Microsoft, Sony Announce iPod Competitors 610
Pfhreak writes "According to the Denver Post -- Las Vegas section, a little over halfway down the page -- Microsoft will begin selling a $50 music player that will 'look and feel as good as the iPod' later this year. Yusuf Mehdi, a Microsoft VP, is quoted as saying that the player will give customers more choices than Apple."
In related news, Tetsugaku-San writes "The Register has the scoop on Sony's new portable audio/visual playback device. Impressively it plays MPEG2, MPEG4, BMP, GIF, PNG, TIFF and MP3 (finally they got the message Apple was gonna whoop em!) straight out of the box. Not as good battery life as I'd like to see, but real world tests remain to be seen."
Is there any way (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Insightful)
Whatever happened to outdoing your competitors?
Way to go MS. Aim low.
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Interesting)
Way to go MS. Aim low."
Oh right. Here's what the reverse would be:
"Um, M$, this is nothing like the elegance of the iPod. Way to go MS, blow it again."
Re:Is there any way (Score:4, Insightful)
Thats just it, it doesn't have to be anything like iPod. As a geek (normal ppl will no doubt disagree) I want something functional. Something that works and does everything its supposed to do with no extraneous BS.
Barring that I would settle for something elegant. Elegant does not have to mean "...look and feel like the iPod". Why is it that Apple, a company of relatively small size and resources can make computers and electronics more aesthetically pleasing than atlest half the women I've dated and M$ can only put out bloated, overpriced crap. Look at the XBox.
The money that M$ is losing on this MP3 player project could be invested in market research and finding the next User Interface design geniuses that will put out something that'll make every M$ bashing geek on /. cream in his pants. Instead they'd rather put out cheap crap and spread all kinds of FUD just to kill off a competitor.
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Insightful)
I know it's flamebait (using the dollar sign tipped me off) but I can't help myself. The Xbox is indeed bloated (in terms of size) but it is neither "overpriced" nor "crap." In fact, it offers more functionality (by nearly every measure) than Sony's PS2 for the same price. There are great games to play on the system, and cross-platform games usually look, and sometimes play, better than on competing machines.
Whatever the truth is about Microsoft's potential MP3 player (and we don't have "truth" yet since the linked article is a blurb that generates more questions than answers), there's nothing wrong with the Xbox that a table (and, for some people, a few Japanese-style RPGs) won't fix.
Re:Is there any way (Score:3, Interesting)
Crossplatform games often look better on Xbox, but very seldom play better, often I think the PS2 version plays best. It probably comes down to what you are used to, but I find the PS2 version controls better in almost every case. Even after reducing the Xbox controller to a reasonable size it is still the worst designed of the current generation console controllers.
Re:Is there any way (Score:3, Insightful)
You ask, I deliver.
Firstly, In terms of sales, Xbox is second. Gamecube is third. PS2 is first, and not surprisingly, as they had a two year head start on the pair.
Secondly, in terms of capability, Xbox is the winner, hands down. It's simply a more powerful machine than the PS2, with better graphics, an internal hard-drive, an internal network adapter, 4 controler slots compared to PS2's 2, has the ability to rip your own music to the hard drive
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody uses Microsoft products has ever been called elitist. MS isn't into selling to narrow niche markets.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Is there any way (Score:4, Funny)
Dunno what you're gonna do if you actually want to *listen* to the damn thing....
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Insightful)
Phase 1: Embrace - Get your foot into the market, as deep as you can. Doesn't have to "outdo" the competitors. You can even sell at a loss if you like, the OS market will pay for it. Make your web browser "free". Sell your XBox/MS-IPod at a lower price than it costs you to make.
Phase 2: Extend - Use market penetration, leverage, hostile takeovers, anticompetetive practice and "innovation" to make that market yours.
Phase 3: Profit
Phase 4: Find new market. Repeat step 1.
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Informative)
Most of Apples competitors have only been able to compete in form OR function OR price, or 2 of those factors, never all 3. That indicates that the iPods aren't as inflated in price as you think, or with all the competition out there, they wouldn't be so hard to improve on. Apple does have a higher markup than some companies, but if they knocked $100 off the entry level iPod, I doubt they'd be making any net profit, and they are not a charity. The markup is not that dramatic.
Re:Is there any way (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree that the Toshiba 1.8" hard drives are more expensive than the typical laptop hard drives that competitors with similar storage capacities typically use, but I question whether you actually are basing your argument on information availible to you, or simply guessing.
