Need a Job? Move to India 1078
WhoDaresWins writes "As U.S. jobs move abroad, more Americans are willing to work overseas like in India as per a CNN.com story. The story talks about many Americans and also Indians who are American citizens moving to India for work. This story should be an eye opener to people who feel Americans cannot work in India. With a booming economy there is a need for skilled professionals with years of experience in a western enconomy and industry. Best of all, job listings are available online." Thomas Friedman has a piece called The secret to India's success.
Good luck getting a visa... (Score:4, Insightful)
Its not a viable option.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:4, Informative)
I believe it was the other way around - without being hired, you can't get a visa.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:5, Funny)
Oh come on, it's easy.
I keep getting offer for getting a Visa just about every day. My parent's dog even got one recently.
The visa is the least of the problems. (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't just wake up in the morning and think "gosh, I'll move to India." Moving overseas for employment is horrendously complicated if you are attempting to immigrate. When you are talking about people who have been struggling for 18-24 months already, it's a pipe dream for all but the most flush with cash. Regardless of the local laws, it would be suicide to come in without at least an entire year's budget in cash--and most countries require it, some of them require two years (see: New Zealand). For two people in most countries, that's roughly $120,000 in reserves. I'll just pull that out of my wallet. Obviously, India is cheaper, but what say we call it $10k per year per person. That's still $40,000 in burnable cash. That's undoubtedly far beyond what most of unemployed IT workers have sitting around--and if India doesn't work out, congratulations, now you're getting off a plane homeless and broke, but with all that bankable international experience. Whatever.
Besides, "you can just move to India" is so fscking abusive it makes me sick. It's basically saying "we think your life is worthless." Want to know why people accuse Indians of being arrogant about this issue? That's it. It ignores all of the cultural and social aspects to existing. "Just give up all of your family, friends, acadmic and professional relationships, oh and sell the pets too, to move to Bangalore." Unless your professional ambitions already include such ventures (in my case, they do and I have done it, so don't start with me), moving half way across the globe just for a paycheck is ludicrous.
Re:The visa is the least of the problems. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:5, Informative)
I believe it was the other way around - without being hired, you can't get a visa.
That's right (you can get a tourist visa but can't work on it), and it's the same in every other country I know of including the US. Just recently I heard of a German (a senior 70-year-old professor from a well-known university) who did not realise he needed a work visa for a short (under 3 month) teaching stint, and tried to enter under the visa waiver programme showing his invitation papers; he was arrested, kept in night for a jail and deported. Now that's barbaric. Ironically if he hadn't shown the papers they'd probably have let him in, it's just that his hosts couldn't have paid him then.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:5, Informative)
It works both ways. Its not simple to get a visa to get here too. A guy who sits next to me and has come here from China has a lot of interesting stories to tell about the hoops that you have to jump/go through to get the visa.
Without a visa you can't get hired.
You got it exactly the opposite way. You cannot get a visa if you are not hired. (Unless of course you want a visiting visa that would not allow you to work). For someone to start working in US, the first thing that they would need is for an employer to approve the hire part. You go about applying for the visa after you have the proof that you are eligible to work in the country.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:4, Informative)
You need a job first. The only visa you can get for the US (same as other countries) without a job is a tourist visa, and it's illegal to work with that.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:5, Interesting)
You say it's not viable, but think of the MANY MILLIONS of Indians that try to come to the US. Only few make it. Of course, here, there seems to be many. But that dwarfs how many don't make it. Not to mention the countless other countries.
I'm not from India, but from Nepal. A country that's even more impoverished with political and other problems. And I've lived in this country so long and there was no Nepali community growing up that my Nepali is very poor. Yeah for me. It's always important to keep in mind that there are billions who have it worse. That's what I have to keep reminding myself.
As someone else said, I understand how fortunate I am, though I don't feel it. I think its important for people to at least understand it and realize how many ways they have it much better. It's always possible to see others who have it better in some ways or another. And obviously you want to better you standing. But that's not where happiness nor peace come from.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:4, Insightful)
This always sounds good on paper but does little good in reality. I spent a lot of my life in some pretty shitty situations (life is pretty good now thank you) I used to say this to myself all the time. Did nothing to help me feel better though. Mostly I've found it useless to think about those who have it better or worse than you do. Just keep your mind on improving your own situation and survive.
Re:Your Going About it All Wrong. (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, if you get a job (illegally), a house and other things, then you can show ties to this country and would have a better case for not being deported, whereas if you follow the law, you'd have less ties.
