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Music Media Businesses Apple

Labels Push for a Unified DRM Standard 258

thejoelpatrol writes "Bad news for Apple fanatics but good news for all the crazy slashdotters who want an iPod but feel dirty using Apple's DRM: the labels are getting together and insisting that online stores standardize their DRM methods. Being the providers of the music, the labels clearly wield a lot of power, but so does Apple: without iTunes, the online music business is next to nothing. Will Apple give in? Not if they can help it -- they're on top of the world. Before anyone messes it up, AAC is an open format, while the Fairplay DRM standard is not."
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Labels Push for a Unified DRM Standard

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  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:09AM (#10478026)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Re:Very good (Score:5, Informative)

      by InternationalCow ( 681980 ) <mauricevansteens ... m ['ac.' in gap]> on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:21AM (#10478047) Journal
      Not at all. Do you honestly believe that the labels are doing this for your (the customer's) good, to enable you to choose the mediaplayer and format you want? Then you're truly naive. Labels are greedy, greedy and greedy, in that order. The only reason that they are banding together on DRM now is that they are afraid that they will lose control (=revenue) over their digital music offerings to Apple, Microsoft or some other digital content provider. Which would serve them right.
      • by VidEdit ( 703021 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:52AM (#10478121)
        One thing is clear, because Apple's iTunes Music Store has been successful, Apple has a great deal of clout during negotiations. If the music industry can make on line music a commodity with uniform standards, the music industry would be back in complete control.

        Already, the music industry is getting full of itself with the success of iTMS. $.99 per track is no longer enough money for them. Rather than looking at the success of $.99 tracks, the music industry sees the success as a chance to raise prices, but Apple managed to stave them off. They don't want that to happen again.
        • Apple wields no such clout as to what you purport here... true they might have about 50% marketshare or so, but as this [http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/8407] article (Your 99c per iTunes download belong to the RIAA) explains, Jobs admitted that Apple makes no revenue from the online download service they provide... so that the only real benefit Apple directly makes out of the service is it market's their ipods... the second point is the fact that apple commands no real clout when it comes to negotiations with
      • Re:Very good (Score:5, Insightful)

        by lachlan76 ( 770870 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @06:09AM (#10478157)
        But this way we only need to break one DRM scheme.
        • Funny? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          The ironic thing is that that's insightful.

          NO DRM scheme can ever work, so long as we retain control of our computers. You cannot simultaneously grant people access to the work and yet preclude it. And if we control our computers and are given any access to the work, it is merely a matter of expending the effort to extract that work in some form.

          It's nothing but an artificial restriction, which is hardly unusual in the realm of intellectual "property," and it's why they need the DMCA to marginalize thos
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Records labels are doing a very good thing here. Thank god Real Networks saw this, and acted. All any of these 3 out of 4 companies haft to do, is license one and others DRM schemes, then develop software that allows them to decrypt the others DRM scheme into pure PCM and then convert the song with the others DRM.

      OpenMG to Helix
      Helix to OpenMG
      OpenMG to WMA/Janus DRM
      Helix to FairPlay
      FairPlay to Helix
      WMA to OpenMG
      WMA to Helix.
      OpenMG to FairPlay
      FairPlay to OpenMG
      WMA to FairPlay
      FairPlay to OpenMG
      WMA to FairPla
    • Re:Very good (Score:3, Insightful)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 )
      "We shall all rejoice!"

      YEah!!! Only one technology to crack!
    • Re:Very good (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ScrewMaster ( 602015 )
      ... but the good news is that, once this "unified DRM" is put into place it only has to get cracked once, which will make Rip, Mix, Burn almost as convenient has having no DRM at all. If the RIAA were as smart as they think they are, they'd push for as many wildly different encryption schemes as they could. Even if each particular scheme isn't particularly secure, by using a bunch of them it would make life more complicated for people wanting to listen to their own music, I mean, steal intellectual proper
      • I think we should get away from actually believing that a 15-year-old boy in Norway sat down and decoded the media industry DVD Content Scrambling System.
        A technician from Xing Corporation passed the confidential trade-secret information for descrambling the signal to 'DVD Jon' who wrote a front-end interface in Linux for this information and uploaded his program to a Linux distribution site.
        If you think that a 15-year-old could just sit down and decode an industry encryption standard, then you shoul
        • by timster ( 32400 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:40AM (#10479676)
          Personally, I think we should get away from actually believing that a college student in Finland sat down and wrote an operating system.

          A programmer from IBM passed the confidential trade-secret information for emulating UNIX to "Linux Tovald" who uploaded the program to an FTP site.

          If you think a college student could just sit down and emulate an industry standard operating system, then you should go work for The O'Reilly Factor and not spend so much time trolling, troll.
    • Why are they picking on Apple's proprietary DRM and open format? Microsoft uses a proprietary DRM AND proprietary format. So does Sony. And there's no other major DRMed formats other than those three. AAC is the least of the three evils, since it's the only one with an open format! (WMA, Sony's format that I forgot the name of, and AAC) Why not pick on Microsoft FIRST, or Sony, then Apple? Why single out Apple?

      Most music stores are WMA- one is AAC- and they pick on the AAC one? Did Microsoft br
    • What I am really hoping for is DRM being controlled from only 1 company who has a financial interest to use it to maintain a monopoly and lock out competitors. That would be awesome!

