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EFF Goes To Court To Fight The Broadcast Flag 287

Silwenae writes "The Electronic Frontier Foundation and nine other organizations including Public Knowledge (PK) and the American Library Association (ALA) have gone to court to fight the Broadcast Flag. The press release sums it up: The brief argues that the FCC has no authority to regulate digital TV sets and other digital devices unless specifically instructed to do so by Congress. While the FCC does have jurisdiction over TV transmissions, transmissions are not at issue here. The broadcast flag limits the way digital material can be used after the broadcast has already been received."
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EFF Goes To Court To Fight The Broadcast Flag

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  • What are the odds? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by njfuzzy ( 734116 ) <[moc.x-nai] [ta] [nai]> on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:49AM (#10451119) Homepage
    What I want to know, is what are the odds of defeating the bill? It is great to see people and respected institutions standing up and saying this is wrong, a betrayal of our rights-- but can they make a difference?
    • by MikeMacK ( 788889 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:54AM (#10451193)
      I'd say they are pretty high. The FCC is clearly out of it's mandate here and I would say the odds of defeating it are good, not on the merits of violation of consumers rights, but that the FCC doesn't have the authority for Congress to do this.
      • by dgatwood ( 11270 )
        The odds are very low. The FCC does have the authority to regulate all transmitter and receiver hardware. That has always been within their purview. They have the right to regulate digital hardware, too, as every computer you buy has been certified by the FCC not to cause harmful interference.

        Sorry, but the EFF is likely to lose if they are fighting it on "digital hardware" jurisdictional grounds. The right way to fight this is to fight it on grounds that the FCC doesn't have the authority to alter th

        • But isn't the reason that they regulate devices that can cause interference is that they are themselves transmitters?
          I don't actually know if they have any authority over receiver hardware or not, but it might only be that most receiver hardware is capable of transmitting in some form (if only via interference.)
        • by dnoyeb ( 547705 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:41PM (#10451773) Homepage Journal
          What? The EFF is not fighting on any "digital hardware" grounds.

          The FCC has the authority to regulate transmitters and receivers. Not any accompanying hardware, except with respect to interference. I agree with the EFF that this mandate is outside of the authority of the FCC.

          I don't understand why you think the EFF is not doing what you claim they should be doing!?
        • by v_1matst ( 166486 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:45PM (#10451808) Homepage
          "every computer you buy has been certified by the FCC not to cause harmful interference."

          right... and that's all. They have to approve the device to not interfere with other transmissions that they govern.

          This is an apples and oranges comparision to what the EFF is trying to limit.

        • by value_added ( 719364 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:51PM (#10451897)
          MikeMacK writes "I'd say they are pretty high."

          dgatwood writes "The odds are very low."

          Somebody please make up my mind for me.
        • by memfrob ( 157990 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:52PM (#10451904) Homepage
          They have the right to regulate digital hardware, too, as every computer you buy has been certified by the FCC not to cause harmful interference.

          Sounds like regulating transmissions to me. Now, when the FCC tells me that my HDD can only boot an FCC approved OS image, or can only store files that have been signed by a corporate entity, then they get the FINGER.

        • by mpe ( 36238 )
          The FCC does have the authority to regulate all transmitter and receiver hardware. That has always been within their purview.

          But do they have any authority over what happens to signals after they have ceased to be freely radiating RF?

          They have the right to regulate digital hardware, too, as every computer you buy has been certified by the FCC not to cause harmful interference.

          That is only the function of the computer as a radio transmitter. It has nothing to do with the function of the hardware as dig
          • by poptones ( 653660 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @02:17PM (#10452753) Journal
            The FCC does have the authority to regulate all transmitter and receiver hardware. That has always been within their purview.

            But do they have any authority over what happens to signals after they have ceased to be freely radiating RF?

            Doesn't matter at all. because the FCC DOES have the right to say "you shall make all receiving devices compatible with this (broadcast flag) device..."

