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Music Media The Almighty Buck The Internet

eBay Running Trial for Downloadable Music 165

Posted by CowboyNeal from the bidding-for-bands dept.
supersandra writes "Looks like eBay has been inspired by all those millions of iTunes song sales. They're running a six-month test offering downloadable music through authorized sellers, who would have to 'ensure copyright protection for the content and meet service-level agreements.' Also of note, 'music buyers won't be allowed to resell the files on eBay.'"
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eBay Running Trial for Downloadable Music More

eBay Running Trial for Downloadable Music

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  • second hand market for digital music? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:01PM (#9712206)
    I have 5 gigs of that .... ebay here i come!!!

    • BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,
      If I buy one song, get sick of it, I want to sell it.
      Just like a car!
    • Wow. We're all used to posters not Ring TFA, but you didn't even read the post.

      Hamster

  • Yay! more DRM'ed goodness. Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RLiegh ( 247921 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:01PM (#9712209) Homepage Journal
    Seriously, I would never pay for DRM-encrusted windows-only music files; and I don't get why it has taken off as much as it has.

    If you want my money, either give me unemcumbered files; or (if you're an online station) give me a large selection of music that I can pick and choose what individual songs are being streamed to me. Launchcast has a great selection; but if there's a way to pick and choose what you want to hear (instead of "well, you like the ramones, have some greenday") I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is.
    • DRM-encrusted windows-only music files

      You forgot the DRM-encrusted mac-only music files.
    • Rhapsody. Gives you what you need. Plus the custom radio stations that you can setup are nice.
      • Isn't Rhapsody from Real? I still have nightmares from my brief stint of using RealOne.

        • It appears to come in two flavors, Listen and Real. I have the Listen version and have had no Real-esque nightmares, which I definitely got from RealOne (and every other piece of Real software I've ever tried to use).
    • It exists. It's Roxio's New Napster and Real's Rhapsody service. Both offer pay-per-month schemes that allow you to have unlimited playback access (on DRMed computers, of course) to all of the music they're allowed to give you. Any major artist that's not there is excluded because the artist or their label is holding out... $9.95 a month for either service.

      Real uses a streaming model, but Napster actually allows you to authorize three PCs, and cashe tracks on disk. Therefore, you can download music to a la
    • Go with Rhapsody [rhapsody.com]. All you can stream from a pretty huge library is around ten bucks a month. I do most of my music listening in my home office, so this is perfect for me. I barely use CDs anymore. It's especially nice being able to satisfy those weird urges to hear things you normally hate at no (incremental) cost whatsoever. (I'm not going to by an America CD just to satisfy my psychotic need to hear "Sister Golden Hair", but if I can have it streaming for free in a few seconds...)

  • What they should do (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mfh ( 56 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:03PM (#9712221) Homepage Journal
    Here's what Ebay should do: take mp3.com's formula for indy music and tweak it; auction off download rates for each artist by the number of songs sold, and start with $0 per song, then start slowly charging more and more until the song reaches a cap of say $1.50 USD that goes directly to the artist. Calculate the popularity of the song by the number of purchases, and raise/lower the cost for the audience. This would be a really good model to make money. I would likely forget about selling RIAA titles because they all sound the same to me, per genre. Indy music is the way to go for me.

    • Re:What they should do (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      You think indie doesn't have anything to do with the RIAA? - Think again. Many many indie labels are owned by not-so-indie labels (like Sony, for example) which of course are active members of the RIAA.

    • Re:What they should do (Score:5, Informative)

      by chimpo13 ( 471212 ) <slashdot@nokilli.com> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:09PM (#9712269) Homepage Journal
      Ah yes, the mp3 formula of collecting money for you, that they won't send out. And occasionally changing the amount owed without explanation.

      Then when enough people bitch about it, start charging money for an email response. Say, the emails I have where they wanted more of my money to answer why they haven't paid me yet. I didn't pay the money so I never got an answer. But I sure am glad I helped mp3 make money.