      Only then when a company dictates a future rather than the people can standards finally be ready to take over. Ask any PHB or CIO?

  • by Max Romantschuk ( 132276 ) <max@romantschuk.fi> on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:15AM (#10478037) Homepage
    Even though I do understand that content creators wish to protect themselves I believe that no DRM is the way to go.

    The main thing is to focus on having a well working and simple delivery model, and to make sure the content isn't over-priced. DRM ultimately pretty useless, since it can always be broken eventually. If it's simpler to buy the content from a reputable store than getting it over P2P the model will work.

    Tim O'Reilly wrote and excellent piece on the subject in 2002, and it still applies today: Piracy is Progressive Taxation, and Other Thoughts on the Evolution of Online Distribution [openp2p.com]

    PS. I'm sure a lot of you will disagree, but at least I can claim to be a content creator [besonic.com] myself...
  • by Maestro4k ( 707634 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:19AM (#10478042) Journal
    While iTunes is the most succesful online music store out there, and the iPod is a huge success, with the studios joining together to insist on a standard DRM Apple could end up the big loser here. The studios are likely to not give a damn about how big iTunes and the iPod are, they certainly haven't given one about killing off CD singles, moving to an online music market (it took Apple to really change their stance) or even to consider alternatives (such as compulsary licensing) to solve the file-sharing problem. If Apple refuses to budge, or even license, their DRM to competitors, the studios may just standardize on something else, forcing Apple to change to it if they want iTunes to still have licenses to sell music from those studios.

    This should be interesing, Apple is very good at being independent and wanting to be different, but this looks like that strategy won't work out. They must keep the studios happy or the studios will happily take away the music.

    Personally I wonder how this would affect older devices (like iPods) that might not be able to play the standardized DRM. The article makes no mention of this, and while I can't see Apple in particular (and other digital music player makers) wanting to make their older products incompatible, I really would not be surprised if the studios could care less if that were to occur. If it does there will be quite a few incredibly angry folks out there!

    • Personally I wonder how this would affect older devices (like iPods) that might not be able to play the standardized DRM. The article makes no mention of this, and while I can't see Apple in particular (and other digital music player makers) wanting to make their older products incompatible, I really would not be surprised if the studios could care less if that were to occur. If it does there will be quite a few incredibly angry folks out there!

      Imagine all the iPod owners having to upgrade their devices,

    • by midifarm ( 666278 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @06:28AM (#10478192) Homepage
      First of all 90% of all studios are completely independent of any record label. It's the labels and the RIAA that is concerned with DRM. I'm not even sure the artists themselves care about DRM, they just want to be fairly compensated for their artwork.

      what it will take for all of this to get resolved will be something similar to what Peter Gabriel is trying to develop. Perhaps a union of sorts to bring the labels to their knees. For the most part, other than distribution and PR the labels aren't needed for anything. If musicians learned to think and operate for themselves, this might be a moot point.

      A wonderful example is Ani DiFranco. Whether you like her music is irrelevent. She's 100% self promoted, from albums to concerts. It's her production and her money and it's worked out very well.

      I'm just waiting for an established giant to buck the system. When U2 or Aerosmith abandons their label and promotes their upcoming release via online distribution only (George Michael is doing this) the others will follow suit. Just hire a PR agency and collect a check, only a much larger one.

      Peace

      • A wonderful example is Ani DiFranco. Whether you like her music is irrelevent. She's 100% self promoted, from albums to concerts. It's her production and her money and it's worked out very well.

        Righteous Babe [righteousbabe.com], Ani's label, now carries other artists [righteousbabe.com] as well. She has indeed shown that you can do it the "right way" and still be successful.

        Of course (and this is just my opinion), being an incredibly talented musician also helped her early on. A -lot- of people heard about her from people who had seen her p

      • I really love most of Ani DiFranco's music, but the one very confusing thing with her is that while her CD cases basically give permission to copy her music, her label is still a member of the RIAA.

        ( http://www.riaa.com/about/members/default.asp -- "Righteous Babe" is on the list.)

        I'm terribly curious why a label started by a successful and totally independent artist feels the need to be a member of a customer-hating semi-evil organization like the RIAA.
    • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @08:04AM (#10478470) Homepage
      I for one am happy to see chaos interfering with DRM crap.

      And actually things are looking pretty good for maintaining that DRM chaos. There is no way in hell Microsoft is going to give up it's own DRM system and adopt the Apple system (even if Apple offered it), and Apple has absolutely no reason to give up their own system. They are THE dominant player in the feild. Why the heck would they want to switch to somthing incompatibile with their huge user base of iPods?

      If the RIAA tried to force the issue they seriously risk an anti-trust smackdown, they are already treading that line pretty close with their current iron fist over online sales.

      I also find it quite comical that the RIAA is whining about Apple prices being too low. The marginal cost of providing downloads is miniscule. Lower prices would drive up volume. Hell, selling non-crippled formats would drive up volume. Many independant artists are willing to accept lower prices per download, hell, there are many artists happy to get their music out there for free. Any attempt for the RIAA to strong-arm Apple into raising prices would also be likely to raise anti-trust issues.

      Hmm, now that I think about it having the RIAA jack up download prices might be a good thing. Its just that much more pressure for people to move to non-RIAA DRM-free cheap or even free music.

