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Music Media

Napster Business Model Not Generating Revenue 330

An anonymous reader writes "We all know that Apple generates revenue from iTMS via hardware sales. How the hell can pureplay music stores like Napster generate revenue enough to even stay alive? They don't. Is this the first indication of the bubble bursting? Is it time to figure out what to do when your Napster WMA files go unsupported after Napster 2 dies?"
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Napster Business Model Not Generating Revenue

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  • unsupported? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by kyknos.org ( 643709 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:07AM (#8217860) Homepage
    it means they need napster alive to be playable?
    • Re:unsupported? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:12AM (#8217880)
      It means if Napster goes away and you lose your file, you're screwed. You can't get it again even though you paid for it.
      • Re:unsupported? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by weileong ( 241069 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:38AM (#8217968)
        how is this different from buying CDs? The way the RIAA et al seem to put it, I'm paying more for the "licence" than the media. But just try to go back to a record store with a cracked/smashed CD and ask for a replacement.

        • Re:unsupported? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by senatorpjt ( 709879 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @02:41PM (#8219931)
          Deleting the music file would be more like breaking a CD (DRM doesn't make a difference in this case anyway), and if you do that, it's your own dumbass fault. This is more like having your entire CD collection stop playing because the record store you bought them from went out of business.

      • Re:unsupported? (Score:5, Informative)

        by Rip!ey ( 599235 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:41AM (#8217981)
        It means if Napster goes away and you lose your file, you're screwed. You can't get it again even though you paid for it.

        If that happens then your screwed anyway, even if Napster are still around and turning a healthy profit, something I'd personally like to see. Read the licence agreement [napster.com].

        I quote: "If you have Purchased Tracks, it is your responsibility not to lose, destroy or damage them. Napster shall have no liability to you in the event of any such loss, destruction, or damage."

        But since CD burners are mainstream now, and your allowed to burn each track to a CD up to five times, it's not too much to ask someone to take responsibility for looking after what they buy.
      • Re:unsupported? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by weave ( 48069 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:54AM (#8218377) Journal
        As for iTMS, if Apple doesn't go away and you lose your files, you're screwed. You can't redownload previously purchased music from Apple's site. They suggest you make backups of your downloads.

        So unless wma files need the occasional checkin to stay alive (like old divx discs used to do), then it's not really any different.

        • Re:unsupported? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by cosmo7 ( 325616 )
          I'm thinking this is part of the labels' restrictions on the download services. iTMS and Napster would almost certainly want to offer re-downloadables as it would increase their lock on customers.
    • Re:unsupported? (Score:5, Informative)

      by blowdart ( 31458 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:12AM (#8217884) Homepage
      It depends on how they coded the license, but in all probability no (unless they turned the backup license facility off and you need to recover your licenses after a hard disk crash).

      Windows Media licenses can be permanent, time limited or limited by number of plays. From the files I've seen Napster licenses are permanent. So if Napster dies, your licenses still work.

      But hey, lets not let facts enter into this <g>

      • Re:unsupported? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by real_smiff ( 611054 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:26AM (#8217933)
        Is that permanent for you, or permanent for your computer? (I'm hoping to last longer than my current computer). I've never used any DRM, i'm wondering how this stuff works.
        • Re:unsupported? (Score:5, Informative)

          by Jarlsberg ( 643324 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:29AM (#8218215) Journal
          For the computer - but you can back up the licenses and transfer them to another computer. It's a bit of a hassle compared to non-DRM'd files, but it works well enough.
        • Re:unsupported? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by AKnightCowboy ( 608632 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:12AM (#8218493)
          Is that permanent for you, or permanent for your computer? (I'm hoping to last longer than my current computer). I've never used any DRM, i'm wondering how this stuff works.

          Oh come on, haven't you learned how the system works yet? People who had albums had to rebuy them as cassettes to be legitimate. People who had cassettes had to rebuy the songs as CDs. People who have them as CDs have to rebuy them in lossy compressed DRM protected formats. When the next thing comes along, the RIAA will expect you to repurchase your entire collection in whatever format that will be.

    • by blorg ( 726186 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:17AM (#8217909)
      I don't know whether Napster's DRM'ed WMA need it to work - I'd guess they just need Windows Media to stick around. But that's the whole problem with DRM - sure, it's around now, but what about 20 years down the line? 50? 100? The RIAA and it's ilk want DRM to become the norm for all media - I don't know why the archaeologists aren?t complaining more.
      • "I don't know why the archaeologists aren't complaining more."