The Toshiba 1.8" drives used in iPods are not availible to consumers as far as I know. I have only seen them availible on a direct to manufacturer basis. Subsequently, how did you come about the prices for those
Re:Is there any way (Score:3, Funny)
I think you might be shopping at the wrong grocery store.
Re:Rio Karma (Score:5, Informative)
After that, everything else is just quibbling. Still, I should point out that you neglected to mention the iPod's new lossless codec.
Re:Rio Karma (Score:5, Informative)
Width: 0.62"
Interfaces: FireWire 400 AND USB2
Extras also include Smart Playlists and auto playlist syncing.
Also, an interface that doesn't suck the balls.
Re:Rio Karma (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Predatory (Score:3, Insightful)
What makes you think it will now?
They're above the law. It's been proven time and time again. Unless our government grows some balls, MS will continue to stomp on them.
Funny how we can kick the asses of two middle eastern countries, but can't rope in an out of control company. Gotta love this country.
-Z
Re:Predatory (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Is there any way (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, I don't think anyone could come up with a more succinct statement that summarizes why the Slashdot crowd has absolutely no clue about the portable music player market.
Only on Slashdot (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Is there any way (Score:5, Interesting)
The quote about the $50 players was left out, but it does still contain the 'look and feel' quote, and he is obviously referring to third-party players that will be launched alongside a new microsoft music download service.
What kind of hard drive could a manufacturer possibly put in a player for less than $50 - none, maybe flash 128/256 - but that's already on the market, and has been for some time. Anyway, I choose to believe this to be just more Microsoft FUD until I see such a $50 iPod killer.
Re:Is there any way (Score:3, Insightful)
'You get what you pay for' simply means this: when a product/service involves any sort of quality, either in materials, labor, skills in construction, etc., you cannot expect an unreasonable amount of quality for a given amount of money. Rather, there is a reasonable exchange, as determined by the market: the conclusion then
No .ogg, no sale. (Score:4, Insightful)
drunken moderation (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, I know "don't complain about moderation". Good thing this is an open forum and I can complain about retarded moderation if I want.
Re:drunken moderation (Score:3, Interesting)
Like I said. I've got maybe twenty CD. Every ogg and mp3 I own fits on two CD that I play with the rio MP3 CD player I bought 2 years ago for $60.
The only complaint I have with it is battery life sucks. Its too big to fit in my shirt pocket and once every 5 days or so I have to swap out the CD. and the navigation is archaic, which isn't much of a probaly because I've basi
Re:drunken moderation (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No .ogg, no sale. (Score:5, Informative)
Instead of bitching about the lack of OGG support on Slashdot where it won't help matters, why don't you email Apple and tell them that you would be an iPod if they'd ship with OGG support? That would be the more constructive argument to make. Here, I'll even help you out and provide the proper link to submit your comment:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html
Happy codec hunting!
Re:No .ogg, no sale. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No .ogg, no sale. (Score:5, Interesting)
Operator: And our next question we'll take is from Arik Hesseldahl with Forbes.com.
Arik Hesseldahl: Hi, Steve. Always concerned about -- not concerned, I guess, but wondering -- one of the previous questions was about revenue. I'm wondering if iTunes has reached the break even point yet.
Steve Jobs: Yes. The iTunes music store had a small profit this past quarter.
Arik Hesseldahl: Had a small profit. OK. Any interest whatsoever, since in the open source OGG Vorbis format?
Steve Jobs: We're certainly not getting any requests from customers for it.
Arik Hesseldahl: OK.
Source: Conference call, April 29, 2004. [macobserver.com]
Competition? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Competition? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Competition? (Score:5, Funny)
funny you should mention that (Score:5, Funny)
What a coincidence. Apple's lawyers are already filling out a lawsuit with the very same title!
Re:Look and Feel (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless of course they force you to use a Microsoft online music service to get music (and not let you play your own MP3s). Then it makes sense for them to sell you a $400 item for $50, and make a killing on the actual songs... (kinda like they do with XBox).
Prediction ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Prediction ... (Score:5, Interesting)
You're assuming it will even play MP3s.
If they are pricing it at $50, they have to somehow make a profit on the songs; ie: at this price, I'd imagine they'd force everyone to use their online music store to buy music---and the player won't play anything else.
Re:Prediction ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, I think it's great that microsoft wants to sell me $200 hard drives for $50 in a nice shinny box. Me buying a new mini hard drive == M$ losing $150. What a deal
Re:Prediction ... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Prediction ... (Score:3, Interesting)
If the zealots are trying to argue that the iPod was the first anything, they are plain wrong. Apple's goal is to make it the best, not the first.