      -
    • There is no need to fight it. Everyone keeps forgetting that software/hardware is like water, sure you can do things with it, but it has a sneaky way of getting around, over, under, through, or flat out evaporate away from ever attempt to ever truly control it. Look at all the past attempts to standardize anything by the industry, the end result was always the same. The end users everyone either hacked it, worked around it, or flat out left it for something else leaving the control freaks high and dry.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:20AM (#10478046)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by HangingChad ( 677530 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @07:49AM (#10478396) Homepage
      some labels have complained it has priced tracks too low, making it difficult for them to make a profit from them

      Wow, where are my hip waders? A friend of mine is VP of artist development at a record label. He seemed to feel that if they could sell CD's for five dollars each without producing the CD media, in his words, "We'd be rolling in money."

      Using 12 tracks as an average for most CD's at a dollar a track makes it already hugely profitable for record companies and the first thing they want to do is try to squeeze you for even more. Okay, figure most people don't download whole CD's, they buy single tracks. They're still making a ton of money.

      Amazing that it never seems to be enough for them. Then to come out and lie about their profit margin so brazenly just astounds me.

    • by Anonymous Coward
      From the article (emphasis mine)

      While Apple has been widely praised for bringing online music into the mainstream market, some labels have complained it has priced tracks too low, making it difficult for them to make a profit from them.

      For myself, I find the music store tracks priced too high because they contain any DRM. Consider that I can go to a used CD store, pay $8-9 for an album which is comparable to purchasing same from the iTunes music store, I get a permanent lossless copy without any DRM, al

    • by argent ( 18001 ) <peter@nOSpAM.slashdot.2006.taronga.com> on Saturday October 09, 2004 @07:59AM (#10478447) Homepage Journal
      popularise legal downloads among consumers

      Most of my downloads have no DRM at all, but they're perfectly legal. They're in MP3 format direct from the artists.

      some labels have complained [Apple] has priced tracks too low, making it difficult for them to make a profit

      Most of the 99c I pay to iTunes goes to the label, and their marginal cost for that purchase is zero. As near as I can tell, the only people making a profit from iTMS are the labels. And it's not at all certain that they'd make more profit at a higher price: they may make more money at a lower price, and they must know it... they're smart enough to have learned basic economics.

      So, yes, it's all about control... but it's not necessarily about making more money directly from music sales. They want to make sure they are the ones pulling the strings so that online music distribution doesn't give artists a way to bypass the labels, and keep most of the 99c you pay iTMS for themselves.
      • "......As near as I can tell, the only people making a profit from iTMS are the labels......"

        I was in a band whose catalog was recently added to the iTunes store and I was wondering if people are actually downloading any of the music? If so, how much money is being made? And who is getting it? Will I get any?

        I remember everyone stood around laughing and joking one day back in the 80's after we signed a record deal with Beggars Banquet, and also everyone stood around laughing and joking a few months la
  • How long is it... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Bin_jammin ( 684517 ) <Binjammin@gmail.com> on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:23AM (#10478051)
    before the record labels are sued as being a monopoly? I imagine the indy labels all rising up in a class action suit, but I mean seriously, it's been 5 years of announcements like this on an average of once a week or more, I want my music, I want it free (of restrictions) I'll pay a resonable price for decent music I enjoy listening to, and if I want to buy something on CD I'll go to a used CD store. I'm not just on music burnout, I'm afraid I've burned up all the fuel I've used to burn the pyre of hatred for the acts of RIAA and MPAA.... someone help, I need a transfusion.
    • by bersl2 ( 689221 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:27AM (#10478064) Journal
      Once again: a monopoly by itself is not illegal; abusing one's position as a monopoly is.
      • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @08:14AM (#10478511) Homepage
        Once again: a monopoly by itself is not illegal; abusing one's position as a monopoly is.

        Exactly. And the RIAA cartel has been consistantly and systematically abusing their monopoly power. They pretty well exterminated interet radio. They imposed a total restriant of trade against any online sales at all for half a decade. They imposed uniform and opressive terms on online sellers (Apple got a way with slightly less oppressive terms because Apply fought against any DRM at all and the RIAA could not afford an anti-trust smackdown for imposing a Windows-only monopoly on music sales. These slightly less opressive terms are also why Apple is the only semi-sucessful service.) The RIAA has been hit for CD price fixing, more than once if I'm not mistaken. I beleive they have also inflated download costs, and they admittedly intend to inflate them even more. I'm sure there are other examples, but I think I've made my point :D

        -
  • by RAMMS+EIN ( 578166 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:24AM (#10478053) Homepage Journal
    It's interesting that the media industry, commonly accussed of not "getting it", does see the light on the issue of standards. This might even lead to DRMed content to be usable on open platforms! I think this is a Good Thing.

    And before anyone starts "but the DRM will be used for all kinds of draconical restrictions": remember that you don't _have_ to use any particular product. If you think it's worth it, use it and don't bitch. If you think it's not worth it, use a different product and don't bitch. You make the choice, you get the pros and cons.
    • by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @06:05AM (#10478150) Homepage Journal
      " If you think it's worth it, use it and don't bitch. If you think it's not worth it, use a different product and don't bitch. You make the choice, you get the pros and cons."