        Let's see ... is it because most of the current crop of big "artists" aren't really going to be considered classics by any stretch of the word in a few years once they've faded into obscurity?

        For instance take away Britneys/JLos/Justins looks and you ain't left with a whole lot else. :)
        • Archaeology (Score:4, Insightful)

          by MO! ( 13886 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @01:53PM (#8219626) Homepage
          Archaeology doesn't care about "classics".

          He's not talking about some kid 3 or 4 generations down the line blasting Led Zeppelin in his bedroom. He's talking about scientists who may try to understand the long-since-fallen nation of the USA.

          The vast majority of information regarding any time period tends to be tainted by the powers-that-be at the time (revisionist history) or lost due to sparsity. Should all of present day media be shackled with such short-lived technologies, then there would be nothing for those scientists to uncover that might paint a clearer picture of this era.

          The problem with most of the perspectives of the "producers" and the politicians they manipulate is they assume the world of today will continue with only slight changes over time. History shows a much different perspective - ALL societies that have ever been before have fallen. Some spanned decades, some (as our present) evolved over centuries, some (Ancient Egypt comes to mind) endured for many thousands of years. All of them eventually fell (via war or other catastrophe) and after a period of disorder, or outright chaos, another social order built up in their place (with most of what was gone forever).

          Considering the growing disparity between the wealthy and those in poverty today - and the increasing attempts to cement control by the former combined with the rapidly growing numbers in the latter, shows just how volatile our society is. How much longer until those once called Citizens, now called Consumers, are finally labeled with the inevitable Peasant. How long after that before the peasants revolt and destroy all that's been hoarded by the wealthy. There is absolutely no guarantee that the USA will maintain it's own social order, let alone the current "New World Order" as described by the first President Bush.

          I don't wish to spark a left vs. right debate on today's social state. Despite what both conservatives and liberals claim are the causes and solutions to such ills, they do presently exist. The longer they persist, the longer the risk. I do not advocate any such uprising, I do not predict any such revolt, I simple mention that historically speaking - the risk exists. Should our present society fall into chaos, and most of what we've accomplished reduced to ashes and dust, only fragments of what once was will remain. If these fragments are useless due to DRM, there will be nothing truly left. That is what the original poster was asking - Why aren't archaeologists (and other scientists) speaking up about this risk?

    • Re:unsupported? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Hanji ( 626246 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:21AM (#8217923)
      Not now they don't, and even if Napster disappeared from the face of the earth tomorrow, you'd probably still be able to play your Napster WMAs. But what about if you want to authorize a new computer to play them? What about if you upgrade your OS and Napster's software mysteriously breaks?
    • Couldn't napster provide an alternative model something like what they used to do?

      Now, they were involved in distributing music for free (let's not mince words, they did aid unlicensed distribution for whatever good or bad that was) and they managed to make money there. How? They sold napster branded products and used advertisements on their site. After all I think the RIAA makes music not just on the music they sell BUT ON THE BRANDED PRODUCTS that go with those artists!. What if napster sold Britney shor
  • by Ieshan ( 409693 ) <<ieshan> <at> <gmail.com>> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:09AM (#8217869) Homepage Journal
    >

    Just to kill two birds with one stone, I'll probably load them on Zip Disks. That'll consolidate all my unused, overpriced media into one small place.
    • And make sure you create a non-DRMed MP3 of the "click of death" sound. That way you'll be able to enjoy them long after both the music and the media are unusable.
  • by LawGeek ( 104616 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:12AM (#8217881)
    "Is it time to figure out what to do when your Napster WMA files go unsupported after Napster 2 dies?"

    Yes, it is. Here's what you do: buy an iPod, use iTunes, and try to keep remembering that you should have just done that in the first place.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      I don't think iTunes will dominate forever. There's this other company in Redmond that is eyeing its competitor's market share. That particular company has a proven track record of dominating just about any market it enters.
      • Re:Figure this out (Score:5, Informative)

        by tgibbs ( 83782 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:50AM (#8218011)
        As long as Apple survives, it seems likely that your iTunes songs will continue to be playable and portable. Of course, people have been predicting Apple's imminent demise for over a decade...



        Worst case is you burn your stuff to disk and re-rip to mp3 or whatever the current DRM-free format is at the time (or use one of the shareware utilities that does the equivalent without the need for an actual disk), at the price of a small loss in quality.