    • Re:What they should do (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Simonetta ( 207550 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:31PM (#9712392)
      I agree. eBay is an auction service. If they are going to sell music then they should do it at the price that people want to pay, instead of a fixed fantasy price from the RIAA companies.

      I buy and sell equipment and 'things' on eBay. I'm toying with the idea of offering some of the specialized wire-wound specialized electronic prototypes that I have been able to get working.
      When I want music that I haven't heard before, I check audio CDs out from the library. When I want a specific song, I use KazaaLite to get it from one of millions of people who are sharing billions of files. I don't have any need for music download services that charge large amounts of money for audio data in restricted and semi-encrypted formats. The only way that the music sellers can compete with Kazaa is to be better than Kazaa. Nothing else is going to work.

      Actually eBay should sell movie tickets by auction. Say the $250 million blockbuster ShitheadMan II will be released this friday. The local theatre can auction tickets for the first show that might go up to $30-$40 a seat. However a Wednesday evening showing of Return of Bozo III that was released a month ago might only bring an auction price of $1.35. Still is better than an projecting a film to an empty seat.

      Finding and buying specialized things on EBay seems to be just an American phenomenon. I can't see something like this in Germany, where it's still illegal to have stores open on Sunday or for individual stores to have sales on overstocked items. It seems that law was passed in the late 1930's because storeowners of a certain group where liquidating their merchandise at reduced prices in order to leave the country before being liquidated themselves. This was considered an affront to good German shopkeepers who never had sales so laws were passed making it illegal to reduce the price of an item unless all the local shopkeepers reduced the price of the item at the same time. After the war, the laws remained to promote 'order' and remain in effect to this day.
      Can you imagine eBay taking off in such an environment? I often feel sorry for the Germans (I'm not Jewish, otherwise I wouldn't), they think that they're so free, and yet they have all these insane laws that prove otherwise. Generally the USA is the best place to buy things because they have the widest selections, the best prices, and honest merchants who are seriously interested in making it easy for to actually buy what you want. And Oregon is the best place to buy stuff in the USA because there is no sales tax. No VAT, No GST/PST, no nothing. You buy something that costs $99.95, give the clerk a hundred dollars, and get back a 5 cent coin with polite 'Thank You, Have A Nice Day'. Try doing that anywhere else in the civilized world!
      • Last time I checked ebay.de was doing quite well.. Paypal just seems to have added local services there also..

        So despite those laws, it seems that ebay isn't suffering that badly ;P

        On the other hand.. there is a bit of truth in the sentiment of your message from what I experience (spending about a quarter of my time in Germany, my girlfriend lives in Berlin).

        There is quite a bit lacking with regards to freedom there, but it is very funny to hear someone proclaim the ultimate freedom of the USA where it o
      • EasyCinema in the UK does exactly that, with online booking and seats starting at 20p (about 35 US cents), including all taxes. Unfortunately, a big cartel of greedy Hollywood studios wants people to pay a lot more [bbc.co.uk], so the choice is quite limited. The MPAA would undoubtedly stop eBay or any other company doing something similar in the US.
    • That's not a bad idea at all. The only thing question/critique I have is, would a portion of the $1.50 (say, 20 cents, or 30% of whatever that track is currently going for) go to the owner of the site/company? If so, I'd say it's got a chance of being successful, if not, I think the bandwidth would gnaw them away.

      what do you think?

  • Par for the course (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MunchMunch ( 670504 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:04PM (#9712229) Homepage
    eBay has already shown [slashdot.org] that they don't really care about preserving consumer's physical rights to resell in the digital world.

    I find this more than a little hypocritical, since the entire concept of eBay is about reselling physical goods. In an entirely digital world, eBay's own policies would preclude it from selling anything.

    • In the digital world, there is no "thing" to sell. All one can sell is duplication rights.

      "Consumers," by definition, don't own those.

