, take my advice - go to Washington University in Saint Louis.
We're hired from universities all over Canada and the United States, and I can tell you that the quality of hires from Washington University is far beyond that of any other school, including Waterloo, Carnegie Mellon, Caltech, etc.
Just one HR executives advice...
Re:I work in Human Resources (Score:5, Funny)
That explains why you are posting AC
Isn't McDonald's... (Score:3, Funny)
Do you want fries with that?
Re:I work in Human Resources (Score:4, Interesting)
I remember Trilogy Software out in Austin - there were a few people there who had fallen into this fallacy about Waterloo ("Waterloo grads are the best because we've had the best luck with our Waterloo grads"). At my old company we had the best luck with our MIT grads - probably because we were in Boston, and had a lot of MIT connections, so we were able to hire some good MIT grads. This seems to be a consequence of the availability heuristic (to use a term from social psychology), not a meaningful assessment of the capabilities, motivation, or anything else of these schools' graduates.
Re:I work in Human Resources (Score:3, Insightful)
I am a senior ME major HOPING to get 40-45k as a starting salary. I figure set my sights low and anything above that I get will be gravy.
And you do sound like one of the drone admissions people that work here, I can't fathom why they get paid a salary from my tuiti
College DOES affect starting salary! (Score:5, Informative)
If you're an out of state student.. like me.. this gets eaten up by extra loans quickly, but if you're fortunate enough to be in-state this can probably be a real help.
Re:College DOES affect starting salary! (Score:3, Insightful)
If you have a big name recognition school, such as Harvard, MIT, Caltech,etc. You are going to probably be offered more just for the name and the preceived additional skill level of the person who graduates from one of them.
Then you have the local big name school, such as Texas A&M being worth more in texas then in California. Again because of preceived values and a far better chance that the person hiring is from or knows someone from.
Then
Sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Nurses and Teachers are the people who should be paid better. Oh well.
Re:Sad (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think anybody who works in IT has much to complain about if you compare your situation with any of theirs...
Re:Sad (Score:4, Insightful)
Add to this the fact that not only do they make less money, they tend to have to spend a certain amount on the classroom, buying books, tools, etc. that the school can't/won't pay for. Ever fill out a 1040? You'll see that educators get to deduct up to $250 in expenses, why, because they generally spend much more than that in a year.
Furthermore, the teachers have to deal with the kids of people like you who don't have respect for what they have to do and only think "gee, it must be easy to only work 9 months a year."
My fiancee has a bachelors and masters degree in education, I have a bachelors in EE/CompE (a real engineering degree, not this bullshit lets rename CS as CE crap) and am working on my MSEE currently, and she earns 1/4th my salary.
It isn't right, but it won't be. Teachers salaries won't be increased much in our lifetimes (we have wacky priorities) and it doesn't matter. A good teacher teaches because that's what she loves to do. My fiancee wouldn't change professions for anything.
All I ask is that you please have more respect for people like teachers instead of ragging on them because you are ignorant of how hard they really work.
-dave
Re:Sad (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sad (Score:3, Interesting)
That's the key though isn't it? I had lots of teachers who were on cruise control, putting in their 30 hours of classroom work per week, getting the students to mark each other's papers, reusing lesson plans from when they were young and idealistic.
That's where having a union hurts overall. Those same teachers were the ones who had the most seniority, so got paid the most, and were impossible to get rid of.
Being a fantastic teacher doesn't earn you any more money, and d
Re:Sad (Score:3, Interesting)
A lot of this can be blamed on the oddness of the priorities of teaching unions.
Their preference is to have start teacher's pay very low, and then make marginal increases until year 10 or year 15, at which point huge increases will occur. (At least, this is what happens at many large urban systems, like here in Columbus.)
So a teacher may start out at $25k-$30k (an ok amount of money for the great
Re:Sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sad (Score:2)
Re:Sad (Score:3, Insightful)
ANYBODY with an high-school education can teach children to read and count. Quite frankly, any adult who feels academically unqualified to teach elementary school should sue their high school for educational malpractice. The only bit that makes the job difficult is managing large groups of small children. That's something that can be gained only be experience, and would best be learned in a one-year apprenticeship.
