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Music Media

How Sony's HD Audio Player Falls Short 359

Posted by timothy from the let-them-count-the-ways dept.
Mr_Silver writes "Sony's new MP3 based HD player (the snappily titled NW-HD3) is reviewed over at head-fi.org. Unfortunately it can't remember where you last were located when browsing, you can't list all the songs by an artist, 1.5 hours to transfer 2100 songs (instead of the iPod's 15 minutes) and a wall of noise in the output. Final conclusion? 'If there was a way I could return this thing, I'd do it in a second.' So close, yet so far." Update: 12/14 00:35 GMT by T : Not quite so fast: As forums.minidisc.org Administrator Christopher MacManus writes, it turns out that (as the threads below this review reveal), "The reviewer discovers that the unit he had is defective as someone else employs one and there is no hiss issue. Furthermore, the software woes he experienced are related to him employing JAPANESE software on an English operating system. Sonicstage 2.3, which he needs to use the unit, is now available in English."
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How Sony's HD Audio Player Falls Short More

How Sony's HD Audio Player Falls Short

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  • what were these guys thinking? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Poleris ( 811180 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:17PM (#11076926) Homepage
    honestly - how do people turn out such a faulty product? it seems the hardware would be the hard part - why is the software so shoddy?
    • honestly - how do people turn out such a faulty product? it seems the hardware would be the hard part - why is the software so shoddy?

      I know, and it doesn't look like Microsoft is getting any better...

      wait, whats that? Oh, I'm sorry! Wrong company! Never mind!

    • Re:what were these guys thinking? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:54PM (#11077218)
      Because the people in charge are more worried about DRM than user interface, and because they design software by committee.


      -- A Sony Employee

      • At one time Sony was a true innovator. Legend goes that Mr. Morita (sp?)- then CEO of Sony - put his head on the block in order to get the first Walkman into manufacturing. A legend was born.

        They had other, great, intersting (remember the electronic picture frame?) and innovative products. But that's quite some time ago.

        Since Sony purchased CBS and Columbia pictures this company went apeshit.

        It nowadys seems to be run by a bunch of paranoid, MBA'd marketing droids with neither a knack for innovation, nor

        • It nowadys seems to be run by a bunch of paranoid, MBA'd marketing droids with neither a knack for innovation, nor a clue what the customer wants.
          Oh, they know what the customer (what the Suits call the "consumer" or "cash cow") wants. They just decide that, because the lawyers are jumping up and down and screaming blue murder and the media sorts are having aneurysms over letting the unwashed masses actually use the stuff they by in the way they want, the customer can't have it.

          Sony's engineers are still

    • Re:what were these guys thinking? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:09PM (#11077333)
      I think the MP3 player industry is just crazy. Seriously, its just run by loons. My original Archos 6 gig was a very simple device. I would *gasp* make folders and put songs in them. Every other device I've owned had some special client software with some fancy synch crap.

      It blows my mind that mp3 player developers think the user is so stupid that a simple copy and paste is beyond them, thus they must help them will these badly done client apps.

      The worst is the Neuros. If an mp3 doesnt have an ID3 tag, it wont even show it in the damn "mp3 browser" part of the client software. Its exactly like the file doesnt exist. You have to find that file and manually edit the ID3. There's not even a n "unknown songs" category so I can do this in the client by looking at the filename. Not to mention, the only way to add songs is to use the client. If you copy a file over via USB, the device can't see it until the client updates its little database.

      I hear people complain about their client software all the time. Crashes, too slow, etc. Do they even still make devices that act like hard drives?

      • The worst is the Neuros. If an mp3 doesnt have an ID3 tag, it wont even show it in the damn "mp3 browser" part of the client software. Its exactly like the file doesnt exist. You have to find that file and manually edit the ID3. There's not even a n "unknown songs" category so I can do this in the client by looking at the filename. Not to mention, the only way to add songs is to use the client. If you copy a file over via USB, the device can't see it until the client updates its little database.

        Use NDBM [sf.net], a

      • I agree about client software. Especially ones that run only on Windows and then only on certain VERSIONS of windows. Argg...
        Although the smarter companies are catching on. I just bought an iRiver player that has a UMS firmware available on-line. To a PC it just looks like a portable thumbdrive. Now I just drag and drop songs in the file browser.