      • Consumers, by definition, do own limited duplication rights on copyrighted material. If I buy a CD it isn't a mistake that I can make backup copies of it. That copyright law hasn't differentiated between digital and physical doesn't somehow mean those rights, such as fair use rights, the right to first sale, and so on don't exist.
      • So when you "buy" a CD (AKA a digital "thing") you don't own it? And you can't resell it to a used CD store?

        Also DRM could be considered to convey thingness to a file by preventing it from being copied.
      • Consumers do own duplication rights. They don't own distribution rights.
        • What I meant to convey is that, in a digital Seller/Consumer relationship, the only thing the Seller can provide to the consumer is duplication rights (the right to copy the seller's property, the right to "copy" the digital object into the computing device that fulfils its intended purpose, the right to a backup copy).

          It follows that a "consumer," in the normal course of things, has no right to transfer these limited duplication rights.

          I obviously misphrased my point. Without a right to duplicate, the

    • Wait.. this isn't an entirely digital world?? *head asplodes*

  • Been there, Done That... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    We've been using a service [payloadz.com] that has supported this funstionality for some time. They've already processed several thousand auctions for digital goods. They just want us to include a copyright statement in our auction listing to not conflict with the eBay downloadable media policy.

    It is pretty interesting to look at how a place like eBay, usually for one-off items, can work for goods with unlimited availability lke digital goods. I hope it works out.

  • Format? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sockonafish ( 228678 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:05PM (#9712238)
    I checked out the site (accessible at music.listings.ebay.com) and couldn't figure out what format the files come in. Anyone want to buy a song [ebay.com] and find out?

  • Looks like it's time to dump eBay stock. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by payote ( 621854 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:06PM (#9712252)
    If this is their best idea for how to grow the business, I'm worried. iTunes Music Store had a 'small profit' last quarter - but it really exists to sell iPods - what equivalent business model does eBay intend to use, or for that matter , what better model do they intend to use?
    • iTunes Music Store had a 'small profit' last quarter

      And they had to sell 100,000,000 songs to get it.
    • ...what equivalent business model does eBay intend to use,

      how about the same one that has worked for them all this time:
      Charge for listing an item
      Charge again if it sells

    • Re:Looks like it's time to dump eBay stock. (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      RTFA

      "But eBay's market entry isn't seen as a threat to Apple, Sony, Roxio, which owns the Napster service, or other companies that sell music online. "I see it as a revenue stream for eBay, and not something that's transformational for the industry," said Gartner analyst Martin Reynolds, adding that he would expect music downloading to be a "relatively small percentage" of eBay's business.

    • "If this is their best idea for how to grow the business, I'm worried. iTunes Music Store had a 'small profit' last quarter - but it really exists to sell iPods - what equivalent business model does eBay intend to use, or for that matter , what better model do they intend to use?"

      Steve Jobs' statements bout iTMS profitability has confused a lot of people, particularly those who haven't been directly involved in starting a business.

      It's extremely common for startup businesses to operate at little or no

    • Something wildly popular usually manages to make money somehow - unless the owners are either too dumb or making profit is not their first priority. Next time Sony re-negotaites a contract with iTMS, it may find that half of their customers search for a song on that particular music service and just buy something else if they don't see it. All of a sudden, Apple gets to keep more of that $0.99. 2005) Profit!!!
  • What's interesting to see is that eBay is moving away from "traditional" items and auctions. Now that they're into "Digital Downloads". This promises to be a big headache to maintain though, with eBay already facing so many phishing and spoofing attacks. Do they really want to deal with DRM, RIAA and enforcing legitimate music sales?

    Another way of looking at this is that now if I'm a music seller, but want to also buy some music, I'll need to register for another accounts. This is sure to boost the number

  • rare and out of print? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:08PM (#9712266)
    I'm wondering if someone will be able to sell high quality rips of some of the rare and out of print material from some lesser known artists and independent labels. I have an addiction to some genres that were never popular in the world, and all but unheard of in my country. Obtaining some artists in nigh impossible, or decent quality since the cd runs were so small, and in some cases only a few vinyl were pressed.