The company's implementation of a technology often leads others to imitate it, in an attempt to reproduce the success.
Re:Prediction ... (Score:3, Informative)
Intel owned the rights to USB, and I believe still does.
Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Apple and everything they do. Their energy is put into making existing technologies work better, which is something that they do brilliantly.
Realistically (Score:5, Interesting)
However, even Dell's digital jukeboxes [dell.com] start at $200, and beating Dell pricewise is something out of ordinary (possible, but few have done it).
Re:Realistically (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Realistically (Score:4, Funny)
Loss Leader (Score:4, Interesting)
I would suspect that with a $50 pricetag, Micro$oft is losing some amount of money per unit. They want to make the money on the music sales. Like razors or cameras - make money on the blades/film.
Re:Loss Leader (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Loss Leader (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree. I think that if the pricetag is $50, then Microsoft intends to lose money on the units AND the music sales (similar to how the XBox, a current venture loses money overall).
Microsoft more likely than not intends to lose gobs of money overall on the entire music venture, with only two goals in mind:
No -- read the article carefully (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Loss Leader (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, XBox games are still selling pretty well. So what if 10% of the users break their security.
Re:Loss Leader (Score:3, Interesting)
ie: Eventhough many smart folks won't buy it, there are plenty of people who'll find the $50 price attractive (even if it comes with a TON of restrictions).
Also when you consider a `player that can play anything for $250' or a `restricted one for $50' the decision is heavily weighted towards the $50 purchase.
Access to media (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Access to media (Score:3, Informative)
Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
I likely will be sticking with the iPod I suspect.
Nice, but where's one with OGG Vorbis support? (Score:2, Interesting)
So, does anyone know of another similar player, that does both MPEG4 (or compatible, like XVid) and OGG Vorbis?
Re:Nice, but where's one with OGG Vorbis support? (Score:2)
Price is too low? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not trying to flamebait or anything, but haven't we seen this type of strategy before?
Dejavu is such a wonderful thing.
Re:Price is too low? (Score:3, Informative)
Many people prefer to not have to carry around CDs. MP3s are smaller than AIFF, but a CD still doesn't hold much, comparatively.
Hard drives the size of those used in the iPod and Dell's products are relatively expensive. Go look at prices out there. They make up a significant amount of the cost of an iPod.
People will pay a tad more for Apple products. You may not. Many may not. But there are more than enough customers to keep Apple going.
You are comparing apples to o
Re:Price is too low? (Score:3, Funny)
look and feel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Look and feel are cheap. The question is whether it will work and sound as good. The principal attraction of the iPod is that it's intuitive and meshes well with iTunes. That's worth money to users.
I'm glad that iPod is getting some competition (it will make iPods better to) but I don't see that this is necessarily a death blow for them.
Re:look and feel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is video really needed? (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean the only use I can think of is for mobile pr0n needs, and if that's the case, I sure as hell don't want to be sitting next to them wthhout a raincoat.
Re:Is video really needed? (Score:3)
ip-p-p-p-pPod! (Score:4, Interesting)
I can just see MS coming out with something the size of an ipod, but with a tiny flash memory instead of a hard drive. And if MS markets it hard enough and makes it ubiquitous enough, the uninformed consumers will just slurp it up and think they're getting a huge bargin (despite there having been flash players that cheap for a long time).
Ummm ... BMP, GIF, PNG, and TIFF? (Score:5, Funny)
Really? I can't wait to rawk to my
Re:Ummm ... BMP, GIF, PNG, and TIFF? (Score:5, Funny)
bzzzzt, crackle, fft, pssssst, bzzt, ffft, bzzzzzt, pst, eck, bzzzz, bzzzt, psst, crackle, bzzzzt, crackle, pssst, pst, ffft, bzzt, bzzzzzt.
cat (Score:3, Informative)
Wow the Sony plays BMP? (Score:2)
Oh not again, Bill (Score:5, Funny)
This time we're serious. It's really cool.
Really.
Re:Oh not again, Bill (Score:3, Insightful)
In reality
It'll be clunky but it will work
It will be less user friendly but it will do
It will be cheaper
It will be leveraged like crazy.
The only uncertain part is whether it will be DRM'd to the gills, or if it will play most formats, or if it will be a nerds dream and will have room for new codecs.