      • Re:what were these guys thinking? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Grishnakh ( 216268 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:37PM (#11077556)
        I'd really like to get a portable MP3 player for use at work, on airplanes, etc. But I just haven't seen anything that even meets my bare minimum requirements:

        1) Must play Oggs
        2) Must work with Linux
        3) Must be durable and reliable
        4) Must have at least 20GB

        Ideally, I'd like to have a player that has the following features:

        5) Can upgrade hard drive to larger capacity, using a standard (laptop probably) hard drive, not an overpriced special-order one from the manufacturer
        6) Can connect to home network by ethernet
        7) Can connect to stereo with SPDIF and RCA jacks
        8) Doesn't require funky, annoying software to transfer new files (though optional software for extra functionality is ok, as long as it runs on Linux). As an addendum to this, can be used as generic HDD storage device when connected via USB.

        Most players fail miserably on requirement #1. The Rio Karma seems to come the closest to meeting most of my requirements, and actually inspired several of them with its innovative dock which has ethernet and RCA jacks. However, a simple google search will show that it has an absolutely terrible reputation for reliability; I've never seen an item with so many people complaining about it breaking. Apparently, it has a problem with the hard drive dying, and its ultra-short warranty period doesn't help here. So for all its nifty features, it fails to meet basic requirement #3.

        Maybe I should design my own MP3 player and market it, much like the guys at SlimDevices did with their very successful SliMP3. However, since there are already established players in the market, it's unlikely I'd be able to compete effectively against them, especially when so few people actually care about getting products that are durable and reliable these days, and would rather buy something with a fancy brand name.

        I predict this Sony MP3 player will be very successful, even though it doesn't work worth a damn. There's millions of consumers out there who would happily shell out big bucks for a piece of moldy bread if it just had a Sony emblem on it.

        • Re:what were these guys thinking? (Score:5, Informative)

          by skiflyer ( 716312 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @09:03PM (#11077766)
          Have you checked out the iRiver HDD players? I can't speak for the 300 series, but I have the 140... and well let's go through the list...

          1,2,3,4,8 it satisfies.

          5 I spose you can do, but it's not a standard HD.
          6 Not by ethernet, but if you connect via USB it just shows up as a normal harddrive, so you can do what you want from there
          7 No, but it has standard mini out (obviouslly, plus optical out... so really you're all set there)
      • This is somewhat obvious, but: iTunes is definitely better than copying files manually.
        This is especially true if you stay in iTunes-land: You rip your CDs with iTunes or buy songs from the ITMS and it automatically adds all the correct ID3 name tags. iTunes doesn't deal well with missing ID3 tags - it will just plop everything in the "unknown artist" category.

        Why is iTunes better? iTunes provides a database of music and keeps the files organized on the disk in the background for you. I would naturally ass
    • Let me just say that this is the experience of one person, using a Japanese version of the product, and exactly one sample. The audio problems could be a sign of a defective unit, not a design flaw. Anyone who would make a buying decision based on one person whom they don't know should think again. The interface nitpicks could of course be cured with a simple software update.

      In fact, further down that thread, someone says their own unit doesn't have the hiss. This is the only showstopper I really see here.

  • HD = hard disk (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    MP3 based HD player

    Damn two letter acronyms in article summaries.... I was wondering what MP3 had to do with high definition.

    HD == hard disk, in this context

    I'm glad newspaper reporters don't write this poorly yet.

  • It takes.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dj245 ( 732906 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:18PM (#11076943) Homepage
    ...A special kind of sadistic bastard to make a portable music player that doesn't play MP3 files (as most previous Sony products did). Sadistic bastards generally don't make stellar products when their main concerns are pushing file formats.

  • How do things like this make it past q&a? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by chroot_james ( 833654 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:18PM (#11076944) Homepage
    I often wonder how companies don't notice things like what's listed for how it falls short... I guess companies just rush it out the door instead of spending at least a week having random people use it an list complaints... shame.
    • On the outset it looks odd, but if you consider your own job, it begins to make sense. I don't think i've ever had a job, regular or contract, that invovled all of the following: 1. Talented Management 2. Financial Resources 3. Clearly Outlined Plan or Goal I've noticed that typically at least once is missing, if not all three. I think we look at it the opposite way. With the massive-sized companies of now-days how is it that they manage to actually get a compelted product to the shelf and still mak
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • someone up the chain said "no" for whatever reason?

        The reason is usually ego. It effects everyone no mater how smart they are, usually the smartest one have the biggest ego. So when the request goes to the guy who came with the unpopular design his ego gets in the way he will naturally get defensive towards the change. It happens every where things like vi vs Emacs, Linux vs xBSD. People don't want to show that they made a mistake and will hide the mistake.
        • While I agree with your theory, I don't agree with your examples. With things like vi vs. emacs, or Linux vs. BSD, there's more at work besides just ego. For one thing, followers of these items tend to be pretty passionate about them, but they didn't actually design them. They merely selected them. But more importantly I think, the competing items simply have different qualities that attract different people. vi is a much smaller and simpler editor than emacs, and works in a completely different way.
      • I actually prefered the original Xbox controller. All others are too small and give my hands real crampiness.