      • Re:Figure this out (Score:4, Interesting)

        by jocknerd ( 29758 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:25AM (#8218191)
        Dominates every market they enter? Really, I thought they pretty much only dominate two markets. Operating Systems and Office Software. Out of 7 business units, Microsoft only makes a profit in 2 of them. Maybe 3 tops. They use those 2 or 3 to fund the others.
      • That particular company has a proven track record of dominating just about any market it enters.

        Like their MSN ISP service which was supposed to kill off AOL, or their gaming console business which was supposed to kill off Sony? Being in second place -- a distant second place -- is hardly dominating! :)

        What has Microsoft dominated besides desktop OS and Office suites? Granted, they are two big markets, but Microsoft just can't decide to get into a market and be assured the market will roll over and le

  • Pfft... (Score:5, Funny)

    by blorg ( 726186 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:12AM (#8217882)
    I remember the days, not so long ago, when *any* serious business was loss making. That's not cool any more?
    • Afraid not.... lawsuits and IP [thescogroup.com] are the new business model.

      Oh and patents [amazon.com] too.. don't forget those..
    • Re:Pfft... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I work for a company, MusicRebellion.com [musicrebellion.com], that is currently doing a promotion of selling songs starting at a nickel (or thirty cents) a pop. We take a huge loss on every one, and we think we're cool.

      Our mothers seconded the coolness vote, so there you go.

  • Duh... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by heironymouscoward ( 683461 ) <heironymouscowar ... m ['oo.' in gap]> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:13AM (#8217888) Journal
    Any attempt to sell digital music while keeping the current cost model (where a huge part of the proceeds go to feeding record company structures) is going to be a loser.

    Apple don't mind because they drive hardware sales with it, and the lossy business model will drive off competitors.

    The questions for me are: how long can the music industry survive when it can't even make the Internet a cost-effective channel for distribution? And what will happen than?
    • Re:Duh... (Score:3, Informative)

      by Mononoke ( 88668 )
      Any attempt to sell digital music while keeping the current cost model (where a huge part of the proceeds go to feeding record company structures) is going to be a loser.
      That "huge part of the proceeds" goes to pay the debts of the musicians who created the music in the first place, debts the musicians agreed to when they signed the contract.

      No, it's not perfect, but it's what we've got.

      • Re:Duh... (Score:2, Interesting)

        by eWarz ( 610883 )
        Exactly, the recording industry is flawed to begin with. Without artists, there would be no RIAA, Without artists, there would be no record labels, but without record labels or the RIAA, there would still be artists. but sssshhh don't tell them that!
    • Re:Duh... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by dickiedoodles ( 728410 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:33AM (#8217958)
      how long can the music industry survive when it can't even make the Internet a cost-effective channel for distribution? They have made the Internet a cost-effective channel for distribution, the reason that napster is losing money is that the RIAA have used their monopoly to screw the online stores into a bad deal. It's very cost-effective as long as you happen to be a record label.
  • Hold on... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Chess_the_cat ( 653159 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:13AM (#8217891) Homepage
    Don't you think it's a bit early predicting the demise of Napster? They lost money, sure, but they just launched. It costs a lot of money to launch a business. You claim that their model doesn't generate revenue (and I think you may mean profits, not revenue) but I don't see where in the article that claim is validated. Add to that the fact that the article mentions they are restructuring to cover the costs and this post is a non-story.
    • Re:Hold on... (Score:2, Insightful)

      I feel this article hits the nail on the head. I read the other day that Amazon has just recorded it's first profitable year. Napster 2 is still very new, and its entered during a period where the whole market is still within a state of flux. Audio DRM still lacks consumer confidence and the company is built on a completely new concept. By that I mean they have changed from a free-to-all concept to a pay-per-song model. And considering age of the new company model, I would be surprised to see profit at all
      • Re:Hold on... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by zieroh ( 307208 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:27AM (#8218586)
        I read the other day that Amazon has just recorded it's first profitable year. Napster 2 is still very new, and its entered during a period where the whole market is still within a state of flux.

        I don't think Wall Street will be nearly as patient with Napster as they have been with Amazon. Amazon is a huge business with huge revenues (not profits, not until recently) and a business model that requires huge infrastructure in order to support, not to mention buying, storing, moving, and shipping physical tangible goods.

        Napster has none of these hurdles to surpass (and, in my estimation, none of the potential upside that Amazon has) and so it is unlikely that Wall Street will overlook more than a few more quarters of losses before they start pressuring Roxio to cut their losses.

