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Sailing the Wine Dark Sea 232

Posted by timothy from the love-those-little-grape-leaf-tapas dept.
Ursus Maximus writes "'Sailing' is a gentle and easily readable re-introduction to Greek civilization and culture, with numerous parallels and lessons drawn to our own times by the astute author. Cahill has a real knack for this sort of thing, as he has amply demonstrated in three previous volumes in his "Hinges of History" series. I was introduced to his work in his first volume in the series, 'How the Irish Saved Civilization,' and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Cahill aims to give us a well rounded glimpse into the way the ancient Greeks lived, saw the world, and in fact into the whole of Greek experience. He does this in an idiosyncratic way that will please neither academics nor purists, but which does allow one to taste and smell the Greeks' cultural milieu, and not just to cogitate about it. But cogitate you will, as Cahill gives enough food for thought as post modern man is likely to be able to bear." Read on for the rest of Ursus Maximus' review.
Sailing the Wine Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Mattered
author Thomas Cahill
pages 304
publisher Doubleday
rating Excellent, 5 stars
reviewer Ursus Maximus
ISBN 0385495536
summary This book explores the Greek contribution to Western Civilization

According to Cahill, the Greeks' invention of the alphabet (or refinement of the Phoenician alphabet) into a potent intellectual tool was the beginning and the heart of their cultural expansion. Perhaps, in our own time, the arrival of computer technology and the web carries a similar promise, if only we can tease as much innovation from the web as the Greeks did from the alphabet.

But it is hard to consign the Greeks' invention of democracy (a Greek word meaning "rule of the people") to second place, even to so fine a contender as the alphabet itself. For the Greek city-state of Athens truly did refine direct democracy and their achievement can be seen as the bedrock and foundation of Western Europe's later development of democracy, and especially of the American experiment in indirect and representational democracy.

Yet of equally revolutionary significance is the Greek invention of total warfare, with highly organized militaries made up of hoplite soldiers and shrewd, calculating generals. This Greek way of warfare has been the foundation of the Western way of war ever since, right down to and including our current American military dominance of the planet. Cahill cites extensively from the brilliant and influential military historian Victor Davis Hanson and his book "The Autumn of War" to the effect that the western way of total warfare has dominated the planet ever since; and it appears that Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Chaney are well versed in Mr. Hanson's theories, not to mention Greek hubris.

The lessons for the USA in its war on terrorism alone are compelling, if not down right chilling. Central to the cultural echoes provided is a speech from Pericles, ruler of Athens at the beginning of the Peloponnesian War, a mighty struggle that lasted for 30 years, beginning with Athens at the height of its imperial, cultural and financial powers, and ending with Athens defeated and subjected to domination by Sparta and her allies, never again to regain the zenith of her glory and might.

At an annual ceremony honoring and burying the bones of her young war dead after the first year of the 30 years war, Pericles orated about the Greek forefathers, and he sounds a lot like a contemporary American politician:

"...generation after generation in unchanging and unbroken succession, they have, by their hard work and courage, handed down to us a free country... "

This comes from what is by far the longest of the many quotes Cahill intersperses in his book, and it sounds ever so much like George W. Bush. I admire the way the author intersperses these quotes without ever boring the reader. The quotes from such luminaries as Homer, Socrates, Plato and others are absolutely integral to the book and greatly enhance its character. If Pericles' speech above reminds us of Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, so it must also remind us somewhat of our current President's oratory about the War on Terror.

The book is organized around chapters that bring together material in an organic way, not an academic way; with titles like: "The Warrior: How to Fight", "The Wanderer: How to Feel", "The Poet: How to Party", "The Politician and the Playwright: How to Rule", "The Philosopher: How to Think", "The Artist: How to See", and "The Way They Went: Greco-Roman World meets Judeo-Christian".