My case is an even more interesting one. My visa didn't support me when I turned 21 since parents can no longer sponsor their children 21 and older. That puts me in an interesting category. I'm not illegal but somewhat "out-of-status". However, if I decided to leave the country and INS found out, then I'd be barred from re-entering for 10 years. Funny how that works out isn't it
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:4, Insightful)
Jeeze, you give up easily don't you?
As someone who has travelled a bit and worked in a number of different countries, I expect it isn't that difficult to get a working visa for India. Getting a tourist visa takes a few hours if you visit the embassy. There's probably a bit more paperwork for a job visa, but I doubt it's that difficult.
Re:Good luck getting a visa... (Score:3, Funny)
I can assure you that there are quite a few of them that will not be purchasing your beef jerky.
Mods on crack (Score:4, Insightful)
How is it that a post that starts off with a "cleverly" disguised racial epithet (Translation for the clue impaired: "Fuh Q Raghead" = Fuck you raghead.) has anything other than flamebait mods?
The rest of the argument is entirely redundant when taken in context with the rest of the posts on this article, so what's the excuse?
Note to the cretin who wrote the original post: "raghead" is most often applied to Arabs, not Indians. If you're going to be a bigotted asshole you should at least do it right!
So this means.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The cost of living in India is far below that in the US. You may be making less money but end up better off or the same as you are now.
Of course, that's until India loses all of their work to China.
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Only if living in American climate, American culture, American political/legal system, near to your family and friends has no value to you. Materially you might be better off, yes. Perhaps you would prefer Indian climate and culture, yes. Maybe you don't even like your family and friends that much and wouldn't mind moving 10 timezones away. But for most people, this is a drastic step.
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:So this means.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of foreign workers come here and take a job for less money than their American counterparts would, live much more frugally than their American counterparts would, and send a large portion of their income back to their relatives.
They are living a decent life (although perhaps not a luxurious one) and they're allowing their extended family to do the same.
To put it in more concrete terms, a single person making $30k can live on $15k, send $10k home, and pay their taxes with the remainder. That $10k is worth a lot more in places like India. Remember from the interview [slashdot.org] that "Many Indian workers live on between $35 and $100 per month."
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Funny)
And an elephant! Don't forget the elephant!
Re:So this means..Standards? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
To America, it seems, it's ok for Indians to be poor and begging on the streets of mumbai. As soon as those same Indians out-price the US, they should be stopped. Double-standards all the way :)
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you mean "Middle ${western_country} thinks free trade is fair when ${western_country}'s gaining from it, but as soon as ${western_country}'s deal isn't so sweet, fair trade is something to be condemned."
The US is not the only country in the world practising protectionism while preaching free trade. Trade unions in the UK are also complaining about jobs going to India. And farmers all over Europe are heavily subsisided while Africans are finding it hard to sell their crops.
Re:So this means.. (Score:3, Insightful)
The changes in the US economy are making it look more like a 3rd world nation's, where there is no middle class, there are the few
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Interesting)
If there was a shortage of programmers in the US... then sure, send some work overseas. However, when programmers can't find work and comanies are still sending jobs overseas, it's not good for our economy.
There was an interesting news feature a week or so ago where one company that was starting up decided to offer experienced programmers $40,000/year instead of (what they said the industry standard) $80,000/year. They had no problems finding people to hire and kept jobs here.
It's not a question of India's people and how good/bad they are... it's about keeping US jobs in the US during a time when the economy isn't the greatest.
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies are owned by their shareholders. Directors have a fiduciary duty to their owners: they must manage the business in their interest. They aren't there to manage "expectations", or to drive their stock price. The job of a company is to make money for its owners, plain and simple.
(This is what Regis at Adelphia, Ken Lay at Enron, everybody at Worldcom etc. forgot)
What companies DO NOT exist for is to provide jobs for Americans, Indians or anyone else.
If you want Amercan companies to be run for the benefit of the - abstractly - American economy, or American workers, then that's fine. But you must expect in turn that foreign countries will impose tariffs on American goods, and you must accept that companies will make a lot less money. You must accept that VC money (and other sources of finance) will flow to places where the business environment is nicer. And you must expect that entreupreners will - instead of coming to America - will leave to go to more free market countries.
If you still think that's good for America, that's fine. But you cannot abstractly tell companies how to manage their business.
If you want to discourage outsourcing to India, then there is a way to do it (also known as the South Korean way
But don't pass laws.
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
If American corporations don't exist in order to provide jobs for Americans and to benefit the American economy, then those corporations should not reap the benefits of American laws (and, by inference, American law enforcement), American infrastructure, the American military, etc.