      One should not express demand? Right. There's no competition going on here. Because of that, it's not a case of "use another product and quitcherbitchen". It's a case of "this is what you can get, tough shit." If people are not getting what they want, they have every right to complain. Sooner or later, somebody will come along and realize there's demand to fill. If they don't, then it's just accepted and blammo, no innovation.

      Sorry bud, short of piracy, complaining's all we got.
    • This might even lead to DRMed content to be usable on open platforms!

      DRMed content is already as compatible with open platforms (I assume you mean something like "open systems" or "open source operating systems") as it will ever be.

      The essence of open systems is open interfaces and protocols. If the interfaces and protocols are standardised or publically documented, you can implement your own version of an application that interfaces with them, open source, closed source, or something in between, that do
    • by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @09:00AM (#10478733) Homepage
      First you say that the industry should standardize on a DRM standard to impose, and then you have the GALL to say we should not complain about draconical DRM restrictions because "you don't _have_ to use any particular product"?! That "If you think it's not worth it, use a different product and don't bitch"?! You just got finnished saying the industry should impose a monopoly on the EXACT SAME DRM CRIPPLED CRAP. You say "You make the choice" after EXTERMINATING any choice!

      Pardon my flamage, but it's bad enough when someone advocates DRM crap. It is absolutely infuriating that you have GALL to advocate a DRM monoculture monopoly AND take the insulting tone that people shouldn't "bitch" about it becuase they they have a CHOICE!

      I'll tell ya what, you can eat in the kitchen and get kicked in the nuts, or you can eat in the dining room and get kicked in the nuts, or you can eat in the backyard and get kicked in the nuts, or you can even eat in bed and get kicked in the nuts. If I'm in a good mood I may even let you go out to eat at McDonald's and get kicked in the nuts. If you think it's worth it, eat there and don't bitch. If you think it's not worth it, eat somewhere else and don't bitch. You make the choice, you get the pros and cons.

      God forbid they actually sell the product the public wants - plain old MP3's they can play on any platform, including open platforms. That you can play in WinAmp or anywhere else. Why the hell should anyone buy their crippled products when they can get non-crippled MP3's on P2P that are VASTLY more functional? It's not that P2P is "free", it's the fact that MP3's are not crippled crap. What kind of idiot company tries to compete by offering a crippled product?

      Bah! I'll probably get modded Flame. I don't care. What good is being Karma capped if you don't vent a well deserved rant once in a while? RAMMS+EIN don't take it too personally, I'm tired and cranky and felt like DRM-venting.

      -
    • With one DRM standard, it is not going to be a choice. It is going to be DRMed content or nothing.

      And before you go "tough it's their product", may I remind of you of what the Universal Declaration of Humans Rights [un.org] has to say about the matter:

      (1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

      Mark that: Freely participate. It doesn't say that the choice of not listening is OK. It says that i

      • You know, I had rather they leave out the DRM, too, but I don't think the UDHR gets in their way here. After all, it does not prevent you from listening to music. It only prevents you from playing DRMed music. You can still go to concerts, listen to the radio, listen at friends' places, play the music on approved players, make your own music, etc. etc.

        The UDHR does not say that you should be allowed to participate in every cultural activity, free of charge, in any way you please. The copyright holders have
        • I do not agree (unsurprisingly... :-)) The copyright holders never had any such right. They had a limited right to control reproduction, not to decide what happens to reproduction. They are pretending they got more rights, and by designing DRM system, they can enforce rights they never had.

          In the US, you are probably stuck, but here in Norway this was very clearly spelled out in the verdict that acquitted Jon Johansen: These are rights that copyright holders never had, it is illegitimate to try to rob the

  • Do Tell... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Rie Beam ( 632299 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:24AM (#10478054) Journal
    "While Apple has been widely praised for bringing online music into the mainstream market, some labels have complained it has priced tracks too low, making it difficult for them to make a profit from them."

    But they are making a profit. My question is, how much? Just once, I wish I could see a quote like this backed-up by a statistic (one that makes sense, mind you).
    • Here's a figure for you. According to this analysis [independent.co.uk], "... owners have doubled their share of royalties, even though the marginal cost of manufacturing has fallen to almost zero."

      It seems the greed factor is running just as high as ever in the music industry, even in the face of a radically changing environment. These guys seem to think that it's their God-given right to continue to make more and more money while providing less and less value to customers.

  • Creative Commons (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Writer ( 746272 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:30AM (#10478069)
    They should use Creative Commons [creativecommons.org] for part of a standardised DRM scheme. The whole concept of having XML data describe different licensing methods so that they can be understood by software would be the way to go.
  • Already messed up (Score:5, Informative)

    by zurab ( 188064 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:36AM (#10478082)
    Before anyone messes it up, AAC is an open format, while the Fairplay DRM standard is not.

    I don't know what "open" means in this case, but AAC is patent-encumbered. If you want to distribute an encoder or a decoder you have to license those patents [vialicensing.com]:

    Who needs to license MPEG-4 AAC patents?

    An MPEG-4 AAC patent license is required for manufacturers or developers of complete (or substantially complete) end-user encoder and/or decoder products, or for manufacturers/developers of component encoder and/or decoder products that are provided directly to end-users.

    So, in a way, the submitter already messed it up.
  • by klaasb ( 523629 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:43AM (#10478104)
    The rest should follow the leader.....