            This ain't new, and I'm surprised the EFF thinks it has even a slim chance with such a play. Apparently no one at the EFF has read their history books:

            The problem was that UHF stations would not be successful unless people had UHF tuners, and people would not voluntarily pay for UHF tuners unless there were UHF broadcasters. Of the 165 UHF stations that went on the air between 1952 and 1959, 55% went off the air. Of the UHF stations on the air, 75% were losing money. UHF's problems were the following:(1) technical inequality of UHF stations as compared with VHF stations; (2) intermixture of UHF and VHF stations in the same market and the millions of VHF only receivers; (3) the lack of confidence in the capabilities of and the need for UHF television. Suggestions of de-intermixture (making some cities VHF only and other cities UHF only) were not adopted, because most existing sets did not have UHF capability. Ultimately the FCC required all TV sets to have UHF tuners. However over four decades later, UHF is still considered inferior to VHF, despite cable television, and ratings on VHF channels are generally higher than on UHF channels.

            The allocation between VHF and UHF in the 1950s, and the lack of UHF tuners is entirely analogous to the dilemma facing digital television of high definition television fifty years later.

            Even fifty years ago the FCC had the power to (and did) regulate receiving devices. They mandated all sets sold with something larger than (I believe) a 13" screen MUST have both VHF an UHF tuners... and it stood, and it worked... just as this latest move will.

            • by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @02:48PM (#10452976) Homepage
              Congress had passed enabling legislation in the form of the All-Channel Receiver Act of 1962.
            • by raehl ( 609729 ) *
              The FCC can say "Any VHF receiver must also receive UHF."

              They can say "Any television receiver must include a v-chip."

              They can say "Any television receiver must receive a broadcast flag, and include the broadcast flag with any signal retransmission"

              What the FCC can *NOT* say is "Any television signal recording device (VCR/TiVo) must respect the broacast flag", as those devices are not receivers. Once the signal is off the airwaves and into wires, FCC mandate ends.

              Now, they *COULD* say that "Any televis
        • by Artifakt ( 700173 )
          "The right way to fight this is to fight it on grounds that the FCC doesn't have the authority to alter the fundamental nature copyright law through their rulemaking"

          I'm very glad you got mod points for this, as it seems both accurate and informative, but it raised another question in my mind.

          A while back, there was a legal decision usually referred to as the "Thor Power Tool" case, that involved the IRS and company accounting/amortization methods. The case had a huge impact on the publishing industry
      • I'ld agree with you. Based on what's indicated in the article, I think the court will rule that the FCC has overstepped its authority. On the other hand, I wouldn't rule out congress passing a measure that would 'restore' this authority when it gets overruled. Especially if it's a Republican congress.
      • What are the odds that Congress will happily enact the necessary law to mandate the broadcast flag if it turns out that the FCC ain't allowed to put it in its regulations?

        /greger

      • The FCC is clearly out of it's mandate here and I would say the odds of defeating it are good, not on the merits of violation of consumers rights, but that the FCC doesn't have the authority for Congress to do this.

        Think again. From their about us [fcc.gov] page they say, "The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) is an independent United States government agency, directly responsible to Congress.">

        Parallel that with the CIA [cia.gov], "The CIA is an independent agency, responsible to the President through the DCI, an
    • by InfoVore ( 98438 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:55AM (#10451211) Homepage
      It is great to see people and respected institutions standing up and saying this is wrong, a betrayal of our rights-- but can they make a difference?

      If people try, maybe.
      If people don't try, never.

      I.V.
    • by jxs2151 ( 554138 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:07PM (#10451376)
      Win or not, we must continue to fight tyranny even in mild forms. The power of government must be constrained on a constant, consistent basis in order for freedom to flourish.

      The FCC is obviously outside of its mandate and that fact will be communicated just by the very fact act of taking to the courts.

      ...but can they make a difference?

      Be not afraid.

    • by JackL ( 39506 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:11PM (#10451422)
      I think the point of the EFF's action is that they are not fighting a bill, but rather an FCC mandate. From one of the linked articles:

      Thanks to an FCC ruling, as of July 2005, it will be illegal to manufacture or import DTV tuners unless they include DRM technologies mandated by the FCC.

      The FCC only has power to regulate transmissions. They can require broadcasters to transmit a broadcast flag but they cannot require television makers to pay any attention to it. That would require a bill to be voted into law by congress.

  • by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:49AM (#10451123) Homepage Journal
    "The broadcast flag limits the way digital material can be used after the broadcast has already been received."

    Does it? Or does the flag just say that the sender set the broadcast flag? The receiver limits the use of the data, or not.
  • fp? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ralph Spoilsport ( 673134 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:50AM (#10451132) Journal
    woo hoo.

    at least top ten....