You people who believe that businesses should be able to run in a vacuum are forgetting one very important thing: corporations exist to serve society, NOT VICE VERSA. This is why corporations are given charters by the government. It used to be that these corporations would have their charters yanked if they were shown to harm society, but that sadly has not been the case for a very long time.
Until people such as yourself figure out that the individual is a first class citizen and the corporation should not be, we will continue to see greater and greater abuses of the people by corporations.
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't really work. I'll take the example of walmart. It's a big chain that comes in and ruins most of the small towns it goes into. What happens is they sell cheap (both in price and quality) goods at "low low prices." On the surface, providing low cost goods sounds great... However, they drive out the smaller stores and then when it's not profitable they pack up and leave. What's left? Not much... walmart destroys these towns and people let it happen. I often ask people why they shop at walmart and they say "because it's cheap." I start to explain about how bad walmart is but they say I know but they have cheap stuff.
The bottom line has become the most important thing. This leads to a huge increase in initial income but what happens in a few years? If you don't care about your town or what country you live in then by all means outsource or by from walmart. However, most americans have become complacent. They think that the rights they have in the US are basic human rights that everyone should have. They don't realize what they have and therefore really don't care anymore.
I for one care about my country and I don't like seeing it's economy being hurt by things like outsourcing. You can no longer buy anything that is american made because everything comes from somewhere.
Trade is not bad... trade at the expense of your own economy is. All so a manager (who should really take a paycut if they want to save the company money) can save a few bucks.
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can see the Director, his expression firm with resolve: "I'm only here to ensure our investors see a return. If that means laying off our workforce and then giving myself a big bonus followed by cashing out my now more valuable stock options, then so be it."
Sorry, but I don't buy that at all. That's what stinks about globalization -- no matter the harm or benefit to us or India, you can guarantee that the CEOs, the Directors, the VPs will all be seeing nice, healthy benefits to themselves.
So they get rich, screw their workers, and tell us they were "just doing their job". They shake their heads sadly and say "I greatly regret having to do this..." before they swing the axe. Oh yeah, I can see them crying all the way to the bank.
Look at HP: struggling in many ways, huge layoffs, morale is low -- then the execs go off and buy themselves a nice fleet of corporate jets so they can cruise about the country making their deals in style. "Fiduciary duty" my ass.
If you want Amercan companies to be run for the benefit of the - abstractly - American economy, or American workers, then that's fine.
Stop making things abstract, so it sounds impossible or unreasonable. There is nothing abstract at all about a CEO axing a US job, hiring an Indian worker, and pocketing the difference in salary (or generously sharing it with the stockholders, one of the major ones of course being themself).
There is no reason a company can't be run for the benefit of its own employees. I guarantee you I have more invested in my company than any of the VCs or fund managers that have purchased our stock. So why must my company be run in a way where they are encouraged to screw me and help the VCs?
The corporation, despite unfortunate 14th Ammendment interpretations, is nothing more than a legal construct. The rules governing this construct are arbitrary, not a law of nature. Acting like the complete lack of responsibility to anyone but stock holders is an inevitable and inescapable feature of the corporation is a self-serving lie the beneficiaries of the lie enjoy telling far too much.
Me, I'm not eating that bullshit any more.
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a very immature attitude to take. In a free market, you've got to roll with the punches, and live to fight another day. You either adapt or die, bitching about it and instigating artificial means to shore-up the failing market just makes the problem worse. The root of this issue is the stupidly-inflated market values for things in the US compared to other countries. Solve that problem, and the jobs will flood back to the US.
Re:So this means.. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's like saying you are only religous until you want to do something that isn't allowed. That's not how it works. You don't do something because you don't think it is right and because it is not allowed. And if you are tempted to do something that isn't allowed, you fight that temptation.
So Free Trade is like a religion. You have to fight the desire to break out of it when it isn't as easy.
Re:So this means.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Free trade isn't a moral or ethical choice, it's an economic and political one; the material loss and gain is all that's considered here (sidestepping the queston of humanitarian issues).
Re:So this means.. (Score:4, Funny)
You take it on faith
If you get screwed doing what you were told, blame yourself or consider it a test.
Humor As Prediction (Score:5, Funny)
This is kind of a new paradigm for labor, using an old paradigm for other assets. If you run a corporation in America, you register it in Delaware. If you run a cargo ship, you register it in Liberia. Now, it seems that to work in IT, you have to register your body in India.
Moving to India? (Score:5, Interesting)
While spending 10 days in Mumbai and Chennai auditing Citigroup's new offshore partners, I was courted by the senior staff of one of them. "Come work for us, and you can live like a rajah! Your wife's a doctor? Forget it, she won't have to work, and she'll have servants!"