        Am I the only one that thought a controller thats actually bigger than your hand was a good idea?
        • No. I also prefer the larger controller. Especially after buying RF controllers that were not only smaller, but had radically different sensitivities for the joysticks -- screwed up all my fine motor control habits. Now where I used to rule, I get creamed. :(
    • isn't it QA, as in Quality Assurance, and not Q&A?

  • Only Advantage (Score:2, Interesting)

    by dretay ( 583646 )
    The only advantage I can see to getting this is that it charges off usb. I hate the fact that my 4th gen iPod will only charge off of a firewire port (although the included wall adapter is a really cool feature). Also, does anyone know if the SONY product can be used as a harddrive? The review said that you had to use their software to transfer songs, but it said nothing about how you could transfer files and things.
  • I'm guessing they made the MP3 sound bad so that people would think ATRAC would be the better sounding format.

  • Uh-oh (Score:5, Funny)

    by bennomatic ( 691188 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:20PM (#11076961) Homepage
    Too slow to load, can't list songs by artist, wall of noise. Lame.

    Now I've done it; I've doomed the thing to be wildly successful!

  • On one page I see an advert for a 40GB IPOD that can hold 15000 tracks for only $399

    On the adjacent page I see that these tracks only cost me $0.99/each

    My math says that's $14,850 to fill the thing up.

    I've only got a hundred or so albums and it would be nice to carry them around with me, but getting them into the IPOD or SONY HD3 or whatever and indexing, is a royal PIT@. Going out and finding all that music and buying it AGAIN at the 99 cent music store is also a PITW (pain in the wallet).

    Why the hell
    • Are you kidding/trolling?

      there are many CD ripping apps out there that will rip/encode your cds and fetch track info from the net... then copy it to your player... I ripped all my albums in a factory line one afternoon...
      • there are many CD ripping apps out there that will rip/encode your cds and fetch track info from the net...

        I prefer to do it with shell-scripts and then add the track information using a Perl script that fetches the information from..... Amazon.com.

        Bwa ha ha! The irony!
    • I've only got a hundred or so albums and it would be nice to carry them around with me, but getting them into the IPOD or SONY HD3 or whatever and indexing, is a royal PIT@.
      The iTunes software will automatically index it for you. Ripping "100 or so" CDs isn't that big of a deal. Do 10 here, 10 there. In a few days they are all ripped.

    • Re:Here is the bit I don't quite get... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Propagandhi ( 570791 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:47PM (#11077172) Journal
      I've managed to rip my entire (along with a few samplings from buddies, but don't tell the RIAA) music collection of about 300ish albums. It's much less time consuming than you apparently think.

      Cdex [sourceforge.net] or EAC [exactaudiocopy.de] are the two apps I'm most familiar with (stay away from MusicMatch, it's bloated beyond belief) and I'm sure someone else can offer even more options. Both of these programs will rip/encode (into FLAC, LAME MP3, or Ogg Vorbis)/tag in a single click of the mouse. As long as you've got a web connection they'll look up the tag information via CDDB and even set up your ripped files into a directory structure (artist/album/ or year/artist/album or ... well.. pretty much anything) to keep all those MP3's organized. Heck, even if that fails there are programs like The Godfather [softpedia.com] that can help you mass edit and identify those tags you forgot to get the first time..

      I don't know if it's any harder to transfer these files to an iPod than the AAC's you get off iTunes, but I haven't heard any complaints about it so I'm sure it's intuitive enough. Personally, I prefer my Rio Karma [digitalnetworksna.com] for its vorbis/flac support as well as gapless playback (even on MP3's, which don't natively support gapless playback).

      Heck, most players (not my Karma, but I digress) are recognized as external USB hard drives (via MSC, so they should even work on Linux) nowadays. All you have to do is drag and drop your MP3's onto the disk (possibly a specific directory, but still no big deal).

      Anyway, I'm rambling.. Bottom line is, ripping your CD collection is terribly easy, and with hard drive prices what they are, you really have no reason NOT to back up your collection (FLAC is best for archiving purposes, once again keeping in mind that storage is dirt cheap these days).
      • I was looking into getting a Karma, does it require Rio software to add music and offer *NO* usb hard drive functionality at all?
        • Yeah, you have to use either RMM or RMM Lite (a java based app, transfers and controls the Karma over the Ethernet port in the dock) to transfer/edit files. Also, if you want to transfer non-music files you have to use "Rio Taxi". Not much experience with it (since my Karma is full) so I have no idea how well it works.

