SVG And The Free Desktop(s) 337
A user writes "Christian Schaller has written an interesting article on SVG's current and possible uses on the GNU/Linux desktop. Though the article concentrates mostly on GNOME, it does mention the excellent work the KDE developers have been doing with KSVG, and refers to the upcoming SVG support in Mozilla too."
SGI (Score:4, Informative)
Re:SGI (Score:2)
One interesting thing is that 4DWM recently got antialiasing on the SVG icons, which looks pretty sweet.
Other implementation (Score:3, Funny)
Around 1994 or so I had an updated version of this working. It was a major revision, so it was called SVGA.
Re:SGI (Score:2)
Vector graphics came home in 1983 (Score:3, Insightful)
I wonder... could those games be made to run under SVG... with frame buffering....
Re:SGI (Score:2)
stupid acronyms (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:stupid acronyms (Score:2)
I wouldn't.
S
Re:stupid acronyms (Score:3, Informative)
Re:stupid acronyms (Score:5, Funny)
You must be new here. This is /. It it's not an acronym, it's not worth mentioning.
Re:stupid acronyms (Score:3, Informative)
For those of you unfamiliar with SVG, it is a file format for scalable vector graphics
Re:stupid acronyms (Score:4, Interesting)
Yay SVG! (Score:2)
At least until longhorn...
Re:Yay SVG! (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm sure they'll go out of their way to make it difficult to convert between their screwy system and the W3 standard. Hopefully someone will hack out a converter. And this IS important, for companies that don't want to rewrite all their vector graphics to port something t
Mozilla's native svg support project (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Mozilla's native svg support project (Score:2)
SVG+SMIL = Flash; Mozilla Needs SMIL! (Score:3, Informative)
SVG is very useful on its own, but having an open alternative to Flash would be even better. SMIL [w3.org], a W3C Recommended standard for adding timing and animation to things like SVG and XHTML, is that alternative.
The Mozilla team has (wrongly, IMO) decided [mozilla.org] to leave full SMIL implementation to plugins. However, the W3C has designated a subset of the SMIL 2.0 modules [w3.org] as being suitable for integration with XHTML, which is obviously functionality that belongs in the browser and is already available in IE6.
To kee
"Links to Bugzilla from Slashdot are disabled" (Score:3, Informative)
Does anybody know why Bugzilla does this?
JAADEA (Score:4, Funny)
if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:5, Informative)
SVG replaces PDF (Acrobat format). SVG plus SMIL replaces SWF (Flash format), as replacing SWF for use in animated presentations such as this [rmitz.org] or this [badgerbadgerbadger.com] needs audio and animation.
Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:5, Informative)
That's a pretty fair summary, although SVG can be animated [w3.org] without SMIL, using the animation elements. If you add javascript and DOM into the mix you can get interactive applications, like FOAFNaut [foafnaut.org].
Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:4, Interesting)
Now why would PDF need replacement?
I bet any PDF page will have a smaller file size and better performance than the SVG equivalent.
Not to mention EPS.
Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it doesn't.
PDF (Portable Document Format) replaced PostScript as a page description language. Basically describing a printed page. PDF (and PS) both support vector graphics.
Whereas SVG is only a vector graphics format, it does not handle page layout and the other things required for printed page description.
If anything SVG replaces EPS (Encapsulated PostScript), which is the postscript language applied to an independent graphics object, as opposed to an actual printed page.
Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:2)
Well, for one, obviously the author of badgerbadgerbadger.com has access to some seriously high quality psychodelic drugs. If you listen closesly though, you'll notice that the audio never says the word badger. The "badger" part of the song is just a rythmic sound. But you're staring at badgers, and you're at badgerbadgerbadger.com, so your mind convinces you that it must be saying badger.
Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:2)
PDF also support other functionality, such as forms and embedded files. SVG does a lot of what PDF does, but I really hope it doesn't become a PDF replacement, since a complete replacement would require such features.
Here we go again! (Score:3, Insightful)
Dude, the web is full of badly designed websites written in HTML. Is HTML a bad standard?
Flash is capable of creating compact little applications, parsing XML from a data source, playing video, and doing a million other things that are made possible by the ubiquitous Flash player. We've moved on from the days of 'skip intro.' I wish the
Sheesh!