    After that Apple should open up their DRM to others.

    They made this mistake before an lost to the pc....don't make the same mistake twice.
    • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) * on Saturday October 09, 2004 @06:50AM (#10478212)
      They made this mistake before an lost to the pc....don't make the same mistake twice.

      So you are saying apple should make the same mistake that IBM made instead. Apple has somewhere from 3%-5% of the market share for Desktop Computers sold. While IBM has about the same market share now. Sure their platform is more popular but they made the mistake and their product became to command and to much competition. Apple has been pretty consistent with the 3%-5% market share for many years. Unlike the most PC guys who Shoot up to 25% they stay there for a few years then shoot down to 1 or 2% Gateway anyone? Apple is able to keep control of their product set and the technology they can go to and they are not bound to staying with one platform. Like the old macs to the PowerPC to the 64bit PowerPC. Any other PC manufacture would kill themselves doing this, but it works for Apple, the reason is because they didn't open up their Computing specs and allow anyone to use their OS (Well they did for a while but apple lost a Lot of money from that).
    • Lost what to the PC?

      My Mac connects to the PC internet... I can see PC websites, read PC email, play PC MP3s, chat with PC users, plug in PC USB peripherals, use PC cards, open up a PC xterm, and run apt-get install qemu and run fucking Windows. What exactly did Apple lose? (Oh, I know this! You "lose" if you don't have 100% of the market. Right.)

      (Tangent: And by PC do you mean PowerPC, the processor running this? Try again. It's called Wintel or x86 or something. Not PC. PC means personal compute
      • "My Mac connects to the PC internet... I can see PC websites, read PC email, play PC MP3s"

        You can't buy music from mycokemusic walmart sympatico real msn napster virgin etc. etc. - you get the picture!
  • i'm all right, Jack (Score:3, Interesting)

    by pelorus ( 463100 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @05:57AM (#10478132)
    I guess the problem is that the ignorant media are saying that Apple's DRM is "proprietary" (which it is) but implying that other online stores are not (because they use WMA-DRM).

    Of course the labels want a standard - a standard they control. they want to be able to raise the price when they want and sue anyone who breaks it. Sadly it's exactly this sort of promise that Ms will make for them.

    So, AAC is open but patent-encumbered. Not a problem. The file format doesn't really matter anyway, the issue is the DRM. And by it's nature it's going to bug people whatever happens.

    In my case, I'm not worried. I can use Apple's DRM'ed files and I don't need to worry about it. Definitely a case of "I'm all right, Jack"

    M

  • Apple is fucked (Score:5, Interesting)

    by melted ( 227442 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @06:04AM (#10478148) Homepage
    Record labels have nothing to lose here. Revenues they get from Apple are laughable.

    Apple, however, can't:
    1. Make tracks more expensive - nobody's gonna buy them
    2. Share the DRM format - bye bye iTunes revnues
    3. Implement stronger DRM - nobody will buy tracks
    4. Tell the record labels to fuck off - where are they gonna get the music then?

    I think they're royally fucked.
    • Re:Apple is fucked (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anita Coney ( 648748 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @06:54AM (#10478218) Homepage
      Every single thing the guy says is true, exactly how does that make him a troll?!

      I know it's hard to admit to the Apple converted, but Apple has NO power in the music industry. The record companies will drop Apple in a second for any reason.

      First, as Melted pointed out, the music industry really doesn't earn that much money from iTunes.

      And here's a second reason, that's even more important. The music industry does not want ANY service getting too popular. If one service ever got popular enough, major artists could sign directly to Apple and sell their music WITHOUT signing to a major label! The music industry will sure to bring down ANY service that starts to get that much power.
      • by argent ( 18001 ) <peter@nOSpAM.slashdot.2006.taronga.com> on Saturday October 09, 2004 @07:43AM (#10478376) Homepage Journal
        If one service ever got popular enough, major artists could sign directly to Apple and sell their music WITHOUT signing to a major label!

        And they think they're going to stop that from happening by cutting the heads off the tall poppies?

        Once online distribution gets big enough, all you'll need is *one* non-major label contracting with a significant fraction of the online distributors and that label will *be* a major.

        The only way the music industry could pull themselves out of this is to start their own services and refuse to contract with any independents like Apple. And if they do that, it doesn't matter whether Apple uses "industry standard DRM" or not: they have to fuck Apple, AOL, Real, the whole shooting match or lose.
        • What you seem to be missing is that the music industry owns nearly all the popular music in the world. Thus, when and if Apple gets too big, the labels could simply refuse to provide their vast catalog of music. Or provide it at an extraordinary price.

          All online music stores depend on new hits AND on the huge back catalog of songs.

          • when and if Apple gets too big, the labels could simply refuse to provide their vast catalog of music

            Yes, yes, that's exactly the leverage they would apply to knock down the tall poppies.

            What I'm talking about is, when online music gets too big, whether it's iTunes and the seven dwarves or a dozen companies with no more than 20% of the market each, they won't be able to pull their catalog from the online music market as a whole. It'd be too much of their business.

            At that point any small label... whether
            • Let's assume that right now, the top 100 artists signed exclusively to iTunes.