          MSC support *was* promised in a future firmware update, but apparently making sure all of the RioDJ features work properly is taking some time (or it's been dropped, who knows).

          I like Rio
      • I don't know if it's any harder to transfer these files to an iPod than the AAC's you get off iTunes, but I haven't heard any complaints about it so I'm sure it's intuitive enough.

        It would work just fine. Once the music is ripped to MP3, drop it into your iTunes library and transfer it to the iPod from there.

        However, it would be quicker to use iTunes itself to rip your music into your choice of formats (AAC, MP3, AIFF, WAV, or Apple Lossless). iTunes will also grab the track info from CDDB and organi

  • control (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ezekiel683 ( 739858 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:23PM (#11076987)
    this is a prime example of how a product fails because of it trying to control the consumer.

    I just can't believe how this got past the door isn't market research meant to prevent really stupid products like this

    sony can make awesome electronic gear its just the donuts in head office and other depts shoot them selves in the foot

    • Re:control (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ScrewMaster ( 602015 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:49PM (#11077186)
      this is a prime example of how a product fails because of it trying to control the consumer.

      I might add that your comment also applies to music industry in general. The RIAA can point fingers in various directions as to why they aren't making the growth numbers to which they've become accustomed. But it's the same story ... they tried to tell their customer base what they can't do. You can't have decent playlists on radio stations anymore, you can't buy singles anymore, you can't copy discs ... you get the picture. That's not the way to make sales, you make sales by empowering your customers and giving them what they need or want, and you do it for the right price. That's just good business. Sony is making the same mistake here: you, the customer, will do what we tell you, play the files we tell you, and because we're Sony you will obey. Phooey on them. If they keep that up all they'll have left is their media business and Playstations. Maybe that's all they want.

  • Reason for purchase? (Score:5, Informative)

    by rjstanford ( 69735 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:24PM (#11077001) Homepage Journal
    Quoth the article:

    The thing I like best about the iPod is the UI ... the thing that really bothered me about the iPod was the lack of bass
    Hmm. The iPod puts out fairly accurate low end when its hooked up to a stereo. Sounds to me like mavis had a problem with the headphones and decided to fix it in a rather too drastic manner. Ah, the curse of the early adopter who is influenced by the lure of the shiny new toy.

    The poster does mention trying new headphones with the iPod (near the end of the "review"), but fails to say if they made a difference. The implication is that they didn't. Maybe this is because the iPod is missing a simple "bass boost" button (something which is far from lacking, between equalization and the desire for many people to listen to music without significant alterations)? Then again, this was written by a self-proclaimed bass-head non-audiophile...

    I'm not really sure how to end this, in terms of recommending the HD3 or not - I guess you can come to your own conclusion based (in part) on what my experience has been. I will say this though - if there was a way I could return this thing, I'd do it in a second ... I feel like I wasted my money
    Hmm. Sounds like a pretty solid vote for "not recommended" to me...

    • Re:Reason for purchase? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by greg1104 ( 461138 ) <gsmith@gregsmith.com> on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:42PM (#11077132) Homepage
      The guy running this site is going to hate me for doing this, but: you can see frequency response graphs of the various iPod EQ settings at:

      http://www.modeemi.fi/~vesas/iPod_Audio.pdf

      iPod settings like "Bass Booster" increase the level at 20Hz by up to 6dB relative to the midrange. In practice, with even remotely accurate headphones this amount of EQ makes for incredibly overblown bass. I question whether anyone who finds this insufficient is qualified to make an audio quality judgement about anything.

      I personally find the "Electronic" setting on the iPod to be the only useful one that boosts the low bass a bit without totally destroying the music you're listening to. It's about a +/-1.5dB countouring emphasising low frequencies while cutting back around 300Hz and 7KHz where a lot of headphones (and MP3 files!) are a bit rough anyway.
      • What sort of load was the iPod seeing when those graphs were made? Frequency response into a high impedance input wouldn't be the same as frequency response into some fairly low impedance portable headphones.

        For example the output of the Archos Jukebox 6000 had overly small capacitors which limited bass. There is a mod [comcast.net] that fixes this.

    • The iPod puts out fairly accurate low end when its hooked up to a stereo.

      Yeah, but he was complaining about the iPod not having the power to drive his headphones, not his stereo (in which case it would be docked). Many an audiophile would agree that those preset "equalizer" settings aren't nearly precise enough to properly drive a larger set of Cans..

