


Ralph Nader Back On The Florida Ballot 161
Makoto916 writes "It's official. The Florida State Supreme court has ruled in favor of 3rd party candidate Ralph Nader. He is now back on the ballot, and just in time since absentee ballots were to be mailed out tomorrow (Saturday). This is certainly a victory for those of us who believe that the country is better off when alternative political voices aren't suppressed."
Alternative political voices? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Alternative political voices? (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0904/173778.html [katv.com]
Re:Alternative political voices? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: Alternative political voices? (Score:3, Insightful)
> I think that's the point. Nader takes votes away from the Democratic candidate, so Democrats want him to be removed because it gives more votes to Kerry.
Unless of course they just stay home in disgust. It's hard to imagine a Naderite voting Democratic after the Democrats forced their man off the ballot.
Re: Alternative political voices? (Score:2)
See what happens when you post before you think?
approval voting (Score:3, Informative)
...and that's why we need approval voting [wikipedia.org], or some similar system. (Yeah, I know I'm being redundant [slashdot.org])
-jim
Re:Alternative political voices? (Score:2)
Actually, all but one of the total media recounts showed that Bush, in fact, won. The one media recount method that showed Gore winning was very suspicious and required awarding Gore many suspect ballots.
I didn't vote Bush in 2000, and I'm not voting Bush in 2004, but saying he didn't win shows ignorance of both the system and the facts. The media recount (that took place well after the election) shows that Bush would have won even if an entire s
"Nader hurt Gore/Kerry", a pathetic excuse (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:"Nader hurt Gore/Kerry", a pathetic excuse (Score:2)
Good question. Let's see... how about them enslaving our grandchildren, and not even for the reward of being slavemaster (evil or not, you can at least respect that). They'll do it because some corporation donated just enough money to the campaign, in all the right, untraceable ways to guarantee them some key election victory. Or maybe because the real powers that be, who keep politicians as lapdogs, finally give the word that it's time for the
Re:"Nader hurt Gore/Kerry", a pathetic excuse (Score:2)
Gore failed, "noise" should not have made a diff. (Score:2)
Re:Gore failed, "noise" should not have made a dif (Score:2)
Your so busy looking for the forest, you've run smack into the tree right in front of you. Odd that you use the 'noise' example, in networking signal noise is a reality that must be minimized, so then you are saying that Nader should have been minimized?
Sure the butterfly ballot had problems, but it
Only Reagan had a majority ... (Score:2)
Re:Only Reagan had a majority ... (Score:2)
So, while Gore got more votes than Clinton or the Bush(es), you believe that he ran a bad campaign. I can't say that he ran a poorly, It wasn't my Campaign, it's awefully hard to make a run for President of the United States, I wouldn't pretend to understand the complexities, but apparently you do. Did Ralph 'Pied-Piper' Nader run a good Campaign? Seems to me, h
Nader is the scapegoat revenge can be taken upon (Score:2)
The only anger in this thread is yours. I am not a green, I have never supported Nader. I am an independent who has voted for both Democrats and Republicans, whoever I thought would do the better job. Nader was never one of those. Reread your posts, you are in denial over Gore's failur
Re:Nader is the scapegoat revenge can be taken upo (Score:2)
playing "what ifs..." is hard and usually pointless. "What if Gore had a better campaign", "What if Gore was President on Sept 11? [moderateindependent.com]", "What if {blah, blah, blah}". Mostly because it's hard to understand cause and effect when talking in such broad terms. You keep saying that Nader had no effect on the 2000 election. You won't even commit to saying that there is even a chance. However, statistical analysis tells a different story. Weather forcasting, Hurricane projecti
Re:Nader is the scapegoat revenge can be taken upo (Score:2)
You have fundamentally misunderstood my first post and the followups. My point is that the election was so close that it was essentially a tie and decided by "noise". Any single element of "noise" including Nader is insignificant compared to the far larger factor, the Gore campaign. Nader may have been the straw that broke the camel's back but focusing on that straw and ignoring the
Nader is Independent in WIsconsin (Score:3, Informative)
Nader has made it onto the ballot here in Wisconsin also (where the polls indicate a very close race), but he is running as an independent here. Unfortunetly, many people seem to have missed that detail and will likely vote for him with the idea that they are voting for a third party candidate, trying to push the numbers up to the that all-important 5 percent needed to reach *real* party status. I've already personally talked to two people who
Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:2)
According to whom? (Score:2)
That forcast, while possible, is not blindingly obvious one way or another [electoral-vote.com] to me, yet. Unless you're one of those assuming that George's brother figured out how to rig it last time, and will figure it out again?