        That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
    • Re:Hold on... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Meowing ( 241289 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:37AM (#8218649) Homepage
      You claim that their model doesn't generate revenue (and I think you may mean profits, not revenue)
      They meant revenue. Napster's revenues are listed as US$3.6 million for its first three months of operation. By comparison, the iTunes store topped a million in its first week, without the benefit of a holiday rush to get new, empty players into people's hands.
  • by Speequinox ( 662721 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:14AM (#8217892)
    It could be that they're absorbing a financial hit now so that 3 years from now, when brick-and-mortar stores vanish, they have brand awareness and at least some following among consumers. Besides having to compete w/ iTMS, Napster's problem is that they need something to distinguish themselves from the rest of the pack. As Napster II has discovered, brand awareness isn't always enough: it sure as hell didn't work for them his time around!
    • A company sacrificing benefits in order to "built up brand-awarness" hoping to become a distribution giant when "brick-and-mortar" dinosaurs finally vanish, all this in a market when a dozen other companies are betting on conquering exactly the same futur market?

      Now why do I have this feeling of deja vue?
  • Surprised? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jchawk ( 127686 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:15AM (#8217901) Homepage Journal
    Honestly are you surprised Napster is failing? Napster was one of the first victims of the RIAA's war against music swapping online. The average person's recollection of Napster is "Oh that music software that got shutdown." It's hard to shake that image, especially with Joe Smoe.

    Besides look at Apple... They're Itunes service has caught on with the Non-Computer-Nerd as well because Apple has been able to market it as the Cool / Easy to use music service.

    Hell even my mom could use I-tunes.
    • Just To Clarify... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gidds ( 56397 ) <slashdot@gidd[ ]e.uk ['s.m' in gap]> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:48AM (#8218007) Homepage
      (Not getting at you personally, but these terms seem to cause confusion.)

      iTunes (small 'i', big 'T', no hyphen) is an application, one that runs on Windows and Mac OS X.

      The iTunes Music Store (iTMS) is the web service. (Plenty of us use the former without the latter -- here in Europe, iTMS isn't even available...)

      And, while I'm here, a related point that also causes confusion: the iTMS sells AAC files that have been wrapped in a FairPlay encryption wrapper. Plain AAC files are not encrypted or restricted in any way.

      Right, now I've got that off my chest... Did anyone seriously think that people would be fooled by the Napster name? That they wouldn't realise it was a completely different service from a completely different company? I hate to rehash old jokes, but it does look rather like:

      1. Get cool name.
      2. ???
      3. Profit!
      • by tepples ( 727027 ) <.tepples. .at. .gmail.com.> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:49AM (#8218745) Homepage Journal

        the iTMS sells AAC files that have been wrapped in a FairPlay encryption wrapper. Plain AAC files are not encrypted or restricted in any way.

        Plain AAC files have two copyrights and several patents on them. The two copyrights are the copyright in the musical work owned by a sheet music publisher and the copyright in the sound recording owned by a record label; they come into play whenever anybody redistributes a recording in AAC format phonorecords.

        If you mean only technological restrictions, AAC has those as well. Without a decoder, you cannot play back AAC files, and it's a federal tort in the United States to distribute AAC encoders or decoders without paying the holders of patents that cover the methods that make up AAC.

        • by gidds ( 56397 ) <slashdot@gidd[ ]e.uk ['s.m' in gap]> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @12:26PM (#8219002) Homepage
          Okay, they have no restrictions beyond those should be obvious to all ./ readers; no more than MP3 files have.

          The point is that so many people assume that all AAC files are as restricted as the FairPlay-wrapped ones from the iTMS, and I think it's important to know that's not the case. Yes, AAC is a patented format, but so is MP3. Yes, AAC needs a suitable decoder, but so does MP3. Both are the audio layers from MPEG specifications (MP3 from MPEG-1, AAC from MPEG-4), and both are from Dolby/Fraunhofer. Both are published international standards. You can create your own AAC files, and play them wherever there's an AAC decoder, just like MP3.

    • Actually I think they average person's recollection of Napster was "that had something to do with music, right?" Which is why Roxio bought the name. If you are going to launch a music service then coming out of the gate with a name that people will recognise is a good plan.
  • by james b ( 31361 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:16AM (#8217904) Homepage
    Here's what I don't understand: Presumably, at a large cut of $1/song the record companies are spinning a nice profit. Otherwise, why would they be joining iTunes/Napster/everyone else?
    Now, if the vendors can't break even, why doesn't a record company (or, say, the RIAA itself) buy an 'unprofitable' online vendor and continue merrily selling songs - sure, the service itself costs money to run, but 100% of the money goes to the label. Is doing this stuff so expensive that it actually costs them more than $1 to let you download a song?
    I remember that Napster belonged to Bertelsmann/BMG before, but apparently not now. Hmm.