Why am I qualified to make this statement? Because
Re:Sad (Score:3, Insightful)
Teachers work 9 months out of the year and are guaranteed employment for life. They teach a state mandated curiculum and have no performance standards to adhere to once they earn tenure.
Salarys for nurses vary widely. The nurse in a family doctor's office does not make alot of money, but doesn't need alot of skills either. Specialized nurses make signifigantly larger sums of money and need to maintain multiple certifications and take continuing education.
If you want to get rich, take a high stress
Labor Unions (Score:3, Insightful)
If starting teachers salaries went up, the teachers wouldn't have anything to back up those extra taxes they keep asking for.
Money... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Money... (Score:2, Insightful)
But... what exactly is it? (Score:2, Insightful)
I know it was all about the internal computers from microwaves, stereos, etc. where I went to school. [rit.edu] CE people had a very good combination of IT, CS, and various microprocessor-related engineering skills.
What does it mean to you?
Region Dependent (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought Experience was the real kicker ? (Score:3, Interesting)
The happenings at Matrox are a good example of great college grads from all the good schools with *ZERO* experience
Sunny Dubey
I got a MSCE! (Score:5, Interesting)
Well at least thats the way on the software side. I got my MSCE (oh yea, thats Masters of Science in Computer Engineering...) while working for an automotive Company. I have not changed fields and am probably not making nearly as much as I could. But I fear for job stability so I hang around.
Besides, we are adding more and more electronics to cars plus they are several automotive network technologies such as LIN, CAN, J1850, CCD, etc. Automotive field is not too bad a place for a CE.
Notwithstanding, our managers are also smoking The India Pipe(TM).
The best advice a new graduate can hear (Score:5, Insightful)
This was told to me while I was working as a software engineer commanding a decent salary. But I wasn't making the real money. That job belonged to my boss, who saw it fit to pay me a skim from his profit for a job I performed.
What was I to do? Whine? Talk about how "greedy" he was? Criticize him for his lack of technical skills (compared to mine)?
All of that is excrement. Instead, I chose to become an entrepreneur. I found partners, made deals, and now am in the process of opening my second restaurant as well as selling things over television and Internet. I think about business all the time, and work suddenly has become very, very fun. Life itself feels like a massively multiplayer game.
Oh, and here's another piece of advice that I learned that I wish someone had told me earlier: Anyone will loan you any some of money as long as they are convinced that it's in their best interest to do so.
Stop working for someone else. Find partners. Find investors. Find a way that you can make a business work. It's exhilirating and fascinating. And you won't go back once you are free.
Re:The best advice a new graduate can hear (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, if you can run a bsuiness. I'm terribal at some of the things needed to run a buisness. Selling for instance, I can't sell product. I couldn't sell a cure for cancer to someone dieing of cancer, not even for a penny.
I have in fact found partners to go into buiseness with. I'm a terribal judge of people though. My partners, while excited at first, soon realized this was real work and left me with a buisness that I couldn't make work alone. (It could have made some money if they had done their part...)
I like working 9-5 and not worrying after that. Sure I'll never be rich as far as money goes, but I'm richer than even Bill Gates because I don't tie my life to money. Sure I can't have a lot of things I want, but I can decide what I want to do, and there are plenty of cheap things to do.
I think you need to get your life in focus. Money isn't everything.
Re:The best advice a new graduate can hear (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The best advice a new graduate can hear (Score:5, Insightful)
The response to your post has been truly sad, but very typical for Slashdot. Essentially, you told people, "well, if you're having this problem, here's a solution that works very well!" But your (our) solution is hard, and scary, and not what people want to hear at all, so they attack and insult you.
This topic comes up about once a week on Slashdot. Outsourcing, lack of jobs, low pay, soulless corporate masters, etc. Every time, somewhere in the discussion is a post from someone who says, "yes, I noticed this problem, too, so I opened my own business, and now things are great!" and immediately the geeks go on the defensive, citing hundreds of excuses why they have absolutely no other option in life but to sit around waiting for SOMEBODY ELSE to provide them with the means to make a living. It's very sad. They seem to take this advice to be some kind of personal insult. Perhaps they feel it exposes the failings in their own lives, and they would rather spit vile back at you than look inward, and reevaluate the choices they have made in their own lives.