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:2)
Not true. Nader ditched the Green Party, not the other way around. He was almost endorsed by them this year, but eventually they decided to run Cobb instead.
Personally (as a registered Green in New York who's voting for Cobb), I think Nader is an ass for getting on the ballot in swing states.
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:4, Insightful)
I tend to agree about Nader. I don't think he's serious about campaigning for president, only feeding his own ego and perhaps his wallet.
A couple of elections ago, when (as usual) the "third parties" were shut out of the presidential debates, C-SPAN organized a "third party" debate so the candidates would at least have some chance of airing and comparing their views where people could evaluate them all together. Harry Browne (Libertarian) was there, of course, as was Howard Philip of the rather creepy[1] "U.S. Taxpayers Party" (as far as I can tell, they are also called the "Independent" party and I think the "Constitution" party.) and I THINK they had someone from the "Peace and Freedom" (hardcore socialist/borderline communist[2]) party there, and of course at the time the Greens had Nader....oh, wait, no, Nader didn't show up. He was, according to the announcer on the show, too busy promoting his new book to bother.
That kind of tells me everything I need to know about Nader...
[1]- Disturbingly extremist (in my own opinion) bible-pounding, God-bothering rightists. As far as I could tell from the debate, that party's entire platform is composed of two claims:
[2]- Disturbingly extremist (in my on opinion) wealth-hating, welfare-legislating leftists. Kinda helped balance with the other extreme party mentioned above. I'm guessing a lot of European people living in small countries where socialism won't necessarily become Stalinism[3] would tend to like these people
[3]- I still maintain that the degree to which a government can be "socialist" without being oppressive is inversely proportional to the size of the governed population. If California seceded from the US, I think they'd just BARELY be small enough to get away with a socialist government. If the entire US tried to do it on a national level, we'd end up with USSR II. Or so I maintain. I think this is why USAians - even Democrats - often seem "extreme right-wing" to Europeans.
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:2)
What do you mean by 'socialist'? Als
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:4, Insightful)
We are closer to fascism than most people think. Apparently some crazy leader shouting about the evils of the world (could be Hitler, could be Bush) gets people's nationalism at a high, at the same time they erode the rights of citizens. Then all it takes is candidates sponsored by the pharmaceutical/oil/(insert big business here) industry. Remember during WWII Italy was the Fascist Business Republic. Here is a good write up of where we are apparently heading. [fact-index.com]
Oh yeah and Sweden is socalist as well. They have their problems as well.
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:5, Interesting)
Remember that the fascists tried to get General Butler to execute a coup d'etat against Roosevelt in the 30's. The also campaigned to leave Hitler alone. Many wealthy people, including Edward VIII of England, were personal friends of Hitler. These were the people who believed in things like Social Darwinism.
Most of the descendents of these people are now in the GOP. They tend to trend more libertarian except for Corporate Welfare, they believe that by vitue of their wealth, they are better people than the rest of us slobs. They see the theocrats as a tool to be used for their rise to power.
Anyway, here are some articles:
Rush, Newspeak and Fascism: An exegesis [cursor.org]
Neo-fascism and the religious right [findarticles.com]
The Danger of American Fascism [truthout.org]
Facts and Fascism by George Seldes [maebrussell.com]
As wrong as communists are, they're right about one thing, Fascists.