Even treated like a prince, put up in 4 star hotels, eating in the best restaurants, invited to private clubs most of the population can't get inside, my trip to India was a visit to hell.
Monstrous traffic, unbelievable overcrowding, incredible numbers of beggars, and Mumbai smelled like burning garbage... everywhere.
No thanks.
Live like a king (Score:3, Insightful)
However, for 1000 rupees a month, you can get yourself a butler/servant. As well, rent is like 1000 rupees a month, meaning you have several thousand rupees left to do what you want.
If you have more experience, I would think 20,000 rupees a month is more reasonable, which means that you could easily save
Re:So this means.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:So this means.. (Score:5, Funny)
I can guarantee you that you would NEVER have to flip hamburgers in India.
sad day (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:sad day (Score:4, Interesting)
Is it? Really?
Surely seeing another country is a positive experience. India is, by all accounts (my experience consists of 2 hours in an airport, aged 11) a beautiful country. It seems to me that India would be a fascinating place to work. And with a lower cost-of-living there's always the possibility that you might return home with more money that you'd have had if you stayed.
My dream is to experience as much of the World as I can - I never saw that as being incompatible with the American dream.
Re:sad day (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it mainly means that the construction industry has made great progress in creating low-cost building materials. For example, a good portion of my house, including some large support beams, is basically made out of glue and sawdust. Much of the rest is made out of extruded plastic, refined dirt (gypsum) and paper. Computers have undoubtedly helped the construction companies streamline their inventory, scheduling and manpower to significantly lower the cost of building a house r
Re:sad day (Score:5, Insightful)
This story seems suspiciously like... (Score:4, Interesting)
Alternatively... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Alternatively... (Score:3, Interesting)
"India" as the buzzword of the day (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, this could probably even be done legitimately. Ostensibly US companies frequently incorporate in other countries for tax purposes, so why not incorporate in India instead? Then you really could pitch your services as outsourcing to an Indian firm. Hey you enterprising Indians over there, somebody could probably make a decent business out of setting up shell corporations for US programmers.
Go to India for 3x less money (Score:3, Funny)
And never return... (Score:4, Interesting)
If you do, chances are you'll be in poverty because you will have saved very little and your job here will *still* be gone.
Gee, what a deal! *sigh*
Re:And never return... (Score:5, Interesting)
I have one friend who's been working in switzerland for a few years now, and another who's trying to go over, too. Better job, better wages, better food, better air, hotter men... ahem. When you could live, work and play in the Alps what would you want to come back to a roach-infested apartment in America for?
I'm not trying to start a flame, just offering a different opinion than the Nouveau Patriots with their "WORK & WIN" bumper stickers. *gets off soapbox*
Whoa!!! Hold on there little one... (Score:5, Insightful)
From those last two lines, you come off as someone who absolutely has no understanding nor knowledge of India, its culture and its people.
Sure, I agree that women are abused in various parts of this country, but women arent obviously hated!! Remember, we had a woman as our Prime Minister when the rest of the world was still letting their women run around in Bikinis and swinging to pop culture
The biggest problem in India is that there are still an immensely large population that has no education, has no healthcare, has no idea how to stand up for their rights. Corrupt politicians are not delegated to the Western world, we have them as well.
The Hindu Religion (Despite being a Christian myself, I have immense respect for Hinduism and for other religions as well), does not look down upon the women, the so called "holy" individuals who wanted to bend their religion to their needs and wishes, decreed that women were inferior. As a religion and among its scriptures and texts, Hinduism has utmost regard for Woman as a Mother, Wife, Sister, Friend and an Equal. And believe me, this religion and the indian culture has existed for thousand more years than the Western Civilization and Christianity (heck, Christianity came to India way before it reached the Western world, in 52B.C when St. Thomas reached the southern tip of India). So yes, this is a Land which is steeped in culture, which has treated women with utmost respect in all corners of it, and yet has been vandalized and abused by people in power, by religious nuts, who had their own agendas.
And when United States (formerly known as Land of the Free) shudders at the thought of letting immigrants who werent born here, having a shot at being President, India has no qualms in letting the Wife of a Former Prime Minister who was born and raised in Italy, get a swipe at becoming the nation's Prime Minister. Also, voting rights for Women, We didnt had to think twice about that either.
Oh one more thing when you are still trying to comprehend.. Gay Marriage is Legal in India (we just dont let them fornicate, now thats another story!)
So please crawl back to your trailer and show not your face and your intellect to the rest of us (That if you didnt know was surely a blanket statement, but meant solely for you)
Re:And never return... (Score:3, Interesting)
Poverty? Really? There's less poverty in India than in the USA now? My, how things must have changed...