    Once again - this "flag" will be a problem for the Common Ordinary copy maker, but all it takes is a nice little Time Base Corrector to strip the digital crap out to clean up the signal, and then route that signal into your recorder of choice. Done.

    RS

    • Re:fp? (Score:4, Informative)

      by onion2k ( 203094 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:55AM (#10451206) Homepage
      but all it takes is a nice little Time Base Corrector to strip the digital crap out to clean up the signal

      This is for digital television broadcasts. If you strip the digital information out you'll be left with a blank screen. ;)
  • by Pig Hogger ( 10379 ) <pig.hogger@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:50AM (#10451139) Journal
    ... the US is painting itself in a corner with the broadcast flag.

    They will not be able to export their technology as other countries are protecting the right of their citizens to make private copies.

    Expect the EU to adopt another HDTV standard.

    • Maybe Disney and the other studios are planning on buying a few aircraft carriers...

      In between shooting propaganda movies for the navy, they could use them to "promote" their point of view abroad...
    • by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:36PM (#10451723) Homepage Journal
      Expect the EU to adopt another HDTV standard.

      They have. They've chosen their own modulation and encoding standard. They are NOT the same as the US ATSC HD broadcasting standard.

      Now, the EU can still be cowed into implementing the same thing, much like the software patent vote was manipulated.
    • by sicking ( 589500 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @01:04PM (#10452036)
      Who says that that's not something that they want? Europe and the US has a history of never using each other standards. Just look at PAL/NTSC, NMT/APMS, GSM/DAMPS, Metric/Imperial, 110V60Hz/230V50Hz.

      And these are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There's defenetly plenty more (I think pulsediling were different before we got tonediling). Then there's 802.11 and bluetooth, both has had difficulty getting over the pond (in different directions), though it seems like finally they are.

      Both parties have been equally bad. It's just as often Europe reinventing some existing american weel we the other way around.

      The loosers, as always, are the customers.
      • by mpe ( 36238 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @02:04PM (#10452636)
        Europe and the US has a history of never using each other standards. Just look at PAL/NTSC, NMT/APMS, GSM/DAMPS, Metric/Imperial, 110V60Hz/230V50Hz.

        It isn't quite that simple, PAL is a derivative of NTSC. The French then came up with SECAM. The USA actually signed the Treaty of the Metre (pre Noah Webster) yet has never implimented it, the system actually used in the US is called "English" which is not the same as the Imperial system of measurements.
  • Time to donate!!! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:52AM (#10451155)
    I dontate to the EFF [eff.org] every year about this time, and you shoudl too! Is this not exactly the kind of issue that is near and dear to most every Slashdot reader?

    So dontate [eff.org] whatever you can! Is some small portion of your salary too much to fight for digital rights?
  • by revery ( 456516 ) * <charles@[ ]2.net ['cac' in gap]> on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:52AM (#10451159) Homepage
    I find it highly unlikely that it will be. The Federal Government has been usurping more and more power over the past 100 years (Dems and Repubs) in ways that clearly go against the intent of the Constitution.

    Consider if you will this Supreme Court case:

    The Court's 1942 decision in Wickard vs. Filburn gave Congress the power to regulate anything. In that case, the Court remarkably held that the interstate commerce clause could be used to regulate an individual farmer's wheat production or his family's consumption. The reasoning was that since the farmer grew his own wheat, he affected interstate commerce; otherwise, he might have purchased wheat that had moved in interstate commerce.

    So, in this case, even though the television sets are not engaging in interstate communication, they are receiving a signal that very likely is, and therefore, the government's resposibility to regulate cannot end at reception... or some other similar crap.

    Now I'm depressed...

    --

    Was it the sheep climbing onto the altar, or the cattle lowing to be slain,
    or the Son of God hanging dead and bloodied on a cross that told me this was a world condemned, but loved and bought with blood.

    • by gcaseye6677 ( 694805 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:01PM (#10451295)
      For a number of years, this ruling was used to justify federal regulation of just about anything. In more recent times, however, courts have somewhat limited this authority. The gun free schools act was overturned [edweek.org] in 1995 when the supreme court ruled that the government had overstepped it's authority regarding interstate commerce regulation. Although courts have traditionally sided with the federal government in issues of regulatory authority, there have been exceptions, so it's hard to say what will happen in this case.
    • by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:10PM (#10451411) Homepage Journal

      The reasoning was that since the farmer grew his own wheat, he affected interstate commerce; otherwise, he might have purchased wheat that had moved in interstate commerce.