    /james
    • The problem with that, is the record companies have no idea how to run a successful online vendor. And even if it were part of a label, the 'online division' would still be losing money by itself.. Analysts would be all over this companies complaining that they have to sell off the business.

      In the end, they would much rather have somebody else take the loss. iTunes can survive, because Apple is using it to sell *more* iPods. The rest of the services don't have that indirect revenue coming in. And there i
  • A loss from what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by paragon_au ( 730772 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:18AM (#8217913)
    It doesn't say why the are running at a loss.

    Is it all the money they invested in creating the new software, paying up-front fees to labels, launch advertising, etc?
    Its quite possible that they have only lost money due to once time investments, while they are making a profit on the actual selling of music. In which case, given a year they'll start turning a decent profit.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:20AM (#8217921)
    Are we all so media-crazed that we always have to buy the latest single songs online? Do we fear that we're no longer cool, so we spend $400 on a jazzed-up Walkman? When the last brick-and-mortar store closes, when the last music-afficionado gets thrown out of work, when the 'hip' bands have been cloned to the point of utter whitewash, when the droids at BestBuy and cdnow.com have completed the assimilation, who will you turn to?
    Go buy a used CD, tape off the radio, or take your $400 and see 40 local band shows instead. Free your mind.
    • by fufighter ( 678350 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:30AM (#8217946)
      I don't know about you, but I don't sit infront of my _radio_ waiting for them to play my favorite song. and on another note... you said "jazzed-up". square...
    • . . .who will you turn to?

      I have a guitar and I know how to use it. Grab a conga and your friend who plays fiddle and meet me down at the park.

      Everybody together now:

      "Momma don't allow no guitar playin round here
      Momma don't allow no guitar playin round here
      Well I don't care what momma don't allow
      Gonna play my guitar anyhow
      Momma don't allow no guitar playin round here."

      KFG
    • Oh nooo... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by tgibbs ( 83782 )
      Are we all so media-crazed that we always have to buy the latest single songs online? Do we fear that we're no longer cool, so we spend $400 on a jazzed-up Walkman? When the last brick-and-mortar store closes, when the last music-afficionado gets thrown out of work, when the 'hip' bands have been cloned to the point of utter whitewash, when the droids at BestBuy and cdnow.com have completed the assimilation

      When the large record producers no longer have a lock on distribution, when even independent artists
    • by tepples ( 727027 ) <.tepples. .at. .gmail.com.> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:54AM (#8218777) Homepage Journal

      or take your $400 and see 40 local band shows instead

      Many typical customers of iTunes Music Store or Roxio Napster would have to sit and wait for nine years in order to get tickets to a local band show. Twelve-year-old children control many of their parents' music purchase decisions, and venues friendly to local bands typically require all persons who enter the premises to be twenty-one years of age or older.

  • by AtariAmarok ( 451306 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:43AM (#8217987)
    Most of the songs I look for on Napster, they just don't sell (not in their catalog). So it's off to Amazon or the CD store or a used music place.
  • by jimfrost ( 58153 ) * <jimf@frostbytes.com> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:44AM (#8217989) Homepage
    Napster2 hasn't been in business long enough to know if it's going to fail or not. I think you ought to give them a year, at least.

    And even if it does fail, that need not be indicative of the viability (or lack thereof) of the whole market. It might just be that they have a bad business model.

    Apple's iTunes and iPod provide synergy with each other but iTunes limits itself to only those with iPods (or effectively does, since converting from AAC to MP3 to use with other players is a pain). Nice for them in the niche market, but a limiter in the absolute sense.

    I think Napster2's problem, and what will limit iTunes even within the iPod market, is simply how much the stuff costs relative to physical media. I know that many people, myself included, aren't really willing to pay $10+ for only the bits when the (higher quality) physical media is similarly priced. That's just a bad deal, and that's why of the 700+ albums I have in MP3 format every single one of them came from a CD. If you want to give me less, you have to charge less; think $.50 a track, $5 an album. I'd do that.