Re:Here we go again! (Score:2)
No, but is Flash actually a standard? Erm... no. It's propietary. I personally always click intro still and generally once I've installed mozilla I never bother getting the Flash plugin because Flash has yet to enhance a website rather than just getting in the way of using it in my opinion.
Re:Here we go again! (Score:3, Informative)
FUD.
The flash format [openswf.org] has been documented and thus "open" since 1998.
S
Re:Here we go again! (Score:2)
We've moved on from the days of 'skip intro.'
Unfortunately, we moved into the days of 'huge annoying animated advertisement that cannot be skipped' (unless by disabling the Flash plugin). Not really an improvement in my opinion.
JP
Re:if (SVG = Flash) .... (Score:2, Insightful)
Considering that any SVG support will probably be in browsers themselves, not plugins, SVG-menus and animations and the like could gracefully degrade, and would work seamlessly with rest of the UI instead of stealing the show.
Scalable graphics fill a niche (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Scalable graphics fill a niche (Score:2)
SVG is the best thing ever! (Score:5, Interesting)
SVG is finding its way into everything, browsers, icons, etc. I forsee a world where SVG is dominant and regular pixel based images are seen as WAV files as in comparison to MIDI.
As a matter of fact that is a good analogy: MIDI vs WAV. One is intrections on how to draw the other is the final outcome.
Imagine how many songs you could fit on a CD if it were midi, with human voice parameters. Ignoring the vocals, you'd get thousands of songs on a CD.
SVG also fixes the pixelation issue, whenyou try to stretch and compress the image. As a matter of fact, do that once with a regualr image and you're working with crap. You can shrink SVG blow it up, and rotate without any kind of distortion.
It is kind of suprising it took us this long to get a cross-platform standard on how to specify how to draw shapes! But it is a good thing.
I don't think computers will ever be the same once SVG takes off.
Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (Score:2, Informative)
MIDI cannot rival the quality of sampled sound unless the sound being sampled was produced by a MIDI-like process.
SVG is good for many image applications because the sampled forms are produced through an SVG-like process.
Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (Addendum) (Score:5, Interesting)
I was more referring about the costs to a computer of using them.
However if you do compare SVG icons to Bit-map icons, visually, the SVG icon will not only be simpler, and usually just as apealing.
Look at the SVG icon sets referenced and the background of Slax (Slackware's LiveCD) The #1 comment is "aww he's so cute". Clearly, the visual accptance is much higher to the human eye than MIDI's acceptance to the human ear.
MIDI could be re-invented to include wavelets which are a base representation of a voice (instrument or human) then define the mathmatical operations. You'd get a 99% facimilie that would probably pass as good as a low-quality MP3 at 1/0th the size.
Example (as SVG):
Now human voices are harder, but once downloaded you could just download the contents of the tree.
You could also hear brittney sing "Opps.." in her original voice or her aged voice, which would be interesting. Or even make Christina Agulera sing Spear's songs.
If you're seeing the potential of re-defining MIDI like that, surely you can see hwo awesome SVG is...
Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (Addendum) (Code) (Score:4, Funny)
He he... (Score:2)
Somethings are just better left alone.
Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (Score:2)
Music notes have a pitch and duration. Instruments have 'tombre' which is the squigglies on a regular wave form that make a violin sound like a violin and a piano sounds like a piano.
If you could encode the tombre, then it is a small mathmatical transform away from any pitch.
Then it is only a matter of assembling "tombre" files (aka voices) Then specifying their use.
Traditional MIDI was designed
Re:SVG is the best thing ever! (Score:2)
Re:SVG is the best thing ever!-Wonderworks. (Score:2)
Vector graphics on the dekstop (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Vector graphics on the dekstop (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Vector graphics on the dekstop (Score:5, Interesting)
You have a very interesting point there. I think having one menu with all programs in it is a Good Thing, but I strongly believe GNOME and KDE have it because Windows has it. I guess the idea is to make the system accessible to switchers by cloning the behavior, but I do not see that as the right approach. I believe in making a better system for those who choose to use it.
I don't care how many people use an open source OS and whether or not Fred Foobar would switch if we do or don't have the same buttons on our windows in the same places. If you do care about market share, you should realize that you can't beat MicroSoft by cloning them - they will always stay ahead of you. Even if you have higher quality and stability and useful features, people are going to complain that the VBScript in some webpage doesn't work or they can't open their Excel database; you just can't convert them all.