      That's an ugly travesty of a precedent, deserving to be overturned.

      Next thing you know, bands won't be able to do cover songs because the audience might otherwise have purchased recorded music of said songs that were part of interstate commerce.

      You can tell that even in the 1940's, people were willing to come up with contorted reasoning to justify a commercial policy based on entirely different premises.

      It looks to me as if the EFF has a nice technicality based case.

      But it could be "fixed" by legislation mandating the expansion of the FCC's regulatory powers into any electronic device dealing with encryption, probably under some omnibus Patriot Terrorism/Hacker-Prevention Pedophile Spammer Slammer Act. Such legislation would sail through Congress.

    • by mreed911 ( 794582 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:14PM (#10451458)
      The Court's 1942 decision in Wickard vs. Filburn gave Congress the power to regulate anything. In that case, the Court remarkably held that the interstate commerce clause could be used to regulate an individual farmer's wheat production or his family's consumption. The reasoning was that since the farmer grew his own wheat, he affected interstate commerce; otherwise, he might have purchased wheat that had moved in interstate commerce.

      Much has been written [google.com] about the interstate commerce decision/clause. Here's an excerpt [factmonster.com]:

      Beginning with the Hepburn Act (1906), the ICC's jurisdiction was gradually extended beyond railroads to all common carriers except airplanes by 1940. Its enforcement powers to set rates were also progressively extended, through statute and broadened Supreme Court interpretations of the commerce clause of the Constitution, as were its investigative powers for determining fair rates of return on which to base rates. In addition, the ICC was given the task of consolidating railroad systems and managing labor disputes in interstate transport. In the 1950s and 60s the ICC enforced U.S. Supreme Court rulings that required the desegregation of passenger terminal facilities.

      The ICC's safety functions were transferred to the Dept. of Transportation when that department was created in 1966; the ICC retained its rate-making and regulatory functions. However, in consonance with the deregulatory movement, the ICC's powers over rates and routes in rails and trucking were curtailed in 1980 by the Staggers Rail Act and Motor Carriers Act. Most ICC control over interstate trucking was abandoned in 1994, and the agency was terminated at the end of 1995. Many of its remaining functions were transferred to the new National Surface Transportation Board.


      Suffice it to say that the ICC has been oft-abused in a search/grab for power, and many activities we take for granted in our daily lives are now subject to continuing jurisdiction of the government under the ICC. Do you check email? That email crossed state lines and someone paid for connectivity at both ends... thus the software, keyboard, mouse and monitor you use with your computer are theoretically subject to ICC regulation. Want to use Linux instead of Windows? Want to install SP2 on your Windows box? Maybe Congress will decide that it needs to regulate software distribution and require you to register your use of any updates with them...

      The ICC is a big, dangerous thing in the hands of often overzealous public officials...
    • by PMuse ( 320639 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @02:00PM (#10452601)
      The Federal Government has been usurping more and more power over the past 100 years...The Court's 1942 decision in Wickard vs. Filburn gave Congress the power to regulate anything...

      You'll be pleased to know that this exact point [indystar.com] is going before the court again this year. The Supreme Court will consider whether Congress can ban medical marijuana in California even if it never leaves the state.

      The WWII wheat-quotas-are-OK case (Wickard v Filburn, 1942) is looking pretty weak after the can't-prohibit-guns-near-schools case (US v Lopez, 1995). I can hardly imagine that the Court will force a broad role-back of Congressional authority, but we'll know in a few months or so.
  • Pardon my pessimism (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    >>unless specifically instructed to do so by Congress

    So the MPAA will just send a few more "donations" to congress and suddenly a new law magically appears extending the FCC's powers.
    • You know, I can't help be amused by the fact that one of the Slashdot autolinks from this story is:

      'Best Deals: The Courts"