    I don't really think the WMA format is limiting them, seeing as the only player currently on the market that doesn't support that is the iPod (excepting, of course, the first generation MP3 players; they all did by the 2nd generation, quite a coup for Microsoft if you ask me). Though, honestly, I'd prefer not to use either AAC or WMA -- unless, again, they give me even more of a price break for providing the stuff in a locked format. At $.25 a track, $2.50 an album, I'd do that. At those prices I can afford to buy again to migrate.

    But I don't see those prices coming down until the record industry screws up CD media to the point where most people won't buy it. Moreover, the record industry may kill their own online sales by offering CDs with both raw tracks and WMA encoded tracks, something they appear to be doing.

    • Niche market? (Score:3, Informative)

      by blorg ( 726186 )
      Yeah, like they'll only play on 50% of mp3 players [google.ie] and you can't listen to them easily [apple.com] in Windows [audiocoding.com] like you can WMA.

      Seriously, I don't think the problem is the AAC, it's the DRM. And that is common between iTunes and the WMA stores.

    • by amyhughes ( 569088 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:28AM (#8218595) Homepage
      I think Napster2's problem, and what will limit iTunes even within the iPod market, is simply how much the stuff costs relative to physical media. I know that many people, myself included, aren't really willing to pay $10+ for only the bits when the (higher quality) physical media is similarly priced.

      It seems the norm here to assume what's true for me is true for everyone. On this point (value of bits vs value of full media) you are in the minority. For most people the mp3 (or aac) copy is just as good, particularly if the full media isn't around to compare to. The remaining issues are liner notes and instant gratification. The latter wins.

      I'm also in the minority in that I'd rather pay (say) $14 for a CD (and rip it myself) than $10 for the compressed bits. It's my fear that the popularity of compressed formats may eventually make the uncompressed versions obsolete (from a market perspective) and unavailable.

      But I do use iTunes. I use it to, for example, fill out "greatest hits" collections. If there are 3 tracks that should have made it to the greatest hits collection but didn't, and there's room, I'll burn a new disc with greatest hits plus three. In the value of media vs value of bits comparison here, it may be $3 vs $14-$42 (for 1-3 additional CDs).

      Amy

    • Apple's iTunes and iPod provide synergy with each other but iTunes limits itself to only those with iPods (or effectively does, since converting from AAC to MP3 to use with other players is a pain). Nice for them in the niche market, but a limiter in the absolute sense.

      You're forgetting the single largest segment of the music market -- those with no portable MP3 players at all. Some of the other services are certainly targeting that market. Apple's iTMS works perfectly fine for people who listen via iTu

  • It had to be said (Score:2, Interesting)

    by blorg ( 726186 )
    In Soviet Russia [allofmp3.com], the music pays you! (Or pretty close, from 1c/track).
    • Right, I guess you use allofmp3.com too and remember what happened to download speeds last time Slashdot mentioned them.
  • Look at Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)

    by axxackall ( 579006 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @09:47AM (#8218004) Homepage Journal
    At the beginning Microsoft did not generate revenue. No pure software company did. It was IBM, a hardware vendor, who helped Microsoft to come up. So they did for Oracle (at eraly days of v5). So, yes, hardware vendors are now getting online music to work. But that only until people stop afraiding to download music. After that: a big part of RIAA revenue will go online (with RIAA participation or without). Then Online music will be self-efficient enough to live without hardware vendors.
    • Let's not forget Apple's contribution as well - Applesoft BASIC was shipped with an awful lot of Apple IIs. Plus Microsoft was shipping BASIC interpreters for just about every machine under the sun in the 70's. By the time PC-DOS was commissioned, MS had already been doing pretty well.
  • iTMS (Score:5, Informative)

    by Kazymyr ( 190114 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:07AM (#8218088) Journal
    Apple makes 35 cents for each song they sell. Of course they have bandwidth costs to cover, and the whole developing costs, but given their stellar sales it's hardly fair to say that Apple only generates iTMS revenue through pushing hardware.
    • Re:iTMS (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Liselle ( 684663 ) * <slashdot&liselle,net> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:34AM (#8218249) Journal
      Another twenty-five cents of that goes towards distribution costs. It leaves Apple with less than a dime profit per song. They are not taking a loss, but a profit margin of less than 10% is nothing to be proud about, especially when you factor in initial start-up costs. It takes a lot of time to make your money back.

      We all remember this [time.com] article.
      • Re:iTMS (Score:2, Interesting)

        by BuckaBooBob ( 635108 )
        25 cents for distribution costs? Do you mean bandwidth? It would seem to me that Itunes is the mechanism for distribution.
        • Re:iTMS (Score:3, Interesting)

          by tepples ( 727027 )

          It takes labor to maintain the iTunes application program for Mac OS, the iTunes application program for Windows, the iTunes Music Store web application, and the parts of the iPod firmware that deal with compatibility with the iTunes Music Store.