      In fact, here's a graph [dapreview.net] that shows the problems that low impedance headphones can have when driven by an iPod (or similar DAP, in this case the iPod was us
    • I've owned about 10 portable CD players and a MiniDisc player and the iPod kicks all their asses for sound quality. Even the top of the line Sony Discmans over the years can't compare. Also, in terms of the output, I think it's probably higher than the average which makes it great for better headphones. I have some excellent Beyerdynamic DT531s which it drives wonderfully. In fact, a number of hi-fi reviewers have taken to using the iPod in show demos.

  • Sigh... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by gmacek ( 56790 )
    So my original story sent over a week ago about this new player wasn't good enough? Had to wait for a post that made Sony sound like it sucks, eh? Seems like the typical /. way... oh well. FWIW, someone else on that thread got the HD3 and didn't notice and hiss issues with the device. I'm still looking forward to its release here in the states.

    Granted, the 2100 song transfer was all mp3's, which is likely being wrapped in some DRM on the device and not the native ATRAC3plus format. Regardless, I agree that

    • Re:Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Elwood P Dowd ( 16933 ) <judgmentalist@gmail.com> on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:44PM (#11077153) Journal
      But then again, how often does one swap out that many songs on and off a DAP?

      Every time I go to a friend's house.
    • But then again, how often does one swap out that many songs on and off a DAP?
      I have 70 GB of music of my own (~40% legitimate if you care) and considering something like a 40GB iPod is out my range (but the 20GB isn't), and then considering that my mom or sister will want some of their stuff on it if we are travelling... I'd say about once a week on average.
    • What are you talking about? Have you actually owned one of these devices? I had the second generation device, only ATRAC and I have to say it was absolutly shitful. The software absolutly sucked and it would have taken litterly days to convert 20gb of music for it. The only thing it had going for it was a uberleet 30 hour battery time (which was actually spot on).

      I had it for a week before returning it and getting an Ipod.

  • Not mentioned in review or post... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:28PM (#11077034)
    If you read the comments at the bottom of the review page, you will notice that the reviewer has determined that he has a defective unit, which would account for the bad output quality.

    Of course this still doesn't excuse sony's production of such an obviously crippled device. It has great potential, but will never work so long as sony is also a record company.

  • I want to get one [nextway.co.kr] but it's just expensive enough that I don't want to go in blind. Haven't seen any real reviews (resellers own [mp3way.co.uk] doesn't count).

  • Did he actually get... (Score:5, Funny)

    by gordgekko ( 574109 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:30PM (#11077052) Homepage
    Unfortunately it can't remember where you last were located when browsing, you can't list all the songs by an artist, 1.5 hours to transfer 2100 songs (instead of the iPod's 15 minutes) and a wall of noise in the output. Final conclusion? 'If there was a way I could return this thing, I'd do it in a second.' So close, yet so far."

    I wonder if the reviewer made an honest mistake and actually received a genuine Sorny product. Anyway, I would have went with a Panaphonics.

  • minidisc much worse than sony's hdds. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Man in Spandex ( 775950 ) <prsn DOT kev AT gmail DOT com> on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:32PM (#11077063)
    I originally acquired a minidisc for one main reason: Battery Life. It would last around 50 hours on a single AA and that was the only thing I cared a year ago. Eventually I discovered all the issues with the technologies involved into this portable media.

    Minidiscs (Net-MD and HI-MD) do have many issues such as:
    - ATRAC only.
    Compress your compressed mp3s into Atrac. Noticable Quality Loss. If you want to preserve the quality, then record LIVE (SP-Mode) like a cassette but do we really have time to do that?
    Compress = lose time = quality loss = why?!?
    - Cheap built quality.
    Sony tends to make the higher-priced models built to last longer using material like magnesium unlike plastic of the lower-end models. It makes some sense I guess since it costs more but for a company like Sony, the company who ruled in the era of Walkmans (god those things were solid), I find it sad how the tables have turned. Walkmans used to take major beatings and they'd still function.
    - slow transfer.
    because of conversion and because it doesn't mearly use the potential of usb 2.0. Very abysmal on NET-Md's. On HI-Md's, they try to impress you with "100X" when in fact that's 500kb/s of burning speed.

    I'm glad that Sony at least understood that it will take mp3 playback capability to at least compete in the market of portable audio players but they are already behind, way behind in the western countries and have a long way. They have to improve the software these players use (SonicStage has a horrible interface and barely enough features) and built quality of these players.