I wonder about terrorism, also. Seems like Muslim separatists are targetting India now. No terrorism to speak of in the US since 9/11/2001, but I've heard of several recent incidents in India. One could say that terrorism in India is on a major upswing.
Re:And never return... (Score:3, Insightful)
And our povery here is shameful. We aren't even anywhere near to having a million people living in the streets of our national capital. And our train system? Pathetic. Why, we don't even let cows on the trains or pack hundreds of people on top of the cars.
And, finally, we don't even have a nuclear power on ou
Please. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, let me just pack up my family, sell my house and all of my belongings, kiss off my friends, and break every tie that I have by deserting my country so I can go work for $12 an hour.
Thanks for opening my eyes. I'll take my chances here in the US.
Re:Please. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Please. (Score:3, Interesting)
Exactly... If we were all willing to take $12 an hour, they wouldn't need to ship jobs elsewhere.
For a less drastic solution, try moving to the midwest. Although we have seen the effects of the recession, there isn't the same level of competition here as on the coast. The pay is a little lower on average, but you can b
Re:Please. (Score:4, Insightful)
1) That's exactly what the Indians do when they come here.
2) If you were willing to work for 12 dollars domestically then you wouldn't have to go to India at all. You could probably get away with 20. That's the real solution. Lower the cost of living, and live a less luxurious lifestyle. That's competative capitalism for you. Whether you choose to be competative is your business.
Re:Please. (Score:3, Funny)
Did anyone else search? (Score:3, Informative)
So, I can get a job in India - but I don't have to go there?
Sounds like this article was posted by a headhunter.
Re:Did anyone else search? (Score:4, Funny)
Well, technically Philadelphia and Illinois were annexed by Canada. Canada, India, the UK, and Australia then reconstituted the British Empire. They're new currency is the RupeePoundDollar.
*rimshot*
1800's Flashback (Score:3, Insightful)
Are we seeing a mini-exodus that signals that India is now the forerunner for the place of opportunity and a chance for success?
I think at some point the outsourcing needs to be regulated or even curbed back. I think also there should be a public list of companies that have outsourced to any foreign land and how many American jobs were lost because of it. I understand these are highly opinionated, but come on, we are cannabalizing ourselves.
Re:1800's Flashback (Score:4, Insightful)
My basest impression of this comment is that it is a big load of crap. I know well educated people who can't find a job or who were layed off. Thank goodness that most employers allow you to find new departments to work in. Even still, I don't think more education and research are part of the solution. My impression of tech jobs, is that you usually have to go to school your whole life to keep current.
Also, I never once believed that this "tech thing" was America's private preserve. However, how many EU countries are outsourcing to India? No, America's private preserve seems to be outsourcing to lower wage countries, while the news often puts a positive spin on it. The question that pops back into my mind is the one that every laid off/fired employee has, "Who's going to pay for all their products if nobody can afford them, and how am I going to live off of a highly reduced salary?"
as for that last part of the statement about a whole new cycle of innovation...and we'll both win. Yeah, I think that's a load....by both win, he means, India will win because they can undercut american salaries by far.
I think at some point the outsourcing needs to be regulated or even curbed back. I think also there should be a public list of companies that have outsourced to any foreign land and how many American jobs were lost because of it.
I agree, outsourcing should be regulated. It not only hurts the American economy, but it hurts many foreign countries as well. Nike, comes to my mind first. Mainly because they are notorious for their phillipines, slave labor like conditions. I think the first stipulation would be that any US business has to pay the US minimum wage to overseas employees. Plus, they have to have livable working conditions, complete with breaks. Bush is supposed to be working on new jobs for the unemployed, but I think most of those are going to be minimum wage jobs, and you know how those with a tech degree from college want to work at register. Nevermind the fact that we worked hard, sleepless nights to get away from that thing.
Just My Luck... (Score:5, Funny)
I'd arrive in Bombay only to discover they've started outsourcing. To some real hellhole. Like Antarctica. Or Detroit.
Cheap jobs (Score:3, Funny)
Meh (Score:3, Insightful)
I see no benefit to uprooting my entire life to go to India so I can write code for so little money, when I can get a temp job here that will pay the rent while I'm submitting resumes and waiting to land a job in IT in the US.
But that's just me.
Note this is another bubble! (Score:5, Interesting)
So, if you plan to go to India, remember to save for the return ticket...
We need to start taxing companies who do this. (Score:3, Insightful)
I personally think (in my opinion) that's a wonderful idea. Maybe companies would think twice and start giving jobs back to those unemployed.
After all, you could pay someone from India $5 less an hour to do it, but.. you'll end up paying that back in taxes, so you won't really save much.