I also find it so interesting how it juxtaposes with the typical Slashdot libertarian bent. There are dozens of people with the "people who trade liberty for security deserve neither" quote in their sigs, or who smugly insist that every business has to "adapt or die!" followed by analogies about the buggy-whip manufacturing industry. However, when it's time to apply those same principles to their own lives, they expect someone else to take care of them. "A company has to give me a job!" "The government has to make these companies give me a job!" They refuse to understand that their own "business model" of
1. Get CS degree
2. Get job in tech industry
3. Profit!
no longer applies. However, "adapt or die!" is only good for the RIAA, not for themselves.
Yes, there are a hundred reasons why going into business for yourself is hard. Yes sometimes you have to work 100 hours a week. Yes you have to pay for your own health insurance. Yes, you may have to retrain in another field. No, you might not be a fantastic salesman right now, never having really tried it or had any sales training in your entire life. No you don't get two weeks paid vacation. No, you don't get a paycheck for the exact same amount every two weeks. Yes, it is harder when you already have kids and a mortgage. Working for yourself is hard, and anybody who says otherwise is a filthy liar. But so is anybody who says it's impossible.
Re:The best advice a new graduate can hear (Score:3, Insightful)
Yet, you still cling to the hope that "bean counters" (as you casually relegate them to a status beneath your exalted place in life, as a techie) will wake up, realize how
Another view from the AIP (Score:3, Informative)
Interesting to note that secondary school teachers seem to have the least opportunity salary-wise (as far as that chart shows); not only is their salary low, but they're locked in to the narrowest range, from about 27-32k.
Re:Another view from the AIP (Score:3, Informative)
A teacher's base salary is $30k, but you get a $2-5k differential when you get your masters degree, plus you get guaranteed annual "step" raises until retirement.
My sister started as a teacher five years ago making $29k. With her Master's (paid for by the school) and tenure she now makes around $48k and will retire at 50 with a salary of at least $80k.
Then she gets a 55% pension, guaranteed by the state consti
That's the best salary? (Score:3, Interesting)
Here in the Midwestern US, the starting salary for a retail pharmacist is more than $80,000. Surely it's even more in other parts of the country where the cost of living is so much higher.
I wonder why they aren't included in the survey.
Students: Beware of lies, damn lies, and ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe it's just in the US? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's extremely annoying, given that mechanics and plumbers (or even totally unskilled jobs like shunting boxes around a warehouse, which I did for a year or so a while back) can earn you almost as much as it's possible to earn with a degree these days.
The value of degrees has been reduced due to the UK government's insane scheme to get more and more people to go to university. We don't need more people to go to university - we need to make it harder to go to university so that only the people who really want to do it (and have the skills) can go, rather than lowering the difficulty of getting a degree so that the people who loaf it through university can also get degrees. It should be HARD to get a degree - I'm not saying it was easy, but I think it could have been harder. A degree should mean something, but these days I'm not sure it really does, because "everyone has one".
My youger brother decided not to go to university, and is an apprentice quantity surveyor in the building trade. He's a very intelligent guy, but it's just not worth him getting a degree. In five years time, I will be absolutely unsurprised to hear that he's earning considerably more than me (which he almost certainly will be).
Degrees aren't all they're cracked up to be, and the "extra" money you earn for having one barely covers the cost of going to university for four years in the first place.
I'm glad I have a degree, but it's not the big money earner it's cracked up to be - jobs are just too scarce at the moment. Personally, I blame the people who did computing degrees around the time of the dot com boom because they needed a degree and heard it was "where the money was". Now, there's a surplus of computer qualified people around, meaning that plenty of us who are actually really enjoy computers and are good at what we do can't get jobs because the gold-rush crowd are still hanging around.
Re:Maybe it's just in the US? (Score:3, Interesting)
The value of degrees has been reduced due to the UK government's insane scheme to get more and more people to go to university. We don't need more people to go to university - we need to make it harder to go to university
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This is so much the truth..