      So if you need to go shopping for a judge..
    • by Jaywalk ( 94910 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @01:23PM (#10452226) Homepage
      So the MPAA will just send a few more "donations" to congress and suddenly a new law magically appears extending the FCC's powers.
      Maybe, but that's no reason to make their lives easier. The real value of the suit is in raising the issue outside of the geek community. When have you last heard of "broadcast flag" outside of Slashdot? The average American doesn't even know that his rights are being curtailed. The MPAA et al would rather slip this new regulation in below the radar rather than expose it to public view by having to push it through Congress
      • Putting this in front of the court will let the average American know that his rights are being curtailed? Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the average American following the Supreme Court closely, not unless the TV press gives it big coverage. And since the TV press is owned by the media corporations, well, I think you see where this is going. Unless people start watching PBS or begin reading a free-thinking newspaper, nobody's going to care.
  • tricky. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by gclef ( 96311 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:53AM (#10451164)
    Well, the FCC clearly does have some authority over end-user devices: notice the FCC logo on the back of every monitor/TV in the US? There's a reason it's there. Now, their authority (to my understanding, feel free to correct me if I'm full of it) is limited to controlling what the devices *broadcast*, not how they recieve things, but still...if the entire argument hinges on the FCC not being able to regulate TV sets at all (which the press release implies), then they're wrong. If they can make the subtle distinction that the FCC can only regulate what the TV/card *emits*, then they have a hope.
    • Re:tricky. (Score:3, Informative)

      by thedillybar ( 677116 )
      >Now, their authority (to my understanding, feel free to correct me if I'm full of it) is limited to controlling what the devices *broadcast*, not how they recieve things, but still.

      By broadcast, you mean transmit. But read the back of almost any device with the FCC logo you speak of. It seems they have authority over both transmitting and receiving.

      This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) This device may not cause harmful interfe

      • I'm not American, but I've still got this government graffiti on lots of my home electronics here in England, and it's always baffled me. What the hell does it mean?

        (1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.

        "may" not? is it optional? Harmful to who or what?

        "accept" in what sense. If it does "cause undesired operation", then surely that means it didn't "accept" it? What wound no
        • Re:tricky. (Score:3, Insightful)

          by thedillybar ( 677116 )
          >What the hell does it mean?

          I believe this is the FCC's classification of a particular device. They're saying, however you use this thing, it can't cause harmful interference (i.e. you don't have a right to use this device in such a way that will cause harmful interference). They're also saying that you have to deal with whatever interference it receives (i.e. don't complain to the FCC if something is interfering with it).

          >"may" not? is it optional? Harmful to who or what?

          Required. Anyone tha

      • by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:26PM (#10451591) Homepage Journal
        You misunderstand the reasoning for the wording.

        Let's look at the 2 parts in the context of your TV.

        This device may not cause harmful interference
        This says that your TV cannot interfer with anything else - if it does and somebody complains, you have to turn your TV off. No if, ands, or buts. So if your TV is throwing out a spurious emission at 146.52 MHz and thereby is interfering with my ability to talk on my 2 meter radio, upon my informing you of the interference you have to turn your TV off until you get it fixed. If you cannot get it fixed, you cannot use it. Equally, if your TV is interfering with MY TV, and I so inform you, the same thing happens.

        OK, now let's look at the second part:
        this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.

        Why is this here? OK, let's look at a scenario. Your TV has a badly designed front-end, and is interfered with by my transmissions on 146.52 MHz. You complain to me. I check my equipment, and determine that I am not generating any spurious emissions outside of the 2 meter amateur band. Your TV is at fault here, in that it is not correctly rejecting my signal.

        You can *ask* me to stop transmitting. You cannot *order* me to stop transmitting, even though I am interfering with you - my part 97 amateur gear, operating properly in band, trumps your part 15 TV. (in reality, I am going to do everyting I can to help you resolve the problem, but I am not under any legal obligation to do so).

        In short, the second part is to clarify where part 15 stands on the totem pole - at the very bottom.
        • The second part allows the government to jam your equipment when they feel the need. And you may not employ any anti-jamming equipment.

          Televisions and all modern reception devices do lots of filtering to reject noise though. Thin line i suppose.
      • By broadcast, you mean transmit. But read the back of almost any device with the FCC logo you speak of. It seems they have authority over both transmitting and receiving.

        Only to the extent that the reciever necessarily radiates some RF in the process of recieving. Unless they can demonstrate that ignoring the broadcast flag necesarily increases RF emissions, they have no authority over that functionality.