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:2)
I'm intentionally leaving the term "socialist" vague here, and admittedly it's probably not the best term. By it, I just mean a tendency towards government control (both in terms of regulation and in terms of how many services the government insists on running directly itself) centrally, at a nationwide level. Suggestions for a better "neutral" (e.g. not "fascist" or other emotionally-charged terms, since the word I'm looking for would not inherently imply injustice or oppression) are welcome, since by my
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a big part of the Constitution Party [constitutionparty.com] platform, yes. Probably too big. I certainly agree with them on that, but America isn't ready to elect someone as rabidly anti-abortion as they are, so they're pretty much screwing themselves over.
They're also big on eliminating the rampant Constitution violations that the big parties continue to commit without thinking.
They also want to get America out of most foreign "problems" such as Iraq. They believe that America should be
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:4, Insightful)
The purpose of these candidates on the far edges of the spectrum is not to get elected or indeed even have a whisper of a chance; the system from top to bottom is designed to favor the (two?) most moderate candidates. (For example, the electoral college: The fact that winner-takes-all in each state is a moderating influence.)
The purpose of these fringe candidates is, instead, to drum up enough of a base that the moderate candidate that's closer will want to drift over in that direction in order to pick up those votes. In other words, they should judge success not by how many votes they get, but by how much they ultimately move the definition of "moderate".
So don't feel too bad for having to vote for Bush, as long as you answer Peroutka in the polls. The fact that you are being forced to vote for the more moderate candidate means the system is working exactly as it is intended to, for the greater good of the overall population.
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:2)
Certainly, however, a Presidential candidate is NOT the place to start. Third parties, maybe even moderate ones, need a few House seats, then they can go for more interesting targets.
Re:Doesn't make much of a difference (Score:2)
Suppressing voices? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think that not being on the ballot means your political voice is being suppressed. Plenty of people don't make it onto the ballot, but they are still free to express their ideas.
Re:Suppressing voices? (Score:2)
Only so long as those politicial views are categorized as "Republican" or "Democrat." "We've got both kinds of music..." Ever wonder why voter turn-out sucks?
Nader is a natural-born citizen older than 35. IMO, that's all he should ultimately need to be on the ballot.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
1234, i'll start a flame war! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:1234, i'll start a flame war! (Score:2)
Ok so more choices are bad for democracy because it hurts the guy you agree with.. Great way to start a flame war
Re:1234, i'll start a flame war! (Score:5, Insightful)
IMO, this is what is wrong with the 2 parties. They offer us messiahs, not presidents. The republicans tell us we should vote for Bush so he can save us from the terrorists. Pardon me, but if a terrorist was aiming a weapon at the president, Bush would hide behind an innocent person and shout "bring it on" from behind them, just like he's done internationally. His mouth writes checks that the lives of braver men than him have to cash. Then the democrats tell us that we should vote for Kerry so he can save us from Bush and save the world. Pardon me, but Kerry is a professional career politician. He isn't going to save the world, and while he might "save" us from Bush, who will save us from him?
The point I'm getting at is, neither one of these guys offer substance. They offer us hyperbole and fantasy. Let's look at 9/11 and why it happened honestly for a second. Did it happen because Bush got elected into office? Hardly. It happened because of shoddy foreign policy for decades. Foreign policy which was carried out by both republicans and democrats. If Kerry gets elected, is he suddenly going to say "gee, maybe we shouldn't be forcing our will on people on the other side of the globe" and just stop doing what makes people around the world hate us to the point where they will give their own lives to kill some of us? Not a chance in hell. He's going to carry on business as usual and America will continue to be targeted. The difference will be in some domestic policies and the image and type of hyperbole used to justify international intervention.