All in all, this is a quick read, a delightful and thought provoking exercise, and a worthwhile adventure. I highly recommend it. Be forewarned though, you may find yourself wanting to go on and read the other volumes in the series, including "How the Irish Saved Civilization", "The Gifts of the Jews", "The Desire of the Everlasting Hills" (about early Christianity), and the three forthcoming volumes, the next of which is promised to be about how the Romans became Italians. By the time all three future volumes are published, this promises to be a very accessible investigation into the making of the modern world and the impact of its cultural innovations on the sensibilities of the West.

I suspect that Slashdotters of all persuasions will enjoy reading this book; you can read more on related topics on my weblog and web site at http://www.awaretek.com/weblog/

You can purchase Sailing the Wine Dark Sea: Why the Greeks Mattered from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, carefully read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
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Sailing the Wine Dark Sea

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  • Well, duh... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Your_Mom ( 94238 ) <slashdot@@@innismir...net> on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:03PM (#9218924) Homepage
    How the Irish Saved Civilization

    Well, duh. Guinness.

    I mean, what's the point of living in a "Civilization" (If you can call it that) without Guinness?
  • Did anybody else think feta and/or goats and recoil?
    • No, but the Retsina always gives me pause...

      *Shudder*

      =tkk

      • Hmmm, sounds like Buckley's Mixture cough syrup [only-in-canada.com]. It tastes awful (of pine needles, one of the ingredients) but it works!

        • Origins of Retsina (Score:4, Interesting)

          by spun ( 1352 ) <loverevolutionary@@@yahoo...com> on Friday May 21, 2004 @05:27PM (#9220977) Journal
          I lived in Greece for a year, specifically Chania on the island of Crete. The story I heard from the locals about retsina is that it was invented during the time Greece was ruled by the Turks. The Turks, being notorius drunkards (according to my Greek friends.) would confiscate any alcohol the Greeks produced. One patriotic Greek vintner started sealing all his wine casks and skins with pine pitch, to make it taste awful and spite the Turks. Turns out they wouldn't touch the stuff, so the Greeks started drinking it, being the only thing available to them. They eventually learned to love it, or at least claim that they do out of national pride.

  • Rumsfeld and Cheney are more like Alcibiades (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ianscot ( 591483 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:06PM (#9218960)
    Donny Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney make me think mostly of Alcibiades, the young aristocrat whose cheerleading for an expedition against Syracuse eventually sunk a generation of Athenians in a ruinous seige of that city. Without that reckless attempt, Athens had every chance in the Peloponnesian war.

    "Hubris" is the word, though, you'd so right about that.

    • Re:Rumsfeld and Cheney are more like Alcibiades (Score:4, Insightful)

      by FooGoo ( 98336 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:33PM (#9219235)
      Remember the greeks didn't have nukes.
    • What's interesting is that after Alcibiades was humiliated by the loss at Syracuse and exiled from Athens (I believe), he then fought for the Spartans.
    • The expedition was a disaster for Athens, but Alcibiades only came up with the general idea. He wasn't responsible for the disasterous execution of it. The man most responsible for the disaster was Nicias - the leader of the "peace" faction who was put in charge of the expedition. He was unenthusiastic about the whole idea, and constantly hesitated to take decisive action for fear that he would be blamed for any failure. Eventually failure became unavoidable.

      He reminds me most of John F. Kerry. he isn't en
    • Because America was just chugging right along before the Bush administration took over, save for the occasional TERROR ATTACK ON NEW YORK CITY.
    • Athens had every chance in the Peloponnesian war.

      Oh please. Foppish, decadent Athenians, cowering behind their city walls, versus mighty Spartans, trained from early childhood as warriors? The Peloponnesian war was over before it began.
    • It's only a fair comparison if they now change sides several times. Alcibiades betrayed everyone. To do anything comparable, Rumsfeld and Cheney would have to defect to Iraq, then betray them and flee to Russia.

      --Tom
    • Actually, Alcibiades is more like Ahmad Chalibi. How so? Because as you didn't mention, the reason that the Syracuse expidition was so disastrous was that Alcibiades tipped off the Spartans in advance.