        What this amounts to is Congress and the Bush administration wanting to fulfill their obligations

    • Re:tricky. (Score:5, Informative)

      by GooberToo ( 74388 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:02PM (#10451307)
      Well, the FCC clearly does have some authority over end-user devices: notice the FCC logo on the back of every monitor/TV in the US?

      That's completely different. That ensures one device is not preventing another device from receiving a transmission. Basically, it ensures one device does not interfere with another. Which means, such restrictions exactly fit with the FCC's charter.

      The broadcast flag has nothing to do with it's charter. Never has, and never will, save only by changes in law by Congress. Which is exactly the point.

      • Basically, it ensures one device does not interfere with another. Which means, such restrictions exactly fit with the FCC's charter. The broadcast flag has nothing to do with it's charter.

        But if a TV doesn't respect the broadcast flag, then it's interfering with the station's desire to keep the video private. There we go, everything's hunky-dory again.
  • by jmcmunn ( 307798 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:53AM (#10451173)

    How long will it take for someone to figure out how to strip this flag out using a piece of software on a PC (or hardware or firmware mod on a standalone unit) and then be able to record it without caring if this flag is set?

    I'd bet within days, the first option, and maybe weeks or months on the second. This is not going to help anyone in the long run, same as Macrovision doesn't help anymore when it comes right down to it.
    • This topic has been discussed before, the following link refers to my latest discussion on it here [slashdot.org]
    • by GoodNicsTken ( 688415 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:36PM (#10451711)
      Haven't you figured it out by now? The RIAA/MPAA doesn't really care if a few geeks know how to open up a TV/PC and disable the broadcast protection. They only care when it becomes easy for the average user.

      Think about it, news groups are still out there, because you have to know how they work, how to unRAR a file, burn an image file, or just mount it with Daemon tools.

      Napster was easy and it's gone. Kazaa is easy so they are trying to sue it out of existence and flood it with spoofs.

      They want the average user to only be allowded to do what they choose with content.

      In this case I think they have gone too far. This is basically saying you can't use a VCR to record Digital tv broadcast over public airwaves (yes Public, we own them not they FCC, they only manage them).

      If they need to be protected then DONT BROADCAST OVER PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE FIRST PLACE!

      • Think about it though, the average user is not currently pirating this stuff either. Therefore these measures are aimed at the "advanced user" who will know exactly where to look for info on cracking it...and I can bet they all know how to use newsgroups as well.

        My parents and grandparents are not copying material now, nor will they if/when these news flags are in place. The people who are currently doing it, will still be doing it.
        • by BillyBlaze ( 746775 ) <tomfelker@gmail.com> on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @01:28PM (#10452270)
          Be careful with your nomenclature. Even accepting pirating=copyright infringement, not all copying of TV is copyright infringement. A big part of the reason we're all so pissed is because the broadcast will stop us from using our homebrew PVRs with HDTV for most shows. Yes we're copying, but we're only timeshifting, and the Betamax case says that's legal. And even though with the broadcast flag, most of us would still figure out how to do it, I prefer it when the things I do are legal.
    • by Muerte2 ( 121747 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @01:32PM (#10452302) Homepage
      The problem isn't that this flag will actually stop people from recording/retransmitting/converting any signal. The problems is that it makes it ILLEGAL to do so.

      It's very similar to watching a DVD on Linux. It takes about 5 seconds to install a piece of software to play a DVD on Linux, but everytime you do that you're breaking the law. It's not that it's IMPOSSIBLE to watch a DVD, it's that it's ILLEGAL to watch a DVD on Linux.

      Now illegal in this sense doesn't mean the cops are going to break down your door, it just means that's you have to make a decision to skirt that part of the law.

      So it's more important that we be ALLOWED (under the law) to watch that DVD, or that HDTV signal however we want.

      Especially since that signal is coming in to my house/business over public airways. If it's coming in to my house, and I have no (reasonable) recourse with which to stop it, I should be able to do whatever I want with the signal once it gets there. But that's another argument.