  • What bubble? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tomstdenis ( 446163 ) <tomstdenis.gmail@com> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:24AM (#8218189) Homepage
    It wasn't a boon to begin with. You have to bubble something up for it to burst. Not every moron and their brother who puts a face on "old technology" is an industry leader and going to revolutionize the world.

    I'm sorry, but the way you /. editors idolize the stupidest people really irks me. Let's get the facts straight. Napster was a cool idea when it was new. It was horribly written buggy software but the concept was cool. However, while mr. Napster was off doing whatever it is he does 300 others have written their own edonkey's and kazaas and winmx which are like a billion times better.

    Anyways, getting back to the point. Not all business models are sustainable and are rarely thought out for the long term. Hence the

    1. Stupid action
    2. ???
    3. Profit

    jokes. So how about we idolize the players who are not in it to make the quick buck but to actually help progress society and technology?

    Tom
  • by Mike Schiraldi ( 18296 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:27AM (#8218206) Homepage Journal
    The great problem (read: opportunity) with music is that supply doesn't meet demand: I'm sick of my music collection, i want to find new stuff, but it's really hard because you can't search for what you don't know exists.

    If i were the RIAA or one of its licensed resellers (e.g., Apple, Napster, Tower Records), i would provide people with their own personalized Internet radio station:

    You launch the application, and they start streaming you some music. If you like it, you give it a thumbs-up. If you don't, you give it a thumbs-down (and probably skip to the next song). Pretty soon they've built up a profile for you and can search their database for other people with your tastes. You're discovering all sorts of new music that you never would have heard of.

    But it's just a stream -- you can't save the songs and listen to them anytime you want. Unless you click "Buy this song", in which case the MP3 is saved to your hard drive. Perhaps you could even recommend songs to friends.

    Maybe the radio station could be subscription-based, but i'd run it as a loss-leader.

    There. That'll increase music sales tenfold. As a nice side-effect, little upstart bands could make it big (or simply make enough to support themselves) without having to get "discovered" by an "insider".
    • by FsG ( 648587 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:12AM (#8218505)
      First, you should know that the iRate radio [sourceforge.net] already does exactly what you're describing.

      Second, how will you ensure that this stream isn't diverted to somewhere else -- say, a hard drive? Once people start saving it, it's only a matter of time before their entire library is available on Kazaa. Programs such as StreamRipper32 [sourceforge.net] already make it trivial to save shoutcast radio streams to mp3 files; I imagine this effect will be duplicated fairly quickly to save these streams.

      • Second, how will you ensure that this stream isn't diverted to somewhere else -- say, a hard drive?

        Let them. There are already plenty of ways to steal music, and they'll never be stopped. You just have to accept this -- and understand that it doesn't preclude a successful business. Look at Apple.

        If there were an easier, faster, higher-quality music service with personalized recommendations, i think people would choose it over Kazaa / etc even if it cost money.
  • iTunes (Score:5, Funny)

    by caitsith01 ( 606117 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:34AM (#8218251) Journal
    While everyone hoots and honks about the DRM on Napster/Microsoft/Evil Company X, isn't it also true that those nice-guys-in-turtlenecks at iApple have also put iDRM on iTunes? I mean, they have some sort of computer-locking mechanism, don't they, that means you can't just make copies of music you buy on-line but rather have to use it on a restricted number of machines?

    In a way, Apple might really hurt on-line music - they are funding themselves with iPod sales whilst breaking approximately even on music, so they don't really give a damn whether their pure music business model is competitive or realistic - it's a loss leader. Kinda makes it hard for others to break into the market, and makes it hard for anyone to buck the RIAA's royalty harness if Apple's gonna sit there and pump millions of dollars in royalties directly into the studio's veins. I feel a little more skepticism is in order, and a little less of people writing iT|\/|s or whatever the hell that stupid thing is.

    I believe the difference in business model is this:

    Napster
    -------
    1. Set up music system with unrealistic price structure due to being the RIAA's gimp
    2. ???
    3. Loss!