      While Alcibiades was sailing toward Syracuse, he and a group of his young cohorts were found guilty (by trial in absentia) of impiety when it was found that they'd been getting drunk and running around cutting the penises off the local shrines of Hermes (no joke). So a ship was sent to fetch Alcibiades and br

  • Wine Dark Sea... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mcSey921 ( 230169 ) <`mcsey' `at' `ymail.com'> on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:07PM (#9218964) Homepage Journal
    I thought Patrick O'Brian [wwnorton.com] had finally gotten his due slashdotting.

  • Cheaper on Amazon (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:08PM (#9218972)
    link [amazon.com]

  • Bear motif? (Score:4, Funny)

    by cthulhubob ( 161144 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:09PM (#9218988) Homepage
    >But cogitate you will, as Cahill gives enough food for thought as post modern man is likely to be able to bear." Read on for the rest of Ursus Maximus' review.

    I understand that man might not be able to "bear" very much, but what of the Ursine among us? Won't somebody think of the bears?!!

  • Greek life and todays society (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jailbrekr ( 73837 ) <jailbrekr@digitaladdiction.net> on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:10PM (#9218998) Homepage
    As an aside, the greeks were the first to articulate and intellectualize homosexuality, as they argued that true love was between two men, a love which is not bound by hormonal urges. You can see the societal adoption of this very same philosophy with gay marriages being approved, and the subsequent tightening of church control over the current "democratic" administration.

    • Re:Greek life and todays society (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Ravagin ( 100668 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @03:01PM (#9219549)
      But it was in a lot of cases structured as a mentor/tutor older man/younger man relationship - not just any two guys goin' at it. While I agree that the Greeks had a much more open mind about homosexuality, and that we as a society should be much more accepting of sexual minorities, I'm hesitant to cling to the Greeks as a perfect model of sexual equality. In most cities, women weren't even citizens.

      And, yeah, fuckin' church, man. ;) Speaking of church and state intersections, dig this [villagevoice.com]. Yeesh.
      • But it was in a lot of cases structured as a mentor/tutor older man/younger man relationship - not just any two guys goin' at it.

        Also, Greek men involved in these relationships often eventually married women and had children, too. You can't really compare ancient Greek homosexual practice with modern gay identity, they are two separate things; although I'd be interested to see if the current book discusses any historical links between the two.

    • Re:Greek life and todays society (Score:4, Informative)

      by abigor ( 540274 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @03:06PM (#9219597)
      Yes, and our cinematic treatment of them often glosses this over in a big way. Witness the new movie "Troy", which totally fails to mention the love affair of Achilles and Patroclus. Instead, Achilles is a totally straight sex god, which is pretty funny.

      Fighting, philosophy lite, a troubled personality, and tons of sex with hot chicks - your standard Hollywood hero, according to "Troy".
    • tightening of church control over the current "democratic" administration

      More like tightening it's sphincter.

      = 9J =

    • Ok, I know this is going to offend someone if not get nailed for this, and I know there are a lot of "homosexuals" who could do a better job of raising kids than some of the deadbeat heterosexuals out there, and there also a lot who care for and respect their partners more than many heterosexual partners do. But, I sill think it's crazy that anyone would want to put a relationship thats defined by ,say, anal sex on the same level as one that's defined by procreation, and also crazy that the government shou
      • Living in a nation where such gay marriage is allowed, my main comment is "no big deal, really".

        For that matter, if it cuts down the competition by taking guys out of the pool (especially ones who can colour coordinate and understand a hair care regimen involving three or more products), then that's all to the good, in my books.