      It's all about rights, not capabilities.
  • by kawika ( 87069 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:54AM (#10451194)
    They probably will get a court to agree and stop the FCC. Temporarily. Does anyone find it curious that Congress hasn't been yelling about the FCC overstepping their bounds? Well, that's because if the FCC is prevented from enforcing the broadcast flag due to lack of authority, most likely the Disney-aligned Congress will give them that authority. It's for our own good, you know, because without those protections the content providers will never let their precious content be broacast in HD and we'll all be looking at blank screens.
    • by sjames ( 1099 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:19PM (#10451513) Homepage Journal

      It's for our own good, you know, because without those protections the content providers will never let their precious content be broacast in HD and we'll all be looking at blank screens.

      Of course, the screens wouldn't be blank for long. Talk about a goldmine for an upstart content producer. The highest resolution out there, populated exclusively by people with disposable income to spare, and all the big fish voluntarily removing themselves from contention. Surely, someone can figure out a way to make money when the red carpet is rolled out like that.

      Naturally, Disney and friends would prefer to poison the well and salt the fields.

  • FCC NEEDS this (Score:4, Insightful)

    by grunt107 ( 739510 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @11:55AM (#10451205)
    For a government group that is losing its relevancy (airwave TV and radio are being trounced by cable/internet/sat. radio), they need to try and branch out into areas seemingly not of their control.
    • Re:FCC NEEDS this (Score:3, Insightful)

      by trentblase ( 717954 )
      This is hardly insightful. Satellite radio? FCC controlled. Internet? WIFI/Fixed Wireless/Bluetooth/Allsortsofgoodies FCC Controlled. If anything we as a society are moving towards MORE dependence on very tightly regulated radio spectrum. Just ask anyone with a cellphone.
    • Re:FCC NEEDS this (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Svartalf ( 2997 )
      Excuse me? If a government group is losing it's relevancy, then the group should be DISBANDED , not branched out into new areas.
  • Stupid Argument (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    The brief argues that the FCC has no authority to regulate digital TV sets and other digital devices unless specifically instructed to do so by Congress.


    OK, so if they win this round look for Congress to specifically instruct the FCC to do so.

    It is as if they don't see that coming...
    • Good. Then we get another chance to fight it, and delay while HD-VCRs/Tivos/etc make it into the hands of the "consumers", who will yell and scream if Congress tries to "take away my VCR!".
  • Bigger question: (Score:5, Interesting)

    by untaken_name ( 660789 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:00PM (#10451272) Homepage
    Why does the FCC have any jurisdiction over speech in the first place? "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech..."
    Apparently, however, it's okay for Congress to make an agency to do it...
    Of course, we accept it as though it's the most natural thing in the world for someone else to be responsible for our speech.
    Now, I realize that the FCC does more than censor free speech. However, a lot of what they do is not un-Constitutional. Did they simply regulate access to the airwaves (not based on content of speech), I wouldn't have a problem with them. I do, however, have a large problem with some bureaucrat passing judgement on my words.
    Note: I am not opposed to censorship, only government-backed censorship. Network owners should be free to censor whatever they wish. I should be able to censor my own publications. However, the government has no right to do so.
    • by Peyna ( 14792 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:23PM (#10451547) Homepage
      The basis for allowing the FCC such power is that it is broadcast communications; and therefore since it is bouncing off the head of every one in the country, they should be able to control the content of the communication.

      It's not necessarily akin to standing inside someone's home yelling obscenities in their ear, where they have no choice but to listen to you; but there is plenty of room for argument in cases of broadcast communications as opposed to subscription based ones.

      The FCC has very limited power over subscription based communications. (Anyone else notice Comedy Central started airing completely uncensored movies late at night?)

      • "The basis for allowing the FCC such power is that it is broadcast communications; and therefore since it is bouncing off the head of every one in the country, they should be able to control the content of the communication."

        Why? Where do they get the right to tell Americans what they can and can't broadcast?
  • by lightspawn ( 155347 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:00PM (#10451290) Homepage
    The broadcast flag is my only chance to gather up the resolve to stop watching TV. Cold turkey. Please don't take that away.
  • I applaud the EFF for fighting the FCC. If the EFF can establish that the FCC only has powers specifically prescribed by Congress (as opposed to having any power unless it is specifically circumscribed by Congress), then the EFF will establish an awesome legal precedent that will pave the way for folks like Howard Stern in the digial era. He and others like him need not fear the FCC again -- at least in the domain of digital communication.