Please my fellow Americans, you need to shake yourselves out of this stupor. You are not going to save the world. We aren't a nation of supermen. God did not rise us up to benevolently rule the world through violence and economic sanctions. Get over yourselves before it is too late. Please. Come to your senses.
I refuse to vote democrat or republican in this or any election. I encourage everyone who knows that both parties are wrong to research the third parties and decide for themselves who best represents them.
Re:1234, i'll start a flame war! (Score:2)
The point I'm getting at is, neither one of these guys offer substance.
Not quite. Both Bush and Kerry offer a substantive policy for government.
It's just that neither of them will tell you straight out exactly what that policy is.
If either one of them strayed from their handlers' advice on what to say and how to say it, then they'd lose the election.
Re:1234, i'll start a flame war! (Score:2)
They won't be a viable option until you recognize that they are.
I will not vote for an alternative party when what it means in the reality of this election, is that my vote will help Bush. I simply can't. I also have no idea how we could make a multi-party system more of a reality in this country.
This is a good example of what's wrong in this country. In every election you will be filled with a sense of urgency to defeat the "oth
Re:1234, i'll start a flame war! (Score:2)
Well my point here is not to get people who like a candidate to not vote for them, just to get people who feel trapped to wake up and stop feeling trapped. If you like him and think he is the best person for the job, then I say vote for him. It is not my place to tell you who to like and who n
Re:1234, i'll start a flame war! (Score:3, Interesting)
2) The current administration is a fine example of how the right-wing can also grow "big government", so you make no point here either.
Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you really want a victory for alternative policical voices then push hard and jump and down for a democratic preferential voting system. This way you could have 10 or more candidates and the person that was ultimately most popular would win - not the person that splits the least number of votes.
If you had a preferential voting system then you might be discussing the merits of a first vote for Nader instead of worrying about loosing a vote by voting for him. Your second and third votes may be the ones that ultimately count.
As an Australian voter, where everything is Preferential, I cannot imagine having to use such an archaic "First Past the Post" system as they use in the US. I am also amazed there is not a major movement for change there.
If you don't know what a preferential voting system is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting/ [wikipedia.org]
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
I personally hate both Kerry and Bush equally, and have pretty much decided that my vote will go to Michael A. Peroutka of the Constitution party.
Re: Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
> Some of us are pushing for this, particularly those who've studied game theory.
I'm not an expert on this, but it's my understanding that if you list the six or seven properties that everyone agrees a voting system should have, then there's a theorem that proves no voting system can satisfy all those properties together.
Re: Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:4, Informative)
While it is true that no voting system is perfect, that certainly does not mean that all voting systems are equally imperfect. It's hard to see what advantages our current system has over a runoff system.
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:3, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting [wikipedia.org]
John McCain, Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean support instant-runoff voting [wikipedia.org] (a kind of preferential voting). Of course, they're principled so they're always going to lose to the shill-driven jokers we're so used to in this country (not to say that some shill-driven jokers aren't strikingly worse than others).
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
Do you think that the people who couldn't figure out the infamous 'butterfly ballot' would be able to understand a preferential voting system?
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
I'm willing to bet most Americans can figure out "rate these candidates from 1 to 10 in order of preference."
Just explain it. (Score:2)
See, easy.
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
I don't like Kerry. I don't like Ashcroft, which means I don't like Bush. I'm not all that keen on Nader here, the Green Party is just... no, I've got some big philosophical differences with Badnarik, and I don't thump a Bible enough for the so-called Constitution Party. What the hell is preferential voting going to do for me when I don't like any of the options? "This candidate doesn't suck ass as much as that candidate?"
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
Re:Push for a truly democratic voting system. (Score:2)
I don't think that would particularly help, because the underlying problems of a president representing only a single party would still be there. Even if the largest party under instant-runoff has only 30 percent of the vote (or the equivalent thereof), they get 100 percent of the executive power.