Re:We need to start taxing companies who do this. (Score:3, Insightful)
Chances are, that candidate is John Kerry. His wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, is the owner of (or one of the owners of) the Heinz Ketchup company... which has 57 factories, out of 79 total, overseas. Ironic, really, that the Heinz 57 Ketchup company has
Robert Cringely (Score:5, Interesting)
Check it out, it's a good read.
Excerpt: "So I went on the web to see how easy it would be to emigrate to India. I found NOTHING. I called the Indian Embassy in Washington, DC and asked how I could emigrate to India. They didn't know what I was talking about. What the Indian Embassy was prepared to discuss was how my U.S. employer might transfer me to India for some period of time. I told them PBS had no such expansion plans to my knowledge, though they might make an exception just for me. They were also willing to discuss how I might go to India as an entrepreneur, bringing capital into the country and starting a new business there employing Indians. I told them I had no money to invest. And the idea that I'd just arrive at the Mumbai equivalent of Ellis Island looking for a job, well they found that rather amusing. You can't just move to India it turns out. Someone there has to want you -- no, they have to NEED you -- OR you have to be bringing with you a big suitcase of cash to start a business. Journeyman techies need not apply. It's interesting that Indian immigration policies are more restrictive than U.S. immigration policies. There is no true Indian equivalent, for example, of our H1-B work visas. There is no quid pro quo. But then there is also no wave of U.S. engineers clamoring to move to India."
Re:Robert Cringely (Score:5, Informative)
The H1B work cvisa is just that - a work visa. You *need* to have a *job* before the *employer* applies for a H1B on your behalf. Learn how the system works before digging up crap on the Net.
Friedman on India (Score:3, Interesting)
Some Thoughts.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Another solution? (Score:3, Insightful)
Instead, he looked at what they would pay an Indian contractor including costs of working with him overseas ($42,000) and hired people locally, like college graduates, to do the work instead. So granted, some poor programmer making $65,000 is out of a job, but at least that job stayed in the USA and went to some college graduate.
Hopefully this will be the trend, I don't like the fact that everyone in IT is going to be looking at a pay cut, but it's better than losing all our jobs/productivity to India.
$.02
Overblown Hysteria (Score:3, Insightful)
Right off the bat, this is wrong. The number of jobs being currently outsourced is fairly miniscule in comparison to the total number of jobs in the US. Somehwere less than a million jobs have gone overseas in a workforce of 130 million.
It's weird how slashdot is so pro-freedom, yet so against free markets and free trade when it can potentially affect them negatively. In the end, this outsourcing will only make the US a more efficient workforce and benefit all consumers.
Re:Overblown Hysteria (Score:3, Insightful)
Your point about jobs being outsourced is ill-informed at best, asinine at worst. When we count unemployment "leaps" in tenths of a percent, losing almost a full percentage point (1m/130m =
Who benefits from moving jobs overseas? Those who own the companies. Before you start in with the tired "well, buy stock, and then you'll get rich too," (a) do you have ANY idea how much stock you have to own in order to live off the dividends? (b
And when the market in India is saturated... (Score:4, Informative)
Seriously, though, this seems like a bad idea. Someone above mentioned the earnings differential. Sure, you'll be okay in India, but you'll have nothing if you come back stateside. Also, it seems like bad news to go where
a) there are already tons of hard-working programmers readily available from pretty good (and more importantly, rigorous) schools like the various IIT's in India and
b) the jobs are right now (what happens if India realy DOES get saturated?).
I do like the idea of simply cutting people's wages here and hiring domestic workers. I know if I were at risk of being laid off, I'd be willing to take a sizable paycut to avoid unemployment.
Great... (Score:3, Funny)
"Someone set us up the Bombay"
Moving back makes sense (Score:4, Informative)
They had a lot of pressure from their parents and family to return and the availability of jobs finally convinced them.
In addition, to the higher standard of living in Indian, they had the opportunity to buy a house (impossible in Britain on their wages) and a family. One of the fellows had an arranged marriage waiting for him when he returned.
These fellows are not software sweat-shop or call-center detritus. They are gifted database developers who left Britain to return to India. They were a real asset to the company.
This country made it difficult for them to stay and the change in Indian economy made it easy for them to return.
Getting your head around Free Trade (Score:5, Interesting)
Fighting an epic, intensely violent and brutal struggle against their aristocrats (adverseries so used to victory they had become surprisingly complacent), the proletariat of America carved out a victory, and they did it without abandoning capitalism or resorting to the dangers of political revolution - though we certainly came close on a number of occasions.