        Further, what's the big deal about procreation? Methinks some of our environmental problems are a consequence of this world having too many people on it now. Is encouraging procrea

  • greeks... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by demonhold ( 735615 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:12PM (#9219026) Journal
    someone once said that the classic Greeks were all about wars and homos... strangely enough, as with most of this kind of wisdom, is quite accurate... now seriously, donna tartt's quasi-quotations aside, i will have still to find passages of such violence and intensity as those found in the Illiad, the descripcions of the dry sun dried plain in front of the city, the way the deaths are described... IMNSHO, I believe their main contribution to our culture is their literature. Western Literature starts with the Illiad and the Oddyssey, and its influence is still felt by us when reading TS Eliot, Cervantes, Pynchon, Goethe, Chaucer... Okay.. well, I will cut it short, cause if I start talking about Lucian of Samotrace, the Alexandrian poets, etc.. etc...

    • Re:greeks... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ninejaguar ( 517729 )
      I believe their main contribution to our culture is their literature.

      Through which we model our own culture and ideas about ourselves. In the Illiad and Odyssey, we see ourselves and who we would like to be and what we should find repugnant. We don't follow the Egyptians, who's ways are rather alien to us now. And, we don't follow the Chinese who's philosophies are often too ephemeral for our gross tastes. We follow the Hellenese because their arts were physically emotional and their sciences were con

  • Comparison not valid (Score:5, Insightful)

    by panurge ( 573432 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:19PM (#9219101)
    The war between Athens and Sparta ( and their client states ) might have had parallels in the Cold War. In which case it's the Soviet Union that had the fate of Athens. But then, history never really repeats itself. We really have no way of knowing what the outcome of the present world political situation will be, whether it results in complete US global supremacy, whether China will take over, or whether the EU will eventually stop bickering, kick out the backwards-dragging UK, and become the next global superpower. The fact that Perikles might sound a bit like Rumsfeld is neither here nor there; there's always a tendency for people in power to become overbearing egotistical windbags who think the sun shines out of their anuses, and it's hardly surprising given the way other people defer to them.

    That off my chest, I will make one observation that was made to me by a serious classicist, someone who has written and commented extensively on Aristophanes: It is almost impossible for a modern person to understand the Greek world-view. We would have to turn off so many things that we know, so many received ideas that are part of our culture, that the effort would be impossible. Forget not only cars, planes and televisions, forget the Americas, the Southern Hemisphere, biology,chemistry, the size of the universe, astronomy, physics, most of mathematics, and almost all of history. Forget, in fact, the existence of other cultures. Then try and imagine what it would be like to be a philosopher.

    • Forget not only cars, planes and televisions, forget the Americas, the Southern Hemisphere, biology,chemistry, the size of the universe, astronomy, physics, most of mathematics, and almost all of history. Forget, in fact, the existence of other cultures. Then try and imagine what it would be like to be a philosopher.

      Wow... a blank sheet... what a dream for a philosopher ;-)

    • Re:Comparison not valid (Score:3, Informative)

      by costas ( 38724 )
      I agree with that, but your list is actually a bit off: biology and chemistry (really, physics before any specialization) was within the knowledge-universe of Classic-age Greeks. I don't believe that framing the differences in terms of technology does that era any justice: technology progresses, slowly or quickly regardless of era.

      What you are missing from your list is that the Classical Greeks really did not have a pre-defined set of morals, i.e. a religion in the modern Western sense (no, the Pantheon d
    • We really have no way of knowing what the outcome of the present world political situation will be, whether it results in complete US global supremacy, whether China will take over,
      We can't know for sure, but one thing is certain: US hegemony it won't be. Sun-Tzu makes it clear that not understanding your enemy leads to certain defeat. Seeing how the US has precious little clue what the rest of the world thinks, the outcome should be obvious.

  • Information ratio too low (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bstadil ( 7110 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:21PM (#9219119) Homepage
    I too did enjoy the How the Irish saved civilization but it is not an effective way of learning about the subject. If you have a fairly good sense of history it is fine and entertaining, but if you want to get grounded in history it is less than useful.

    As an example he spend 3 chapters talking about St. Augustin of Hippo juxtaposed to St. Patrick. What came out of it could be summarized in a few paragraphs.

    St. Patrick became the first missionary following St. Paul and had little formal education.