Meanwhile, I think we should innovate. Let's take advantage of Reiser4 and develop a set of utilities to make the most of extended attributes. Let's work on ZeroConf and IPv6, making our systems ready for painless networking. Let's integrate the shell and the programming language, so we can use functions from shared libraries in the shell and have sudo-like access control for function calls (no more running the whole program as r00t because it needs to do one priviliged thing). Or anything else you come up with.
Re:Vector graphics on the dekstop (Score:2, Interesting)
Sure as hell you can beat Microsoft by cloning their interface. People aren't leaving Windows because KDE or Gnome are so pretty [IMHO, they have gone from a depressing barebone ugliness to a godawful all-colorful all-curvy kindergarten look, but that's just me] but because the computer becomes more stable, they feel they have control over the system, security improves
Re:Vector graphics on the dekstop (Score:3, Interesting)
That's exactly what I meant: people switch from Windows not because they want a partial implem
my start menu (Score:3, Funny)
Woo, Open Standards (Score:3, Insightful)
I work at the Center for Teaching, Learning Technology at the university I am enrolled at. I am currently putting together a web-based document management system that is built around XML, and after seeing how much more powerful these open standards can be (especially, when you start looking at all the wonderful concepts that augment XML -- XSL, XPATH, XSL:FO, and the like).
We used to put together all of our documentation for workshops and whatnot using MS Word, and then later switched to InDesign for the sake of having more control over the layout. The new web-based system means we lost some control over the layout of these documents, but the amount of time we've saved and the flexibility we've gained from using it is worth more than its weight in gold (all 2mb worth -- if that, even)
What's frightening, however, is to see these products like MS Word and others potentially offering the option to export to a more open format, like XML. Ever tried reading through MS Word generated HTML? It's almost a fun task, and I hate to think of the possibilty of having to read through MS Word generated XML... eep!
Sweet... Tempest and Qix on my desktop... (Score:2)
Nice work!
Umm... and I can... um...
I can play asteroids! Yeah! That's great too!
Need SVG help? (Score:5, Informative)
SVG looks fun (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:SVG looks fun (Score:4, Interesting)
Full disclosure, I did a SVG tileset for GNOME Mahjongg [rahga.com]... To make a rectangle that fits your description, just add <rect x="0" y="0" width="50" height="50" fill="#0000FF" stroke-width="5">
As far as XML goes, I can't even begin to tell you how wonderful xmllint is in what I do with SVG, how nice it is to be able to automate the creation of certain SVGs with perl scripts, and the aid provided by typical tools such as sed. Most of us have not yet even started to exploit CSS. Anyway, doing the same in a non-xml format, to me, would be a nightmare.
Re:SVG looks fun (Score:2)
Great, now we just need an affordable app for it (Score:2)
Downside is it costs ~$400. A bit pricey for me to goof off with. Thankfully there's
Inkscape/sodipodi, but there's no animation support. It's mainly for static images.
SVG is quite powerful and I can't wait until the day someone goes overboard and makes a FPS out of it(which would be an interesting test of Adobe's SVG plugin). C'mon widespread adoption go go go.
Inkscape & Animation (Score:3, Interesting)
Well... for Inkscape [inkscape.org] I know that it's high up on the lists for some of the developers, and several of them are actually investigating various factors now.
Animation and scripting support are two things that may go in hand-in-hand, but definitely are being worked on. Of course, since it's open source, there's no hard timeline for supporti
Re:Inkscape & Animation (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not expecting to see any serious movement on animation for another few quarters yet (there's still some serious design work to do in that area), but OTOH my colleagues keep surprising me, so you never know... ^_^
Best viewed on a vector display (Score:2, Interesting)
vector display. However, where could you
get a modern vector display nowadays?
They used to sell arcade machines (battlezone)
and game consoles (vectrix) with these
displays.
Re:Best viewed on a vector display (Score:5, Informative)
A few posts have commented that vector-displays would be good to use with SVG-based desktops. They're probably all joking, because there is no such thing as a modern vector-graphics display, and if it did exist, it would be inapplicable.