We now live in shocking wealth and splendor - a victory for the "common man" made possible through a lively democratic process and a series of reforms that dragged business owners, wailing, kicking and screaming, into the modern age - where the entire standards of what was acceptable in terms of working conditions, wages, and workplace safety changed. Yes, it cost more money. And... what a surprise - with a newly propsperous middle-class, it was also intensely profitable.
Free Trade was thus inevitable. It's the prisoner's dillemma of the modern business.
The issue has proved a bit too subtle for most people to grasp thus far, even as it impoverished America and eviscerated the progress of the middle and lower classes, handing victory after victory to regressive enterprises.
The question free trade raises is simple. Is it cheaper to produce goods and services in a society where the underclass is abused?
Why be surprised?
The American South used to produce cotton so cheap, you'd think it was picked by slaves.
The sad irony is that (with only a little help), we're doing it to ourselves. All I have to do is hold up cheap jeans, and the underclass will skewer itself on its own greed, happily selling themselves out to save money at the cash register, never wondering about the hidden costs of trade without policy, never quite realizing that they had just bought back into laissez faire capitalism.
And yes, when you admit that national boundaries can contain arbitrary laws but not trade, that is exactly what you just returned to. The fleet, famously, travels as fast as its slowest ship.
In America, when we legislated ourselves a decent life, we made it impossible to compete with those who lived indecent ones.
Of course, we shouldn't have to compete with them.
The logical extension is to ask a farm worker to find a job in a field full of slaves. His value is reduced to nothing.
"But Slavery is Illegal!" the farmworker shouts. "Not in Namibia," the slaves reply.
Free Trade is a code word. It stands for the elimination of the 1st world's gains for its ordinary people - by forcing them to compete with what they are bound to lose against: the economies of worker abuse.
Its proponents depend on the American population's ignorance of the issues. You can talk around it in circles with most people, while all the time they have carefully insulated themselves from the basic issue at hand:
Is it OK if I break the law, as long as I do it out of your sight? To people you don't care about? Maybe people in another country?
Free Trade is supposed to reduce the importance of nations and bring about the ascendance of a global community. And it has! The American Working Class is no longer in America. They are in India, China, and Indonesia! Mexico, and Costa Rica, and Guatemala! They are in Afghanistan, growing our opium, and in Iraq, pumping our oil.
So I welcome you all, prosperous last descendants of the old 1st world dream, back into the world you created.
Welcome to India. I hope they really do let you go. Just don't be surprised when you realize it's a one-way trip.
Re:Getting your head around Free Trade (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do they pay less? Because the goods and services that those well-paid programmers consume are made by a poverty-stricken people who are abused.
There's no denying that this is good for India, but let's keep looking at the bigger picture.
Hurry up and learn your japanese too! (Score:4, Funny)
You Thought Globalisation Was For You? (Score:4, Insightful)
And if you think it's bad now, you aint seen nothing yet.
You did, and are voting for the chaps that aren't just allowing this to happen but are actively working toward it. You want it to stop? Start questioning your candidates as to their position on out-sourcing. Ask them what their position is on what amounts to selling off the IT industry in persuit of short-term gain. Ask them what they intend to do once the process of shipping your IT industry over-seas is complete and any competative edge you once had is lost.
But, but, but the Indian deserves to work too! Absolutely they do. The European and the North American also deserve to yield return on the industries nurtured in those societies. The IT industry did not pop out of the ether, and it was not forged solely on the back of private enterprise, it was built from a wide variety of national as well as private resource.
You are responsible for allowing this to happen when you allow your political leaders to persue their own business interests unchecked.
Can't stop globalization (Score:5, Insightful)
Used to be, the cost of information flow was expensive. If you manufactured doohickeys in Dallas, you had your customer support staff located in Dallas. With cheap communications, you can locate your CSR's anywhere, or everywhere -- to save a few pennies on every doohickey you make, which allows you to stay competitive against all the other (foreign and domestic) doohickey makers.
The free market is now global. Can't stop globalization in a free market. Don't want a free market? Try Cuba.
Yes, *tiny* problem (Score:5, Insightful)
The only way you'll have a standard of living that's above what we'd consider the poverty line here (structurally sound accomodation, clean water, decent food, minimal health care) is if you get a managerial role. Indian programmers simply aren't paid that well, even relative to Indian living costs. They don't live in nice houses, they don't drive cars, they don't aspire to buying boats and retiring early. They basically aspire to not leaving debts for their children. That's why you see so many of them over here.
Now, if you're quick, you will be able to land one of those management/consulting roles. Now, next question: how long are you going to be able to keep it? Are you really skilled enough to keep ahead of a bunch of talented, enthusiastic - and, not insignificantly - native Indians?