              If that happened, the music industry would pull their entire catalogs of music from iTunes. All of the artists' current and prior hits would still be owned by the music industry, iTunes wouldn't get them. iTunes would have to wait for those one hundred artists to come up with new material to release AND pray that there was a demand for them.

              The artists would have to pray that radio would still play them even though they do not
              • Let's assume that right now, the top 100 artists signed exclusively to iTunes.

                I think you may be misunderstanding what I posted. I wrote: "when online music gets too big they won't be able to pull their catalog from the online music market as a whole". Obviously they have a lot of leverage right now because online music sales are a tiny percent of the total, so they could pull out of the whole business without it having any significant impact on their bottom line. But that's not going to remain the case,
      • Re:Apple is fucked (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Alsee ( 515537 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @09:09AM (#10478782) Homepage
        The record companies will drop Apple in a second for any reason.

        Actually the RIAA was fairly desperate to get Apple to sign on, that's how Apple was able to get the RIAA to budge a tiny bit and allw them slightly less oppressive DRM terms.

        Why was the RIAA desperate to get (and keep!) Apple? Because the RIAA has been walking a careful line to avoid getting seriously smaked down for anti-trust abuses and collusion. Not only were they colluding to impose essentially identical and oppressive terms, but they would have effectively imposed a Windows-only restraint of trade. They were DESPERATE to maintain the illusion of competition.

        -
    • Well I disagree with you I still dont think you deserved that troll moderation.

      You must under stand large businesses are often very stupid in terms of finance. Here is a story from the old mainframe company that use to be really big and is now dead. A man from the accounting department goes to the sales man I want you to focus on selling more of the high end units because there is a higher revenue. But said the guy in sales I can sell a lot more of the smaller model and make more profit. But the acounti
    • Re:Apple is fucked (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Lars T. ( 470328 )
      The revenues they get from Apple are laughable - all the way to the bank. And how exactly are the record labels going to benefit from Apple (and all others online stores, because all your reasons aply to them as well) stop selling music online? And you think Apple is fucked?
    • I disagree... Apple has done something unique. They have gotten people in the habit of "paying" for music with the iTunes and iPod.

      Just this week Balmer of Microsoft was trying to scare the record industry with FUD surround iPods and how iPods were jam packed with STOLEN MP3's, never mind the iTune sales. So, according to Balmer logic, if the RIAA/Music companies dumped Apple the iPod would be full of 100% stolen MP3's since there would be no place to get legal music anymore.

      Note: The act of rippin
  • There are still other options.

    I for one am a Magnatune [magnatune.com] customer and find that this is all music I need. Creative Commons doesn't mean it does suck. The fine folks over at Blender chose one Magnatune artist for their SIGGRAPH demo reel [blender.org]. The rest ain't shabby either.

    Try Cargo Cult [magnatune.com], Curl [magnatune.com], Brad Sucks [magnatune.com] or their shoutcasts [shoutcast.com] for starters.

    If you chose to buy, you set the price. Money is evenly divided between artist and label. Download options include wav, flac, vorbis and mp3.

    Sure, I still buy the odd CD. But

  • by GuyFawkes ( 729054 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @07:06AM (#10478239) Homepage Journal
    .at least that is the impression I get from reading your replies.

    For example, I bought Deep Purple on vynil, several times cos they got fucked at parties, then I bought it several times on cassette, cos the tapes got chewed, then I bought it on an indestructible cd, and it died, then mp3 came along.

    The music industry have NEVER EVER EVER been about selling music.

    What they have ALWAYS sold and we have ALWAYS bought was the MEDIUM, eg vinyl, cassette, cd red book, whatever.

    In the new digital age there is essentially no medium, only the data itself.

    DRM in ALL ITS FORMS is quite simply nothing other than a DESPERATE (for failure = bankruptcy) attempt by these companies to impose pseudo medium characteristics onto medium free digital data.

    I don't know why nobody gets this.

    It's not just the RIAA, it is all big media business, hollywood as well as music biz as well as publishers as well as anyone who'se stuff can be distributed as digital data.

    Talk of this version of drm vs that version of encoding versus this methods of copyright protection is all bullshit, because it is missing the point.

    NOTHING LESS than imposing pseudo physical properties (the scratched vinyl, the chewed cassette, the skipped cd) onto digital media will satisfy these bastards.

    Because anything less means their revenue stream crashes, permanently.

    Wake up, this is essentially an American Big Media Corporation tea party vs the rest of the world and its consumers, you cannot afford to give these bastards even a nanometer.

    America will end up as a digital cultural backwater, with everything inside its borders DRM'ed up the wazoo, and everyone outside the borders sticking 2 fingers up.

    And this shit less than 24 hours after a post about the BBC (or rather hackers at the beeb before their bosses get tech savvy and twig) pushing for a open source codec in the community which by definition is not going to meet the needs of those who seek to make a fat living selling copy after copy after copy of the same thing to you, claiming to be selling you the media, but in fact merely peddling the medium itself.

    wake up FFS
    • America will end up as a digital cultural backwater, with everything inside its borders DRM'ed up the wazoo, and everyone outside the borders sticking 2 fingers up.

      That would probably be the best result, actually, because after a few years of that the laws enforcing DRM will go the way of the ITAR restrictions on encryption, and in the meantime we'll get a massive infusion of new international music and films through the grey market.