Most countries have systems which allow coalition governments [wikipedia.org], which rep
Nader has lost it (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't see how he could get any votes now - he has spit in the face of anyone on the left by courting the worst on the right, but nobody but those on the left could stomach like his views.
Nader has hard row to hoe but he's doing the work. (Score:3, Insightful)
Read Counterpunch [counterpunch.org] articles on Ralph Nader. They've recently published articles on these issues and frame the debate in a more balanced way by examining where the Democrats and Republicans are getting their money from (as well a
Re:Nader has lost it (Score:2)
Re:Nader has lost it (Score:2)
I don't think that he's really changed much about what he's been saying since the last election. He's always been an isolationist kind of guy.
Who needs third parties? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Who needs third parties? (Score:2)
Re:Who needs third parties? (Score:2)
That's an interesting point. However,
Re:Who needs third parties? (Score:2)
Politics is many dimensional but should eventually settle to two parties that split betw
This is certainly a victory (Score:3, Insightful)
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Evil Republicans? (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't it a little peculiar that the Democrats are fighting tooth and nail to keep somebody off the ballot, but yet this gets little to no coverage in the mainstream media? However, can you imagine the shock and revolt the Democrats would spew out if the Republicans were trying to keep a candidate off the ballot?
Now I'm sure the Republicans would indeed do the same thing under similar circumstances, my point here is about the coverage. If Republicans do it, it's evil and it needs to be on the front page. If the Democrats do it, then it's just good ol' fashion politics, nothing to see here folks.
Flame away.
Re:Evil Republicans? (Score:3, Funny)
Regardless of what they say, Democrats and Republicans are eager to pull any dirty trick they can get away with. They are also eager to catch the other side doing the same.
Democrats revert to the "angel act" when they notice GOP succeeding in its attacks.
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Media-government gridlock (Score:2)
And I like it even more when the media and the President are of different parties.
Democratic president? Gimme talk radio and bloggers.
Republican president? nytimes.com will yell "emperor has no clothes!" every day for four years.
"This basis of our government being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decided whether we should have a government without newspapers, or ne
Re:Evil Republicans? (Score:2)
But just like the obvious motives of the democrats, I also point out the motives of Jeb Bush and his appointed staff who are all suddenly eagar advocates for getting the Reform Party on the ballot in Florida.
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/14/Decision2004/Pl e a_puts_Nader_back_.shtml [sptimes.com]
Basically the rule is all politicians suck. Don't try to single out one side or the other.
Re: Evil Republicans? (Score:2)
> But just like the obvious motives of the democrats, I also point out the motives of Jeb Bush and his appointed staff who are all suddenly eagar advocates for getting the Reform Party on the ballot in Florida.
I think it's despicable for the Democrats to try to keep Nader off the ballot in various states. And though I wouldn't call the Republicans' attempts to get him on the ballot 'despicable', it's clearly a case of gaming the system, and a symptom that something is wrong with that system.
Re: Evil Republicans? (Score:3, Insightful)
They know that his presence on the ballot only helps the Republicans.
And, his support is waning so badly, that he doesn't even have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting on the ballot in more than 2 or 3 states without their help.
The Democrats aren't specifically trying to keep him off -- if he had a legitimate amount of support to be ON the ballot, then I don't think the
Illinois state Dems chummy with state Republicans (Score:3, Interesting)
In Illinois, the Democrats control the state government and recently changed the law to allow Bush on the ballot. According to state law, the Republican convention must be held before Sept. 1. The Republican convention was on Sept. 3rd, so it was later than it needed to be to legally allow President Bush to appear on the ballot in Illinois. The Illinois Democratic Party response: Change the law by altering the deadline so that the Republican convention would be within the new deadline (Senate Bill 2123).
No it is not. (Score:2)
There are several ways to fix this (in many countries you have a second round vote between the most popular candidates in case nobody obtains 50% + 1 votes). But as long as you have the archaic, undemocratic electoral college system of indiret election, the participants will have to do this and more in order to advance their cause.