    I'l sum this up by saying that I just wish Sony could build their future players like they used to with the Walkmans: Built to last.
    • Walkmans used to take major beatings and they'd still function.

      They did?! All it took was 1 trip to the beach to ruin a perfectly fine Sony walkman.

    • Re:minidisc much worse than sony's hdds. (Score:4, Funny)

      by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:59PM (#11077251) Journal
      I'l sum this up by saying that I just wish Sony could build their future players like they used to with the Walkmans: Built to last.

      I had a really nifty Walkman my old man got straight from Sony in Japan when he toured their facility for some big B2B deal.

      It was no bigger than a cassette tape holder, had built in retractable headphones, one touch fforward and rewind.. Really really slick and packed with features. As high-end a portable product as Sony made at the time.

      And it broke into a million pieces when it fell out of my hand into my lap. My lap, not the hard floor, it fell about 8 inches and landed in my lap and fell apart.

      Built to last my ass. The two dollar knockoff walkman I got at radio shack ran circles around that high-end piece of shit.
    • I bought an older "higher end" MZ-G750 on ebay a couple of years ago, for the purpose of doing some live recording (which I never did.) This model only has analog and optical "real time" recording.

      While I have to agree that not being able to get data back off the player and the wait time while recording sucks, I have to say it has been the most reliable thing ever. Once I record a CD to MiniDisc in LP1 format, it's there, and I can't tell the difference from source CD no matter how hard I listen. Also, t

  • Apple's Edge (Score:5, Insightful)

    by saddino ( 183491 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:35PM (#11077088)
    The post mortems of this and other so-called "iPod Killers" are beginning to expose the difficulty of creating:
    1) a sleek, feature rich MP3 player;
    2) sleek, intuitive software to run on the player; and
    3) sleek, intuitive software to interface with it.

    (and optionally a sleek music store to interface with it)

    For those who belittle Apple's achievement or dismiss their market success as "clever marketing," the failure of Sony and others to basically get their engineering shit in order should be more than telling: apparently, creating a great MP3 player really is hard.
    • The Difference though is in the company's not the products.

      in Apple a great idea is looked at from all angles, comprise is very little as only the best is done.

      I highly don't Sony's employee's are that motivated.

      Also note the time it takes to transfer files. Firewire to usb?

    • Re:Apple's Edge (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Propagandhi ( 570791 )
      Couldn't help but notice your use of "sleek" in each of your little points. Sleekness is all the iPod has going for it, IMHO.

      1) Poor battery life
      2) Poor format support (Vorbis? FLAC?)
      3) Poor playback (no EQ, no Gapless playback)
      4) Poor feature set (No FM, no voice recorder, nothing that sets it apart features-whys)
      5) Still more expensive than most other players

      It's a fine player for your average music listener, but it's hardly the geeky plaything a DAP can (and IM(Geeky)O should :) ) be.
      • Don't forget, it doesn't run Linux. That's -5 right there.

        Oh wait...

        http://www.ipodlinux.org/index.php/Main_Page

      • Re:Apple's Edge (Score:3, Insightful)

        by the pickle ( 261584 )
        1) Eight hours (first-gen) to 12 hours (current) is hardly "poor." If it gets people through their day -- which it does -- it's good enough. Sure, only having to charge it every other day would be nicer, but MOST people simply don't need 12 hours of battery life.

        2) Again, how many people -- Slashdotters excluded -- do you know who give a rat's asshole about Ogg or FLAC? Thought so.

        3) No EQ? WTF? It has EQ. Did you not see the "EQ" part of the settings? Gapless playback I'll give you, though.

        4) FM, eh, wh

  • An iPod Convert (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Omega1045 ( 584264 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:49PM (#11077183)
    When the first iPod came out, I was not a fan.

    "Oh, here is another over priced piece of Apple crap", I thought. And that time, I might have been right. I am not an Apple fan by nature.

    I bought a 20 GB player from another company, and liked it well enough.

    Earlier this year, I had the chance to get $100 off one of the new 4th gneration iPods. I decided on the 20 Gb to replace the brick that was my MP3 player.

    I have never looked back.

    My iPod is easily the best gadget (or maybe even technology item, period) that I have ever purchased. I love it. My life is now filled with music and audio books.

    What I really don't get is how a company like Sony can fall on its face over, and over, and over. Seriously, can't Sony, f@cking Sony, figure out how to make a cool gadget to compete with iPod? Seriously, nothing I have tickered with at WorstBuy (tm) or CircuitCrapy (tm) from Sony even comes close to the ease of use and pure coolness that I have with my iPod.