      More likely, though, Europe will roll over. They're trying to roll over
  • Unified Rights Management, or everything similar to it, has ALWAYS been shitty. Look at the past. The Ill fated DIVX debacle is a prime example. The DIVX dvds always looked shittier than their regular dvd counterparts and always lacked special features due to the overhead of the extra DRM built in. Just look at the copy protection on some dvds, it actually degrades the quality of the music in a lot of cases. I don't really care about DRM, as long as they come up with some way of not A) screwing the cons
  • by CropCircleSystems ( 602867 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @08:00AM (#10478454) Homepage
    All DRM as applied to the current market of devices are just security through obscurity. The "labels" can't have their cake and eat it too. You make a standard and whoops, you no longer control what happens to the content. DRM is a pipe dream. It's fundamentally flawed to think you can ultimately protect something from being copied while it can still be played. They should keep quiet and be happy that the more seperate obscure formats can delay the eventual open-source-then-soon-made-dmca-contraband release of each. The only way to have a "standard" drm is to delegate some government bureau as the authority to sell a propietary playback component to a select few very large tech corporations, which make the then only legal playback devices. And I only said it would be standard, not effective. We saw for how long that idea worked for dvds' css decoding keys. The only possible effective DRM method would require such a central bereau to issue UUIDs of some sort to the large enough online media retailer companies, with which the downloads of such a SocSecNum tracked sale will be permuted at the highest threshold of the digtal media format's quality level (wasting some bits that the codec could be using in order to sell you an inferior quality recording) so they could ultimately catch someone by finding an illegal copy and being able to reference when exactly who sold that track to whom. Of course this isn't necessarily effective DRM its just makes infraction prosecutable. Of course, to copy, people would have to lower the quality to below the threshold that the fingerprint can be identified or mix enough legit copies to obscure the fingerprints. And of course since anyone in the legal supply chain is a potential for corruption or leaks, each link in such chain would have to be fingerprinted in order to be effective, so as to compound the compromising of the quality.
  • by ljavelin ( 41345 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @08:17AM (#10478519)
    Here's a summary of the article:
    • Apple is doing very well with iTunes
    • Apple sets a USD 0.99 maximum price
    • Industry wants to sell at a higher price
    • Providing alternative DRM on the iPod will let the record industry create an independent music store for the iPod
      • An industry-controlled store could exclusively offer different music selections to iPod users, like "the next Britney Spears"
      • An industry-controlled store could sell their product at any price... most notably, a price significantly higher than Apple's cap of USD 0.99



    The industry HATES Apple's $0.99 price point. If they could charge more, they would.

    Of course, the industry could license Apple's DRM! And the license fees would likely be very very inexpensive. But Apple isn't likely to license their DRM without a stipulation that songs must be less than $1.00.

    Yay Apple! I'm no Apple fan, but this is the GOOD THING FOR ALL... even if you're NOT an iPod owner!
    • (Even though you say it's a joke, the moderators took you seriously.)

      > but this is the GOOD THING FOR ALL

      Single Vendor media Lock-in is not a good thing at all, it's a TERRIBLE thing, for both the record companies and the consumers. It's only a good thing if you are an Apple stockholder.

      "Only Apple Propretary Crap can save us from higher prices" is bullshit. Common sense says just the opposite, that Apple's iPod installed base would allow them to charge more than other vendors with crappier players.
  • While this is a strange development and I cannot predict what will happen, Apple still has the ability to use veiled threats and coercion. Apple has made it extremely easy for any band/group to record their own music, it would be simple for Apple to work directly with bands and handle publicity, this could ultimately cut the labels out completely. With the digital market moving the way it is actual distribution of cds is going to falter. Apple could probably very easily distribute songs in multiple forma
  • Thanks, Microsoft. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by reidconti ( 219106 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @09:01AM (#10478736)
    Here's what happened:

    Microsoft, whispering into RIAA's ear..
    "You know that Apple DRM has been hacked, and blah blah closed system, blah blah, doesn't support artist's rights, blah blah, Windows Media Miracle Solution!"

    RIAA:
    "Good point."

    Dead iPod

    Microsoft: Profit!

    Go shove it. As soon as they try to screw us out of affordable/iPodable online music sales, we'll go back to stealing.
  • what planet do you come frome? DRM sucks, it's a way to get prices as high as possible.
  • by yeremein ( 678037 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @09:16AM (#10478813)
    Apple, which makes the popular iPod portable music player, has insisted on using its own propriety format for songs downloaded from iTunes music store, while rival sites use alternative technology developed by Microsoft.

    However, the decisions have caused havoc for consumers - tracks downloaded from iTunes will only play on an iPod while tracks downloaded from rival services such as Napster, My Coke Music and MSN will not.

    Why is the recording industry overlooking the obvious solution? Dont' use DRM at all!

    Seriously. No form of DRM that allows you to listen to the music will prevent it from being digitized. Everything is already available in unencumbered formats through file sharing networks.

    Get it free and unencumbered online, or pay to get an inferior product that you can only listen to on a handful of platforms, and that can disappear at will. And they're wondering why people still trade files online?

    All DRM does is punish the honest users. I'd buy music online if it wasn't DRMed.
  • Case Study... (Score:4, Informative)

    by MadMacSkillz ( 648319 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @09:22AM (#10478846) Homepage
    I am also in the camp that would like to see copy protection gone, even though I am a so-called "content provider" myself.