They introduce tuition fees and so on because universities are costing so much money, but then they let so many colleges become universities and so many E grade students enroll that its no wonder they cant afford to pay for them all!!
imo they should reduce th
Re:Maybe it's just in the US? (Score:3, Interesting)
Comp Eng (Score:3, Informative)
To sum it up, *in my opinion*, Computer Science covers the theory to application process and is closely tied to the real world of Computing, whereas Computer Engineering gives you a broad view of the possibilities while crunching through alot of busy work to "build character". When I added up the pros and cons of transferring I was almost in tears of joy to learn that playing with the linux kernel, tinkering with OpenGL were courses, and not distractions as such activities were in computer eng. Then again, I am a person who benifits exponentially from applying knowledge and not just memorizing and reading till the cows come home.
Organization (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyhow, there's no one solution for each person in my mind. Whether you at your job or some other guy at another job would benefit from collective bargaining (e.g. joining a union) is a decision best made by the individual. Then there's the professional organizations like the Programmers Guild [programmersguild.org] as well. But it's obvious to me that SOME type of professional organization is needed - I mean every other profession, except maybe McDonalds workers, have some type of professional organization, be it a union or more like the AMA/ADA/ABA. And our bosses sure as hell have Chamber of Commerce like guys in Washington DC making sure H1-Bs visa caps rise, or at least are not lowered and things like this. The ITAA [itaa.org] is the main association that does this, Microsoft, Intel, IBM and so forth give them millions a year to mostly screw IT workers in Washington DC. Plus they have a PR department that gets news media articles written that said there was a massive shortage of IT workers in the late 1990's and H1-B visas needed to be raised. In fact that's a standard line they are paid to push like tobacco lobbyists who say smoking is not bad for you, these people are still saying there's a shortage or will be soon, they always say that, they're paid to say that.
Finally I should point out that there is a lot of corporate funding for organizations like the IEEE, USENIX (SAGE), ACM and so forth. In some respects it's kind of ridiculous, it would be like having HMO's pay for and to some extent control the AMA. But anyhow, if you're in these organizations it's good to talk to other people and educate and agitate about it, but there has been internal politic problems in the past, and while doing some of that is good, you should also keep in mind that there are avenues and organizations available to you outside of them, like the Programmers Guild and other organizations. And if you don't like any of them, and know others who are dissatisfied, you can always start your own organization, web site, whatever.
Re:Organization (Score:4, Insightful)
Unions exist - as you said - to assist with collective bargaining, to work for better wages and working conditions, and most importantly (imho), to reduce layoffs without cause.
Professional organizations on the other hand can have a variety of functions. Most are focused on knowledge sharing. The AMA, for example, publishes magazines and gives doctors strong recommended guidelines based on thousands of doctors feedback.
There would definitely be a benefit to both types of organizations for computer scientists/engineers. However, try not to lump them together, as you'll get the arguments against both, and few of the pro's for either.
My two cents on unions are that they need to get a foothold in the one place that can make a huge difference - tech support centers. Places like "CallTech" and other minimum wage, low-benefit, high-stress environments are the perfect foothold.
They get the numbers needed to show that people gain benefit from being under collective bargaining, and they build a groundswell of support.
When you then leverage that to move into call/support for say, Sprint or Microsoft, you can see that it would be a trivial extension to break into the server rooms, the switch closets, and the rest of the company.
I don't think for a second that I need to give the Unions ideas though.. they've thought of it, they are working on it, and it will happen in time.
I really like the idea of a professional organization though.. add some strong credibility, and knowledge sharing.
Hope others have better luck than myself... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Hope others have better luck than myself... (Score:3, Interesting)
At least that is what I am told when I tell people that I have to take data entry or telemarketing jobs to make ends meet.
Looking backwards (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's take a longer perspective, shall we? The computer industry has been white hot for many years now. Those of you who were working in it were riding that wave for a long time. Good work!
It couldn't last forever. Those wonderful salaries were not reflected in other parts of the industry. For the experience and training most Computer Science graduates have, an appropriate salary ought to be much closer to what most other engineers earn. That's why so many jobs are evaporating. We'll get them back eventually, at salaries more in line with what the rest of the engineering world is earning.