    Well educated St. Augustin stayed at home in Hippo and conjured up the City of God based on Allaric's sacking of Rome in 410.

    • Interesting. What alternate resources would you recommend in order to become grounded in history?

      • What alternate resources would you recommend in order to become grounded in history?

        Maybe I shouldn't post this here but head on over to the alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.spoken-word newsgroup and download some of The Teaching Company's material.

        If you are quick or have a news seerver with longer retention you can catch the History of China Yao to Mao 5000 years or and excellent lecture series about Ancient Egypt.

        Look in this newsgroup and you will find a lot of excellent stuff. I think the TTC actually

    • As an example he spend 3 chapters talking about St. Augustin of Hippo juxtaposed to St. Patrick. What came out of it could be summarized in a few paragraphs.
      I found that about his book about the Irish too. He went into minute detail on a lot of poetry and literature that was a bit unecessary IMHO.

  • according to Hollywood (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:25PM (#9219159)
    We cant handle the TRUTH!

    Even when it's about ancient Greeks.

    Proof? In the movie Troy, starring Brad Pitt as Achilles, we have Patroclus, who, in the original Illiad, is Achilles' lover... in the movie, he's Achilles' cousin.

  • "Refining" democracy (Score:4, Informative)

    by InternationalCow ( 681980 ) <mauricevansteens ... m minus language> on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:29PM (#9219191) Journal
    Yeah, right. It may be worth mentioning that the Greek version of democracy differs somewhat from ours. In Athens, only free men were allowed to vote. Women and slaves were not. Hence, democracy in the Greek sense is more of an oligocracy. However, their system of adult full citizens voting on decisions did pave the way for the Western type of democracy that came out of the French revolution. One may wonder to what extent our modern democracies really are democracies. Oh, and part of the homosexual thing was due to the fact that most women (except for prostitutes, or haetares as they were known) were not considered fit and proper intellectual partners for a nice night out for a man. I'm not sure where the other part came from but it was first and foremost an "intellectual" thing.

    • Re:"Refining" democracy (Score:4, Informative)

      by praksys ( 246544 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:49PM (#9219411)
      Hence, democracy in the Greek sense is more of an oligocracy.

      Not even close. An oligarchy is a system of government where only a few rule. Athenian democracy involved rule by many , by a large slice of the population (perhaps as many as 40 thousand full citizens had the right to vote), and by both the rich and the poor. It was limited sufferage, but it was far closer in both spirit and practice to modern universal sufferage than it was to oligarchy.

      However, their system of adult full citizens voting on decisions did pave the way for the Western type of democracy that came out of the French revolution.

      The French revolution did not result in any sort of democratic government. It was a republic for a while, before the Monarchy was restored. The closest that they came to democracy was a brief period of mob rule.

      The American revolution preceded the French revolution, and the US was the first modern democracy.
      • I think there is a strong case for america only truly approaching a modern western type of democracy after the civil war with reformation and the granting to the freed slaves their freedom and a full right to vote. Alternatively women may consider it the introduction of sufferage for women, in which case New Zealand beats everyone. It is true that america had a democratic government of soughts, but especially with slavery in the south this resembled more the ancient republics with a ruling class of citizens
      • Dude, you're not getting my point. An oligarchy, as you rightly point out, is a rule of the few. While not meant literally, I did mean relatively few as you can hardly consider the eligible citizens of 500 BC Athens a majority of the population. There were at least 4-5 times as many slaves. Also, I am fully aware that a democracy did not follow the French revolution. It's the thoughts that count. If anything, the French revolution was about ideas even though the implementation was flawed (to say the very le
      • the US was the first modern democracy

        I'm all about giving props to the US of A, but I'm pretty sure Iceland's democracy predated ours by about 800 years.
        • In the period you are talking about Iceland didn't exactly have a government. It did have laws, and there were democratic elements to the way things worked, but because there was no government it is usually called an anarchy. Anyway, it was not a modern democracy. They did not have universal sufferage or representative government, or any of the other features of modern democracy.