Re:No it is not. (Score:2)
Re:No it is not. (Score:2)
Re:Evil Republicans? (Score:2)
Re:Evil Republicans? (Score:2)
If you want to really see underreported stories, read project censored [projectcensored.org].
This story doesn't qualify, because clearly there is a different angle to it, which is that instead of democrats trying to ge
unsupported anti-Republican allegation (Score:3, Interesting)
That seems like an attempt to achieve political neutrality by conterbalancing your anti-Democrat statements. It is not an actual fact which you have supported with evidence; You gave none.
Republicans did not try to keep Ross Perot off the ballot in '92. Now, that is not proof that they would not attempt to block a third-party candidate in the future, under other circumstances. However, it is the most closely related historical
Vote for what you want -- but consider pairing (Score:5, Interesting)
The votes belong to the voters, not the candidates.
Anybody who wants to vote for Ralph Nader can damn well vote for Ralph Nader, and anybody who doesn't want to, doesn't have to. I think all the prospective Nader voters have been exposed to enough advertising and history by now to make up their own minds whether they prefer "vote for what you really want" or "vote for lesser evil".
Regarding that "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush" meme goes -- that sounds uncomfortably similar to President Bush's statement: "if you're not with us you're against us."
One thing that Nader voters can do is pair up. In the last election, Nader Traders paired up Nader voters in swing states with Gore voters in non-swing states. The Nader Traders are back in action this election.
There's another kind of pairing: if you really want to vote for Nader, but don't want Bush to win, go find somebody who really hates Bush but doesn't want Kerry to win. Make a deal: "I won't vote for Kerry if you won't vote for Bush." Then you go vote for Nader or Cobb, and your buddy votes for Badnarik or Peroutka. The major party outcome is unaffected, and you both vote for the candidate you really wanted -- which helps build the party you really want.
Re:Vote for what you want -- but consider pairing (Score:2)
Re:Vote for what you want -- but consider pairing (Score:2)
I'm suggesting an informal system where more people can securely vote for candidates who are not Bush or Kerry.
Re:Vote for what you want -- but consider pairing (Score:2)
The game is pick the winner, and it only allows one winner, so if you only count people playing, you really are either with someone or against them. Bush's idiotic threats and posturing are entirely different.
Unfortunately, you're right about all the other stuff.
Consider the actual consequences. (Score:2)
Who's the fraud? (Score:3, Interesting)
And how about this? Bush might have missed the deadline to get on the Florida ballot! Read it yourself: http://sptimes.com/2004/09/11/Decision2004/Did_Bu
Vote Third Party Dammit (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm voting third party, and you should too if you care one whit for the democratic process or the future of this country.
"A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush!"
"Vote for the lesser evil."
"Don't throw your vote away."
and the even more misleading: "It isn't throwing your vote away, but it won't change anything."
are all memes I've grown to hate. They all completely miss the point. Vote for the man you want for the job. PERIOD. Because one day, a non-Republicrat WILL WIN.
I'm voting third party, at the encouragement of I.F. Stone, who tells me:
"The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins. In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing--for the sheer fun and joy of it--to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose. You mustn't feel like a martyr. You've got to enjoy it."
I'm voting third party because Bush and Kerry are exactly the same damned thing. And I am not going to let either head of the Republicrat media hydra turn me, or anyone who will listen to me, into some marionette to be tugged about by the memory of 9/11/01.
I'm voting third party because it's the only way I can leave that booth this November without the guilty weight of a near-decade of gratuitous bloodshed heaped upon my heart.
I have suspicions about what things will be like with four more years of these country club politicians. But getting to say "I told you so" is just not worth it this time.
Re: Vote Third Party Dammit (Score:2)
> Vote for the man you want for the job. PERIOD.
No, vote for whatever is best for the country. Sometimes that involves a difficult trade-off between short term best and long term best.