That's the way business works. The demand was white hot for nearly a decade. Now it's only red hot. It was a good wave while it lasted. Business Revolutions like that come along maybe once or twice per century. Be thankful you had the chance to ride this one.
Yay! I'm below average! (Score:3, Interesting)
What I think would be more useful would be to report the average salary for a particular area. Although I know that I am making less than the national average, the cost of living here is also less than say, California, where the starting salary of course needs to be higher. I think I am probably making around the average for this geographical area, but I sure would love to see some hard data on that.
Re:i call bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:i call bullshit (Score:2)
Re:i call bullshit (Score:5, Interesting)
MBA, MS degrees command different jobs and different salaries than what was on the survey.
The real shame is that the elementary ed teachers starting salary dropped significantly. These are people our society depends on, and it it very difficult to keep the best people for the job in there if they can get (and need) better paying work doing other jobs that don't require as much skill or talent.
Re:Valuable to whom? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'm in Computer Engineering... (Score:3, Funny)
At my college, Comp-E is considered about average in terms of difficulty, certainly not up there with the grand kahuna of doom, Aerospace engineering.
Re:Damn, I shoulda partied down with the CE slacke (Score:5, Interesting)
Neither engineering nor CS have any sort of GPA requirements. If you can keep your head above water, they'll keep you. Naturally, GPAs are lower because the classes are harder.
The reason CE is considered so hard is that they hit you with the hardest CS courses (Operating Systems comes to mind) and you get more than a bit of EE (which, of course, is not trivial either). CS and EE afford you the luxury of only having to know EE or CS, not both (well, except for a bit of cross-training, not enough to impress anyone).
However, don't confuse this with "CEs can program better than CS majors at UMCP". They can't. Their knowledge of more esoteric languages like Lisp and Prolog ends up suffering in the process, and they're missing out on quite a bit of algorithm theory.
I'm a CS/Econ double major, and it's like accounting and economics. Yes, I've taken a massive amount of statistics and finance courses, but that doesn't mean I'd be the better accountant of a guy with a business degree in finance. Ditto for CE and CS - he's got harder courses, but it doesn't make him a better programmer, because I've got more of them where it counts.
In other words, the two majors aren't at all the same, and the idea of using CEs as the "better" cheap labor for coding isn't thought-out very well. (No, this isn't in response to the parent, but it's something I needed to say). I have no interest in being some kind of lowly code slave, which is why I got the Econ degree, too.
-Erwos
Re:Heres an Idea (Score:3, Funny)
Re:From one Comp Eng/EE professor... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wow good thing I didn't go to College (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow good thing I didn't go to College (Score:5, Insightful)
So let's translate the first premise:
To think if I only made $53k out of college, I'd be taking a 50% paycut. (O, P)
That's:
O > P (this notation means if O then P)
Now the conclusion:
Good thing I didn't waste my time and energy on a useless college education. (W, C)
C > W Conclusion (If I go to college, I was time)
Now, there's an implied premise: If I went to college, I'd be making straight out of school money. (C, O)
C > 0
Okay, now let's look at the truth table:
O P W C O > P C > O C > W
1) F F F F
2) F F F T F F
3) F F T F
4) F F T T
5) F T F F
6) F T F T F F
7) F T T F
8) F T T T
9) T F F F
10) T F F T F T F
11) T F T F
12) T F T T
13) T T F F
14) T T F T T T F
15) T T T F
16) T T T T
Oops! It appears that line 14 has a false conclusion but has all true premises. This means the logic is invalid. Roughly translated, this say that you can go to college, make out of school money, *AND* have it not be a waste. Gee, who would have thunk it.
Now, if you had added the premise that the only reason to go to school is not make more money then you'd have a technically valid argument. However, I would you and I would still disagree that the only reason to go to school is to make more money. In other words, having a valid argument doesn't mean the premises are true, just that the line of reasoning beginning with the premises is good.
Now, I might suggest that going to school might help you either articulate your arguments better or realize that money is not the only reason why you'd want to learn. Maybe that's a set of life-skills that would be useful for you.