    It would be very cool if someone could get rights to resell some of that. I don't really care about the most of the pop stuff. But if only someone could put out the rare stuff. It would be great.

    And completely off-topic, Ministry has released a decent (pretty damn good) followup to their New World Order CD from when Bush Sr. was in office, called Houses of the Mole. Heard it. def. worth checking out.

  • Good for independent artists (Score:4, Insightful)

    by unboring ( 697886 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:12PM (#9712293) Homepage
    This would be a great way for independent musicians to sell their music directly to their fans, without giving a "slice of the pie" to the RIAA. At least now, they can be assured of getting a majority of the sale proceeds.
    • If E-Bay was smart, that would be the exact market that they would persue. Create a small package designed to help Artists rool their own albums and then push the sales.
    • As far as I know, independant artists can sell their music through all the normal normal music services, how would EBay give them a greater advantage?

      • As far as I know, independant artists can sell their music through all the normal normal music services

        Independent artists can't sell through the "normal normal music services" that dial-up people use, that is, Compact Disc sales through Wal-Mart and Best Buy brick and mortar store chains. The major labels pay to rent shelf space in those stores.

        how would EBay give them a greater advantage?

        Even within the realm of fully-paid-up perpetual rentals of digitally downloaded records (it's not really a s

  • I should have applied for a job... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jlleblanc ( 582587 ) <contact@jlle b l anc.com> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:19PM (#9712332) Homepage
    A year ago, we had to do a case study on eBay for a business class. I jumped all over it and told my team that we would suggest independent music sales, due to the fact that eBay already owns the transaction processing services necessary for small payments. Then we could create stores where the bands could sell their swag, etc... avoiding a duplicate of iTunes and other downloadable music services.

    Well, at least we got a good grade for the project.

    -Joe

  • Wait for RIAA response (Score:3)

    by jemenake ( 595948 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:21PM (#9712346)
    What I'm interested to see is if eBay will eventually allow for the sale of downloadable music that is recorded and released without the involvement of record companies. In other words, what if eBay opens the door to taking the record companies out of the loop between the artist and the listener.

    In all likelyhood, the RIAA will crap golden twinkies and try to find some legal means to make ebay sorry they went down this road.

  • Logical impossibility (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Weaselmancer ( 533834 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:25PM (#9712358)

    They're running a six-month test offering downloadable music through authorized sellers, who would have to 'ensure copyright protection for the content and meet service-level agreements.'

    Well, since foolproof DRM is an impossibility...I take that to mean that they have no music for sale.

    Also of note, 'music buyers won't be allowed to resell the files on eBay.'

    ...because they wouldn't be able to sell any in the first place under their DRM terms. QED. ;^)

    • "ensure copyright protection for the content"

      Well, since foolproof DRM is an impossibility...I take that to mean that they have no music for sale.

      No no! You see they are not imposing Digital Restrictions Management systems on customers, they are only asking for copyright protection! And by law all works automatically get full copyright protection from the moment of creation! So what it really means is that they are FINALLY going to start selling DRM-free MP3 files!

      Yahoo! I can finally start buying legal

      • No no! You see they are not imposing Digital Restrictions Management systems on customers, they are only asking for copyright protection! And by law all works automatically get full copyright protection from the moment of creation! So what it really means is that they are FINALLY going to start selling DRM-free MP3 files!

        Ah! I see it now! I'll admit, I was in a bit of a pessimistic mood when I read the original article.

        So, what they're asking for is yet another assurance that copyright will remain i

  • This is Crap (Score:5, Insightful)

    by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi@CURIE ... minus physicist> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:28PM (#9712372) Journal
    First of all - if it is a digital download, shouldn't it be a Dutch Auction (with infinite 'items'). 2nd - Why is there 6+ days to go [ebay.com]? A download sale depends on impulse, not the best deal. I can go to iTunes and preview, buy, and listen in the space of a couple of minutes for the same price as this one 6+days from now.