          There were other democracies around before the US, and after the classical period though. Switzerland, and Republican Venice for
    • Maybe I can throw something in here that most people don't realize: Every surviving account of democracy in ancient Greece is harshly critical of it. Greek democracy didn't have some of the features we take for granted -- for example, separation of judicial and legislative powers, or protection of minorities. In practice it often amounted to what was basically mob rule, and Greek critics of time wrote very perceptive accounts of how easily the mob could be swayed one way or the other.

      I bring this up when I

    • Yeah, right. It may be worth mentioning that the Greek version of democracy differs somewhat from ours. In Athens, only free men were allowed to vote. Women and slaves were not.

      Technically in the United States, slaves are not allowed to vote either. Of course, the reason is that there aren't any, but I thought that this application of the Curse of Literal Meaning would satisfy some of the people complaining about lack of "geek content."

      I think this is an infallible indicator of geekdom--you never hear

  • Pericles and GWB? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by CatGrep ( 707480 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:29PM (#9219195)
    [quote from Pericles]
    it sounds ever so much like George W. Bush.

    I'm not sure you can include Pericles and GWB in the same thought. Pericles was an orator and, well...
    you get the picture.

    The last time oil prices fell after being relatively high, GW Bush had just entered the oil business. Perhaps it's time to send him back to the oil fields.

  • Mmmmm, pottery! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Vinnie_333 ( 575483 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:30PM (#9219210)
    Of course the Greeks changed the world. I couldn't imagine life without the fine art of erotic pottery.

  • Marketing history (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mariox19 ( 632969 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:33PM (#9219241)

    For what it's worth, I remember some years ago attending a paper conference for undergraduate papers in history. One person gave a paper on this author, specifically How the Irish Saved Civilization. The gist of the paper, and the discussion afterwards (which included professors), was that this author is more about selling books than writing good history.

    The criticism went as follows. Pick an affluent ethnic group in a major book market, and pander to them, writing about how great they are. For example, think of all the Irish in the area of Boston and New York (major book markets), pick up your pen, and start writing. After that success, try the Jews.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

    I actually haven't read any of his books (and for the record, I've nothing against either the Irish or the Jews!), I just remembered this criticism of the author and wanted to know from those who feel themselves capable of commenting whether this criticism holds water or not.

    Any comments?

    • It is a bestseller series (Score:4, Insightful)

      by AtariAmarok ( 451306 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:38PM (#9219280)
      You are onto something. Someone can be assured of bestsellerdom with "How the Italians Saved Civilization". I think that the Italian-American community is larger than the Greek community, so you will surely have sales. Next, books about Africans and Germans. Both groups with large numbers of people claiming descent.

      The larger the group, the better. "How the Arabs Saved Civilization" would be an easy one to write due to the advances of the middle-ages Islamic empire, but the sales would be low due to the small size of the Arab-American group compared to the groups named above.

  • Hinges of History (Score:3, Interesting)

    by HebrewToYou ( 644998 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:43PM (#9219338)
    I have read all four of the books in the series thus far. They are all quite good in their own respect, from How the Irish... through The Gifts of the Jews and including Sailing the Wine Dark Seas, currently being reviewed.

    This book tells a story through the narrative of Homer and many other fine greek writers/orators. I recommend it to anyone seeking to brush up on the Classics. Included in the hardback, as with all his books, is a set of rather interesting photographs which document the subject.

    Gifts of the Jews is quite good, too. You folks ought to give that a read, along with a great book titled The Source.

  • Plutach, Herodotus, Renault (Score:4, Informative)

    by handy_vandal ( 606174 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:50PM (#9219421) Homepage Journal
    a well rounded glimpse into the way the ancient Greeks lived, saw the world, and in fact into the whole of Greek experience.

    If you, like me, enjoy this kind of thing, see also ...

    Plutarch: biographies of Theseus, Pericles, Alexander, etc. Very warm, personable studies.