    Apple
    -----
    1. Set up music system with unrealistic price structure due to being the RIAA's gimp but wear black turtleneck and pretend to be 'the good guy'
    2. ???
    3. Profit!
    • Re:iTunes (Score:3, Interesting)

      well, WMA DRM is built into the file format, Fairplay is a wrapper.

      since fairplay is a wrapper, tools can be created to extract the AAC file with no quality loss.

      if you are a DRMless purist, sure, all the services suck, but if you see it with a hint of grey, iTunes is the best service out there, if for no other reasons that it uses a file format that is not owned by any one single company and it can be played on Windows and Mac OSX.
    • Re:iTunes (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Hollinger ( 16202 )
      /me dons his Apple apologist suit.

      The thing about Fairplay is that it's really, really easy to understand what's happening, and to authorize computers to play the music. WMA is so flexible that understanding which rights you have and which you don't can be complicated, e.g. I can stream song X, but can't download. I can burn song Y Z times, but can't transfer. I can transfer song A B times, but can only burn it Z times (you get the idea). With fairplay, I can burn a song an infinite number of times. I just
  • by davmoo ( 63521 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @10:37AM (#8218269)
    You all need to keep one simple fact of business in mind.

    Very few new businesses (and this is a new business, because about all that was kept from the original Napster was the name) make a profit in their first two to three *years*. A great many of them take 5 years to show a profit.

    So why is everyone acting so surprised that Napster isn't making a profit after mere months? Oh yeah...that's right...this is Slashdot...we don't let little things like "reality" get in the way of a hyping up a story where none really exisits...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 08, 2004 @11:19AM (#8218542)
    This was written in May of 2003 with regard to the Apple iTune's financial model. The same financial model holds for Napster.
    ---

    Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:29:24 -0700 (PDT)
    Subject: Napster - any value in the brand?

    I've been trying to figure out the breakdown on costs for iTunes, here's what I've got so far:
    Balance Cost
    .99
    .29 .70 publishing rights & other payments to labels
    .24 .05 Credit card transaction base fee
    .21 .03 Credit card % of value fee
    .16 .05 Fraud / charge back cost
    .14 .02 Media delivery (bandwidth cost)
    .09 .05 Hardware / infrastructure costs
    .04 .05 Salaries & overhead

    Even at 2,000,000 song sales, that's not a lot of remaining gross margin, like $80,000 over two weeks and I suspect it's declining as well.

    The other way to look at this is that it's a loss-leader for iPods and other Apple hardware :-)

    ---

    Over the summer Steve Jobs confirmed [theregister.co.uk] that iTunes is not currently and may never be a profitable service.

    Napster is trying the university thing because it provides them with a fixed, recurring revenue stream. I wish them luck.

  • The easiest way not to lose your music is stick to non-DRM music.

    Let's look at a few facts.

    1. There are bootleg MP3s of any popular song you want on the Internet.
    2. Record companies will not give you MP3s.

    Therefore, people download bootleg MP3s. Why can't the record companies just supply MP3s? Songs are going to be bootlegged no matter what they do, so why not let me buy the songs in MP3 format? I would do it. Just look at all the people downloading DRM music, there would be even more peopl
  • Editors please RTFA (Score:5, Informative)

    by lambadomy ( 160559 ) <lambadomy@diediedieCOMMA.com minus punct> on Sunday February 08, 2004 @01:03PM (#8219304)
    I don't normally get this annoyed by the blurbs by the editors, but Taco this time stretches it a ridiculous amount. All the article says is that Roxio spent a lot of money getting Napster ready, and launching it. First line of the article:


    Napster-owner Roxio more than doubled its net losses year-on-year thanks mainly to increased spending on the relaunch of the music download service, which went live in October.

    Wow, a business loses money in its first three months of launch. News at 11. They also say:


    Roxio said in December that it expects to significantly reduce Napster-related spending as its moves away from the launch quarter.


    While maybe we don't want to believe them and they won't reduce these costs, it seems pretty likely. So saying "they don't" make any money is patently ridiculous, we don't have anywhere near enough data or time invested.
  • by giminy ( 94188 ) on Sunday February 08, 2004 @08:15PM (#8221935) Homepage Journal
    Is it time to figure out what to do when your Napster WMA files go unsupported after Napster 2 dies?

    Sure, use the age-old trick of defeating the copy-protection on your files: Get a 1/8" stereo mini-plug, and use it to loop from your audio to your microphone in. Then re-record all your music in a format that isn't crippled. You could even write a program to automate the process, although it would take as long to convert your files as your files are long in play time, unfortunately. But such is the nature of the analog 'last 1/2"' (distance between your sound card's audio out and audio in) solution.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

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