    3rd - "sellers chosen for the pilot have to ensure copyright protection for the content and meet service-level agreements." If I wrote it, it's got copyright protection. That's what copyright does - protects my work when I create it. Or are they talking about some DRM scheme? It's not clear.

    4th- If DRM is required, how does it get put on? Will someone send me a Windows-Only exe to screw with my track? Do I have to send a wav somewhere? Again not clear.

    Ebay. Stick with what you do. Leave the failing at a Digital Music Store to everyone else.

    • I think they have a HUGE amount of flaws in their system, but I think the sellers chosen for the pilot have to ensure copyright protection for the content and meet service-level agreements.is more of them saying "Sellers chosen can sell other peoples (like Snoop Dogs) shit"
    • Ebay supports dutch auctions and has a "buy it now" feature.

  • Uphill Battle (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ZeroGee ( 796304 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:30PM (#9712391)
    This will be an uphill battle. I-tunes is the dominant e-music source due to the interoperability with the Ipods. The Ipods truly are the "Sony Walkmans" of the 21st century -- their interface is great, and I dare any detractors to try it for a week first before disparaging it. The fact that the Ipods tie in so closely with I-tunes is the reason why I-tunes is successful -- not the other way around. Simply branding a music store "E-Bay" without hardware to back it up will fail miserably, unless their DRM was far more favorable than Apple's (i.e. can burn it unlimited times).

  • Resale of 'license to listen' (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:33PM (#9712405) Homepage Journal
    That would be a concept..

    Since you cant buy and sell content.. Sell 'listening tokens' .. YOu pay to have the right to listen to 10 songs, you choose what you want. When you want new songs, you 'recycle' your tokens..

  • Sigh. Get it for free. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi@CURIE ... minus physicist> on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:33PM (#9712411) Journal
    Um. Great business plan. [com.com]

    Isn't this like what SCO does? Tries to sell something that is given away somewhere else?

  • Slightly OT: Regarding "resales" (Score:4, Interesting)

    by NotQuiteReal ( 608241 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:39PM (#9712432) Journal
    Ok, so part of this new deal is buyers can't resell what they bought. I assume the original license would handle that.

    One thing I have noticed on eBay, however, is that people DO resell physical CDs. So my question is how does the "fair use" of copyright come into play here. Assumming Joe Seller has copied the CD, under fair use, can he keep his copy when he sells the original?

    What If someone steals my physical CD but I still have my high-quality MP3 on my player? Did my right to the MP3 get stolen too?

    etc. Discuss amongst yourselves.

    • This is all really very straightforward... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by mbessey ( 304651 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:58PM (#9712547) Homepage Journal
      "Assuming Joe Seller has copied the CD, under fair use, can he keep his copy when he sells the original?"

      No. Copyright law allows you to make copies *of recordings you own* for your own use. If you sell the original, then by definition, you don't own it any more, and therefore have no right to create or keep copies of it.

      "What If someone steals my physical CD but I still have my high-quality MP3 on my player? Did my right to the MP3 get stolen too?"

      No, again. You still "own" that CD, even if it's not still in your possession. That's what makes the copy the thief has "stolen". So, you still have a right to create and keep copies of the CD. Now, being able to prove that you have the right to that copy is going to be pretty hard if you don't have any evidence that you bought the CD.

      -Mark
      • Copyright law allows you to make copies *of recordings you own* for your own use.

        Bzt. Wrong. That's a blanket statement that is untrue. Neither 17 USC 107 nor 1008 says that, nor does any other part of the law. Both statutes limit what you can reproduce, and neither requires that you own the original copy.

        If you sell the original, then by definition, you don't own it any more, and therefore have no right to create or keep copies of it.

        Bzt. Wrong. Copyright does not include any right of the copyright

    • Ok, so part of this new deal is buyers can't resell what they bought. I assume the original license would handle that.