    Herodotus: "Inquiries". (Usually titled, incorrectly, "The Persian War".) Great fun to read -- lots of cool stories mixed with tall tales.

    Mary Renault: "The Mask of Apollo" and other novels. Renault is one of the best historical novelists ever. Both entertaining and informative.

    -kgj
    • Also Jerome Carcopino's (add accents to taste) "Daily Life in Ancient Rome" - later period, and as the title suggests focussing on everyday life rather than great historical figures or events, but very readable.

  • All Greek to us (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @02:59PM (#9219516) Homepage Journal
    The ancient Greeks, like everyone else, "stand on the shoulders of giants". But their own achievements obscure their own predecessors. Read some research like Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings [amazon.com], for evidence of global navigational skills of even more ancient peoples. If you don't think our Eurocentric history obscures the navigational achievements of prior civilizations, check out some of the Chinese global exploration prior to Columbus [1421.tv]. Or documentation of African navigation among the Americas [amazon.com]. Then there's the Pacific diaspora, which covered an entire hemisphere of Earth without "landmarks", at sea. Beware of Greeks bearing gifts: just where did they get them?

  • Wine dark sea... (Score:3, Funny)

    by freeze128 ( 544774 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @03:01PM (#9219544)
    In this particular case... Wine is not an emulator.

  • What make ancient history so fascinating... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hortensia Patel ( 101296 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @03:03PM (#9219559)

    ...are the parallels, even in societies that in many ways can look very alien. (Sparta under the Lycurgan regime abolished the family as a social unit, for example.) Certainly the parallels with today's "War on Terror" hysteria are striking:

    They altered the accepted usage of words in relation to deeds as they thought fit. Reckless audacity was termed courageous loyalty to party; prudent hesitation, specious cowardice; moderation, a cover for spinelessness; and an ability to understand all sides, total inertia. Fanatical enthusiasm was rated a man's part; and cautious deliberation, a euphemism for desertion.

    (From Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War [wikipedia.org] III 82, written in the 5th century BC. Sound familiar?)

    Back just before the first Gulf War - Desert Storm, not Iran/Iraq - the BBC did a special called (IIRC) The War that Never Ends, a set of dramatized talking-heads excepts from the period, drawing these parallels very simply but incredibly effectively. One of the best things I've ever seen on TV, and probably something that only the BBC could ever do.

    I wouldn't agree with the viewer in calling Greek warfare "total", however. Yes, they were the first to use shock, but that's another matter. Military participation was generally limited to the wealthier citizens (== voters.... hello, Heinlein), and war aims were generally limited, stopping far short of conquest or delenda-est-Carthago extremes. In many ways, Greek armies were like local sporting teams; war was a test/demonstration of courage and civic-mindedness. When professional combat trainers appeared in Greece, many folk at the time commented that yes, these techniques would make you invulnerable in battle, but what was the point? It wasn't what the activity was about. Rather like Greek theatre, I suppose - the Chorus was the focus of a play, not the individual actors.

    </ramble>
    • Military participation was generally limited to the wealthier citizens...

      Not so in the case of Athens. From the battle of Salamis onwards Athens depended on her Navy, and on the rowers who powered its ships. In fact that is one of the reasons why Athens adopted a democratic system that included all male citizens - even the poor.

      ...and war aims were generally limited, stopping far short of conquest or delenda-est-Carthago extremes.

      That was true prior to Alexander the Great. Not true after.

      • Athens adopted a democratic system that included all male citizens - even the poor

        But not the serf/slave class AFAIK, which is why I find the "total war" description unconvincing. Sparta did use helot serfs as skirmishers, but not in huge numbers and not to any great effect. (Possibly because they also used the helots for target practice...)

        You're right about the "wealthier" though; that was a braino.

        That was true prior to Alexander the Great. Not true after.