    I recorded a CD and released it online. I also allow some of the tracks to be downloaded for free at MacIdol. And here's what I've found...

    As I have made more tracks available for free downloading, CD sales have INCREASED. I think I know at least one reason. We all can recall an artist that we sorta liked on first listening, but then liked more and more as we listened more and more. When you allow several songs to be downloaded for free, you increase your chances of this happening. If people dig the music enough, they might order the CD. If they don't, then you've lost nothing. But they still have your "free" songs out there and they have friends, and you never know.

    And instead of releasing the worst songs from the disc for free, I released what I thought were the best songs. I wish big artists would do this.

    I'm in line to get the CD into iTunes, but the waiting list to get in is long, so it can take months for a little guy to get in. But I just see iTunes as another way to get exposure. Once the CD is on iTunes, I will still allow free downloading of some songs, because I really believe it will help, not hurt, CD sales. My freely downloadable songs are located at:

    http://www.macidol.com/jamroom/bands/999/music.php [macidol.com]

    • Re:Case Study... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by NtroP ( 649992 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:18AM (#10479560)
      I listened to (and downloaded) a couple of tracks from your "Florida Songs" album and just purchased CD. Good stuff!

      I think it's great that independent artists have the means to produce their own art and distribute it without having to deal with the Music Mafia.

      I wonder if iTMS would allow an independent artists to stipulate that they wanted to release their music in non-DRM AAC format or even Loss-less format through iTMS. It would be great if they offered a whole section devoted to "open/indy artists" who were offering their content in this way.

      I know that I for one would frequent that section often, if only because I believe in supporting "the good guys".

      Are you definitely going to be on iTMS? Once you are on it, is getting your second album on it easier?

      Keep up the good work!

      • Re:Case Study... (Score:2, Interesting)

        Glad you liked it! My CD will definitely be on iTunes, but they won't say when. It can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 3 months to get into iTunes, if you're an independent artist. 3 months is a long time, but I really can't complain - I'm just happy they're willing to carry small independent artists like me.
    • I just downloaded your songs and I have to tell you this - I loved them! I can't afford to buy anything right now, but as soon as I get some moolah, I will. For now, I'll give you what I have in abundance - my appreciation, both for your music and your ideology.
  • Um... no. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @09:47AM (#10478986)
    "good news for all the crazy slashdotters who want an iPod but feel dirty using Apple's DRM"

    What part of "I don't pay money for DRM" don't you understand? I don't care where in the equation the DRM came from, I will not pay money for either DRM software or the DRM hardware required to run it.

    The only "exception" I have to this rule is with DVDs: I'll buy a DVD so long as it's not published by a member of the MPAA, and even then I play it on a region-free DVD player.
  • Good news??? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by KFW ( 3689 ) * on Saturday October 09, 2004 @10:23AM (#10479218)
    >> Bad news for Apple fanatics but good news for all the crazy slashdotters who want an iPod but feel dirty using Apple's DRM: the labels are getting together and insisting that online stores standardize their DRM methods.

    Um, how is this good news? Apple's DRM is actually fairly innocuous in practice. I don't feel the least bit dirty using it. Do you honestly believe that something foisted on us by the labels will be more end-user friendly and less proprietary? /K
  • Easy Way (Score:3, Funny)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @11:17AM (#10479550) Homepage Journal
    How about they all unify on one certain DRM standard, that will be absolutely interoperable among all players, without any key-distribution headaches, extra bandwidth, or market friction: NONE. It's backwards compatible!
  • by b17bmbr ( 608864 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @12:01PM (#10479789)
    download drm'd aac songs, export them to cd audio, then rip the new cd. no drm. lossless. sounds great to me. downloaded digital music is not going to be the absolutely highest quality. it takes $1000 stereo system to hear a tiny difference in quality of a $0.99 song. holy crap. apple's drm is the least invasive and lest restrictive. would you rather microsoft's drm?
  • I mean to say, Apple Computers should buy Apple Records (the one the Beatles started, the one that sued them a couple of times) so they can start publishing and marketing for indie labels and individual artists. I think they would do pretty well, and they could take or leave the big companies' stuff.

    The only reason the big music guys want total control over distribution is so they can guarantee a return on the monstrous investment in marketing that their hit-based model demands. Niches are totally beyond t
  • SDMI Anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by buckminster ( 170559 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @02:07PM (#10480433) Homepage
    Well, they sort of tried this on their own a few years back with SDMI. When was the last time you heard anything about SDMI?

    Now that they've failed to deliver their own industry standard DRM they want tech companies to deliver one on their behalf? Given the failure of the SDMI working group it seems highly unlikely that an outsider will ever produce a scheme the labels can buy into.

    Like it or not, iTunes is the closest anyone has come to this.
  • by macslut ( 724441 ) on Saturday October 09, 2004 @02:16PM (#10480509)
    Labels don't want a unified DRM, what they want is *any* DRM that they can use to directly sell to consumers themselves. They can't use Fairplay, which rules out iPods. So unless they're going to go the Doomed to Fail Sony route of providing a whole soup to nuts system, they *need* an open DRM so they can bypass Apple and Microsoft and sell directly to consumers. I would rather have the labels die a quicker death.

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