    Remember that Stern, himself, paved the way for Bill O'Reilly. B

  • Mod Chips (Score:2, Interesting)

    1st our Playstation's, then our X-boxes, then, in the same vein, our TiVo's -- We'll just have to mod-chip our TV's now too.
  • Disolve the FCC (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kevlar ( 13509 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:05PM (#10451351)
    This is a perfect example of the FCC overstepping its original charter. Its sole purpose was originally to regulate radio spectrum to prevent interference. Now it wants to regulate VoIP, nasty words and whether or not one should be able to use their VCR. This is just getting completely out of hand. I'm sure its one of those govt departments that has an obscenely huge budget.

    You suck Michael Powell.
  • thank god... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by buhatkj ( 712163 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:09PM (#10451400) Homepage
    all i gotta say is thank god we have the EFF. Without them, i think the internet and largely the USA in many ways would have become a corporate police state LONG ago.....

    While we are at it, how about a challege to the existance of the RIAA and MPAA under antitrust law??? Everybody knows they use these organizations for price-fixing.....defeats the purpose of capitalism....
  • October 14 ? (Score:2, Informative)

    by l2718 ( 514756 )
    Follow the link to the legal documents [eff.org]. They are dated "October 14, 2004"!
  • Analog hole (Score:4, Informative)

    by Gothmolly ( 148874 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:25PM (#10451583)
    If I can hear or watch it, I can record it. So what if its not digital? Other than instant fast forwarding, I'm not really impressed with DVDs over VHS. If it gets ridiculous, people will just sample off movie screens or TVs, the Gubmint won't be able to stop that. All you've done is created newer, more interesting types of piracy.
  • by gwn ( 594936 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @12:31PM (#10451653)
    Come on people! Just turn the monster off, tv that is. This is our chance to reclaim our minds, lives, families, communities and country.

    It is the medium used to controll us, numb us and turn us into the machines the "man" wants. ...well someone had to say this... right?
    • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @01:13PM (#10452121)
      Like it or not, it's also the medium by which the populace at large gets most information to base decisions for things like voting on. There is some fear (though I admit it seem farfetched) that a broadcast flag could be used to limit what is reocrded... imagine not being able to record and analyse the state of the union, or debates for example.

      In reality it will mostly be used for football and broadcast movies to start with (both of which I can do without), but it is a slippery slope.

      I only watch a few hours of TV a week, but I am still trying to help fight this. If the technical people who do not undrestand the dangers now do not, then it will be much worse for everyone later!
  • by BrookHarty ( 9119 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @01:40PM (#10452382) Journal
    I find it funny that the copyright issue is forced usage not applied usage. The angle everyone attacks the copyright issue is from the "Copyright holder" not the public.

    The copyright holder has the right not to put his copyrighted work on our public airwaves without the broadcast flag. But under a free market, someone else will step up and fill that role.

    We let the content providers dictate what usage we must agree too, when in reality we should force them to our regulations. If they don't like the regulations, they can still protect their copyrights and not release. But its a true free market, someone else will step up and do business. Copyright is the smokescreen to total control of distribution.
    You can have 100% open distribution and protect Copyrights, the copyright owner just doesn't participate.

    Example.
    Sony: We won't show our new movie on HDTV if it doesn't support the broadcast flag.
    Cable CO: You have that right, we will go with someone else's movie then.

    And you just opened the market and have no regulation, in fact that's de-regulation, and people still have copyrights over their content.

    Our society has it backwards, we allow businesses to dictate the ways and means of how they do business with the public. This is what creates mono or duopolies. We over-regulate the protection of the businesses, and the consumers pay for it. Why should business's have special interests? It's a free market, well, in theory.

    BTW, FCC Chairman Michael K. Powell wants the market de-regulated, he understands it. He showed it in the non-regulation on WiFi, he should use it for HDTV also. Wish I could ask him, humm.

    -
    USA [idea.int] ranked 114 worst voter participation by country.
  • by jhines0042 ( 184217 ) on Wednesday October 06, 2004 @02:36PM (#10452900) Journal
    On the topic of listening to cell phone transmissions a friend of mine likes to say "If it passess through my body, I have a right to listen to it".

    I would argue that the same is true for the broadcast flag. If you beam it to my house, I can do with it what I want.

"Engineering without management is art." -- Jeff Johnson

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