        Really? Interesting. IANAClassicist,

  • another good one (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Ravagin ( 100668 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @03:08PM (#9219625)
    If you want a slimmer and less all-encompassing read on the prominence of Greek seafaring, I heartily commend to you The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek [powells.com] by scholar Barry Cunliffe. If you're not from Marseille or a classics student, you might never of heard of Pytheas, an inhabitant of that same city (at that time a greek colony called Massalia) who not only ventured to the Ocean beyond the Pillars of Hercules, but charted the French Atlantic coast, the British isles, and explored as far north as Iceland and the Arctic Circle and as far east - maybe - as Denmark.

    Unfortunately, his book, On the Ocean, burned at Alexandria and survives only in quoted fragments, so we have to guess from these fragments - which blessedly include his longitudinal readings - the specifics of his journey. Using a thorough knowledge of Greek seafaring and Mediterranean naval culture, as well as a good handle on archaeology, Cunliffe takes you along Pytheas's hypothetical route, introducing you to the ancient peoples of France, the British Isles, Norway, and Denmark (no one in Iceland yet, sorry).

    It's a pretty compelling story, one that's not usually told, and Cunliffe makes it eminently readable and enjoyable. And if you're like me, it'll make you want to go read the "On the Ocean" fragments in the original Greek, in the hopes of gleaning another hidden secret of this amazing exploration.

  • I started it - it was terrible (Score:3, Informative)

    by Xoro ( 201854 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @03:49PM (#9220076)

    Heavy handed, poorly argued, ill-informed, amateur. It was the cheap authority of cocktail party talk run amok.

    I've forgotten much, but one thing that stuck out in my head was his argument against the notion that Homer wrote down an oral poem rather than penning the epics himself. Cahill basically quotes segments of the poem, declares them too complex for mere oral traditions, and says anyone who doesn't agree with him has "a tin ear".

    His other arguments followed the same general line:

    1. Form hypothesis
    2. Defend it with: "It just had to be that way"
    3. Insult skeptics
    4. Profit

    I wanted to like the book when I picked it up, but quickly formed the impression that Cahill is a boorish simpleton, straining himself in self-congratulation for his dubious insights. I won't be reading his other works.

  • This kind of language irks me (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Wylfing ( 144940 ) <brian&wylfing,net> on Friday May 21, 2004 @04:02PM (#9220213) Homepage Journal
    He does this in an idiosyncratic way that will please neither academics nor purists, but which does allow one to taste and smell the Greeks' cultural milieu, and not just to cogitate about it. But cogitate you will, as Cahill gives enough food for thought as post modern man is likely to be able to bear.

    This could have been stated ever-so-much more clearly. Advice: don't use words just because you think they make you sound smart. It turns clear prose rotten. These two sentences could stop a fucking train.

  • This Book is Not Good (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tarantolato ( 760537 ) on Friday May 21, 2004 @05:34PM (#9221027) Journal
    The basic problem is that the author is incapable of imagining a world different from his own.

    The leads to some annoying religious/political biases. Greek culture is evaluated based on what it contributed to Catholicism and social-justice (good) or what it contributed to Neoconservatism (bad). Annoyingly, Cahill takes V.D. Hanson and other neocon writers at their word when they say the Greeks anticipated neocon thought, when their findings are open to doubt.

    But Cahill's lack of imagination shows up in other annoying ways. For example, some of the most interesting work being done in Classics these days is based on the hypothesis that early Greek poems like the Homeric epics were not written down once and for all by a monumental author at a very early date, but instead underwent continuous recomposition-in-performance until...depends on how radical you want to get; some scholars will say 500 BC, others 200 BC or later.

    Cahill's argument against this is that the Iliad and Odyssey are too good to have been a collaborative effort. This is akin to saying that Linux must have been put together by a highly paid corporate team with extensive UML documents and an imprimatur from AT&T.

    I'd recommend Greg Nagy's _The Best of the Achaeans_ if you want to see some of the more interesting directions that Greek scholarship has been taking in the past few decades.
  • If you like the subject matter, you may want to check out a novel [amazon.com] by mostly the same title, by Harry Turtledove under a pseudonym. It was wonderful!

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