    As a software developer, I really don't get how a company that is often on or ahead of the curve like Sony and continue to f@ck it up!

    Apple is in strange territory. Many times the first to market is also to far ahead of the market that they fail. This is not the case with the iPod, and Sony needs a huge shift in engineering and attitude if they want to even attempt to catch up.

    • Re:An iPod Convert (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ickoonite ( 639305 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:40PM (#11077582) Homepage
      My thoughts exactly.

      Seriously, can it really be that hard? Elsewhere some people have so suggested, but honestly? Really? Are Apple that clever?

      It staggers me that Sony have taken this long to come out with something, and when they do, it is virtually insulting. This product is, quite frankly, turd. (I speak from experience - I had the misfortune of tryin to use one in Japan in a shop - I failed dismally.)

      Sony rocked the world with the Walkman. Now they're getting their asses whipped by the likes of Creative, iRiver and so on.

      It truly is absurd.

      iqu 8s

      (To the parent: next, get an Apple laptop. You can get more of that warm fuzzy feeling - that completeness - that your iPod gives you. I bought an iPod, then made the switch, and have never looked back.)

    • Re:An iPod Convert (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Seriously, nothing I have tickered with at WorstBuy (tm) or CircuitCrapy (tm)

      CircuitShitty (tm), surely?
    • Sony's problem is twofold:

      (1) They want to control the file format. Not-invented-here syndrome. Like Adobe, they're very technologically arrogant. At one time, this was a motivational tool for Sony managers to use with their engineers; now, it's outmoded B.S outside of the PlayStation and televisions.

      (2) They own a large amount of content (Sony Records/Sony Pictures), so they want to institute DRM -- remember that Sony was originally a champion of fair use with the Betamax, successfully going to the Supre

  • Why Can't Sony Compete? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Goo.cc ( 687626 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @07:50PM (#11077198)
    I personally believe that Sony's dual role of hardware manufacturer and record lable are at odds with one another. (Indeed, you have to wonder if the famed Betamax case would have ever been filed in today's world.)

    • Re:Why Can't Sony Compete? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by imroy ( 755 )

      I think you might be onto something there. I wonder how much pressure there is from Sony Music, and the rest of the RIAA behemoth, on the rest of Sony to cripple anything dealing with digital music/audio. Making a portable digital music player these days that doesn't play MP3, WMA, or AAC and forcing their own crappy proprietary DRM'ed codec on people is just plain dumb.

      The RIAA is really a bunch of dinosaurs and I derive great satisfaction from watching non-music-industry companies (and the Open Source

  • it's the naming convention, stupid (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jeffehobbs ( 419930 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:03PM (#11077285) Homepage

    Ah, the NW-HD3; so easy to remember. I can hear it now:

    "Mom and Dad, I really really want a Sony NW-HD3 this holiday season!"

    Never mind sending Mom and Dad to the mall with that kind of information just invites holiday disappointment. The real problem is that Sony makes ten trillion different pieces of consumer electronics, all of which are named just as idiotically. KD-36XS955, HDR-FX1, DSC-F828 -- these are all real products I pulled off the Sony website. Do you have any clue what they are?

    Contrast this with the branding Apple pulled off after Jobs returned: they went from having a confusing line of Performa 5200s, Performa 6300s, PowerMac 7200s, Powermac 8500s, PowerBook 1800s (etc. etc. the list goes on) to having three easily explainable product lines: iMacs, PowerMacs and PowerBooks and now iBooks and iPods. Easy. "Mom and Dad, I want an iPod". Done.

    Granted this creates another set of problems (for tech support and repair shops especially) but overall the effect dramatically reduces consumer confusion dramatically. Why can't Sony and other electronics manufacturers learn from this lesson?

    ~jeff

    • Re:it's the naming convention, stupid (Score:5, Interesting)

      by angle_slam ( 623817 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:40PM (#11077574)
      KD-36XS955, HDR-FX1, DSC-F828 -- these are all real products I pulled off the Sony website. Do you have any clue what they are?

      Without looking, I know the DSC-F828 is a camera. I would guess that the KD-36XS955 is a TV (with the 36 indicating screen size.)

      With cars, the opposite of what you noted is true. Honda used to name its Acura line of cars with names (Integra, Legend, Vigor, etc.). Their marketing experts didn't like that. They realized that buyers of high-end autos refer to the cars by brand, not by model, because the model was a series of numbers. I.e., a person buys a BMW or a Mercedes, not a 540iL or a E320 4Matic. But Acuras buyers refer to their cars as an Integra or a Legend, not as an Acura. To build brand identity, they changed the naming to initials (RSX, TSX, etc.). The goal is to get people to say they bought an "Acura," instead of a Legend, without reference to the manufacturer.