Vector displays can only draw the actual vectors, which are just straight lines. Vector graphics consist of more than just vectors, and actually includes a full set of primitives whose positions are merely defined by vectors.
Even a simple filled triangle (surely one of the most common elements of existing SVG files) is beyond the capability of a vector display, unless it emulated a raster display to draw the shape as a series of scanlines.
Yes! Finally. Let's create an SVG desktop... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yes! Finally. Let's create an SVG desktop... (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not sure why so many people think that SVG is slow. It doesn't have to be, even without hardware acceleration. I've done tests of librsvg vs. libpng:
Given a SVG image $s. Transform it into a PNG image $p using librsvg, Batik, or something similar. Run "gdk_pixbuf_new_from_file()" on both $p and $s. This will turn $s and $p into identical RGBA images. Time this operation. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Generally, it is no slower (if not faster!) to render $s than $p. This surprised me and quieted many "Vector graphics are too slow for the desktop" pundits.
Of course, once you start using some of the more advanced features (like certain filters), the rendering time is likely to go up. It all depends on what features you use and how you use them.
Cairo (Score:4, Informative)
What makes SVG even cooler is that we have the perfect rendering technology for it: Cairo [cairographics.org]. Cairo renders perfectly stroked and antialiased SVG for a variety of backends including bitmaps, PostScript, and X11.
Hopefully the SVG projects will either adopt the existing Cairo SVG code or use the Cairo rendering code as a backend for their SVG libraries.
Re:RTWFA (Score:2)
As you so eloquently pointed out, I managed to miss the Cairo paragraph in the main article. My apologies.
I'll be quite interested to understand the difficulties in using Cairo for SVG rendering referred to in the original article. I'll have to admit to being a bit puzzled, having watched Cairo do a nice job of rendering SVG in various places.
Again, thanks very much for your prompt correction! I only wish that you had identifi
Music notation and SVG? (Score:3, Interesting)
Finally, I can resurrect my vector monitor! (Score:3, Funny)
Why Vector Graphics matter (Score:5, Informative)
The big problem is that our current screens are just not good enough. Monitors rarely get over 150dpi, whereas even very old laser printers get 300dpi. On most screens, you can still see the individual dots. This is why zooming in and out like I described above wouldn't work on current hardware: too much detail is lost when the zoomed out desktop is rasterized to the screen. It would be only good for previewing the windows (like Apple's Expose), not for actually working with them. Note that in the area where these issues matters the most, text and font display, there has been a great amount of research and clever solutions to work around this. If (when?) display technology finally catches up, the entire windows system will be arbitrarily scaled with good quality, not just the fonts. Let's hope that when the hardware get's good enough, the software to utilize it will already be in place.
Re:Why Vector Graphics matter (Score:2)
Except that vector terminals pre-date character terminals (many of the first video games like "Asteroids" used nothing but vector graphics). We've simply closed the loop.
-JS
Re:Why Vector Graphics matter (Score:4, Interesting)
1280x1024 (~96 dpi), I can't see individual pixels as dinguished from diagonally adjacent pixels unless I'm at half my normal viewing distance for the monitor. For printed text, you generally hold the book closer to your face, so you want better resolution.
I think that the relation will actually go the other direction; when you can size windows to fit what you're doing, there will be more call for being able to resolve details in small windows, and therefore call for better monitors. As it is, increasing a monitor's resolution, as you said, makes everything smaller and harder to see, so people wouldn't run their monitors at higher resolutions even if they were available.
About Time! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if we can just get the Xwindows folks on board! When I say "12-point type", I mean a height of 6 lines per inch, not 12 pixels (enormous on the cellphone; invisible on the workstation).
SVG - some obscure features (Score:4, Informative)
The Adobe SVG provides the user a getURL() (or similar named) method which allows the browser to read information from the server or any other arbitary url on the web without any form submits of page refreshes.
This is useful, for instance, to have a stock exchange ticker which continuosly reads data from a stock exchange server and renders a graph of the values on the screen - without requiring the browser to refresh.
Another interesting aspect of SVG is that it can be compressed using gzip and so a fairly complex svg image could still be in a very small file. The data that is passed into the SVG could also be compressed.
rsvg plugin? (Score:2)
SVG in Mozilla conflicts with desktop environments (Score:2, Informative)
Mozilla uses a hacked-up libsvg that interferes with other programs. So, SVG is turned off in Debian Mozilla packages, for instance [debian.org].