The result of that question will determine the true success, assuming all the other postulations are correct
Apple must be nimble now (Score:2)
Jobs may be right that portable video may not be all that great, but that doesn't mean that Apple shouldn't come out with a video iPod just to throw at the media. If Sony's and Microsoft's devices get too much attention just because of the color screens, Apple has to counter.
I wonder about how Microsoft's offerings will affe
In my opinion (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft has been really, really harping on this "choice" thing, by which they mean "iTMS purc
Value (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes but (Score:4, Funny)
Look and Feel? (Score:3, Funny)
Please note thatt by "look and feel as good as the iPod" they mean they're selling a rounded green and blue plastic shell, they also threw a couple a couple beads inside which you shake, when they rattle it makes the shell a music player.
Geeks don't understand fashion (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Geeks don't understand fashion (Score:3, Insightful)
Doesn't the meaning of the word "fashion" imply that a lot of people ought to be using Apple computers, rather than a miniscule fraction of users?
Right. That's why none of their consumer electronics designs like the Walkman or the Discman have ever been popular, trendsetting items.
Wow, this must be wh
Re:Geeks don't understand fashion (Score:3, Insightful)
Fashionable has never been equated with commodity. Fashion sets the trend, then the rest of the industry tries to match it while balancing supply and demand to the lowest common denominator.
Re:Geeks don't understand fashion (Score:4, Funny)
My imaginary girlfriend would totally agree with you if she didn't live in Canada.
Another "iPod killer..." (Score:3, Insightful)
But a friend points me to the Sony announcement -- it plays movies, all these formats. Does it have a corkscrew, I ask? GPS?
What? Corkscrew? GPS? Yeah, if it's going to replace things, it should play my AV stuff, have a corkscrew, show me where I am, and be sturdy enough to pound nails...
Really -- what I want in a portable music player is to play music. I don't care about video, GPS, cell phone, or anything else.
As to the iPod killer? It's already on the market. It stores enough of my music, the battery lasts long enough, it drives my earphones (Etymotics ER4), and it's small enough to carry in a pocket.
It's the iPod mini. It does what I want, and I love it.
FUD (Score:4, Insightful)
Silicone Breast Implants (Score:5, Funny)
Pardon my cynical attitude but I cannot imagine an item that sells for $50 for 20G versus the Apple model for the same size at $399 looking and feeling remotely the same.
I have one of the original 5G iPods. I have used, abused and it runs beautifully. The design and looks are without peer IMHO.
This sort of reminds me of plastic surgeons who claim silicone breast implants have the same look and feel as the real deal.
Re:Silicone Breast Implants (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, the reason that the iPod looks and feels so good is that the iPod has a fast interface (FireWire or USB2), tons of storage (i.e. a hard drive), and that fantastic scroll wheel.
If MS makes a $50 "iPod", that means that it'll have to cost $20 to manufacturer. For $20, it'll be hard to include a $60 hard drive, much less the controls and display, battery, audio circuitry, etc.
The only option
apple may spin off iPod (Score:3, Interesting)
I hearby coin a new term (Score:5, Funny)
MS's sales tactics scare the hell out of me. (Score:3, Interesting)
MS is going to shoot for long term profits from WM licenses. They are going to try to squish competition, and after that is done, they're going to raise licensing rates... which will make music more expensive.
I'm all for competition. However MS's concept of "competition" is the exact same as Walmart's. Slash prices, kill competitors, raise rates, and lower product/service quality.
I'm sure Apple knew this was going to happen. These are typical Microsoft actions. It'll be interesting to see how they're going to innovate their way out of this predicament... they certainly don't have the money to counteract stuff like this.
vaporware... (Score:3, Funny)
What about the things that matter? (Score:3, Interesting)
Well thats great, but id personally prefer a player that sounds as good, and performs as well as the iPod rather than one that "looks and feels" like one. With a 50quid price tag it will either be horrendously locked in (so that they can make money back from the songs) or the capacity will be so small that it becomes inconvient for people with large collections.
And i'd be very surprised if the "Gives more choice to consumers" part means anything more than WMA support, I would be prepared to place money on the fact that flac and ogg support are not included in that "more choice" line up...