      Chevrolet has the opposite problem with the Corvette. Chevrolet is known as a budget brand, but the Corvette is a $40+k sports car. So they minimize use of the name Chevrolet with the word Corvette.

    • Sony also makes quite a few more products then Apple.

  • I dont know (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kanasta ( 70274 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:11PM (#11077350)
    Sony's hardware has fallen short of claims so much that when I see this I just think 'here they go again'

    It's always the software portion. First it was the customized software drivers on their PCs which did less than the generic drivers. Then there was the net MD crap they forgot to tell you they had to convert all the files to atrac on your HD first and that up to 64X speed meant everyone got around 1.3X speed. Then their memorystick format didn't support sizes over 256mb - hence the 'pro' version. Funny NO OTHER flash format needed any upgrades from the first 8MB card to the 4GB cards.

  • How could this biased article be posted? (Score:5, Informative)

    by cmacmanus ( 713176 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:17PM (#11077406) Homepage
    His device was defective. There is no background hiss with this device, but unfortunately, most people will not see my comment and believe the aforementioned review. It's truly idiotic how the internet can be at times..
    • If you actually READ the linked thread within the forum [head-fi], you'll see that another HD3 user discovers this. Additionally, he's using Japanese software on a English operating system! And you expect a real review? I can't believe this horrid review is being spread on the internet.

    • Who cares about hiss, can you browse by artist? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:52PM (#11077666)
      It was pretty obivious a "wall of noise" would have to be a hardware defect, Sony would not send out a product like that - and lots of people seem to be picking up on this so you can renew your faith in ther internet.

      However - is it accurate you cannot browse by artist? That to me would be enough to disregard it. I use all of the browsing modes on the iPod and wouldn't be happy to loose any of them - to produce a new product without this feature seems insane to me.

    • Re:How could this biased article be posted? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Calroth ( 310516 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @08:58PM (#11077724)
      His device was defective. There is no background hiss with this device...

      What kind of headphones do you have?

      In my experience, the more sensitive your headphones, the more you'll pick up the background hiss. Standard earbuds won't get it at all. I have a set of Sony in-ear headphones, the same as the reviewer had, and get slight hiss from the electronics on my Dell. I also have a set of Audio-Technica headphones (one step up from consumer-grade), and on the same output, the hiss from my Dell drives me nuts.

      Reviewer was using Shure E5c headphones, which are sensitive. So it's possible that he hears things you don't.

      Or maybe he got a dodgy device.

    • Re:How could this biased article be posted? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by sahonen ( 680948 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @10:13PM (#11078239) Homepage Journal
      The E5 earbuds he was using are extremely sensitive, 122 dB SPL/mW. Most headphones are down in the 80 range. As a result, any noise in the electronics will be audible.
    • You must be new here.
    • His device was defective. There is no background hiss with this device, but unfortunately, most people will not see my comment and believe the aforementioned review. It's truly idiotic how the internet can be at times..

      Ignoring the fact that Sony get what they deserve for shipping a duff device, it is worth pointing out that a lot of the issues he noted would be still around on a "non-defective" device.

      Admitidally the wall of sound issue looks to be a device one, however he was using good quality earpho

  • Can I call for a ban on the use of LOL in reviews? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by spoco2 ( 322835 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @09:52PM (#11078072)
    I mean come on... I HATE 'lol' as a damn abbreviation. I can't help but say it in my head when I read it and MAN it's annoying when it's used in writings...

    So can I ask for a ban for any review that even thinks about containing 'lol' within it? This one does, has been shown to be a bad review of a defective product, and I think that speaks volumes of someone who would use 'lol' within a piece.

  • The addendum may not be correct... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Vaystrem ( 761 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @10:24PM (#11078312)
    "The reviewer discovers that the unit he had is defective as someone else employs one and there is no hiss issue. Furthermore, the software woes he experienced are related to him employing JAPANESE software on an English operating system. Sonicstage 2.3, which he needs to use the unit, is now available in English."

    The original reviewer is employing much higher quality headphones (Shure) than the person who states that he encounters no hiss at all. As well the person in the headfi thread who responds that he has no issues has a different model.

    This can mean several things:
    1) That the model is particularly sensitive to power line noise.
    2) That the better headphones are more sensitive to noise within unit than the lower quality headphones employed within by the other individual.
    3) That the model is actually defective.

    It does not mean the model 'isn't defective. But the reasons presented within the thread to not 'prove' the model is defective.

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