Re:no one wants it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:no one wants it (Score:5, Funny)
Famous Last Web Development Words
Re:no one wants it (Score:2, Informative)
Two points:
No one wants it? (Score:5, Insightful)
SVG is being used almost everywhere I look. Icons are just the beginning.
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:2)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:2, Interesting)
But XML does give you plenty of potential hiding places for data (e.g. white-space)
Microsoft would (Score:2, Funny)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:2)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:3, Informative)
But the encrypted data itself, after stripping the header and de-base64ing it, just looks like random binary noise.
If your recipient knew what encryption algorithm you were going to use to encrypt, you
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:SVG & Steganogrpahy? (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, you could embed any data (including scripts), and with a ECMAScript capable renderer, even use it to generate the image (for graphs etc).
That's not what steganography is, though. I suggest you review what steganography is [wikipedia.org].
A big blob of <[CDATA[ would stick out like a sore thumb in an SVG. It's best to stick with embedding int Tiffs and Wavs.
You're trolling, but I'll bite (Score:4, Informative)
Not exactly. Linux is the kernel, X Windows is the GUI, and KDE (or GNOME) is the Desktop Environment. The whole package together is called GNU/Linux, but most people just call it Linux. I sidestep the whole GNU/Linux vs. Linux debate by just calling it Mandrake or Debian or Redhat, but that's just me.
So, in summary:
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
as a windowmanager and no additional "desktop"
bloat means that I don't have a desktop
or a full GNU/Linux installation?
That is retarded.
I would suggest that GNU/Linux is (generally)
everything in your list up and including to Xwindows and some windowmanager. The desktop
stuff like KDE and GNOME are just further enhancements on top of the windowmanager.
But they should "never" be considered an
essential part of a GNU/Linux system.
Re:You're trolling, but I'll bite (Score:4, Informative)
> KDE or GNOME -> the desktop environment
There's no such thing as X Windows, it's either X, X11 or the X Window System. And although most implementations ship with a primitive UI (twm and some Xlib apps), nobody actually uses this as their UI. These days, an X implementation like XFree86 is mostly used as hardware driver and low level drawing engine for toolkit writers. The actual UI is a DE like KDE, Gnome, or a WM like blackbox, Windowmaker.
Re:You're trolling, but I'll bite (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux
Re:You're trolling, but I'll bite (Score:4, Informative)
Nitpicking the nitpick (Score:2)
Who fucking cares?
Surely we have better things to concentrate our energy on than arguing over a naming scheme when referring to the kernel or to userspace. I think newbies are turned off from our community for this reason, among others.
They're going to just call it Linux. I don't see why that's a problem whatsoever. This isn't about stroking egos so that everyone's damn project gets named in reference. "GNU/XFree86/GNOME/Linux" sucks.
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, I do know it was a troll.
Mod parent down! (Score:2)
Re:Here's a real bleeding-edge idea.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The best way to do this is with vector based graphics, which is what SVG is.
Re:wave of the future (Score:3, Informative)
Re:wave of the future (Score:3, Insightful)
But that only solves part of the problem, and isn't enough to make XML efficient for an integral part of interactive computer systems (where speed is crucial).
Normal XML is already slower than a binary format, because you must parse through the whole thing to reach the middle (linear time) versus jumping to an offset in the file (constant time). Adding compression to the mix makes that even worse, as now you've got
Re:wave of the future (Score:3, Informative)
Traversing down into the tree is still going to be logarithmic time, at best -- in most real applications you will have to visit the parent nodes to get relevent context information. Unless you've got an index of each node's children in there, you'll still have to resort to some linear scanning...
That's assuming you work directly with the data in serialized form, though, which is not generally a realistic ass
Re:wave of the future (Score:3, Interesting)
You'll notice it's the RPC folks who are most interested in a binary XML representation.
Re:wave of the future (Score:3, Informative)
The human readable part of xml is a myth. It is just structured data. The most common way to represent this data happens to be very verbose unicode formatted text. Ebxml can be seen as a binary equivalent representation of this data. Instead of the verbose tags and the tedious brackets, whitespace, comments, etc a few bits are used as symbols for ta