So what is your point exactly? (Score:2)
Your political gymnastics are amusing but stupid.
Re:Vote Third Party Dammit (Score:2, Interesting)
Well said. It makes me feel better that someone else out there is actually thinking of the broader picture. Keep fighting the good fight, no matter how much you're ridiculed over your view.
IMHO, the only "wasted vote" is the one cast out of ignorance. All too often people vote for a candidate simply because their friend, parent, or - God forbid - the TV told them to.
I can only hope that organizations like Open Debates [opendebates.org] will actually succeed and once and for all provide this country with a meaningful alter
Re:Vote Third Party Dammit (Score:2)
This is based on the assumption that most people who vote for Nader would prefer Kerry over Bush. It is not an unreasonable assumption and the main reason the Republicans are so anxious to see Nader on the ballot.
"Vote for the lesser evil."
Given our current "only indicate your first preference" system of voting where it is known beforehand that two candidates will get over 90% of the vote, it is, in fact, the correct choice. Given three candidates A, B, and C, a
Nadir (Score:2)
It is not his fault... (Score:2)
Perhaps people will come to realize this thanks to his and other candidates efforts.
Re:It is not his fault... (Score:2)
Re:It is not his fault... (Score:2)
Very true. Unfortunately the chance of it ever changing seems extremely slim. Its my observation that electoral reform is something most americans have never thought about and are really not interested. There is plenty of stuff on the net like FairVote.org [fairvote.org], ElectionMethods.org [electionmethods.org] but they don't seem to be having much success in bringing it into public debate.
As a foreigner in the US, my few attempts at discussing this with peop
from the horses mouth (Score:4, Interesting)
Nader said Democrats should blame themselves if they are unable to beat President Bush because they are not focusing on the real issues that people care about. He cited as examples universal health care, creating a living family wage and ending the war in Iraq.
``If the Democrats cannot landslide the worst Republican administration in the 20th century they better look at themselves,'' said Nader.
ABQjournal [abqjournal.com]
Re:from the horses mouth (Score:2)
[0]King George II wasn't inaugerated until January, 2001, thus removing all those stupid 2000 vs 2001 arguments, too.
Re:from the horses mouth (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because they don't really want to "end" the war in Iraq -- not any faster than President Bush does anyway.
In fact, John Kerry said that he would have started it himself had he been in office. He just claims that he would have run the war better somehow.
So, you see, both major parties are essentially on the same side of this issue. But since it's the correct side, I'm willing to cut them some slack.
Research is important! (Score:3, Informative)
This is an extraordinary website. I admittedly worked for them at one point. But this site has absolutely NO SPIN!!
Check it out and see for yourselves voters.
An Editoral on This (Score:2)
Hurricane Nader Hits Florida
CNN reported [cnn.com] in the wee hours of the morning today that a Florida Supreme Court decision has confirmed Ralph Nader's spot on the sunshine state's ballot.
I'm not quite sure who I'm more ashamed of, the Democrats or the Republicans. The Democrats have fought Nader's appearance on the ballot every step of the way. They claimed his party had been defunct in the state of Florida for many years, which woul
Re:Certainty doesnt mean what it used to (Score:4, Interesting)
There have been several minority governments; this happens when the winner doesn't garner 50% of the available seats.
In that case, the leading party usually teams up with another party to reach a majority standing in the house.
Anyways, the main point i'm trying to make is that out of all the monority governments none of them have lasted the four years. Every single one collapsed and forced a re-election.
Right now there's a minority government, so here's hoping everyone gets along!
Re:Certainty doesnt mean what it used to (Score:2)
Re:duopoly troubles (Score:3, Insightful)
Third parties in the United states serve as a source of direction for the larger parties. When the little guys start growing, the big guys know it's time to shift their policies to get back the votes-- or fade into obscurity.
The exceptions have been few. In a few cases, a figure of sufficient charisma and political clout has been disatisfied, and sparked a f