      Maybe. Did you sign a license agreement when you bought the song?

      I find restrictions on resale to be very obnoxious, and will avoid buying music that has such restrictions. By law (in the U.S.), if I buy a CD (or DVD, or book, etc.), I am allowed to resell it. Copyright law does not give the copyright holder the right to restrict or suppress the secondary market. This is known as

    • Ok, so part of this new deal is buyers can't resell what they bought. I assume the original license would handle that.

      You aren't 'buying' the music, you're 'buying' a license to download and listen to it. All music is owned by the RIAA It is illegal in these united states for an individual to own music, unless he or she wrote it, in which case it's just a matter of time before they hunt you down for 'infringing' on the copyrights of another existing song.

      One thing I have noticed on eBay, however, is th
    • Fair use has nothing to do with selling copies of works that are lawfully made under US law, i.e. original copies.

      That falls under First Sale, which is at 17 USC 109. Basically you can sell, rent, lease, lend, etc. any lawfully made copy as much as you like, provided you bought it. There are some exceptions -- you can't rent music or computer software, but you can sell it if you own it. No special licenses or anything are required.

      Your question is whether you can keep a copy you've made after selling the

  • I don't want to bid on music (Score:3, Interesting)

    by amichalo ( 132545 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @07:39PM (#9712433)
    Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the 'auction' concept for small purchases. My time is worth way more than the few cents difference and if the provider could be different from song to song, that really makes me run the other way screeming.

    The savings would be so miniscule that they out weigh having to manage (1) unexpected pricing, (2) compare/work with multiple vendors.

    For a large purchase or one of a kind item, sure eBay is the eWay, but for this, I give it the thumbd down.

  • How much!!! (Score:4, Funny)

    by _ph1ux_ ( 216706 ) on Thursday July 15, 2004 @08:06PM (#9712594)
    NEW BACK STREET BOYS SINGLE

    Current bid: US $0.00 (Reserve not met)
    Time left: 9 mins 19 secs
    7-day listing
    History: 0 bids (US $5.00 starting bid)
    High bidder: -

    The trash some people try to sell.....
  • A scheme for the resale of "used" e-books. Unlike Kerry, that would get my vote.
  • I've been downloading music for a little over six years now...and they are just trying it out. Geez...
  • eBays's own policies PROHIBIT the sale of "digital only" materials. Their policies state that it has to be a phyiscial item for sale, hence there is a shipping charge standard on every sale form.

    Why not target these sellers and just flood ebay with safehabor reports indicating that these people are violating ebay's policies?

    Even if they ignore half of them, eBay will spend a considerable amount to check out these reports, which will ultimately make them call the experiment a failure.

  • a caution (Score:2, Interesting)

    by borgalicious ( 750617 )
    PayPal, owned by eBay, and mediating many of the eBay transactions has a specific policy that provides NO protection for intangible goods and has a horrific reputation on disputes regarding intangibles. From the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy [paypal.com] section 3.b.3

    The item sold in the listing must be a tangible, physical item or good which can be shipped. All other items are ineligible for PayPal Buyer Protection coverage, including but not limited to intangible goods, services, quasi-cash, gift certificates, and

  • They Might Be Giants (Score:2, Informative)

    by osrevad ( 796763 )
    Apparantly They Might Be Giants( the band [theymightbegiants.com]) have decided to start selling their new CD on their website as pure unadulterated actual MP3s! None of that other crap that has tons of arbitrary usage rights. "You can burn this song to 3 CDs, transfer to up to 2 computers, and listen to it up to 14 times. This song will self-destruct in 5 days, sucker!" Is it a GOOD idea for them to be selling the actual MP3s. Obviously, they realize that a lot of people will emidiately put it on Kazaa. But on the other hand, by
  • Any news on the format to be used? The article merely said that they would be sold through legit channels and would not be resellable. No mention of DRM.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have no problem paying for music downloads, but they MUST be MP3.

    Music Should Be Free (as in Freedom, not Beer)

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