However
nick
more choice? (Score:3, Insightful)
How exactly is a Microsoft portable MP3 player going to give more choice to consumers than an iPod? Is he referencing that the end user can use all of the other commercial download services that are in competition with Apple's iTunes? (you know, all the ones that deal in WMA, and yes, I said "deal"). In that case, the "choice" is like Henry Ford saying the consumer could have his Model T "in any color, as long as it is black." I'm sorry, but unless the Microsoft player supports Ogg and "unencrypted" AAC, then again, its the illusion of choice on the part of Microsoft. In other words, more of the smoke and mirrors routine from Redmond. Considering this product will be another expense bankrolled by the ill-gotten gains of their operating system (and office applications) monopoly, they should (IMHO) instead invest the money spent on this ill-conceived project on further securing their bread-and-butter offerings. Or buyout Rockstar Games and break the exclusive PS2/3 contract they have for the next GTA title so the Xbox Next has a fighting chance against the PS3.
Regardless, I will lay down dollars or euros that Microsoft will include an (unencrypted) AAC to WMA conversion program, to answer Apple's tit-for-tat from last month's announcement. Just like I will bet green that Apple will be the first computer manufacturer to ship machines with Blue Ray drives as a way of spiting the DVD Forum for supporting WMP9 as the compression scheme for HD-DVD.
Sneak Peek... (Score:5, Funny)
YAIW (Score:4, Insightful)
Mac OS. Man, in some ways Mac OS 9 is still better than Windows XP.
NeXT Cube. What a sweet machine. There was nothing like it then and still respected today.
NeXTStep. IMO still the best OS made. So good Mac OS X uses huge chucks of it.
Newton. Bumpy at first but the last models released are still better IMO than any other pda.
Mac Cube. Very cool looking and quiet. They still get top dollar on ebay today.
iMac. The original iMac gave us style where style had been missing. Beige was dead and you were proud of your Bondi Blue machine.
... and of course the iPod.
I know I've missed a few other marvels and I'm sure there's some cool stuff they never released. With all that said don't you think that Apple already has a working video iPod prototype that could be in production in less than 30 days? The magic eight ball says "Yes".
I have yet to see someone scoop Apple in style and thunder, and IMO MS/Sony won't do it this time. I don't care how good it is, Apple will make their's better.
Is MS doing the OS on this iPod look alike? (Score:3, Funny)
I doubt it will compete with the next gen of iPods.
Re:sony audio quality (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:That's nice, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
And as for their music player, it's rediculous. They make you pay extra for "enhanced" (i.e. non-crippled) software, and I'm sure the hardware isn't as good as Apple's. Apple, unfortunately (for their sales department), always adds features that are hard to market. For instance, read any review of MP3 players and you'll find that Apple's sound output hardware (DA converters, amp, etc.) is the best. But you can't really market that.
Oh well. The people who want a good music player will buy the Apple and the people who want a new toy will buy the M$ box. That's the way things have always been, and I don't see how it affects me if M$ makes a $50 music box. Whatever
Re:That's nice, but... (Score:3, Informative)
That statement borders on blatant trolling! However, since I have faith in your high moral caliber and good intentions, I'll assume what you meant to say was "Dell laptops have higher rates of failure (or lower MTBF) than powerbooks, and here are the statistics to back it up. You can clearly see that the dramatic difference in failure rates justifies t
The benefits of these devices (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, for $300 you can get 15Gb of storage on the low-end iPod. For $500 you can get $40Gb of storage on the high-end iPod.
The iPod/iTunes combo has become the core of my audio system. I don't have a boom box or home stereo system. I hook my iPod into my stereo TV when I want to listen to tunes downstairs. When I want to listen to tunes upstairs, I listen to the tunes through my computer's speakers. When I'm driving in the car, I plug in my tape deck adapter and go.
When I go for a run or go to work out, I take my iPod and have all of my tunes with me. So in that sense it's not just "a Walkman that doesn't need CDs or tapes." A CD Walkman is fine if I just want to listen to whatever CDs I happen to have with me at the time. But when I'm mobile, the last thing I want to do is decide which tunes I think I'll want to listen to at some point in the future. I want the whole range of my music library available.
I'm not rich. Not even close. I like my music a lot, but I'm not the music freak I was when I was in my teens. All the same, the iPod has really changed my listening habits quite a bit. It allows me to listen to a broader range of my own music than I otherwise would, lets me listen to music pretty much anywhere, and eliminates the need to haul around discs or tapes wherever I go.
Prices will doubtless drop on these devices as they become commoditized. Someday they'll drop to a price that will be acceptable to you. In the mean time, the investment in my iPod has more than justified the cost several times over for me (and for my non-technophile wife, who is an iPod addict as well).
Who cares if they lose money... (Score:3, Funny)
--
Anyone else notice that MS stock is going for less than Apple?