Bonus point question: during any job reshuffle, will you be the last to go, or the first to go?
Extra credit question: when you get tired of chasing jobs that pay well enough to pay for health cover and want to move back to the US, will your period of low wages negatively impact your ability to buy your way back into the US property and financing markets? Think carefully about your answer.
Oh! Please.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Think about this, all these software engg you see or hear about in India do not take for granted that their jobs will stay and hold for the rest of their lives. And you, God forbid!, who lives in a Capitalist community believes having a well paid job is a privilege??? I hate Corporate America, their lobbyists and the politicians who would jump in to bed with the lot if they could top their coffers, but at the same time I pity the arrogance of people who feel that its beneath them to get out of this country and look for better jobs, better wages and a better life elsewhere in the world. Yes, you might have to cut your ties for a while, you may have to sell or stash everything you got for a while, yes you might have to get new friends for a while, just imagine what you would lose out if you were to stay inside your little coccoon for the rest of your life, with out being exposed to the different people,cultures,life styles,sports out there that you didnt know about?
I have been in US for the last five years of my life and I have seen and experienced more than I could ever bargain for and I have been better off for the most. I found new friends, people who I would have otherwise never find, I found a life which was better in some ways that I could have back in India, and I found slashdot. So yes, I am better off, in my own ways.
So, get off that pedestal and start seeing the world with a whole different perspective. Learn that life and people exist outside your community. And while you are at it, get a job somewhere else in the world and find out why everyone else think American's (atleast some) are so oblivious to the rest of the world and what they think. Good luck!
can't get a date? (Score:5, Funny)
If that doesn't motivate you, I don't know what will...
--
An Indian Perspective...If you don't mind... (Score:4, Interesting)
the 'secret' to India's success (Score:4, Insightful)
All this blather obout how much smarter the Indians are is like the Japanese guy in 'Black Rain' telling Michael Douglas that 'we will own America in 10 years'. Its just bragging based on a temporary bubble. Just after that movie the Japanese economy collapsed and hasn't really recovered completely in over 15 years.
All that said, the only answer for Americans is to do what we did in the 80's/early 90's against Japan. Become more competitive. Unions, tariffs, sanctions will just kill the American IT industry and make everything more expensive in the US. We have to get off our butts and figure out how to compete.
Re:the 'secret' to India's success (Score:4, Insightful)
What an excellent deal! (Score:5, Insightful)
- give up your home
- move away from your friends
- move away from your extended family
- move your family away from their family and
their friends
- move to a foriegn culture in the 3rd world
- accept a lower standard of living
- take a cut in pay
All so billionaires and millionaires can have a tiny bit more money
What a special deal!
Steve
Re:America is Doomed (Score:5, Funny)
I couldn't agree more!
Re:No thanks (Score:3, Insightful)
Future generations are going to need jobs more so than our own, and what are they supposed to do? Even Lou Dobbs (conservative and pro business) has realized this and started trying to fight it.
Why not defend America? People run ramshod over it all the time,
Re:Indian culture. (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, but they combine to form Devastator, the most powerful Ind.. er.. Decept.. oh, wait, wrong train of thought.
Re:To all Americans (Score:3, Insightful)
Many people do not have that option. They have to make their meager wages last enough to live on. Why do you think WalMart does so well?
Re:Blown out of proportion. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Blown out of proportion. (Score:3, Interesting)
However, I know that my compnay has been laying people off over the past couple years, declining to hire locally, and now employs ~200 people in Bangalore, as well as a bunch in the Phillipines. And we're not a huge company...
5000 my ass.
Re:Outsourcing (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you telling me people with Masters degrees in CS and EE need to be trained?
Do you mean to tell me that the workers who have had to train their replacements in order to receive severance pay were not skilled?
No one who is in high tech thinks that they are "entitled" to their job. We know that a requirement of the job is keeping up with new software, hardware, protocols, etc.
It is immoral to bring foreigner in any country to replace native workers. I find it disturbing that the companies then turn around and blame education, and basically ask for subsidies to do something with all the workers that they have displaced.
We are trained. We are experienced. We are tired of the excuses for "loosing" (talk about needing to be retrained!) our jobs to foreigners on our soil and in other countries. The problem is not lack of education or skills, the problem is that American high tech workers are not being allowed to compete for these jobs.
Let us compete. Force American companies to play by the rules when it comes to H-1B and L-1 visas. Level the playing field, and then less jobs will flow overseas. ginaminks.com/blog [ginaminks.com]
Re:Further evidence Friedman smokes the good stuff (Score:5, Interesting)